Headline! Tranny Drives Bus Over Ex-Friend!

[LeaP]

TS responses only. I.e., if you are post-op, post-transition, on prescribed hormones, or in active transition (meaning in RLE/pre-op).


...What upsets me more is the way that some transpeople will trip over themselves to throw that person under the bus and play the distancing themselves card. ...


In the spirit of spinning threads from spun-off threads to avoid derailments (I just love the mixed transportation metaphors here), I thought I'd ask about the philosophy and utility of what is colloquially known as tossing people under the bus - in this case for detransitioning.

I have chosen my terms purposefully. Specifically, "philosophy" and not ethics or morality. While I have no particular problem with anyone keeping their own counsel on the latter (as long as they are civil about it), I believe there's a discussion to be had on why it might be useful (or not) for TS to distance themselves from detransitioners - and to discuss the rationale that drives the distancing.

No disagreement on the facts, please. I would like to stipulate that detransitioners actually do get thrown under the bus from time to time.

Without slicing and dicing the population too finely, I see three categories of detransitioners.

1) The mistaken detransitioner. These are those who, by their own admission, should never have transitioned and publicly disavow any connection to the trans world. Charles Kane would be an example in this category. They may have thought they were TS, though they may have come to this realization only after transition.

2) The TS detransitioner. Tried and failed. May or may not try again. Failed perhaps from lack of preparation or opposition. Perhaps for financial reasons. Perhaps to self-sacrifice for a SO. Perhaps out of religious conflicts. Perhaps because they like the excitement of it all. Perhaps whatever ...

3) The TG detransitioner. Tried and failed. Alternatively, tried and didn't like it. May still identify as a gender queer, TG, CD, etc.

I will cheerfully admit to throwing the first and last under the bus. I do so even though my basic philosophy tends to be libertarian. (I.e., in American terms, do whatever the hell you want to as long as it doesn't blow my life up.) Unfortunately, failures of both types inflame anti-TS sentiments in several quarters. These are as diverse as certain religious groups, political groups, feminists of various types, segments of the medical community, and others. The utility in condemning these detransitioners and creating distance is to distinguish between these people versus those who have real medical needs (i.e., TS), therefore protecting our access to transition. Some people are distinctly uncomfortable with condemning any sort of detransition. Frankly, I am discomfited more by those who improperly impute moral motivations to those such as me, when we actually are speaking to different points.

The condemnation is pretty obvious to most people when it comes to the first category. Even those pleading compassion the most tend to cheerfully toss the Charles Kanes of the world under the bus. But those in the third category? The conflict over what appears to be morals based condemnation is a little more complicated here. I actually may have some personal issues with some scenarios in this category. I have no problem distinguishing those from the utility argument, however, and have no problem publicly decrying the failed transition from a policy and effects standpoint, whatever I may or may not do in private from a personal standpoint.

But pity the poor TS detransitioner! Literally. Because not only have they f****d up, they still have a problem to deal with. Often the exact same problem – transition. I do not see the need to distance myself from these. But the utility arguments are still there for condemning the failure, though they run in other directions. Specifically, that they argue for better and more transition support! I have no problem condemning screw-ups as such. Poor planning – when it IS poor planning – should be condemned. Lack of preparation should be condemned. Lying your way through a system designed to protect you when those protections would have headed off your issues should be condemned. Etc.

Just my take on the world. What's yours?

[whowhatwhen]

In all fairness I meant in general not just in regards to de-transition, there was that case a while back about the transwoman allegedly standing to pee and many people here were misgendering her on purpose.

There is too many shades of gray here and gender identity is way too complex for people to say "told you so" after the fact.
What remains is that some may still be transgender but not to the degree requiring transition yet the community will push them away because it likes to pretend that mistakes aren't made.

IIRC Most transpeople do not regret transition and those that do mostly regret it only because of the loss they've suffered and the shit society heaps on them.
Human beings are way too complex and you can't put in any sort of system that will be 100% foolproof.

[LeaP]

What you may have meant with the non-transition items is off-topic.

Complexity isn't an excuse to avoid making judgments, it necessitates making proper judgments.

Your comment on mistakes and pretense is exactly the kind of moral attribution I was talking about.

I see TS gender identity as pretty straightforward. TG, not so much.

[whowhatwhen]

For someone who does detransition who are we to say that it wasn't the correct thing to do at the time?
They made a judgement that they thought was correct and in the end it turned out to be wrong, maybe I'm just and odd f***er but in the end all I want is for everyone to be happy.

