Lemme ask you all something...

[whowhatwhen]

What if you're more butch than femme?
What if you don't care about makeup, dresses, heels, and deportment/mannerisms?

This is one part where I feel so different, there doesn't seem to be a lot of transwomen who aren't into those things.
How I feel is that I spent so much time paranoid about emulating the correct aspects of stereotypical masculinity that I don't want to spend any time on stereotypical femininity either.

Though going this route means I'll be read as a guy for much, much longer.

I'll put the same thing toward any transguys reading this thread as well, except, you know, in reverse.
:D

[arbon]

I don't care very much for makeup and only recently have been getting more into dresses (well wanting to look good for someone in particular :o ) . Yesterday I wore something close to heals for the first time and discovered they were alright (I thought they would kill my feet all day)

But I am not always dressed very fem, and that does not serve me well. When I put in the effort to look good I am more often treated and identified as I want to be. When I don't put in the effort then more disappointment in how people see me. Wish I could be the girl with no makeup, jeans and a t shirt most of the time and still always be seen as a girl though.

[Angela Campbell]

Some are one way some another just like genetic women. Some wear makeup and skirts a lot and some are always in jeans and a t shirt. What kind of look you want is a personal thing and we are all a little different.

I like makeup and nice clothes, skirts more so than dresses, shorts mostly. I don't wear a lot of makeup but do always do my eyes.

[Frances]

I am big-time tomboy. I wear jeans and t-shirts pretty much all the time, and rarely wear make-up. I never get misgendered.

[GabbiSophia]

I am it into those things but for once in my life I like to look good and feel good about how I look. That's the reason I even own that stuff. Other than that i say wear what you want and be you.

[KellyJameson]

Being viewed and accepted as a woman (or man) is a strong influence on how a person wants to look.

The easier you pass or the less you care about passing the more you are likely to find your own style of expression.

I follow a number of transman blogs because they struggle with issues similar to us and many are gifted writers who are very good at expressing the emotions involved.

They often discuss this very topic but from the other perspective.

I have always been compelled to "find me" and express this person physically.

I like a lean, largely fat free swimmers body. I don't like being "curvy" but "athletic"

I use makeup sparingly and have never liked large amounts of makeup on anyone.

I also dress for the weather and if it is hot out I prefer a lite weight skirt or shorts because I'm very sensitive to the heat but otherwise I wear jeans almost exclusively when not at work.

Heels are a fashion statement but also extremely impractical in most instances, plus wearing certain types to often will potentially damage your feet.

I don't care about mannerisms if that means I'm going to find myself "acting like a woman" instead of being one " As I know it and experience it" and concerning this I don't care what others think makes a woman or not.

In my opinion the reason you transition is to stop acting so I strongly agree with your words.

I will consider certain gender roles expected by society but I'm not going to lose myself by adopting these roles when they are unnatural to me.

[Amylou2014]

I'm on of the GGs that live in tshirts jeans or shorts. I hate getting dressed up. Me and my us and were just talking about this last night, I told him he looks better than io do in all my cloths and when he's dressed he looks all fem and I'm sitting there in his cloths lol

[arbon]

I told him he looks better than io do in all my cloths and when he's dressed he looks all fem and I'm sitting there in his cloths l

You should be careful saying that around here a lot of CD's will think it means GG's are jealous of them.

[Rianna Humble]

I have to say that I am more relaxed about going out with almost no makeup on than I once was, but generally I do need a little. I only wear heels when I don't want to wear flats, but most of all I wear dresses, except when I wear skirts or trousers with a top. I would wear jeans if I could find any pretty enough that fit me comfortably.

There are some things that should not be shown under any circumstances and that includes the tops of my legs :heehee:

[LeaP]

You should be careful saying that around here a lot of CD's ...

Girl, do you have that right.

I think every answer here has hit it. It isn't butch vs femme or dressed down vs dressed up. It's just a matter of tells. A GG doesn't typically create gendering confusion wearing, well, almost anything. (OK, Diane Keaton confuses me, but not because of her Annie Hall getup.) A lot of trans women would, though there are exceptions. Frances is one. I can think of others who are exceptions also - most of whom have had FFS.

[Donna Joanne]

If I may be so bold as to say, you all have hit upon the major difference between us and CD'ers; to them the clothes make the girl, to us the girl makes the clothes! Wasn't that really so simple and uncomplicated?

