RLE before HRT?

[PaulaQ]

If he isn't going out then he is very far from any sort of transition. The usual protocol is that there has to be a "Real Life Experience" of a year or more where the TG person lives as their desired gender 24/7.

The first statement is dead wrong, unfortunately. When you transition has absolutely not one thing with the frequency of CDing, or the brazenness of it - i.e. going out. Medical transition starts when one begins hormone replacement therapy. There is no requirement for RLE before prescribing HRT. The only waiting period with RLE is for SRS - "the surgery", creation of a vagina from a penis. Even this has been relaxed a lot - but many practitioners still require a year of RLE before performing SRS.

HRT can start very shortly after a person finally comes out to themselves as being a gender opposite of their birth sex.

A more reliable indicator of how soon this will happen is, in my opinion, the degree of gender related negative emotions / emotional distress the person is experiencing. In my case, I as anxious, suffered panic attacks, and was massively depressed and suicidal. Anti-depressants didn't touch these symptoms. Hormone therapy melted them away.

Someone who's suffering massively from gender dysphoria will tend to be motivated to do something to mitigate it. Transition is one outcome. Substance abuse is another. And of course, suicide. Only the first one is really a good option.

[Eryn]

The first statement is dead wrong, unfortunately. When you transition has absolutely not one thing with the frequency of CDing, or the brazenness of it - i.e. going out... ....There is no requirement for RLE before prescribing HRT.

Are there really ethical practitioners who would prescribe HRT to someone who hadn't at least had some experience interacting with the world as a woman? This is truly surprising to me, and somewhat frightening as well.

[Michelle789]

Eryn,

In California, you do not need a letter from a therapist any more. As freightening as it sounds, it is more freightening that someone who needs hormones can be denied because of some gatekeepers.

Also, I think it's freightening that in places that still require an RLE to get hormones (or back in the old days when they used to require RLE to get hormones) that you could have to live full time for 6 months to a year, not pass, out yourself to everyone, including family, friends, work, significant other, lose everything, and then find out that you're not getting hormones. So you ruined your life for nothing, and you can never erase coming out, nor the consequences of it. If someone starts hormones, and decides that hormones are not right for them, you can quit hormones within a few months and still reverse the effects of them.

I personally believe the best way to get hormones is under the care of a gender specialist and an endocrinologist, both who can monitor you and see how you respond both physically and mentally, without having to out yourself to the entire world and have your entire life thrown upside down.

I believe some experience interacting with the world as woman could be beneficial, but not full time to the extent where you have to come out to your family and work. And if someone really needs hormones before they get any RLE, then so be it.

[Angela Campbell]

There is no requirement for rle for hormones. In fact it is common for some to undergo hrt without transition. There is a guideline for 1 yr of rle before srs.

That said, it is a good idea to spend the first year of hormones trying to get used to going out as a woman. To be forced into full time beforehand would be incredibly cruel.

[Eryn]

I believe some experience interacting with the world as woman could be beneficial, but not full time to the extent where you have to come out to your family and work.

That is really what I was getting at. I don't believe in rigid "gatekeeper" rules, but it seem foolish for someone to start HRT before having some ideal of what life is like for a woman in public. It doesn't have to be 24/7 and it needn't be outing oneself at work or to friends.

[PaulaQ]

You have no idea of what life is really like as a woman, much less a trans woman, without living full time for a while. If you slip into your man suit for the hard stuff, you really aren't getting the full impact of the change.

In truth though, trying to go full-time without some HRT and some facial hair removal is a poor option for most of us, because many of us don't pass. And life as a non-passable trans woman can really suck.

I went full-time before I started HRT or electrolysis - but I really couldn't take suiting up as a dude anymore. I don't recommend that for most people, to be honest.

[kimdl93]

I can think of another situation where HRT might precede RLE...situations where the individual is primarily seeking some relief from GID, but unwilling or unable to commit to RLE. I know of a couple members of this forum who are taking that path.

[Megan Thomas]

I can sympathise with the argument to have HRT before going through RLE, but it has to be noted HRT effects take months, if not years to show to any discernible effect and then the changes might be minimal anyway.

