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devida
06-28-2014, 11:23 AM
An Oppressed Minority

Like a number of other members of this forum I have been dismayed by some of the recent posts in which cross dressing men are being criticized for being cross dressers. I have also noticed that the immediate reaction of many members to a statement by a cross dressing man that they have purged their women’s clothes due to an ultimatum from their wives appears to be congratulatory. The cross dresser is praised for valuing his relationship over his wish to cross dress.The message appears to be that cross dressing is, after all, just a choice and confronted with a spouse who disapproves of course they should purge. Yet, over and over again, cross dressers return to cross dressing, hiding it from their wives, in guilt and shame. That doesn’t look like a choice to me. I also read posts from members who are clearly and clinically depressed by not being able to cross dress, some suicidally so. Some posts declare that cross dressing is a compulsion, but a compulsion like alcoholism that can be overcome with sufficient will power, prayer,and the support of others. Some posters even suggest modifying AA’s 12 Steps to deal with cross dressing.

I also notice that a number of members shun the label transgender, asserting that they are just cross dressers. I was curious about this since to me being transgender just means that a person expresses a gender other than that assigned to them at birth, and that this expression is important to them.

Yet some members, despite many repetitions of the generally accepted definition for transgender, continue to think that being transgender necessarily means transitioning from one gender to another. These members often proclaim their heterosexual masculinity. A man who presents himself as a woman will be considered by society in general and, in many areas, legally, as transgender.

Much of this behavior and many of these statements look awfully familiar to me. They look like the actions and words of a minority suffering social oppression. Let me suggest that cross dressing men are not really different than Blacks, Jews, brown people, Native Americans, Dalits in the Indian subcontinent, and until very recently (and still in a majority of the world) male and female homosexuals. Cross dressing men are an oppressed minority that in many cases have absorbed the oppression of the majority and internalized it into self-hatred.

Many cross dressers on this forum have expressed concerns that they are mentally defective and feel guilt and shame for cross dressing in exactly the same way gay men used to be thought of as having a mental disease and being morally defective. They were ashamed of being attracted to the same sex. In the American South before the Civil War runaway slaves were considered to have a mental disease because they sought freedom. In India today Dalit women are routinely raped by higher caste men and do not complain because of their feelings of personal shame. Even in the West a large number of women do not complain about rape and sexual abuse because of internalized self-hatred which manifests as shame and the feeling that it was, after all, their own fault. These are oppressed minorities. A feature of being a member of an oppressed minority is internalized oppression which manifests as guilt, shame, self-hatred and sometimes, the oppression of others exactly like you because you hate that part of yourself.

Before I am accused of appropriating the history of real oppressed minorities let me state that I am not just transgender but also a person of color. I am mixed race and consider myself a brown person. I have two mixed race children, one African American and white, one Native American and white. Like quite a few members of other minorities I can pass in some cultures as a member of the majority race. I am bisexual but assumed to be heterosexual. I understand at a personal level what minority oppression is and the psychological problems this oppression can cause.

So let me make a few assertions and pose a few questions.

I do not believe that for the majority of cross dressing males cross dressing is a choice or a curable compulsion. I believe it is a matter of gender identity, that is to say, a matter of identity in exactly the same way as being gay is a matter of sexual identity; or defining yourself as a black man when you are mixed race, as America’s president has done, is a matter of identity. Or defining yourself as brown when, like me, you are half white. It is who you are. It is who I am.

Of course this is not true in all cases. There are men who dress as women just for fun, as a prank, for a party, for Halloween. Sometimes these same men persecute transgender people for the same behavior. They are hardly any different than the white boys who in my childhood dressed up in black face to make fun of non-whites. But the majority of cross dressing males wear women’s clothes because wearing them asserts, if only to themselves, their real identity as cross dressing men. Perhaps they tell themselves that they only wear women’s clothes for sexual fetishistic purposes. Is this any different than the man who has sex with men but defines himself as being heterosexual because having sex with men doesn’t count and he mostly has sex with women? Of course not; that man is defined as bisexual. So fetishistic cross dressing is transgender activity quite as much as a man taking estrogen to transition to becoming female is transgender activity just as dressing at home by yourself and twirling in front of the mirror is a transgender activity.

