Are we really that bad???

[Donnagirl]

OK so several days ago I asked a question about how 'bad' we really are as husbands, partners and SO's, when compared to many other 'normal' husbands with habits, hobbies, activities or other sometimes distasteful things that can damage a relationship. I did limit replies to those from the GG's only as they are the ones who suffer our proclivities. I did not want the 'group think' to supplant the argument. Suffice to say I was not overwhelmed by responses... Now, that thread is still open and I hope to receive further replies. But....

I am now keen to hear from my fellow CD-ers on their opinions... Do you agree that we can acquiesce a little to easily. We tend to sacrifice a little self esteem at the alter of appeasement rather that at least occasionally standing up for what we are... I mean we hardly roam the streets at night, biting the heads of kittens! Our eyes do not glow red and we can walk on consecrated ground without blistering... OK so we occasionally like to wear a dress, and heels, and lingerie and makeup and forms, and wigs and....

While the questions posed in my original post are all generic and hypothetical, I'm sure we can all identify with some of the sentiments or some of the arguments...

The original thread is here...

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?215782-A-question-for-Tinkerbell-and-the-other-GG’s

Thanks,

[sometimes_miss]

It's not that we are 'that bad'. It's that we are no longer sexually appealing to the women we love. Once that attraction is gone, the love can soon follow. Yes, some will still care about us, but they will no longer feel the romantic feelings, often, ever again the same way. I suppose it's impossible to understand that unless you've gone through it yourself.

[Tiffanyselkoe]

My wife stated to me that the sneaking around and hiding a part of myself was the biggest problem for her. She has always maintained that honesty and trust are very important to members of the female persuasion. That being said, I have never delved into the area of physical attraction while dressed although we have been intimate as girl/girl per se. She has told me that as long as I am not trying to act like someone else she is fine. I see no need to pretend so I am comfortable with that. I believe society just needs to get used to the fact that we are not all cut from the same cloth but that is what makes us individual, not bad people.

[Jenniferathome]

Donna, you are asking the wrong question. You opine that DRESSING is seen as the chief problem and we cross dressers are not so weird. The chief problem for wives as has been written here many times, is the SECRECY. That secrecy manifests itself to wives as lack of trust or flat out lying/misrepresentation.

Now, throw in cross dressing ON TOP of the secrecy/trust issues and that's a heavy weight indeed.

Still, denying that cross dressing is not well outside of "normal" is just self-serving. Cross dressing is weird and even we cross dressers can't explain it. THAT makes it impossible for a wife to really understand. They just have to accept it as is and that that is a chore in itself.

So, are we "bad" husbands for being cross dressers? No, of course not. However, are we well outside what any reasonable woman should expect from a husband? YES! And that's why we have to try harder.

[Marcelle]

Hi Donna . . . are we really that bad . . . of course not. As Jennifer said we may seem weird to the uninitiated but "weird" does not equate to "bad".

A lot of times people will say we (CDers) are selfish, bad, egocentric because we did not disclose to our SOs the day we met or shortly thereafter and this makes up "not worthy of trust" and need to "go that extra mile to earn that trust". However IMHO (and many will disagree) that for some here we did not even know or only have a small inkling of what all this meant so "secrecy/lying" moniker is a bit short sighted. I did not wake up one day 25 years ago and say "Hey, I think I will go meet a woman, marry her and then 25 years later tell her I am CDer and ruin her life" For a lot of people here, self discovery takes time and if you are loving husband/father and can balance your life and still be a good and loving person then whether you dress "en femme" for self sexual pleasure or just to feel good, who are you hurting? There is a fundamental difference between a CDer who married decides they want to dress up and just feel right and are still there for their SO in everyway which makes them a good and loving partner. If the contention is that I married a man not a girly man who wants to sport women's clothing my return question is "If your husband is still functioning in the role of manly man in all aspects of your relationship with the one exception of wearing women's clothing from time to time . . . are you prepared to think less of him based on looks?" We all change, we put on weight, we loose our hair, we take on behaviors which the other can find annoying but "clothes" is enough to throw a good relationship away? Don't get me wrong if CDing becomes so extreme that you are neglecting your SO, your relationship and you are acting selfish then like any other marital issue . . . exit visas may be imminent.

It is going to take some work on both parts as compromises will have to be reached. But to wag a finger at someone and say "bad boy" or "selfish boy" now you must pay the piper seems a bit abusive to me. We (CDers) cannot control the urge to dress (on whatever level) anymore than we can control our need to breath. Yes, some SOs will feel betrayed, hurt, cheated and may even seek revenge (that is totally understandable) however it does not mean we are bad and need to accept every condition which in the end may lead to emotional distress and most likely bitterness, anger and the end of the relationship regardless. Relationships are between adults and if a compromise cannot be reached then sometimes it is best to act like adults, call it quits and move on with your respective lives . . . but this holds true for any bumps in a relationship. :)

Hugs

Isha

[Rachael Leigh]

Well I know for my wife its all about the fear of what someone may say or think if they knew about Leigh, her reputation would be ruined and many would think less of her for letting that go on in our marriage. They would not understand why dont you just kick him out. I do get that to some extent but for me over the last several years Ive decided who cares about that I mean Im sure there are things in all marriages that if we knew about we might wonder how does that work.
Ive tried my best to understand her side but its not easy when in my mind its just clothes. It could be so much worse.