[Starling]

I've got one foot in the tomboy camp, although I do like skirts. Most of the time, though, I'm in good knit pants and a boat neck tunic, with clogs or better flip-flops on the bottom. Not a big fan of tennies. Comfort with care is my watchword. I'll occasionally wear a slight heel, in a casual style, and being shorter than the average female, I do enjoy the feeling of being just a little bit taller. I do fancy wearing earrings, bracelets and a necklace or scarf, and applying at least a mineral base with eyebrows and lipstick, when I'm going out. And I almost always wear an ankle bracelet or two, so I never forget who I am, however I must present.

:) Lallie

[PaulaQ]

I know a number of women (both cis and trans) who are more butch than femme. There's not a thing wrong with that. Butch girls rock, in my opinion.

Just be yourself - you've spent your whole life hiding who you really are.

[Michelle789]

This is one part where I feel so different, there doesn't seem to be a lot of transwomen who aren't into those things.


I disagree with this statement. I see lots of transwomen who wear mainly dresses, skirts, heels, makeup, and other stereotypically feminine clothing. I see just as many transwomen who like jeans, t-shirt, sneakers or flip flops, and little to no makeup. I do see that regardless of the style, that most of us prefer long hair. I do see a few transwomen with short hair.

I also disagree with the statement that crossdressers dress more femme, and that transwomen dress like tomboys. I hear of CDers on this forum who prefer wearing jeans and t-shirt when they go out, and others who prefer to dress more femme. In fact someone started a whole thread on this subject.

I also disagree with the assertion that you need to dress a certain way to pass. Some will argue that you need to "dress to blend" in order to pass, and this basically means jeans and t-shirt, therefore if you wear dresses, skirts, stockings, heels, or makeup, you will get clocked. I hear just as many say the opposite that you need to dress femme, and that wearing a jeans and t-shirt will get you clocked. I don't think that matters. I think dressing as how you feel yourself to be will make you happier, and you'll pass better too. If you dress in a way that you don't like, you're more likely to get clocked because you're not comfortable with yourself.

I believe you should dress in whatever way makes you happy personally. If you like to dress femme, than go femme. If you like to dress tomboy, then do it. If you like to dress butch, than do it too. If you like to mix and match your look than that's okay too. You might like a skirt with short hair. You might like long hair, eye makeup, no other makeup, and jeans. You may like every aspect of femininity except painting nails.

You may dress femme but have an assertive personality. You may dress butch and be more passive in your personality.

There are no hard rules on how you need to be. Just be yourself. So behave in a manner that reflects who you really are. Dress in a manner that reflects who you really are. Don't worry about being clocked. If you worry about being clocked, than you'll attract more getting clocked.

I personally identify as a femme woman. I dress femme - I like wearing skirts, dresses, long hair, makeup except eye makeup, stockings, and painting toe nails. I don't wear stockings with open toe shoes though. I don't wear eye makeup, and I haven't painted my fingernails yet. I do paint my toenails and show them off sometimes. My personality is definitely more femme and sweet, but I am learning to set boundaries so that people don't walk all over me. I have a sometimes good sense of humor and I can be silly sometimes, although much of the time I tend to be more calm and serious. I am smart and analytical - some might consider this to be masculine traits, but I don't consider these traits to be gendered as male or female, and neither would my therapist. I am definitely the bottom in a relationship.

Being butch or femme has nothing to do with your sexual orientation either. You can be a butch straight, lesbian, or bisexual. You can be a femme straight, lesbian, or bisexual. You may be somewhere in between butch and femme, and you may have a different sexual orientation.

[PretzelGirl]

I also disagree with the statement that crossdressers dress more femme, and that transwomen dress like tomboys. I hear of CDers on this forum who prefer wearing jeans and t-shirt when they go out, and others who prefer to dress more femme. In fact someone started a whole thread on this subject.

Ummmm..... I guess I am guilty for at least one of them. :doh: But I am not thinking I am a CDer anymore. :D

What I will find interesting is the changes in preferences from the start of transition until maybe 6-12 months in. I know I have gone out without makeup a few times when it would never happen before. It isn't my preference, but I am not totally adverse. My shoulders can now have the sun hit them. I also expect to wear some things I wouldn't before once things are more natural instead of fake. I never was one to risk exposing those.

[Dianne S]

I don't like putting on makeup, but at this stage of my hair removal odyssey, I have no choice. Laser is starting to work and I'm hoping that in 6 months or so I'll be able to get away with light foundation similar to the coverage a GG would use.