Society in general does not understand what being transgender means, but more and more the institutions of society in the Western and developed world are affording legal protections to transgender people as a minority that needs to be protected against oppression. I would assert that even if you do not identify as transgender in those areas of the world where human rights have been extended to transgender people you would be considered transgender if you suffered oppression while you are cross dressing. In other words, you do not have to identify as transgender to be viewed by law and society as transgender. This is actually a good thing. It is, as Martin Luther King promised, the arc of history bending towards justice.

So, if you will accept my argument that cross dressers are an oppressed minority, how can anyone justify an ultimatum given by a spouse to her cross dressing husband that he cease cross dressing? Why, if cross dressing is his identity, should he give up an intrinsic part of himself? Isn’t the spouse just acting as an agent of oppression? Is the spouse any different than a racist policeman beating a Black man trying to vote; than a Ugandan judge sentencing a male homosexual to prison for his same sex attraction? Or any number of authority figures requiring oppressed minorities to submit to the status quo? Certainly you may accuse me of over dramatizing the victimhood of cross dressing men but isn’t this more a matter of degree than kind? Are not both the gang of tranny bashing boys and the wife demanding her husband stop dressing under threat of divorce differing only in the degree of their oppression?

Do spouses understand that when they demand compliance to an unjust social standard within the confines of a person’s home they are committing a human rights violation? When they blackmail their cross dressing husbands with the threat of expulsion from the family, with divorce, they are committing a deliberate injury against another human being?

I am certainly not saying that spouses can’t divorce their husbands or wives for any reason they choose. I am arguing that the threat of divorce is oppressive and that, worse, spouses are acting in the place of larger institutions of social oppression. In fact I think that a wife who cannot bear her husband’s cross dressing should leave him in exactly the same way that a wife whose husband declares he is gay and no longer finds her sexually attractive should leave (unless she is content with a companionate marriage). Or, to take another example, a race proud wife who discovers her husband is in fact mixed race when he had always presented himself as pure blooded should leave if this revelation makes her feel grossly uncomfortable. People change, have revelations about themselves, and become different from the people their spouses married. This is certainly cause for dissolution of the relationship. Demanding that someone reject their own identity as a prerequisite for continuing your relationship with them is, however, oppressive. That is true even if the recognition of identity is new in the relationship.

Am I wrong? If I am please do explain to me how cross dressing males are not an oppressed minority that, like other oppressed minorities, deserves protection and why that protection does not first and foremost start in their own families?

Thank you to all of you who read through this long and controversial post. To those of you who are offended by my assertions I hope you will consider them and argue with me about them. To me this topic is the elephant in the room. I really do believe this is something we need to discuss. I believe in the power of education and of reason. I believe that many spouses simply do not understand what a cross dressing man is, often because the man himself does not understand. Perhaps it is time we all start having this conversation, with ourselves, our loved ones, and society in general. What do you think?

PaulaQ
06-28-2014, 11:57 AM
Transgender people, especially transitioning / transitioned MtF's, are the most oppressed minority in the US at the moment. Crossdressing males certainly are an oppressed minority - but your ability to pass as heteronormative males gives most of you a way to avoid some or all of the oppression. Unlike those of us who transition, y'all can remain invisible - and that's one of your problems. Nobody knows how many of you there are - if they did, they'd be shocked.

If you want this to change, you are going to have to stand up for yourselves and come out. Those of us who transition have been fighting this fight for a long time. We are tiny in number though, and have many, many enemies.

You need to fight for your rights, if you want to have any. Those of us who are transsexuals are trying - but to be honest, I think there is a fair chance we will fail. Many of our recent advances in this country have happened via executive order, not laws or court rulings. A change in the leadership in the white house could easily erase most of those gains with a pen stroke.

