Cross-dressing is Gross? WTF

[Greenie]

Good morning all!

I have been vacant lately. Luca and I's job and life are going swell, so no worries there. Just more of a busy thing. But we had an interesting weekend and wanted to ask you all some opionions.

We went camping with Luca's family this last weekend. His brother and sister in law know about his CDing. But the rest of the family does not. His older brother (who knows) and I were talking about gender identity, gender stereotyping and transgenderism. The conversation was going really well. It all started with that I thought it was strange that in the middle of NO WHERE a camp site that took a 2 hour drive to get to, that there were still male/female signs on the outhouses. Really? One male outhouse and one female out house? You are in the middle of the woods, do you really need to designate one as male and female. They are the same stinky hole in the ground? The worse part was that one of my brother in laws didn't want to use the one with the women sign on it. I told them that the bathrooms were exactly the same, I had used both, the "womens" outhouse didn't have glitter and rainbows in it. After this comment and other comments from the younger brother about how he didn't want the "pink" glo stick. I was getting frustrated with the idea that even in our family people were behaving like this.

The older brother and I then started talking about how our society pushes us towards a binary gender, even though gender is a spectrum. He is scientifically minded, and we were having a really good conversation. I was trying to keep our conversation away from luca being a CDer. The odler brothers wife, was trying to get us to stop talking about it, because she was worried that in our sciientific talk about gender that the others would "pick up the scent" or put two and two together. I can be passionate about this without it being apparent that Luca is a CDer. But haha. Yeah.. Okay

Thanks to all you I now know ALOT more about gender and sexuality than I would be willing to say to luca's whole family. I then started talking about my friend bret who is a female to male, and the frustration he feels when he needs to use the womens bathroom. He doesn't pass. I watched him sit and debate outside a bathroom before choosing one time. Its hard because his family, still calls him her. Uses his birth name, and is just downright unwilling to believe that SHE could be HE. Luca's older brother then starts to tell me that we are in a much more accepting climate and that look at how far the gays have come. I explain to him that being gay and transgender are not the same. that people who fall under the transgender spectrum, have a lot longer and harder road to acceptance. And that being gay in a lot of places is still "not okay". (definitely not to luca's parents. They made a comment that as long as thier kids weren't gay.....) While we are talking about this, I bring up that the world is just not ready to understand that a man could be a woman, a woman could be a man, and the even stranger conundrum, that there is SOMETHING IN BETWEEN!

Important part of this long drawn out story. This is when luca's little brother says. "I'm sorry, but that is just gross and I do not believe in that"

A 17 year old. The generation that is supposed to be the most open minded who will help launch us into the future. Luca got up and walked away because he couldn't hear his little brothers opinion on the matter.

I then explained to him that gender is not black and white. Whether or not he "believes in it" doesn't mean that it doesnt exist. That we are talking about FACTS and actual real people that exist, not a choice or something that needs to be believed in.

I talk to him about the science behind gender. We talk about DNA and chromosomes, and how there are people who are born with both genetics. How parents will CHOSE which way to raise their children. Or that how just because you have all male genitalia, does not mean that your BRAIN thinks its all male. I could tell he was kind of listening but also not really caring. He felt like an idiot for his stupid ass beliefs. But that doesn't mean that he changed them.

Luca and I talked about how sad this was in our tent that night. Even the family that knows I don't think will ever fully understand. I wonder if they think that luca is just weird. Or like a sexual deviant or something. I don't think they understand that he is under the transgender spectrum. That he doesn't just want to wear female clothes because he is the "weird one."

It would be nice if every one could know. But in the bigotry that is Luca's family.... Its just never going to happen.

Anyone ever have a similar pre-out of closet reaction about any of this from a family member? What do you think of what happened here? And and all thoughts related to this matter, your own matter, are welcome. :)

Transgenderism is Gross. WTF is wrong with this world.

XOXO
Greenie

[PaulaQ]

There's still a lot of hate and misunderstanding about us in the world. We are about where the gays were 30 years ago. I suspect that at some point, there's going to be an awful backlash against our current spate of positive media coverage and openness. This fight ain't over yet.

[Tracii G]

We need to press on with our lives and maybe just maybe we will help move the education forward.

[Katey888]

Thank you for sharing that Greenie - it's really insightful to see how people react to these discussions and little bits of knowledge... I'm sorry you didn't receive a more understanding and sensitive response, but I suspect it probably wasn't so different from what a lot of muggles would think...

Education will help... but education alone did not help the LGB part of our world, nor will it be enough for us... Legislation will be necessary as well, and has effectively suppressed a lot of the bigotry that would otherwise be directed at the LGB community. But it's still there... lurking...

Sadly, it's a good example of why I just feel I want to slink back into the closet a bit further... But I hope you enjoyed your camping despite the upsetting conversation... Maybe just stick to singing raucous campfire songs next time... :hugs:

Katey x

[Hermana]

It is so sad that intolerant people would rather put us down instead of following our own example.
What we do: we seek out people who are like us and we get along with each other, and more tellingly, we also quietly respect the rights of anybody else who is tolerant and who simply wishes for the quiet enjoyment of the life they have chosen. Which surely has to be (or ought to be) an acknowledged right of all who are on the homo sapiens spectrum.