If TS identity was that straightforward then you wouldn't have as many late transitioners, it takes just as much introspection to realize you're not TS.

Maybe it's just me then?
I think I have a much, much more liberal view of this whole thing than like 90% of people here.

[Michelle789]

Me personally
I am currently in RLE and am scheduled to see a doctor about hormones next Thursday. I feel 100% sure about being on the TG spectrum and 99% sure about being TS. I have never been a successful man like Charles Kane, and I am not late onset because I have had GD symptoms since childhood. I have considered the possibility of being a "failed man", but I feel like my CDing and female identity are too persistent and consistent to be a "failed man". This possibility went out the window two months ago.


I have considered the possibility that I might be a "failed crossdresser" - meaning at the least case I am still some kind of crossdresser or TG or other gender variant - meaning that the female identity is real but I somehow failed at the man part of being a crossdresser. But for a strong bottom who could never get aroused by women even when given the opportunity, and shows no desire to be a man even part time, I highly doubt it. That possibility has really gone out the window at least a month ago.

My bigger question right now is my sexual orientation - am I straight, lesbian, bisexual, asexual, or pansexual? This is the one real tossup in my life. Although I'm leaning more towards straight each day, with possibility of being a bottom in a lesbian relationship. I am definitely a bottom - I have no doubts about that. The possibility that I am not attracted to men is about to go out the window.

Successful men (e.g. Charles Kane)

I definitely see reasons to throw the Charles Kanes of the world under the bus. They had no gender identity conflict whatsoever, no traces of femininity, and no history of crossdressing. These are 100% men who during a midlife crisis thought that transition would solve their problems. They often sought no help from therapists, or lied to therapists and gatekeepers to get hormones and surgeries. Most TSes and other gender variants knew since childhood.

Sorry, I have no pity for these people.

Late onset GD (different from early onset GD, late transitioner)

I do pity the few TSes who actually do not see gender dysphoria show up until very late in life, and to have them lumped with the Charles Kanes is awful. I feel like people should take responsibility to figure out themselves.

My hats are off to anyone who figures out early enough in the transition process that transition is not for them.

I do have pity for the late onset TSes who detransition and are not able to accept themselves as being TS.

Failed men

I do pity these people, although they are rare. They are real people, my therapist has dealt with a few of them in her life. Unlike the Charles Kanes of this world, who are typically very manly men all their lives before they decide to mistakenly transition, these people formed weak, sporadic female identities as kids, and typically have sporadic crossdressing, and are typically not good at being men. This is usually caused by childhood trauma or misandry in our culture. From my therapist's experience most of them figure it out rather quickly before even going on hormones. Usually attending TG meetings and finding that they do not identify with other people anywhere on the TG spectrum. Like the successful man, they realize they fit no where on the TG spectrum. They realize they need to work on how to be men. In a way, it's a reverse transition - a transition into manhood for these people.

Other TG Spectrum

I hear this happening sometimes, and although some have to transition deep or completely and then detransition, many people in this category actually go on HRT and quickly realize that HRT and transition are not for them, but they are still somewhere on the TG spectrum. They still identify with lots of things other TG and CDers say, they're just not TS. Many will still be crossdressers, genderqueers, gender fluids, or other gender variants. I think throwing them under the bus is a HUGE mistake, because it can be tricky to decide where on the gender spectrum you actually are. Especially with pressure by the TG community to transition sometimes, they may feel that they need to go all the way and transition when in fact a dual life or occasional CDing is best for them. There may be even people who would benefit from living full time as a woman but without hormones.

TS Detransitioners

I definitely have pity for most of them. I agree that most TS detransitioners do so becuase of what they face in society being against them, as well as losing family, friends, jobs, and marriages. However, once you have come out and lost everything, there is no going back. Sadly, you are not going to gain any of what you lost back. Even if you decide to detransition and take back coming out as being TS, people will always view you as a TS once you come out. I feel like once you have come out, or let the cat out of the bag, as they say, there is no going back.

Poor Planning
Sometimes we can't plan for everything. Sometimes the GD is so strong that we cannot afford to live another day as a male, or at least we need to live nights and weekends as a female even if we can handle the workday as a male. However to get nights as a female requires you to live near your job, so you're not spending it in traffic. This is a real issue in L.A. and in most major cities and metropolitan areas, although I'd say it's a double whammy in L.A. since you can spend 1-2 hours each way in traffic easily just getting across the city itself. I'm not counting Riverside or OC, just L.A., L.B., S.M., and SFV.