Katey888
06-28-2014, 12:00 PM
Devida... :)

Thoughtful and thought provoking... so provocative rather than perhaps controversial...? (But we'll see what the members think... ;))

A well developed argument - I don't think you're wrong... so I agree, conceptually... just have to pick the right time for that final conversation... :thinking:

Katey x

Lorileah
06-28-2014, 12:27 PM
This could be interesting. Just a caveat, keep it civil people. If you don 't agree you can say that but be nice.

This has been debated before and although I would like to say we reached some sort of accord, we didn't. There are several subtexts in this. Natures Vs Nurture. The definition of Transgender (and I still say we have to agree on that before we can discuss anything else so that we have a common perspective to start) and the social state of if one should change their behavior to accommodate the other spouse (both directions)


Are we discriminated against? Yes. Is there a level of discrimination that varies within the community? Yes. How do we fix it? My opinion is the same as Paula's, you have to be seen and heard. We have to educate. You cannot do that from a closet. Will this happen? No. Do I expect that there will be this big epiphany and choirs will sing and tomorrow it will be all unicorns and rainbows. No. When this is over there all that will be left is unicorn poop and colored mud

carhill2mn
06-28-2014, 12:37 PM
I agree with your basic premise that crossdressing men are an "oppressed minority". For a long time I have had a problem with the fact that a wife can kick the husband out of the house that he is, most likely, paying for; especially when he has done nothing illegal nor has he broken his marriage vows. It seems as if the dreaded thing known as "society" has taken the position that the wife has been "wronged" thus, he should leave. When one of my CD friends was given this ultimatum by his wife he told her that he was staying and she could leave. She then decided it was better to stay. Unfortunately, many men have feeling of guilt and shame that affect their decisions.

I do not think much will change until society becomes better informed, much like what has had to happen with gays and other minorities. Fortunately, many of the younger generations are much more tolerant and understanding. However, the increase in the number off ultra conservative people will be a problem.

Confucius
06-28-2014, 02:03 PM
I am sorry that you feel CDs are so oppressed by their SOs. Of course the answer is simply to seek good counseling from a relationship coach.

I am not a relationship coach but i would want all husbands to understand that most wives only expect three things from their husbands: Love, Protect and Respect.
Love in 5 languages: Words of affirmation, Acts of service, Gifts, Quality time, and Physical touch.
Protect in 3 ways: Physical protection, Financial protection and Mental protection.
Respect: This is the hardest of all, and the one many husbands fail. It requires us to communicate and understand, It requires us to understand what is important to our wives. And to make her values - our values.

Most women need to be held and loved by a man. Women need to feel secure and protected by a man. Women need to love a man they can respect and honor.

As heterosexual cross-dressers we need to love and hold a woman. We want to have a good career, a raise a happy family, just like everyone else. We are active with our church and community just like anyone else. We find meaning and purpose in our lives by seeking truth, practicing love, and relishing beauty everywhere - just like everyone else. The only thing different between us and "normal" people is that cross-dressing makes us happy. We have a part of our personality, our identity, that will not go away. We can control our cross-dressing, but we cannot make it go away.

So the wife has her needs and the cross-dressing husband has needs too. Usually the wife tries to accept this part of her husband, but sometimes finds that it is just too much. She cannot see his female alter-ego and still respect and honor him as a man. At other times, the wife tries to accept his part of her husband but needs to set boundaries so that she can still have her needs met. She needs to feel that things are going to be okay, and they are being managed. She may still feels that her husband will go wild and escalate his cross-dressing beyond all tolerances. The husband needs to keep the lines of communication open, and earn her trust, and let her know that everything is under control. Usually both have to make compromises and ensure that they both feel respected.

Just my two cents.

Zooey
06-28-2014, 03:49 PM
I agree with you completely, in the context of society at large. When it comes to romantic relationships though...