I wonder how many more millenia it will need to be said: Just because someone lives their life differently, it doesn't mean they are bad, it just means they are different.

You know, the day everybody in this world becomes the same, that's when I'm getting off it. Could you imagine any greater boredom?

I still remember a time when I was 18 years old when I made an innocent (to me) comment in the context of a group of lonely all-male teenagers, "What a pity we aren't all homos" (homo = old colloquialism for gay). To me it was perfectly logical, if we were all so desperate for love, and there were only males around, where was the fallacy? But gee I got verbally slammed. BTW, that group, including me, were all straight. And yet I still say the logic was impeccable...

I used to say to people who deliberately tried to annoy me for being the harmless person I was/am, "Why are you intolerant of those who choose to live life differently and don't put down anybody else?"
Typically they would shoot back, "everybody is intolerant of something, so what are you intolerant of?"
"Nothing."
"No, everybody HAS to be intolerant of something, so what is it?"
Oh all right then. I am intolerant of intolerance. I think we should stamp it out."
Funny how their conversation would splutter to a halt.

Greenie, your post triggered a longheld passionate belief of mine, that we should ALL just live and let live. I continue to be astonished at how difficult that appears to be for some people to live by. I hope for a wider understanding from your greater family.

Love

[sometimes_miss]

I think that your experience with your in-laws is probably pretty typical of society in general. Sure, there are some who accept the whole transgender spectrum of people, but most do not. They simply don't talk about it, which leads a lot of people (here especially) to misunderstand that for tolerance or acceptance. It's not. The last time I seriously searched out information on how society feels about crossdressing males was quite a while ago (years), and it was an alarming discovery, that so many people really don't like us. At the time, I was in therapy with my ex wife, trying to resolve all this, going to a gender friendly therapist. I got to talk to other crossdressers there; in the waiting room, at the parties they threw for all the TG/TS patients there. Here's what I found (I don't remember the statistics for men, it was my interest to find out what women felt about us). Only 6% of women felt that male to female crossdressing was acceptable. Only 3% said they would be comfortable with a crossdresser in their life; friend, associate, or family. 1.5% would 'consider' a crossdresser as a possible mate. The fascinating thing was the percentages were exactly half each time. And when I discussed it with the other crossdressers, both in person and online, some of whom had come out to their mates, about half of those SO's again who initially thought that they could accept it, eventually could not. Again, the half. So try to keep that in mind. While perhaps there is more awareness of us, I don't really believe that acceptance is any higher than it was back then.
It also leaves us with only 0.75% of women for potential mates. So out of every 100 women you date, we have less than a 1% chance of coming across someone who will even consider us as a potential partner; and when you add in all the other compatibility variables, well, it's pretty clear that it's not a pretty picture.

[Hell on Heels]

Hell-o Greenie, I had something similar happen. Not with family, but at a neighborhood BBQ. There were a bunch of people sitting around a table and the surrounding area, many of these people I didn't know.
Somehow the topic of TS and TG came up. I was a bit worried,being a closeted CD, but I didn't notice anyone directing the conversation my way, so I just listened.
It started with people making jokes, and making comments of it being a gay thing. I'm sure you can picture the scene, and hear the comments.
Anyway a GG neighbor, who I know well, and is fairly well respected in the neighborhood spoke up. Everyone stopped talking, and listened as she explained the differences. I was impressed at her knowledge and thought she did a very good job at it. I could see people were actually getting an education.
As she finished everyone was kind of silent for a few seconds, and just one more joke came out from someone, and a others joined in again.
It was a bit of a let down, but I think a few of the people had a change of heart, and seeds were planted in others.
Some people will just never get it.
Much Love,
Kristyn

[Desirae]

I would venture to say that the acceptance by younger persons towards transgenders is of no greater percentage than that of the "older" population. Even if it is any greater, I bet it's a miniscule difference. I don't even believe in studies anymore. I think they're convoluted due to the fact that people lie. Yes, people lie. I think most people couldn't give a rat's a*s about surveys and studies. They often tell the taker what they think they want to here. I'm certain in my lifetime that there won't be any kind of mainstream acceptance of transgenders. I would say that even the very youngest on this forum will not see any kind of meaningful acceptance in their lifetimes, either. I would go out on a limb and say that even five generations hence will not see any meaningful acceptance from society. Talk to me when there is a transgender US president. Talk to me when there are at least 3 or 4 transgender members of the US Senate and Congress. Talk to me when there are transgenders in the topmost leadership positions of US companies. Then talk to me some more when that is occurring throughout the civilized world. Then maybe I'll change my assessment. Show me some real successes first and not just successes amongst small groups of family, friends, and acquaintances.

[Tinkerbell-GG]

Hey Greenie :) I think 17 year olds lack a filter! He'll learn to keep his opinions to himself when he's out in the RW and realises no one actually wants to hear them.