I do love dresses and skirts, however. Also, I'm no good at tucking so I need something a bit loose around the lower body to camouflage things. I can get away with pants as long as they're not too tight, but I need to wear two very tight elasticized undies to keep things in place and it gets uncomfortable.

Being trans is not easy. But the feeling of wearing a skirt is one of the minor perks. :)

[Starling]

...There are no hard rules on how you need to be. Just be yourself. So behave in a manner that reflects who you really are. Dress in a manner that reflects who you really are. Don't worry about being clocked. If you worry about being clocked, than you'll attract more getting clocked...

It's clear that a lot of our tastes could be considered contradictory, but that's life, ain't it? I decided that I wouldn't try to become a different person, because I've been a woman for a long time without knowing it, and I trust myself to relax into the woman I am. I do like girl things, though. I get a mani-pedi about once a month, and I'd love to get color every time; but when you're not full time, it's a real pain in the elbow. I do keep my hair long--but often on a wig stand. And I do tend to cry a lot at movies. Perhaps had I known myself better as a youngster, I might have evolved into a very femme woman; but I know what's in the realm of the possible for me now, in terms both of fashion and comfort, and that pretty much precludes glamour, although I do like to make myself attractive.

:) Lallie


...I can get away with pants as long as they're not too tight, but I need to wear two very tight elasticized undies to keep things in place and it gets uncomfortable...

I mostly wear pants, Dianne, but while they require tighter control, I quite enjoy the compression I get with my binding method. I tried many different combinations of panties, pads, g-strings and gaffs until I finally achieved my desired effect: not so much a look, necessarily, but a comforting feeling, the illusion of having an innie.

:) Lallie

[amander-]

i am not a butch i am a happy go lucky and a friendyl so i do not have a bad bone in my body.

[noeleena]

Hi,

I don't conform to being a male or female, nore will I ever and that's from birth. I have aspects of both.

So the ? then comes am I a male or female. im both. and very happy being this way. yes theres a name for my condition if others need it they can understand why im this way, = intersex

I live as a normal woman though don't allways dress as one. im just as happy working and wearing my work clothes bib overalls and boots and sunhat. no makeup and just as I normaly look .= avatar

How am I perceived as a normal female though a few will see my face and think a male in some ways yes and others no. though those who know me accept the way I am,

There are quite a few trans people who wont accept my difference that I know, because of my being born different ,

Many of my women friends don't wear makeup or wear high heeled shoes, does that say we are not women or mean we are not good enough or feminine enough just because a group of men who wear our clothes or buy clothes that are made for us and they think they are better than us wont accept we are the women and are born female yet rubbish us because we don't conform to what they think we should do .... just for them.

...noeleena...

[I Am Paula]

As much as my mind totally agrees that gender has a million subtle variations, I myself am completely stuck in the binary. I was a guy (badly, and without a lot of effort put into it.) now I've hit the exact opposite. I am uber femme, and will stay that way. I put on makeup to get the mail (which falls thru' a slot in the door.)
I do wear pants, and sometimes a T-shirt, but made up, with painted nails, and freshly done hair.
To each their own.

[Kathryn Martin]

I don't think that being witnessed as a woman has anything to do with clothing, makeup etc. I don't even know what you mean "butch" or "femme". This nomenclature was used to describe lesbian sexual relations, but I am not sure that it even applies to the context here.

If you did a survey of trans women you will find that the majority is not what you describe as "femme".

What is interesting in my view though is what you said about breaking from the stereotypes be they either male or female.

[NANNETTE]

I am definitely a girly girl and always will be

[whowhatwhen]

I don't think that being witnessed as a woman has anything to do with clothing, makeup etc. I don't even know what you mean "butch" or "femme". This nomenclature was used to describe lesbian sexual relations, but I am not sure that it even applies to the context here.

If you did a survey of trans women you will find that the majority is not what you describe as "femme".

What is interesting in my view though is what you said about breaking from the stereotypes be they either male or female.

I've heard it used outside lesbians, butch being more masculine ie "butch biker bar" or femme as in "NO FATS NO FEMMES".
I suppose "tomboy" is more apt but I'm lazy when it comes to thinking so eh :P

The admittedly few transwomen I've met IRL were more feminine in their appearance, it could very well be that I just haven't met enough for to have a good sample size.

[Michelle789]

If you did a survey of trans women you will find that the majority is not what you describe as "femme".

If we go by the way you dress, than from my experience in the trans community, 40% dress femme, 30% dress tomboy, and 10% dress butch.