Relationships aren't just about respect, politeness, rights, etc. though. Ultimately, there's an unquantifiable attraction/interest/"chemistry" component. Nobody has the right to oppress somebody else, but nobody has to stay in a relationship that doesn't do it for them either. Oppression, as I understand it, is largely inescapable - it is forced upon you, and you cannot walk away from it. Neither party in a relationship has to compromise more than they're willing to, and both are more or less free to leave. Obviously there are sometimes consequences to that, and people can choose to accept them or not. Still though, I don't think it's the same thing as societal oppression - I can walk away from a relationship. I will cry, it will hurt, but it will be done.

Deedee Skyblue
06-28-2014, 04:59 PM
Respect: This is the hardest of all, and the one many husbands fail. It requires us to communicate and understand, It requires us to understand what is important to our wives. And to make her values - our values.

I'm just cherry-picking your post, but your conclusion bugs me. What about my values? I would say 'And to merge our separate values to become - our shared values'.

Deedee

Heather25
06-28-2014, 06:16 PM
I'm just cherry-picking your post, but your conclusion bugs me. What about my values? I would say 'And to merge our separate values to become - our shared values'.

Deedee

Ding ding ding ding ding! This has been the subject of much soul searching and contemplative thought for me lately. My feeling is that popular society and media constantly tell men and women that she needs her values, needs and desires to be understood and attended to, and that is my job as the "man" in the relationship. I've been faithfully trying to adhere to that popular idea. Honestly it is a good idea. To be attuned to your partner as that is a crucial part of any relationship.

However I feel I've run into a couple of problems. One is I feel it has led to an unrealistic view that her values needs and desires are more important or more correct than mine.

Second, and perhaps the most important thought, is the question - while I'm concerning myself with what she needs, who's looking after me? And I'm not just talking about TG issues, but rather anything that is important to me. The answer is no one. No one was concerned about me.

For a while I was upset at other people about that. After all, I was trying hard to live up to my end, even if I wasn't always successful. Why wasn't I getting my return? And then all at once I got it. I had allowed myself to be run over, to have my own needs marginalized. I had allowed it to happen. Now the question it how do I dig my self out of this hole that I created? That is the truly hard question.

Both of us are important, and neither of us more so. The question is how to achieve a better balance in the face of overwhelming societal and popular media pressure to the contrary?

Stephanie Sometimes
06-28-2014, 06:46 PM
Very well stated Devida and I agree with your treatise. I do think that the tide is turning and CD's will gain more acceptance in the coming years in the same way that gay's have in recent times. Not total acceptance of course as there will always be prejudiced people, just look at the state of race relations over the last 50 years, but I think and hope that significant gains are in our future. Isn't it curious that CD's may be one of the last minorities groups to eek out some respect? I think maybe we are slightly ahead of atheists in the waiting line at the salad bar of equality even though there are a lot more atheists than likely CD's.
Hugs,
Stephane

Michelle789
06-28-2014, 06:48 PM
Devida,

I really like your post and couldn't agree more. I actually had a conversation with my therapist, who specializes in gender and sexology, about crossdressers. She believes, after working with hundreds of transsexuals and hundreds of crossdressers, that most CDers have a less progressed form of gender dysphoria than a transsexual does. A CDer does have some degree of a female identity and stands somewhere on the transgender spectrum. CDers aren't fully male identified who like to wear women's clothes, with few exceptions. Most have some degree of female identity. She agrees that many CDers deny being transgender or even say they're just men who like to dress as women, because

1. Society's overall stigma to being a CDer or a TG or TS
2. To keep the wife happy. If you are a wife of a CDer, you're number one fear is that you are going to lose the man that you married. She wants a man, not a woman. Although most CDers will never transition, this is the wife's biggest fear, that the CDing husband will transition, become a woman, and that she will lose her man.

We both agreed that lots of CDers stay in the closet and don't venture outside the house because of transphobia and the stigma of being TG and fear of being caught. It's possible that some CDers, and I can't say how many or even for sure, will have their GD progress to the point of being TS and transitioning, and even if it has progressed that far often don't transition due to fears of losing jobs, friends, families, and the wife.