[Michelle789]

You have no idea of what life is really like as a woman, much less a trans woman, without living full time for a while. If you slip into your man suit for the hard stuff, you really aren't getting the full impact of the change.

In truth though, trying to go full-time without some HRT and some facial hair removal is a poor option for most of us, because many of us don't pass. And life as a non-passable trans woman can really suck.

It really is a catch 22 for transwomen. If you start full time before hormones, you can get the experience of being a woman, but not pass and experience the consequences of not passing. If you start hormones before venturing out as a woman, you don't get any idea of life is actually like as a woman.

So to me it makes sense to venture out slowly, gaining some experience as a woman. Maybe come out to a few close friends, no family or work. Go full time on weekends, while staying male on weekdays. Then go on hormones and continue living part time until you're ready to come out to everyone and go full time.

The reality is there is no way you can get full time experience without coming out to everyone. In some ways, we take a leap of faith by trying to gain as much experience as possible, but we cannot possibly experience everything without coming out. We have to decide how we do our own transitions, and when to venture out part time, when to start HRT, and when to go full time.

If you are single, the best you can hope for without coming out at work, to family, or friends, is to live full time on nights and weekends and do everything outside of work as a woman. If you're married, there's no easy way, because living even part time as a woman requires you to at least come out to your wife, and if you come out to your wife, she might start out you to everyone. Unfortunately, there is major catch 22 involved in transitioning.

I think at best, without outing ourselves to everyone, we can gain some experience on nights and weekends, and we can commit to entire weekends that we will do everything as a woman for the weekend, no matter what shows up. Oh, and if you're friends or family who you are not out to decides they need you to do them favors, or want you to visit, to visit you, or to go see the movie with you, you'll need to make up excuses to get out of whatever they're asking you to do. Living in an area where there is a solid trans community can help us to make friends and live a social life as a woman with other trans people, without outing ourselves to anyone, but you're out of luck if you live in an unpopulated area.

[Jonianne]

I like how my therapist handled my situation. I started with her about a month after knowing I need to transition. She watched me for the next 6 months or so on how I was going out more and more and also informing appropiate people in my life, then she wrote a necessary (VA required it) letter to my VA endo, stating that I was transsexual. I still was not "fulltime" yet (even though I was pushing it). She wanted me to go slowly. 6 months after I started hrt, I did change my name and go fulltime at work and everything. I am glad she reccomended me holding back for a while, especially giving my work place plenty of head's up time.

[whowhatwhen]

I didn't need RLE for my 'mones, but then again I was working closely with my therapist for quite a while.
All the endo wanted was a letter saying that there were no co-morbid mental health concerns that would interfere with my judgement on starting HRT.

What do you mean by RLE exactly?
Sure I could change my name to MollyHolly and ask everyone to use female pronouns but I'm so early on that 90% of the time I'm still gonna be read male.
I'm too old to have needless stress heaped on me, I'll do my "soft" transition while the hormones go about their job.

Presenting as a woman can mean so many different things though, for tomboys that makes it a biiit more difficult.

[Eryn]

..So to me it makes sense to venture out slowly, gaining some experience as a woman. Maybe come out to a few close friends, no family or work. Go full time on weekends, while staying male on weekdays. Then go on hormones and continue living part time until you're ready to come out to everyone and go full time....

It makes sense to me too, and I think that this is the natural progression that most TS folk follow.

It makes me very nervous to see someone who seemingly wakes up one morning with the "fire in their belly" and wants to do everything at once with little firsthand knowledge of what they are getting into. Their chance of a bad outcome seems to be much greater than for those who approach their gender issues and possible transition with more caution.

Addendum:

For some, RLE is when you are living as female 24/7 and never going back to being male. You've "lept off the cliff" and there is no way back. This is a fallacy, since one can go back anytime one chooses. There may be some social fallout, but the path is there.

I tend to broaden the definition of RLE, as I feel that being away from one's ability to effectively portray a male also constitutes valid experience even if it is for a limited time. It can drive home to the potential TS person some realities that one doesn't understand until one is out in the world.

Perhaps we need a new term, "Preliminary RLE?"