[Teresa]

Donna if we are not shrouded in pink fog we can bring an extra dimension to our relationships, most of us know how we feel when dressed, less stressed, compliant, kind and loving but some of us are rejected for it ! Your partner may argue, why do you need to dress to feel those things ?
Not always easy to answer, the fact is we do ! If I didn't dress my behaviour would become more unpredictable, you could say eventually it would become bad ! I hate the feeling of acting like a spoiled child but we all know it goes much deeper than that !
The other side of the coin is our partners may be looking for a way out and CDing gives them the handle they need !
We do have to stand back little sometimes and realise there's good and bad on both sides, as husbands we are put through the mill sometimes irrespective of our CDing !

[suchacutie]

This is a most complex topic and a conundrum as well. Once a lifetime commitment is involved where two people pledge their all, an issue as complicated as gender identity is bound to be emotional.

Let's remember that many people see what we do, at any level, to be an abomination, punishable in an way possible. if one's spouse is in thus mindset, it is a recipe for disaster. Secondly, a part of our beings is linked to our spouse, i.e. who we are is partly who they are. If suddenly your spouse is involved with actions that are deemed negative, it's a problem. Add to that the shock of realizing that one's spouse has been able to hide a part of his life that he deems very important and you have a tinderbox ready to explode. Unfortunately, this is all still the case even if we didn't really understand all of it going into the relationship.

On the other hand, there are some women who can understand our evolution with time, just as they understand their own, if they are not already predisposed to see gender fluidity as a deal breaker. To get this all out in the open when we often don't understand it ourselves, even hoping for insight from our partners, is the conundrum. How does one bring up such a private topic to someone if we want it to remain private?

Bottom line: being gender fluid is not simple and not easy. Add a lack of general understanding and downright revulsion by some, and it's truly amazing that we have the intestinal fortitude to continue in the face of all of it.

[Desirae]

I understand the premise made in the OP of " Cding doesn't rise to that of abuse, alcoholism, drug abuse, cheating, etc".

I have had GG friends in the past who have been in abusive relationships and either stuck around and refused to leave or left only to return. Likewise, I have had GG friends whose husbands were heavy drinkers, if not full blown alcoholics, and they, too, stuck around and still do to this day. I think some of them were/are under the delusion that they can change their SO. Some probably hang around for the kids.

I understand the relevance of keeping one's CDing secret from the SO. I understand that keeping secrets in general is not conducive to a good relationship. However, this kind of secret is not the same as keeping an affair secret or keeping your drug abuse secret. I will concede that it would depend, somewhat, on how deeply involved the CDing goes, though. I mean if you're getting hotel rooms and CDing on the sly, and meeting up with others for sexual rendezvous, then I guess that is a bigger problem of secrecy. But, that's a different problem, is it not?

Yeah, CDing is weird. I'll concede that, too. But, I don't think it rises up to the level of abuse, alcoholism, severe gambling addictions, cheating, etc, even if it has been kept secret from the spouse and then suddenly discovered. It wasn't really kept from her in order to hurt her, was it? It was kept from her because of embarrassment and not wanting to hurt her.

I guess in the end it comes down to fulfillment. If the spouse is still getting enough of what she needs, even with the SO's CDing, she will stick around, although I guess that depends on the how deep the husband's involvement is in the CDing. I guess the GG friends of mine were still fulfilled enough to stick around even in the case of abuse or alcoholism.

[Donnagirl]

There is definitely a common thread that is reflected in the PM's I've received as well, CDing for many may not be 'that bad'. It is the secrecy, subterfuge, lack of openness and transparency and general deceit, all peripheral to the root cause, are the real negatives.

That may be the biggest hurdle for many to overcome...

[NicoleScott]

For those of us who crossdress for pleasure, part-time, and otherwise enjoy our maleness, it IS about the clothes. In that case, it should be viewed as just a kink or a quirk, but some women don't/won't/can't see it this way. There ARE women who find crossdressing extremely repulsive, right or wrong, but that's the reality. Some crossdressers seem to be in denial about this, not wanting to believe that crossdressing is the cause for relationship breakdowns. And how could they know the cause of other CDers' breakups when they know so little about them personally? I guess everyone is entitled to an opinion, even if unsupported by facts.

[Carmen]

There are vastly worse hobbies that I could have taken up instead of occasionally going out en femme.

[RADER]

My wife was OK with my desire to wear different clothing; From time to time, she would
even order some thing for me she thought I might like to wear.
There was no secrets between us, The only rule to follow was not to embarrass her in any way.
We where married for over 19 years, and the last 6 years saw an increase in dressing because
of my retirement, and more time to dress. I never left the house dressed, however under dressing
was allowed and some times encouraged.
I miss her a lot, it is about 16 months since she passed.
She would say that my dressing gave me a slight incite of what a woman wants; All her friends where
envious of her, saying that she had the perfect husband.
If they only knew....LOL
Rader

[PaulaQ]

It really is that bad.