My therapist also believes that autoeroticism is an expression of your true desires. If you engage in autoerotic fetish behavior, and you fantasize about being a woman, often having sex with a man, then you might very well have a partial or complete female identity, and possibly be attracted to men or at least a very masculine, butch woman.

Roxie
06-28-2014, 07:48 PM
Devida,
I pretty much agree with your post to many times you hear of s o throwing away someones clothes or threatened of a ruined life.Over wearing a dress? People do not or choose not to understand what being a cross dresser is about. Will these woman be happier with a male that drinks to much? slaps her around? This is how I drew the line on my last relationship if someone can't accept me, at least to some degree on CDing then there are more problems in the relationship that anyone wants to admit.
Realizing that some S O are not completely on board I can understand there side of it ,but having complete control of a relationship over what someone wants to wear is complete B S. .You can only live as yourself. I know that I never asked to be transgender when I was born,but it's who I am .
Roxie

Nyla F
06-28-2014, 08:49 PM
It sounds like there are 2 parts to your question. 1) Are cross dressing males a oppressed minority? 2) Should protection from this oppression extend to families?

The term oppression is commonly used in the context of social or institutional oppression. It is systematic mistreatment and exploitation. Certainly in this context mistreatment exists (although I don't know how we are exploited).

The second part puzzles me. Surely there are "family" systems and families can mistreat crossdressers. But when it comes to protection from oppression, those protections are mainly at an institutional level (such as laws protecting against discrimination). You can't legislate that your siblings must be nice to you or that your wife can't divorce you for being a crossdresser (although some laws protecting crossdressers from unjust divorce settlements would be nice).

So, in my opinion, the threat of divorce (on its own) cannot be considered oppression. Everyone deserves the right to choose who they marry or remain married to. A crossdresser that agrees to stop crossdressing in order to stay in the marriage must be doing so because it is in their best interest (otherwise they would accept the divorce).

However, if a spouse threatens to out the crossdresser so to cause them harm (like losing their job or friends), then I see that as blackmail which I think could be considered some kind of oppression (mistreatment and exploitation). I'd be interested in knowing if existing blackmail laws in the US have ever been applied to this kind of threat from a spouse.

ReluctantDebutant
06-28-2014, 10:51 PM
I think too many assumptions are going on about identity. The main one being that the CD/TG identity has to trump all others. Perhaps the CDers in question made a decision to consider themselves a husband over their CDing halves? People carry around many different identities, its just the burden of being a unique and multifaceted human being. The facets that allow us to bond with other humans are often strengthen over ones that don't, because people need people. So what is a CD/TG identity anyway? And why does it have to be the forefront for all of us?

"So fetishistic cross dressing is transgender activity quite as much as a man taking estrogen to transition to becoming female is transgender activity just as dressing at home by yourself and twirling in front of the mirror is a transgender activity."

This statement maybe technically true to a certain degree. Yes we all fall under the TG umbrella, but as a one who has engaged in fetishistic cross dressing I wouldn't say this describes who I am. A person going through transition might because this would more likely be at the center of their identity. For many causal dressers TG is no where near the center of life, so why bother adopting it as an identity?

So if cross-dressing is not that strong in a man or if the desire to be married is stronger then the desire to cross-dress it really wouldn't be that much for a CDing husband to sacrifice for a wife. If it was then why would he do it?

devida
06-29-2014, 09:08 AM
It sounds like there are 2 parts to your question. 1) Are cross dressing males a oppressed minority? 2) Should protection from this oppression extend to families?

The second part puzzles me. Surely there are "family" systems and families can mistreat crossdressers. But when it comes to protection from oppression, those protections are mainly at an institutional level (such as laws protecting against discrimination). You can't legislate that your siblings must be nice to you or that your wife can't divorce you for being a crossdresser (although some laws protecting crossdressers from unjust divorce settlements would be nice).

