On the vexed issue of 'passing

[Danitgirl1]

Hi all
So, I have decidedly mixed feelings about 'passing'. I get that many (all?) of us want to look as good as possible, that we want to emphasise the feminine, reduce the masculine etc.
So yes, many of us want to 'pass' (for want of a better word)...
For me though the process, the journey, the 'being' is more important and satisfying than the end result. Sure I am happy when I am happy with the look achieved, but at the end of the day we are all 'dudes in a dress' so we will all at some point reach a wall. It is to be expected. i suppose all that varies is how far down the road that wall is.
This was never an issue for me as up until recently I was firmly and deeply in the closet. But I have told my wife and she loves the idea (so far) of me dressing... She has suggested we go out, together, dressed. And THIS has made me start to have to think about passing.
Having said all of that and with the knowledge that I have NEVER ventured out of closed doors and only a few people have seen me dressed.
I wonder, what is more important when it comes to successfully carrying off the illusion, is it more about how you look or how you behave?
Of course going out with 6 months beard growth will do no-one any good and some of us are luckier than others when it comes to musculature and skeletal structures. But assuming you have done the very best you can and are dressed 'appropriately', what in your opinion works best, the way you look or the way you behave?
Asking for a friend!
:-)

[Tina G]

The way I look is Important to me but i'm still trying to get over that hurdle where i care about what others who see me think. To answer your question if i have done my very best and dressed appropriately then it would be the way i behave because i can still be a blah looking woman and if i behave and have the mannerisms then i'm ok.


Tina

[Daisy41]

I agree that everyone has the desire to be more attractive and there's nothing wrong with this. But someone posed the idea of "passing" to actually be sort of toxic in a way. If someone reads you as a cross dressing male or transgender but was otherwise a decent person to you in all other regards, would that be so bad? I desire for people to accept me regardless of my gender presentation.


I wonder, what is more important when it comes to successfully carrying off the illusion, is it more about how you look or how you behave?

I wouldn't even call it an illusion for me. It's a common for so many here to separate the girl from the guy but I honestly don't understand why. When I'm out I blend rather well and I know I can pass for a girl if I tried hard enough, but really, it's so exhausting trying to be something I'm not. I do have some natural female mannerism but I keep some more "masculine" features on display: I walk around and mentally exude strength, I hold the door for people, I nod at other men because it's natural to me. I am a cross dresser, I am transgender, and I'm biologically male. If anyone reads any of these me then success! They read it right!

At any rate, to answer your question, in sure, it's important to act natural to yourself. Dress to a style that works for your personality. Don't go from "trying to hid the female side of me in male mode" to "trying to hide the male side of me in female mode". Hiding in general is just so exhausting.

[bridget thronton]

I think my goal is to do the best I can with what I have to work with - looking clean and healthy is more important than passing for for me any way

[BeckyAnderson]

Personally, I feel that passing as a woman for most guys is beyond the realm of possibility. Not that this has to be said but here are huge differences between male and female makeup (besides the obvious).....skeletal, muscular, vocal, body language and psychological, etc. That being said, I feel that too many of us spend entirely too much time trying "pass." Some times I wonder if the dislike of a crossdressers own ability to "pass" is really some other issue popping up to the surface. Quite frankly, I am a man who enjoys wearing woman's clothes, whether at home or out. I'm not trying to impress anyone. I'm not looking to have some guy pick me up. I simply enjoy dressing. I deeply feel that I do not have the ability or need to "pass." I focus on looking the best I can with what I was born with.

I truly feel that we all need to work towards acceptance for who we are and quit trying to be accepted for something we are not.

My two cents....
Becky

[MatildaJ.]

Would an actor be successful with just a costume on? Or acting with bravura but not in costume? It's a package.

If you want to pass, dress older than your age, and act sedate. Work on your voice, but don't speak much. Don't look for attention; older women are mostly ignored in our culture, and that would serve you well in trying to pass. Trying to get sexual attention, on the other hand, is likely to undermine the effect.

[Suzanne F]

I know that I will not pass all of the time. I try to blend in by wearing appropriate clothes. However , I hold my head high and own who I am. I will receive knowing looks while I am out, I acknowledge those people and smile. Yes I am transgendered and I am happy to be here! I think that attitude is the most important element that allows me to go anywhere I choose. I love being out in the world as Suzanne!
Hugs
Suzanne

[RADER]

I would never pass in a million years, just to big of s guy.
Now I have undre dressed for a few years now, usually a bra
only in the winter where a heave shirt will cover up the bra straps
quite well.
Now I have graduated to wearing a bra any time; Like today, I put on a
bra, and a com fee polo shirt and went out to the store and bank.
Nobody noticed me. Now will full dressing come next? Time will tell.
But I am getting braver every day.
Rader

[Daisy41]

To add the conversation, I will ask the tough question:

Is it easier to accept "not passing" if you're closer to passing? I remember when I started years ago the idea of passing seemed so far beyond my reach and I wanted it all that much more. Today I know I can pass and it's not that big of deal for me. But is it not a big deal because I stopped caring?