Meanwhile, I know a few members of both my H's family and mine would likely think it 'gross', too. I don't need to tell them to know this as they have made many a lame comment over the years about things unrelated to my H but equally depressing. We will never tell them either as what would be the point? They're well past age 17 and set in their bigoted ways.

You can still work with this boy as he's still young and impressional, so don't give up on him yet! And as someone who doesn't exactly love that my H is a CD, I can say you don't have to like something to understand and respect it.

[Teresa]

Greenie,
I don't think you've mentioned what Luca's family do ?
I know from my own experience that the farming community are down to earth, a spade is a spade to them ! Men are men and they don't wear dresses ! Why would you want to do that ? Funnily enough the women are far more vocal than the men on the subject !

Kristyn's comment about the conversation round the BBQ, always makes me think now that statistically in a group of people at least one of the guys has or will be wearing female clothes !

[Alice Torn]

Greenie. Thanks for the very informative thread! Sadly, all my family of origin, might grab torches and pitchforks, if they had a strong hunch i dress. And, also, the dear friends in the church i have known. They all call it perversion, deviancy, sin.

Sometimes Miss, Grim statistics, but from my experience with many single women, all too true, which means for some of us older bachelors, there is no hope to be married, while we crossdress.

[reb.femme]

My younger brother was quite happy to endorse an act of window smashing by a couple of a***holes because the recipient was a "tranny". I can never tell any of my siblings because they are all cut from the same cloth. It is painful to know that ultimately, you could be deemed not worthy of knowing, just because you like to present differently now and again, or always for that matter.

Anyway, we can only be gross in a CD group of 144. :heehee:

Luca has you and that is a big deal!

Rebecca

[ReluctantDebutant]

A person can hold an absolute opinion about a hypothetical one dimensional abstract person all day but when confronted with a very real multifaceted person, especially one that they know, particularly one that they are closely related to, the opinions tend to change. Your little brother-in-law says that he doesn't like CDing/transgenderism that isn't the same as saying he doesn't like CDers or the transgendered. It is a behavior that he disagrees with, not people. If his bond with your husband is strong now before he knows I am sure it will remain strong after. Your husband's family may never understand why he CDs but that's not important, not at all. What is important is that their love for him seems far stronger then any feelings of misgivings they may have towards cross-dressing. And that is important. Focus on that and be happy.

[NicoleScott]

Greenie, you may have done all you can do for now. Although you see no indication that your facts trumped his prejudices, it is possible that you did get to him but his pride won't let him admit it. In any case, you planted a seed.

[kimdl93]

A seventeen year old male may not be the most informed. Of course if he is like most males his age, he's quite unsure of his own sexuality and needlessly worried that there's something wrong with being curious or open minded about such subjects. But once he's grown up, he may be far more confident in his own orientations to gender and sexuality, and then a good deal less worried about how his opinions may be perceived.

[Beverley Sims]

Greenie,
The word gross has a different meaning to the younger ones and it is all embracing about something the don't want to hear.

It is not necessarily "disgusting or sickening".

[Marcelle]

Hi Greenie. Very interesting thread and it does speak volumes to how far we still need to go with education and acceptance . . . being a hopeful optimist I think we will get there some day.

WRT to Luca's younger brother I would not read too much into that. After all he is a 17 year old boy and he is just beginning to explore his own gender identity and sexuality. We take our cues from our contemporaries on how we act and 17 year old boys (I know I was one long ago) will act like other 17 year old boy who generally put on an act or say things to prove they are all manly and mature. He may have been trying to be add to the conversation (join the adults) but his lack of filter (common in young teens) may have spouted "that's gross" vice "I can kind of see why they do it but I don't agree or understand". I don't think this a true reflection of his beliefs but more an artefact of youth and exploration of his own masculinity and, anything that strikes against "being a dude" is going to seem weird to a 17 year old. Give him time and maturity and I bet it will change once he has lived a bit.

I find it funny about the outhouses. My wife and I camp a lot (back country) and the outhouse is only a box with a toilet seat in the middle of the woods . . . one hole, both genders :)

Hugs

Isha

[cdrachael]

I have had my ex (we get on well) after we split told her parents who are the strong religious kind that we aren't getting back to together as I like to dress in women's clothes and maybe gay. I was devastated that she told them considering they had such right winged views of her lesbian friend. But to their credit as they know me they still accept me for me. So maybe there is hope for other family members may accept because of the relationship.

[bridget thronton]

Is tough - i doubt either my inlaws or my brother would do well with me as CD (my wife and kids are fine with it)

[Greenie]

Thanks all for posting.

Its hard because lucas's dad and step mom are large bigots. He just has a family full of people who will never understand. I find no hope in trying to convince the older generations. They will believe what they believe. But hopefully we can get to little brother just to open his views of the world. At 17 I was the president of my highschools "Alliance" a place for LGBT kids to feel safe. That was the year one of our teachers came out as gay. I was doing so many more profound things at 17 than, Dude, thats gross and wrong and I just don't agree with it. So I guess based off of my own life experience, I find blaming being 17 for hate and bigotry a little unfair. But I see where you all are coming from.