So, in my opinion, the threat of divorce (on its own) cannot be considered oppression. Everyone deserves the right to choose who they marry or remain married to. A crossdresser that agrees to stop crossdressing in order to stay in the marriage must be doing so because it is in their best interest (otherwise they would accept the divorce).

However, if a spouse threatens to out the crossdresser so to cause them harm (like losing their job or friends), then I see that as blackmail which I think could be considered some kind of oppression (mistreatment and exploitation). I'd be interested in knowing if existing blackmail laws in the US have ever been applied to this kind of threat from a spouse.

Thank you Nyla. I think I was being unclear.

I am saying that in the context of societal oppression of cross dressing males surely the man should be able to find sanctuary within the family, not have this oppression carried into the family by another member of the family.
An analogy might help. If you are a gay teenager being bullied at school over his homosexuality it would be a magnification of that cruelty to be attacked by your parents for your identity. Of course this happens all the
time but when it does the parents are supporting and continuing an unjust oppression that is essentially a social oppression within the very space, the family unit, where the child is meant to feel safe. In the same way
a cross dressing man who wants to have the freedom to dress in public but feels that he cannot is also being oppressed when his wife denies him the freedom to do this in the very space he should feel secure and safe.
This oppression is primarily a social oppression. The wife is acting as an agent of society. Again I am not saying the wife cannot determine boundaries of comfortability or decide to leave the marriage or perhaps
just the house. As you have no doubt read there are many many compromises that spouses make with their cross dressing mates when they feel uncomfortable with the behavior. I am focusing on only the threat
to dissolve the marriage if the cross dresser does not unilaterally cease cross dressing. I am saying this is equivalent to the parents of a gay child threatening him with expulsion from the home if he does not cease
being gay.

Of course I am a proponent and supporter of the doctrine that the home is inviolable and unless real harm is being done within the home no government has the right to legislate there. I am, for example,
absolutely opposed to the very widely used legal right of the government to invade homes with military weaponry and force simply because a resident is using illegal drugs.

But we can certainly agree to disagree over whether the threat of divorce to force a cross dressing husband to stop cross dressing is oppressive. Your argument that the husband may do this because
he believes it to be in his best interest is certainly valid. I would still maintain that the threat was oppressive.

devida
06-29-2014, 09:37 AM
Thank you, ReluctantDebutant, for your post on the importance of the degree of identifying as a cross dresser. I would agree to an extent. For example: I have friends who are Harley Davidson fanatics. They live to ride and ride only Harleys, usually without helmets. If a wife was to demand that the Harley riding husband cease riding under threat of divorce the husband might well consider this to be oppressive. His identity might be so bound up with being a Harley rider that he would end up very depressed if he was forced, by love for his wife, to completely give it up. If his wife, on the other hand, was to demand that he wear a helmet this could not be considered oppressive but rather the normal give and take of a relationship. Moreover the rider could probably be educated as to the danger of riding helmet less and, perhaps grudgingly, accept his wife's point. This is equivalent to a wife requiring her husband pull the curtains closed when he is dressed en femme so the neighbors do not see. The husband may not agree to the danger or may not care but he would probably accede to his wife's fears.

Identity is a curious matter. Identity based on sexuality, gender, race, tribe, family and perhaps nationality has a much deeper and more consequential importance to psychological health. The first three are issues deeply bound up with the way we look at ourselves alone and the last three have to do with the way we look at ourselves with others. Attacks on the first three cause psychological damage, on the last three social conflict and war.

So, you are absolutely correct that you do not need nor have any requirement to identify yourself as transgender if you are a fetishistic cross dresser and you do not feel this is more than a sensual hobby. Actually the idea that anyone must identify as anything unless we are discussing the usefulness of these identifications for social change is a fundamental misunderstanding of the way identity works. In other words identity works from the inside out, not the outside in (although there are ways to force identities on human beings - military boot camp being a good example).