At any rate, I don't think the desire for passing in itself is so bad. I think the mindset behind it is what's bad. Having the desire to look like an attractive woman is ok, especially if you're doing things to make that happen in a healthy and legal way. My desire to pass went from "I want to look like this girl" to "I want to look like a female version of myself" to "I want to look more attractive in general". My mindset focused on ways to improve myself rather than obtain someone else's goal or standard.




Not that this has to be said but here are huge differences between male and female makeup (besides the obvious).....skeletal, muscular, vocal, body language and psychological, etc.

And this is where I sort of disagree. Male and female attributes run on a bell curve. You have the majorities that have certain attributes, but you'll always have a lot of outliers that will intermix the attributes. I've seen other people say how male and female make up is so vastly different but that confuses me. When I want to learn how to do make up in a certain way, I look up that topic, not for the male version. I learned how to contour from a woman, eye shadow from a woman, foundation from a woman. I learned beard coverage from a man.

On the topic of passing, though, I will say that I often will notice one tiny attribute about my appearance that makes me feel as if I don't pass. I look up "women with big arms" for example and I see lots of attractive women with arms that are even larger than my own. I think ultimately that the genders have a lot of intermixing of attributes in their bodies. This idea that "a man can never look like a woman" is dangerous in my opinion because all of a sudden you've drawn a line that says men and women not only "must" look a certain way but that there's nothing they can do to mitigate those things, which is absolutely not true. A-line skirts are suggested for women with small hips, v-necks are used to make a woman look like she has narrower shoulders, etc. The entire fashion industry revolves around ways to trick the eye into seeing something not there. It's not like certain clothing styles all of a sudden won't work because of what hormones run through your body.

[Alice Torn]

Daisy 41, A lot of interesting things you wrote! Very interesting! I learned from it. I dress as an older attractive super tall woman. I am 60. But, emotionally more like 15!

[Jaymees22]

Some days I feel like a nut some days I don't, some days I feel like I pass some days I don't. I think it has more to do with your attitude than appearance. If you feel that you look the part then you will succeed. Hugs Jaymee

[Wildaboutheels]

"but at the end of the day we are all 'dudes in a dress' so we will all at some point reach a wall."

WRONG! Many of us here are not trying to "pass" as women. I could point you to countless threads. I have no need for/have ever worn a dress in over 50 years of "dressing". Some here don't even like or wear high heels. THE Crossdressers Handbook is perfectly clear about high heels...

At any rate the real question is WHY do so many here think they can read minds/are mind readers? There are no documented cases of any Human being able to read minds and ALL CDers are Human.

No one can ever KNOW that they "passed". "Sharp" people may or may not notice but are highly likely to go on about their business without any comment at all or body language to let you know they busted you. YES, go out enough times to enough places and one is likely to run into a group of teenage girls. When in a group, they may very well giggle or laugh loud enough to make sure you hear them. It's relatively easy to cure them of this.

But I understand where you are coming from.

The ILLUSION...?

Despite any "convincing pics" you THINK you see here or anyplace else, I would wager that less than 1 in 100 MtFs are going to fool anyone over 5 years old that they have to interact with unless the situation involves simply sitting in a chair nodding one's head while the other person does all the talking. Obviously many can pull off "looking" or presenting as a female but the body language and voice would be difficult to pull off even for most accomplished actors.

Tell your "friend" It's not my opinion, it's FACT and well documented here over and over. Present/wear whatever you want or feel comfortable in but simply TREAT those you come into contact with right and you are likely to rarely if ever have a problem.

And IF one is going to worry about what MIGHT happen should you run into an UNsharp person? The world is full of them. One can run into one no matter how they are dressed.

One will never get their CDing diploma until they accept the FACT that they can't ever KNOW that they "passed" so it's silly to obsess over it. Of course it is OK and admirable for one to try to do their best but spending more time, money or effort to pass won't make one a "better" CDer.

"I can't/could never pass" is an awfully convenient excuse to stay closeted though.

[Jorja]

To pass or not to pass? Passing is better left to traffic on the highway. Don't worry about anyone else or what they think. If you are enjoying what you are doing then you should be pleased with yourself.