I agree that very few transwomen, or even ciswomen for that matter, adhere perfectly to the standards of femininity to be femme. I think 40% of transwomen fit 70% or more of the femme stereotypes, and even non-femme transwomen might still have a good deal of femme traits in their personalities or the way they dress.

Actually, I think there is a category of "soccer mom" dress that is kind of in between femme and tomboy. I would probably say there are fewer "soccer mom" looks among transwomen, maybe 20%, while I think that the "soccer mom" look is pretty typical of GG's who are of parenting age.

Also, femme, soccer mom, tomboy, and butch aren't black and white. Can you be 80% femme, 20% tomboy? Or 75% butch, 20% soccer mom, 5% femme?

If we go by personality, then I would probably say that it's pretty close to how we dress, with maybe a slight lean towards more tomboy, and this is largely because of our male upbringings and male habits we might exhibit more stereotypically tomboyish behavior. That can be worked on though if you feel yourself to be more femme. There is nothing wrong with being femme, tomboy, or butch.

[Kathryn Martin]

I wish someone would explain what exactly "femme" is. What makes a dress "femme" and pants non femme? It's all just stereotypes. People in the long run dress to be comfortable. Comfort is not only physical comfort but also emotional comfort. I wear a lot of dresses (except in winter) and how that makes me "femme" is beyond me. Being witnessed for who you are is not related to your dress otherwise the stereotypes of men in dresses or "butch" would not exist, they are after all related to a constructed appearance expectation which has little or nothing to do with the experience of the individual. Women experience this all of the time in stark relief.

[Frances]

As a French-speaking person, it does not make sense to me either. We use the word the words feminine and masculine to describe a continuum. Femme is French for woman, and has little linguistic currency outside of the gender-gifted universe. I have never heard it uttered by heterosexual English-speaking friends in Canada, ever.

[LeaP]

Of course these are stereotypes. The OP nailed the concern in saying that (in essence) not presenting a stereotypical female appearance will result in being read more. I.e., it undermines the experience of being witnessed, using your (excellent) term. That's not a deal killer, by any means - many here experience this more or less frequently and still manage to get on with life - but it's hardly optimal. Mind you, I'm not suggesting that this means supporting stereotypes is the only answer, but it's certainly one of the most obvious ones and helps many. I would say, from what I have read and seen, that the presentation concern for this purpose lessens over time as other compensations kick in.

[whowhatwhen]

I wish someone would explain what exactly "femme" is. What makes a dress "femme" and pants non femme? It's all just stereotypes. People in the long run dress to be comfortable. Comfort is not only physical comfort but also emotional comfort. I wear a lot of dresses (except in winter) and how that makes me "femme" is beyond me. Being witnessed for who you are is not related to your dress otherwise the stereotypes of men in dresses or "butch" would not exist, they are after all related to a constructed appearance expectation which has little or nothing to do with the experience of the individual. Women experience this all of the time in stark relief.

It's a stereotype based on one's appearance, stereotypical things like wearing makeup, jewelry, heels, painted nails are considered stereotypically feminine.
Butch was a poor word choice, "tomboy" is more correct.

I think this is getting way over analyzed though.

[Frances]

Over-analyzing is what Kathryn often brings to the table. It also has its merits. :)

[whowhatwhen]

Femme can also describe feminine gay men, butch could describe the hairiest bear with hair so dark not even light can escape it's surface, the possibilities are endless!

[LeaP]

The points Kathryn raises are wonderful. If you read them as topics (as intended) rather than refutations, there is a lot to discuss.

[whowhatwhen]

The concept of masculine and feminine presentation has been around for a long time, that's more along the lines of what I meant.
I didn't mean whether or not an article of clothing is masculine or feminine, but the presentation you put forward.

I've seen some pretty manly looking guys rockin' skirts but because their overall presentation is masculine it doesn't matter if skirts are seen as traditionally feminine or made for women.

ARGH! NOW I'M OVER ANALYZING IT!