But this is a separate matter from oppression. If I, like my son, was one quarter Apache and I experienced during my military career discrimination by senior officers because of my status as Native American even though I did not identify as Apache it would still be oppression, and an illegal discrimination at that. This, by the way, never happened to him, but you get the idea. You do not have to identify as an oppressed minority to be oppressed as a member of that minority. If you were refused a promotion at work because your boss was told by your wife that you engaged in fetishistic cross dressing you would surely be suffering discrimination.

But your point is well taken. If it really was of little importance to a cross dressing man to cross dress and he stopped doing it on the insistence of his wife then no big deal. For him. I could argue that it was still oppressive for the wife to insist but if everyone was happy why would I care? The CD/TG identity cannot trump all others because identity is a personal issue and as variable as there are human beings in the world. The cross dressers that I was thinking of, unfortunately, expressed considerable distress at being forced to stop cross dressing by their divorce threatening wives. I am sure you would agree that those circumstances meet the definition of oppression.

CarlaWestin
06-29-2014, 09:53 AM
Devida, thank you for your well thought out, simple, matter-of-fact post. I believe that everything you wrote stirs around in the subconscious of every alternative lifestyle person. I have known that I am just a broad spectrum gendered person ever since it dawned on me some thirty years ago, that my then therapist was just blabbering Freudian nonsense while trying to cure me of the unnecessary baggage of crossdressing.


Do spouses understand that when they demand compliance to an unjust social standard within the confines of a person’s home they are committing a human rights violation? When they blackmail their cross dressing husbands with the threat of expulsion from the family, with divorce, they are committing a deliberate injury against another human being?

So just yesterday, my wife came out to the patio with her morning coffee and there I was, doing pool maintenance wearing a nice orange one piece bathing suit with nicely fitting forms. Sunglasses and flip-flops. "What's this look supposed to be?" "I'm comfortable and this feels great." "That's it! I'm calling an attorney! You just don't get that I don't want to see that!"
Well, I know the big D thing is just nonsense. I've really already drawn my line in the sand that I have no problem just walking out and letting everything, job, house, cars just evaporate. So, I removed all of my clothes and just spent the entire day completely naked. It was actually pretty nice although I did get a little sunburned. I took a long afternoon nap and spent the evening watching netfllix with headphones. Towards evening she asked me if something was wrong. Really? She just got the look.

I'm certainly glad that transgender is under the protected human rights umbrella. I just wish the haters would get up to speed and mature to it. That's liable to take many more generations and the evil religions that people hold so dearly protected certainly don't help.

Teresa
06-29-2014, 09:54 AM
Devida I have to agree with your thread and on paper it works fine the problem is dealing with people that have other issues that cloud their judgement. The basic problem of just accepting labels, and the acceptance that women will never see it the same because they are wired differently. They can tolerate and hopefully accept but never fully understand, this is not said in a derogatory way against GGs .

kimdl93
06-29-2014, 10:16 AM
I agree TG people remain an oppressed and repressed minority. Part is societal and part self inflicted, don't you think? Many of us have lived our lives in a denial driven by self preservation, for sure. I think it's better. I really can't imagine that 20 years ago I could go out in my own Texas neighborhood without adverse repercussions. But maybe that reflects more of a change in me than in the people around me..or both.

As for relationships, tough to say. I do believe that many of the spousal objections are based in the understandable fear of the reactions from the outside world. Some are personal responses that reflect their preferences in a partner. Neither is repression, it's more a matter of individual rights. Her right to choose a partner that works for her, and conversely your right to want acceptance and support from your spouse. Sometimes these rights are simply un reconcilable. Sad, but true. Then you get to the point where each partner has to choose, decide what they are willing to accept as compromise. And as we know, no one entirely wins or entirely loses in a compromise, but hopefully each gets something they want or need and neither loses out entirely. It may be a zero sum game, or maybe a win-win, depending on the deal.

Beverley Sims
07-02-2014, 12:20 AM
Devida,
I see no argument, you have explained it well.