[whowhatwhen]

Some people don't want to get all dolled up for a night on the town, their appearance has nothing to do with their internal gender identity.
The thing is that we're all so incredibly different that one hard and fast rule being applied doesn't make sense.

If crossdressing doesn't alleviate someone's GID then why force them to go out in public just to validate their identity?
Informed consent and DIY are a bit different though, I don't 100% like the idea but unfortunately some have to go that route.

All the endo needs to know is that you're not crazy, not if you're out there girling it up.

[Michelle789]

I think in general doing gradual steps is the best way to go. Sometimes that's just not possible because the GD is just so bad.

Starting hormones with no RLE can bring relief, but can cause challenges when someone does start venturing out and faces surprises of being a woman, and being trans.

Someone who rushes into full time faces surprises of being a woman, and of being trans, and of not passing.

The gradual "baby steps" way of transition works the best if you're GD isn't so severe that you have no choice but to go full time or need HRT to bring relief, and also depends on your luck. Example, losing a job early in transition, like the situation I'm in, where I never came out to work, am living full time outside of work, and haven't started HRT, can create unique challenges. In another thread I explained the catch 22 I faced. So by luck or whatever you want to call it, life threw a monkeywrench in my original plans to follow baby steps. The current situation I am in gives me four tough choices to make.

1. Find any job that is nearby home (East Valley), get girl time every night after work and on weekends, but risk that the job is not stable and I lose my job again not because I'm trans but because the company is not stable. Risk that I might still be miserable during work hours, but at least get relief on nights and weekends. Also risk taking longer to find work since I am limiting my geographic region. Risk still losing the job when I come out, or keeping the job but not being accepted by coworkers.

2. Expand my job search radius so I can find a large stable LGBT friendly company, find a job as a male, but risk driving 3-4 hours in L.A. traffic round trip, and have no girl time except Saturday and Sunday. Go five days straight every week for at least a few weeks or months, or possibly longer, and be miserable except Saturday and Sunday. Still be miserable on weekends because I fear going back to male mode for work. Risk still losing the job when I come out, or keeping the job but not being accepted by coworkers.

3. Do number 2, except I move by my job immediately so that I can have nights to dress as myself, and then pray for the best. Risk still losing the job when I come out, or keeping the job but not being accepted by coworkers. I will still probably have to suck it up for a few weeks until I can find an apartment by my new job.

4. Find a job as a woman, risk not being able to find a job, risk not knowing what I am getting myself into by interviewing and working as a woman, but if I find a job know that I will be mostly accepted as a woman from day one.

Choices 1, 2, and 3 require me to endure varying levels of misery on the weekdays. Choice 4 puts me at risk of rushing into everything and face consequences of going full time too early. In spite of the so-called bad success rate of people who transition quickly, I have heard people successfully go full time right away, especially if the GD was that bad and they had no choice.

When to go on hormones is up to me and my therapist, and I plan on starting end of this month or early August. Basically I am starting HRT ASAP.

In the end of the day, a carefully planned transition is nice, but you cannot guarantee that you will transition slowly and smoothly. We are all at the mercy of three things we have no control over.

1. GD, which is unpredictable and doesn't care how it wrecks our lives. And believe me GD can cause you to screw up a job. Of my two last jobs, I lost one mainly because of GD, and another one because the company was unstable, and partly because of GD. Alcoholism cost me another job 8 years ago.

2. Life circumstances are unpredictable, and life doesn't care how it wrecks our lives or affects the GD. Unstable companies don't care either.

3. Transphobes can be found anywhere, and they don't care how they wreck our lives, or affects our GD either.

I saw a movie yesterday and one of the side characters said how we are part of an evolutionary process that cares little about an individual. I think life sadly doesn't care about an individual, and individuals only care about themselves and not about the whole or any other individuals. So basically, transition causes us to face many catch 22 situations.

[LeaP]

My phrase for RLE as a requirement for hormones is "unnecessarily cruel."

Also, "full time outside of work" is an oxymoron.

[arbon]

That would really suck

[Eryn]

Perhaps the philosophy should be "Do what you can with the resources you have."