[Cheryl123]

You girls are far too intellectual for me (but I still love you!) And I love skirts too, and bright red-orange colors. I love jewelry (the flashier the better) and I love make-up, only I wish I had more skill in applying it. And I love heels too, as long as I don't have to walk very far or stand very long in them. But this is just my personality. I don't doll up to impress or to "express my femininity" -- what ever that means. Dressing this way doesn't make me more or less a woman than someone with different tastes. But dressing this way does make me happy, and that's reason enough for me. (Did I tell you that I sometimes paint my nails in outrageous colors .. that make me happy too)

[Xrys]

I am still in that stage where i am finding the real me. It is interesting as i spend a lot of time figuring how much of what i do is really me, and how much of what i do is just trying to fit a steriotype to gain social acceptance, how much of the real me am i really showing and how much am i still hiding. I hav always been facinated by makeup, and it will always be an interest of mine, but how much of my makeup is expression, and how much is expectation? I only own one skirt, and it hasn't gotten much use. I prefer pants, jeans and shorts, even for formal occasions. I love boots with heels but not regular heels. I like having long hair, but i work construction security and have had to butt heads with my boss about it a few times. We finally came to an agreement that it could cover my ears as long as i keep it short enough to stay off my collar. I don't own any jewlry or paint my nails yet. I like t-shirts and cute tops, love jackets and hats.Where does that put me? Am i femme, ot tomboy? I don't know, but i am done letting what other's stereotypical expectations control my life. I will keep trying new looks and what i like can stay, and what i don't can go to goodwill.

[karanne]

I've been trying to 'find myself' for years - if you see me, let me know!

I think I'm 'average'. What is 'average'? Midway between 'girly girl' and 'butch'? I can't go too far toward 'butch' because one of the last things mom did before she passed on was to pay for some implants - 'C' to 'E'. Kinda hard to be 'butch' when you're sticking out like that! :heehee:

There's a spectrum of options that we all face every day, just like everyone else on the planet. I have to dress and act one way at work: skirted suit, blouse, heels, makeup, jewelry. On Friday casual, nice jeans, golf shirt, low heels or nice flats. Weekends, running around, doing chores, I feel I've got 'em, might as well flaunt 'em! I wear leotards, denim skirts or tight jeans and casual boots with a higher heel than normal. Why? I love the look! I admit, I love leotards!

Could I go 'butch'? Yeah, I could, in a way. Cut my hair, rougher clothing, that kind of thing. I could never go completely 'male', even though I've still got that wee little feller 'down there'. I've started on a one-way road, these many years ago (high school) and while there have been rough patches, you get through them. Did I wonder at times, 'What the hell am I doing?' Yes, we all have. Have I tossed my fem stuff in the dumpster? Yes, and then realized 'What am I going to wear tomorrow?' Have I contemplated suicide? Yes, got the scars on my wrist to prove it.

Rather disjointed reply to ... um, what was the question?

[whowhatwhen]

That's a bit different though, what I meant was your day-to-day appearance, the way you leave the house every day.
Interestingly enough and sort of related I probably get clocked as a gay male bottom o_O yet that's pretty far away from who and what I actually am.

[Michaella]

I recommend reading the book Whipping Girl by Julia Serano, a transwoman herself, for a very thorough discussion of these issues. I can't possibly summarize it, but she is very much attuned to the separate concepts of feeling female, and being feminine, or not.

Michaella

[karanne]

That's a bit different though, what I meant was your day-to-day appearance, the way you leave the house every day.
Interestingly enough and sort of related I probably get clocked as a gay male bottom o_O yet that's pretty far away from who and what I actually am.
I think I come across as a rather busty middle-aged (gack!) female. I know I could lose a few pounds around the middle, but so far Spanx is handling that problem!

I like heels and skirts, so I wear them when I can. I drive a Miata (classic chick car!) so I show off some leg when I pivot out of it.

[whowhatwhen]

I wear runners and take the bus/subway lol.
I think the only female cues I give off are the brightly coloured purse and my hair, oh and the boobs.

[mechamoose]

What if you're more butch than femme?
What if you don't care about makeup, dresses, heels, and deportment/mannerisms?


You are talking about my wife...

She is the tank top & shorts person, the 'pull my finger' parent. I'm the 'girly girl' with a beard.

I'm &$@% lucky to have her as my mate. She is who she is. I am who I am. We cross gender roles and don't give a damn. She is a girl with no fashion sense. I'm a dude who loves pretties. We have been partners for almost 30 years. I'm a *lucky* girl.

- MM

[susmitha]

I'm on of the GGs that live in tshirts jeans or shorts. I hate getting dressed up. Me and my us and were just talking about this last night, I told him he looks better than io do in all my cloths and when he's dressed he looks all fem and I'm sitting there in his cloths lol
I want to do this with my wife. Then we must extend this role reversal into the bed room also.

Dear Tami M, I am similar to you. When I am dressed, I am a submissive female. I would be the passive / submissive / receptive female.