[Judith96a]

It depends what you mean by 'passing'. Will any male-identifying CDer be convincing (in terms of appearance, voice, mannerisms etc.) when subjected to close examination? With very few exceptions - very probably not. On the other hand, how often do any of us get subjected to close examination by anyone whose opinion actually matters?

My personal criterion is "is my presentation such that others' initial impression is 'woman' rather than 'man in drag'?" Anyone looking for longer than 30 seconds, or who hears me speak, isn't going to be fooled, so I just have to accept that and "own it".

Of course, "owning it" is much easier said than done!

We all worry too much. Have fun out there and be safe!

[Desirae]

I agree with Dani that at the end of the day, we're "all dudes in a dress". I don't presume to know what Dani was thinking when she said that, but I believe she only included the word "dress" in a metaphoric way. If she would have said we're "all dudes in female clothing", would that have been better? After all, we are.

I think most realistic CDers know whether they can pass or not. I don't think it takes a degree in Advanced Introspective of Oneself to know whether one can pass effectively for the opposite gender. I mean, do you think Lou Ferrigno could pass as a woman in any circumstance? Maybe at 300 yards. In the dark.

I disagree with Wild about whether people can know that they passed or not. Some looks and stares that one would get, along with giggles and chuckles, are simply not given to someone for no reason. I don't think you have to be privy to what's in someone's mind when you get a reaction like that. Sure, if you just get a casual glance from someone, you don't really know what they are thinking about you. Some cases are obvious, though. As Wild stated, the real question is, "does it matter?" Instead of trying to fool people that you are a genetic girl, why not just broadcast, proudly, that you are, indeed, CD? IMO, that's the pinnacle we need to reach.

[Stephanie47]

I was at the mall this past Saturday. I was walking behind three obvious females. I knew they were female without ever seeing them from a frontal view. Women are built differently because their pelvic bones need to deliver babies. Those three women were slender. They all had a waist and hips. They all had that 'jiggling' men love to see or at least I love to see. There is absolutely no way a man could ever recreate the walk of those lovely creatures. On the other hand there were many women at the mall whose bodies have been changed by age and poor diet and pretty much a lack of trying to stay in shape. Don't get me wrong, there is a multitude of men who are victims of the same mindset.

Several months ago I was at a local Wal-Mart walking behind an obvious cross dresser. I did not need to see him from the front to confirm my suspicions. His gait was not of a female. He lumbered along. He held his purse as if he was carrying a lunch pail home from a coal mine. He would have done better to have not worn high heel boots. His ankles caved in as he wobbled along. His shoulders were hunched over. I watched as shoppers approached from his front. Nobody gave him a second look. They did not care. He did was not passable. Did he believe he was passable? I don't know. It was obvious by being there that he wanted to be out en femme. More power to him.

I realize I will not pass. I am too tall, and, although slender for my height I still have a masculine frame. I have no desire to venture forth into the world. I am content to stay at home and in my back yard. However, I am conscious of my presentation. I try to walk in my heels as a woman will. I try to remember to smooth my dress when I sit. I try to remember to squat down to pick up something I dropped. I want the illusion for myself and not others.

I've thought many times about the cross dressing journey. I've pondered the question of why I progressed from just liking to wear my mom's nylon slips to wearing a bra, panty, slip, hosiery, heels, dress, wig and makeup. I wonder sometimes if I subconsciously think a man should not be wearing women's clothing, and, therefore, I should try to masquerade as a women to counteract the self loathing I felt as a teenage when I did wear my mom's attire. Better to look like a homely woman than a guy in a dress?

[Shelly Preston]

Wild, I disagree in part on what you said about mind reading. Not quite that but you can sometimes find out what people think. You dont have to read minds

Well If a guy is asking you out on a date do I just assume he is a CD admirer or If a female friend tells me one guy is talking about the red haired woman he met when he is back in the office. ( oh and he asked if I was available )

Dont get me wrong there are times when I know some have read me.

[AllieSF]

"...what in your opinion works best, the way you look or the way you behave?" I am not sure what you mean by behave, as in act correctly like little children, or with what mannerisms and maybe voice we present when dressed? Assuming the latter, to me it is a combination. I dress to blend, but am not afraid to stand out because when I like a certain look, I am not afraid of trying it on and then wearing it out. Wearing it out to interact with others. If one is trying to blend in/pass, then one needs to dress right and have the rest of the package, mannerisms and voice, so that at a distance they are not obviously male, and when close up our imitation of the real thing is close enough not to become the main distraction in any conversation that starts up.