[Persephone]

Some people don't want to get all dolled up for a night on the town, their appearance has nothing to do with their internal gender identity.

Forgive me, but I'm totally confused by this. I can understand not wanting to "get all dolled up," because clothes and clothing choices are only a small part of being a woman, but what does "internal gender identity" mean if it doesn't result in interacting with the world as a woman?


For some, RLE is when you are living as female 24/7 and never going back to being male. You've "lept off the cliff" and there is no way back. This is a fallacy, since one can go back anytime one chooses. There may be some social fallout, but the path is there.

Eryn has made what I think is a SUPER important point. There are any number of cases, some of them high profile, where an individual has transitioned only to find out that being the other gender hasn't made their life better and they find the prospect of going back so scary that they commit suicide. Frankly, I suspect that this accounts for a very significant number, perhaps even the largest number, of transgender suicides.

Everyone needs to realize that there is no fault in transitioning and then finding out that it just isn't for you. As Eryn wrote, there could be some fallout, but I think it will never be as bad as it seems, certainly not worth seeing dying as the alternative.

If we matter as TG's then we have to get this mesage across.

Hugs,
Persephone.

[Michelle789]

I tend to broaden the definition of RLE, as I feel that being away from one's ability to effectively portray a male also constitutes valid experience even if it is for a limited time. It can drive home to the potential TS person some realities that one doesn't understand until one is out in the world.


I think it's more than just validating your gender identity, but also if you're ready to handle the realities of transition. Stepping out into the world can help us to understand the realities of being both women and about being TS, and any experience we can gain can help us. We should ultimately be able to handle being women in all situations. Presenting out in the real world as a woman but not being comfortable being alone at home as a woman can indicate that we just want to show off ourselves to the world. Dressing at home but not presenting out in the real world means we're not ready to handle the realities of being out there. We need to do both. To live full time means to live and embrace all circumstances that happen. The happy. The sad.
The good, the bad, and the ugly.
Being home alone. Being public.
Stressful circumstances. Social circumstances.
Peace, and chaos.
Work, and spare time.
The supermarket, the mechanic.
Home Depot, and MAC.

Being prepared for male attention.

Knowing that when you're stared at, it could be men checking out your body, women checking out your clothes, or you're getting clocked. Being prepared to be both gendered correctly and gendered incorrectly. Situations where you're treated like your human, and situations where you're treated less than human.

Knowing that any situation where you're treated poorly could be any of the following: transphobia, sexism, racism, someone just being a jerk, someone being in a bad mood, poor people skills, someone just being stupid, someone not doing their job, someone being lazy, someone being a control freak, and we could add to this list ad infinitum.

Being able to let go of the male persona. Being able to switch back and forth as long as you need too. Ah, the joys of being trans.

And did I forget that constant battle in our heads.

[Kathryn Martin]

Are there really ethical practitioners who would prescribe HRT to someone who hadn't at least had some experience interacting with the world as a woman? This is truly surprising to me, and somewhat frightening as well.

I take issue with much of what you have said in this thread. I did not "experience interacting with the world as a woman" through going out in women's clothing. I interacted with the world as I from the day I had self perception. I don't know what you mean by ethical? Do you think it unethical to prescribe medication to someone unless they first try living as a healthy person? Bizzarre!


For some, RLE is when you are living as female 24/7 and never going back to being male. You've "lept off the cliff" and there is no way back. This is a fallacy, since one can go back anytime one chooses. There may be some social fallout, but the path is there.


I really don't know what you are trying to say here. It's as if transitioning is a lark. Why would anyone try something like this unless they meant it? The day I transitioned was the day any pretense of being male ended. There was no going back. In fact the fastest way to self destruction is to transition and then saying oooops, I did not mean it. Anyone who would transition with your view should not transition in the first place.

[gonegirl]

For some, RLE is when you are living as female 24/7 and never going back to being male.

If you try to go back then you should not have transitioned in the first place.


You've "lept off the cliff" and there is no way back. This is a fallacy, since one can go back anytime one chooses. There may be some social fallout, but the path is there.