Doesn't matter what we think. Our opinions about the objective reality about the situation don't really matter either. Our spouse's feelings are what matter in this situation.

The secrecy doesn't help matters - but the truth is, VERY few women would consciously seek a CD for a partner, and many are put off by it even when it's revealed early on.

Our society doesn't deal well with individuals who are gender variant. Cisgender women, in particular, seem to have a tough time with this in a relationship, for reasons that aren't entirely clear to me.

I was really apologetic to my wife until quite recently, though we've been separated for nearly a year now. Why? Because she completely freaked out, came unglued, broke down emotionally, etc. when I came out to her. Heck, I hoped when I told her that I was "just a CD." Didn't matter. Over the course of a three hour conversation, my wife's image of me shattered, and was never restored. I was apologetic because this was BY FAR the worst I'd ever seen her hurting, and it was caused by something I said to her. I loved her - and I'd apparently just told her the worst thing she could have ever heard in her life. I felt awful!

So it's not so much that we're really that bad. Most of us aren't bad at all. A little weird, from most cisgender people's perspectives, but not bad people*. At least not bad because of our gender variance. But the situation really is that bad for many women.

All I can really tell most of you for comfort is be glad you aren't transsexual - there's really no compromise in that situation possible. The wife of a MtF transsexual has two choices, really - accept the relationship in whatever form it ends up in, or terminate it. There's no middle ground at all. But of course for many CDs, that isn't so far from their situation either - some women won't compromise at all.


* OK, some people, mostly religious people, view us as minions of evil.

[Stephanie47]

You're preaching to the choir!

[Confucius]

A person's character is not measured by his clothing, but by his heart. When you ask, "how bad are we" you are focusing on ourselves and not on the person we are trying to please. Each of our SOs/wives has her own particular needs and you need to ask yourself how well are you doing in responding to her needs.

You will have to love your wife in 5 languages: words of affirmation, quality time, gifts, acts of service and physical touch.
You will have to protect her 3 ways: physical protection, financial protection and mental (emotional) protection.
You will have to respect her: This is the most difficult thing for a man to do. It requires communication, understanding, sharing in her values - making your values and her values one.

Most women expect some basic needs when they get married: They need to be held and loved by a man. They need to feel secure and protected by a man. They need to love a man they can respect and honor. They are counting on us to be their man. Cross-dressing doesn't mean that we can't be their man, it only makes it complicated. That is where we need to understand our wive's tolerances and ability to cope with our cross-dressing. Often that means some compromise. We may even go to a therapist or a relationship coach, and you know what they will tell you -- be sensitive to each other's needs and allow for compromise. If your wife loves you and knows that cross-dressing makes you happy, they most of them will attempt to compromise.

If you are interested in learning about how many wives suffer and feel hurt from their cross-dressing partners then you may check out this forum:
http://www.crossdresserswives.com/revision/forum1.html
Warning: They don't like cross-dressers.

[Roxie]

Couldn't agree with you more Donna ,to many times we are the one to be evil. I don't know how many couples I know that have completely dysfunctional relationships. I don't drink to much ,have a steady bisness , helped with my former GF kids when needed ,blah ,blah ,blah, I would even consider myself a decent boyfriend .BUT when it came to being a cross dresser couldn't have that no way. Are you kidding me? way way worse evils in this world than a man in a dress.My former GF was at one time married to a abusive drunk, much worse than me in a dress.
The people who are in a relationship where CDing are a forbidden taboo such as i was need to take a hard look at who they are.Don't get me wrong there are woman who detest this type of thing ,Valid point ,but in no way should a CDer be treated as a lesser person. Happens way to often where it's my way or the high way on this point .Couples need to work on the same page on this just like they would on other relationship problems and hope for the best and if this is the "deal breaker" such as it was in my relationship.Then at the vary least your SO should respect your privacy and not try to ruin your life over it.NO we are not that bad.

kinda did a rant on this, strong feeling ,gave a lot up to be me. WORTH IT!
Roxie

[Kate Simmons]

I finally stood up for myself and because of that lost my wife. The point was that I was tired of years and years of the endless explaining of my feelings and worrying about appeasing other people. I finally lived it 24/7 for awhile and found out what worked best for me. You can either settle for being a shell of a person to please others or be yourself. I chose the latter. No one ever said the end result would be "peaches and cream" but at least now I have peace of mind.:)

[DonnaT]

At times, my wife would have considered my only fault to be the crossdressing, and when comparing me to my brothers, she's said she much rather I be a CD than have their faults. Also, she's heard stories from a number of married women who complain about what their husbands do, or do not do, and concludes she's made the right choice is a husband.

Certainly makes for better acceptance/tolerance of my CDing.

[Beverley Sims]

Donna,
Just because of our unique interest I feel that we are no different to any other male partners out there.

We all have our faults and our quirkiness is just "different." :)