[Richelle]

Dangitgirl,

To answer the question, it is both appreance and mannerism. I believe that CDers tend to be more critical lookers than the normal population. For most, they look at specific clues as to what you are wearing. For example, size and type of earrings, wearing of nail polish etc. I am frequently greeted with female pronouns, even when I am not wearing makeup or breast forms. However, I am wearing woman's colorful tops, long dangling earrings, brightly colored nails and carrying a purse. If the interaction is long enough, my mannerisms may make the person realize that I am not a GG. But I often find that they will continue to use the female programs out of respect.

Richelle

[Teresa]

The question you should ask is if your wife is prepared to venture out what does she want you to look like ? What level of look is she expecting ? You both know your not going to transform overnight into a totally passable female ! You've got to take in small comfortable steps !

[devida]

I know I'm not blind or particularly uninterested at the way people present themselves. I also know that statistically speaking I must encounter cross dressers on a fairly frequent basis. Even if cross dressing men are only one in a hundred I must see at least one every time I go to a mall or some other public place. But I have to tell you, I just don't see them. Now if I, a transgender person, don't actually pay enough attention to the gender identify of the people I encounter, what does the gender normal person do? Not pay any attention to gender except for the most general cues. I am often referred to by waiters and service people as ma'am and I'm not trying to pass at all. I'm not wearing a dress. I am usually wearing some women's clothes but mostly it is just that I'm not presenting myself as male because I don't think of myself as male. Most people are trained to make very fast binary judgements about the people they encounter and they really really want to gender people as the gender they present. It's true that I don't but then I don't address people as sir or ma'am so I don't need to do that. I don't care what gender the people I encounter happen to be and actually most people don't want to spend much time on this at all. Cross dressing men seem to spend an inordinate amount of time worrying about something that not too many other people actually care about. I think you're less likely to pass if you're constantly worried about passing. Present yourself as the gender you believe yourself to be and most people will just go along. The ones that don't, well, maybe they need to get a hobby.

[Emi_]

The eternal debate.

A million men will give you a million responses. Here is mine.

Really, passing is a combination of giving off the right visual cues combined with the confidence that you are this person and this is your choice of clothing. Not every woman is the feminine ideal and there are even some women who could be mistaken for men. Womanliness is a projection of the whole person, not simply any subset of behaviors. It's about inhabiting the person you want to be received as. I do my feminine best, but I'm more interested in just being accepted as person and receiving basic human dignity - if they figure out I'm a cross-dresser, my hope is that I will be confident enough that it won't matter. I don't mind the occasional snicker or stare, just let me eat my fries in peace.

Just my two cents. You've tapped into the life's blood of this place.

[Felicia Dee]

Going back to the OP... I believe "Passing" is a combination of the two: put your best foot forward and then own it!

As far as I see it, "Passing" isn't a matter of how much of a genetic woman you look like, it's about being confident. It's about taking style cues from the women around you, finding open communities and being the best YOU that you can be.

XOX

[Adriana Moretti]

Wendesday nailed it.....I NEVER spell her name right LOL.....but yup.....the best you is all you can hope for...and nobody is perfect....nobody...

[Eryn]

There are millions of GGs who wake up every day, look in the mirror, and don't like what they see. They might even think that they look mannish. Yet, every one of these goes out and successfully "passes" because they know what they are and they show confidence in themselves.

The other day I was dressed in shorts and T-shirt that were from the women's racks but weren't obviously feminine. My hair is just below my ears and I was wearing studs. I was carrying my boy-mode nylon shoulder bag. I stopped at the drug store for a bag of Epsom salts. I went to the checkstand, paid with my male-name credit card, and was pleasantly surprised when she gave me a cheery "Have a nice day, Ma'am!" when our transaction was done. I apparently had given her sufficient female cues and my lack of self-consciousness carried the day.

Yes, you need to have a certain look to pass, but most of it is between the ears.

[Marcelle]

Hi Dani . . . in response to your question (visual or behavior) I believe it is both. I never try to pass as I give off too many cues which scream guy in my visual appearance. However, I do try to blend and luckily my height and frame allow for a 30 second window in which people see "girl" but should they decide to come in for a closer look . . . dude :eek:

However for me it is not about passing as I know that will never occur. I prefer to blend so I can exist in the sunshine of the Vanilla world with minimal incidents. If I get read . . . no biggie so long as they person is relatively polite about it. Not going to get fussed by a rude stare, giggle or guffaw but might take exception to verbal insults and violence . . . then will definitely meet boy me :battingeyelashes:

I find that if I act like I belong most people just leave me alone.

Hugs

Isha

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Dani, If your wife thinks that you look good enough to go out then go for it.

[irene9999]

Passing (or blending in) is a visual thing but your behavior and mannerism are very important too. You can look very pretty in a dress, but if you're walking around like a dude you will attract unwanted attention. I think the visual aspect is a little overrated as most women are not "models" and no one doubts they're female