Seriously Eryn, you should reconsider your view on this because of the path you are yourself heading toward. Once you transition there isn't a way back to your past life (both pre-transition and post transition). What you had before de-transition will be either gone or in tatters because you will have lost any remaining understanding, acceptance, tolerance, and respect from individuals and society after showing everyone the "authentic you".

There are very serious reasons why you should not leap off that cliff if you are not prepared to lose it all in order to live. Ask any former TS who has transitioned if they think they can ever go back to a life worth living and see what their response is.

I would also like to say this to anyone making statements about what they think but which have not actually lived: Please don't stand on the safe side of the fence and make absolute statements about what you have never experienced yourself on the other side.

[Aprilrain]

I started hormones in February of 11 and went full time in August of 11, not much happened between those dates change wise.

[Donna Joanne]

I am on HRT and under the care of both a VA psychologist and endocrinologist, and am not living in a RLE. And if you read the standards of care issued to VA providers, it is to refer patients to psychological and endocrinology once they present as GD/GID and want to transition. No where is there a pre HRT RLE requirement there or as far as I know in any of the standards of care for GD.

Ladies and gentleman, we need to refrain from making such wide sweeping statements when it comes to the care and paths others are taking.

If we are really concerned about our sisters and brothers, let's push for more training for PA's, NP's and MD's in treating those presenting with GD; trained gender therapists or at least adequate training for mental health professionals dealing with those presenting with GD; and to make HRT covered under Medicare/Medicaid/Obamacare/private insurance and make internet HRT illegal.

This is the kind of activism I'd like us to be passionately involved in, and would do the most good for us all.

Just my two cents worth!

[I Am Paula]

Getting back to the original topic for a second. My Dr. prescribed after I had seen a therapist for one meeting (50 minutes). He said it was just procedure. While I was at the one appointment, I asked the therapist to make a note that I was starting my 'official' RLE as of right now. She looked at me a bit puzzled, and said I'd been full time for sixteen months, my RLE was finished, call her when I needed a letter. When I contacted Dr. Brassard he requested said letter, and the therapist sent one immed. even though she had not even talked to me in over a year.
RLE, and the standards of care are guidelines, to be interpreted, and implemented, by the patients health team.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

It's not even a small issue Eryn...

It happens all the time.. ethical therapists prescribe HRT for transsexuals regardless of where they stand in transition or non transition...I know literally dozens of people personally that take HRT and don't live as women..
they took HRT when they became self aware as Kathryn points out..

I know two successful transsexual women that never dressed at all...never went out in public...one I am very close to and she says she didn't because she "felt like an idiot"...

[Angela Campbell]

That's the thing. There are guidelines with WPATH but they are not set in stone, and not followed by all. There is no widely used procedures. Across the country, (never mind between countries) one doctor or therapist may do things totally different. Even in the same town i see widely different ways of treating us.

[I Am Paula]

Even the same therapist may feel one patient needs LOTS of therapy, and soul searching, and the next is pretty cut and dry. Mostly as a joke, my therapist called me the sanest transsexual she'd ever met. I'll bet she says that to all the girls ;-)

[Stephania]

I had been seeing my therapist for about 4 years, but only a couple months were about gender off and on when I realized who I was. She gave me no letter, seen my gp and he put me on HRT in Jan. this year. I went full time in May when I finally went into the Walmart we shop at dressed. Full time is when you do everything as a women, even if people you knew os a male may see you dressed.

[whowhatwhen]

Forgive me, but I'm totally confused by this. I can understand not wanting to "get all dolled up," because clothes and clothing choices are only a small part of being a woman, but what does "internal gender identity" mean if it doesn't result in interacting with the world as a woman?


Like I said before, I could certainly go out and buy a new wardrobe and change my name but the problem is that I simply will not pass or even blend at this point.
It's just being set up for stress to expect people to read you as female when all your physical cues are screaming "male".

For someone like me that timeline is a bit longer for monetary reasons and the fact that I'm more plain than a dollar store sponge.
It's better for me mentally to let the HRT do it's work while I finish up hair removal.

Besides, we take HRT to correct the imbalance mentally of running on the wrong hormone.

As a side note I have tremendous respect for someone who realizes HRT and transition isn't right for them and stops.
That takes an enormous amount of balls to admit and those who stop should never be as scorned upon as they are.

[Eryn]

As a side note I have tremendous respect for someone who realizes HRT and transition isn't right for them and stops.

I do as well. There are few checks on the process so it falls to each person to make sure that they are on the right path. It is very easy to get "into the pipe" with practitioners who see their priority as guiding people along the path rather than to help clients determine if they should be on the path at all. Add to this those who assert that people who haven't transitioned fully aren't entitled to an opinion and you end up with a dangerous situation for those who is just learning about their own GID. In the face of all this it takes some courage for a person to decide that the programmed path is not for them.

[whowhatwhen]

I don't think too many, or even a noticeable amount of therapists will actively encourage transition.
It's pretty much up to you, they're supposed to make sure you're doing it for the right reason in that you're mentally stable but beyond that I have no experience.

What's more likely that gender identity is far more complex than even transpeople want to admit.

[Kathryn Martin]

As a side note I have tremendous respect for someone who realizes HRT and transition isn't right for them and stops.
That takes an enormous amount of balls to admit and those who stop should never be as scorned upon as they are.

I am not sure what it is you respect. I would think that misjudging your own situation and reality in such a colossal way would not be something that garners respect. It seems to me that beginning transition should be done with certainty and devoid of tentativeness. Or are we giving things a whirl these days? If so what a lark....

[GabbiSophia]

Actually kathryn i believe you are wrong.. in this spectrum of trying to calm the gd anything goes. No one's knows the steps and for someone to do hrt and some transition to try and ease Thier life only to find out it takes something else is crazy brave. That person admitted they wanted a healthier life and then admitted that what they tried didn't work. They should be comended for still trying to figure it out. So i think you should check the lark comment because most people aren't doing any of this on a lark...i speak first hand that i am not "trying" things on a lark.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

cmon Kathryn...people have been over this many times...
you can't project your own experience with this on everybody...

I was not certain, and starting my transition was not a lark.. for whatever psychological reason, I had to prove it to myself... my distress around my gender caused me to act before I was certain of everything..
My fate would have been much worse if I was forced to sign the magic TS papers that said I was "certain" of anything.. I couldn't have signed them..

I believe my experience was pretty common... and don't get me wrong...it ain't perfect.. fools do rush in, and people that shouldn't take the pill take it anyway...folks that realize their error aren't to be applauded or mocked...they just are..and their experience doesn't detract from the rest of us that are doing the right thing for ourselves..

[GabbiSophia]

Good point kaitlyn i was not talking about those that rush in and then get out.

[whowhatwhen]

I am not sure what it is you respect. I would think that misjudging your own situation and reality in such a colossal way would not be something that garners respect. It seems to me that beginning transition should be done with certainty and devoid of tentativeness. Or are we giving things a whirl these days? If so what a lark....

It's not "giving things a whirl", someone went through all their internal struggles, got their letter of approval, and after a period it turned out transition wasn't right for them.
What's commendable is recognizing this and doing what's right for them by stopping.

[LeaP]

As usual, it seems, I find myself in the middle. Though both hormones and social transition are both "transition," but are different in consequence, I would separate them here. Forget any kind of surgery for the moment.

When end it comes to social transition, transition then detransition is incredibly destructive. That's not a place anyone should go out of uncertainty. It may deserve pity or compassion, but respect? Hardly. The closer applicable concepts are contrition and forgiveness, for the detransitioner and affected family (primarily), respectively.

Hormones are ultimately consequential, taken long enough. But they are also written for a variety of gender conditions and it is not unusual - at all - to even have a firm diagnosis of transsexualism (please don't quibble on the language here - I know here is no such thing in the formal sense) but find hormones unsuitable. But again, respect doesn't really apply here either. It's more typical medical trial and error.

So who does that leave? Those who take hormones experimentally. Unfortunately, I don't think Kathryn is too far off the mark with the "give it a whirl" comment, given the numerous and frequent queries about trying hormones and growing boobs we see everywhere. Not to mention those trying the botanicals route and would go with hormones, given easy access. Does respect apply? That gets to personal views, I suppose, but it gets no respect from me.

[whowhatwhen]

I didn't mean taking them experimentally, and to be fair I don't really like that idea too much either.
What I meant was those who followed the standards of care to the letter and discovered that they're worse off running on estrogen, or testosterone in the case of FtMs.

I won't argue that detransition is destructive, but it's far less bad than forging ahead into something that's not right for them.
What upsets me more is the way that some transpeople will trip over themselves to throw that person under the bus and play the distancing themselves card.

My original thoughts were not about late detransitioners actually and now I kinda regret bringing it up because of this derail which will go absolutely nowhere but downhill.

[LeaP]

OK, but the OP brings all of these topics up - including RLE (social transition), hormones, GD, even surgery. Moreover, you include the line "HRT can start very shortly after a person finally comes out to themselves as being a gender opposite of their birth sex" (emphasis mine) and concludes with a comment that transition is the only good outcome.

That doesn't sound as though you had uncertainty in mind at any level. And I have no idea why late vs. early transition/detransition would change the discussion.

In any event, I agree (and posted in my last response) that one can find they can't take hormones. That's my second category ... respect not applicable.

[whowhatwhen]

Yeah it seems we not only went off topic it's not even in the same room now.

[Jenessa]

Are there really ethical practitioners who would prescribe HRT to someone who hadn't at least had some experience interacting with the world as a woman? This is truly surprising to me, and somewhat frightening as well.


My Dr. has known me, and about me for more the 12 years, he was comfortable starting me on HRT without a therapist. He gets referrals from as far away as Billings, Spokane, Boise, He says I can get top without a therapist sign off based on his recommendation after 12 to 18 months depending on what he sees from HRT. Which is fine, other then an Orchiectomy I don't plan on any bottom surgery. All I know is that I am very excited to have taken the first steps of the journey.

My point is that I don't think RLE is required to know what steps you need to take and it sure isn't unethical to treat someone without RLE.

[Kathryn Martin]

My fate would have been much worse if I was forced to sign the magic TS papers that said I was "certain" of anything.. I couldn't have signed them..

Kaitlyn, you and both know that there are no papers that anyone signs, I didn't sign any papers. But let's be reasonable about this. When you transitioned you signed for transition and to be successful in what you set out to accomplish. You didn't give it whirl, you were really serious about this.

Corinne said: "As a side note I have tremendous respect for someone who realizes HRT and transitionhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items/it/img/arrow-10x10.png (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/#) isn't right for them and stops.
That takes an enormous amount of balls to admit and those who stop should never be as scorned upon as they are."

Then Eryn answered: " It is very easy to get "into the pipe" with practitioners who see their priority as guiding people along the path rather than to help clients determine if they should be on the path at all .... In the face of all this it takes some courage for a person to decide that the programmed path is not for them. ."

Transition is a question of agency, and you were in transition your own agent and actor. You envisioned an outcome that you knew was the right outcome for you and that's why you went ahead in the first place. If people paid more attention to their own agency and stop being driven by the expectations of others de-transitioning would not happen, because you would realize that it is your responsibility not someone else's to be the actor.

[MonctonGirl]

Someone who's suffering massively from gender dysphoria will tend to be motivated to do something to mitigate it. Transition is one outcome. Substance abuse is another. And of course, suicide. Only the first one is really a good option.

Wow that's an awesome quote. I am replying so I can find it again in my replies list.

[Frances]

Transition is a question of agency, and you were in transition your own agent and actor. You envisioned an outcome that you knew was the right outcome for you and that's why you went ahead in the first place. If people paid more attention to their own agency and stop being driven by the expectations of others de-transitioning would not happen, because you would realize that it is your responsibility not someone else's to be the actor.

Yes! I wish a lot of people read this and think about it the next time they say: "my wife does not let me... "

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I agree with you Kathryn. The way you just described is spot on.

what you call agency I have always called ownership and I've expressed that many times... taking ownership of yourself is a hugely important thing in ALL matters in life..

I don't look at it that I would respect or not respect someone that detransitions...I look at it that I respect people that take ownership of their lives and take responsibility for the outcomes driven by their own actions.