Life doesn't always go according to plan. And finding a good, stable, LGBT friendly company often requires you to expand your geographic scope. If you're single than you can always just move when you get your job. But what about those who have family or S.O. ties - not everyone can afford to move. Some of us have to suck up spending our nights in traffic as a male. Some of us might be asked by an S.O. to present as male for certain occasions, especially to see in laws. Some of us might be asked to not go on HRT so we can maintain the male sex drive. I suppose that someone who lives full time as a woman but is not on hormones and actually needs hormones could still feel like crap because her body is getting the wrong hormones, and therefore she might feel a need to detransition when in reality she needed estrogen.

Some of us might detransition before coming out at work so that we can maintain our jobs.

All of this only delays the inevitable - transition.

Lying to get what you want

Given the gatekeeping nature of many therapists, I have heard of true TSes lying to get hormones and surgeries. This was especially true 20-30 years ago when you had to be Blanchard's "classical" TS - effeminate as a child, and solely attracted to men, and no autoeroticism - to be considered a TS. Many late transitoners (but early onset dysphoria) lied and pretended to be solely attracted to men and denied autoeroticism because back then being attracted to women and engaging in autoeroticism meant the gatekeepers would not believe you were TS, but rather a man with a fetish. Even today, people sometimes have to lie and say they know they're definitely TS even when there is still some doubt, just so they can get hormones quickly.

Keeping others happy
I believe the largest category of detransitioners are truly TS who decided to detransition to please others. To save a marriage, or re-establish family connections. Like I said earlier, there is no going back when you come out, so sadly if you come out as trans, and than say that you're not trans and detransition, I wish you good luck in getting back your lost family, friends, SO, or job.

Lack of self acceptance
It is very easy to say you will detransition because you're not TS - and it is easy to say you're not TS when you really are TS - because you are still fighting yourself. I believe most of the time if you are fighting yourself, you won't transition until you stop fighting yourself. But I suppose that some detransitioners are still fighting themselves and might transition years or decades later.

I cannot think of very many cases where I would not pity a detransitioner. Most of the time people detransition for lack of self-acceptance, society's pressure to be a man, trying to keep others happy, and not knowing themselves (e.g. failed man, CDer or somewhere else on TG spectrum but not TS). I really only have no pity for people like Charles Kane who were obviously never TS and lied to themselves and others because a their lives came apart during a midlife crisis and they thought that transition would solve their problems.

[LeaP]

Michele, I appreciate your effort at addressing the complexity here.

[Kathryn Martin]

1) The mistaken detransitioner. These are those who, by their own admission, should never have transitioned and publicly disavow any connection to the trans world. Charles Kane would be an example in this category. They may have thought they were TS, though they may have come to this realization only after transition.

2) The TS detransitioner. Tried and failed. May or may not try again. Failed perhaps from lack of preparation or opposition. Perhaps for financial reasons. Perhaps to self-sacrifice for a SO. Perhaps out of religious conflicts. Perhaps because they like the excitement of it all. Perhaps whatever ...

3) The TG detransitioner. Tried and failed. Alternatively, tried and didn't like it. May still identify as a gender queer, TG, CD, etc.

So here are my responses:

1. How can you think you are TS. Is that something outside of a medical condition which reveals itself through complete psycho-sexual inversion. Try to de-construct both the symptoms of being transsexed and the you pretty much realize that what you are talking about is men and women who have bodies that are disabled. If, and that is really the big IF your experience of self is that your body is disabled and not congruent with your self experience then the idea that one could think that one is TS to find out one is not is so totally bizarre it defies description. Those people need to have their heads examined. They live in a complete delusion. I have zero respect for these people, I think they do a lot of harm to transsexed people.

2. See above regarding the symptoms. Failure of transition in this instance is often instigated by external factors which means the agency of the person trying to transition is diminished, by medical conditions, lack of funds, family pressure or the like. When on another thread I spoke of certainty and absence of tentativeness it is the latter that befalls those that surrender their agency to such external pressures. In this context transitioning is ill conceived, because if you cannot marshall your own life and biography then external pressures are impactful. Badtranny always says that transition is not for the faint of heart, this is the reason why. The injury these people do themselves is extraordinary and they have my empathy, I would go, and have gone to the end for the world for them to encourage them to take agency of their lives and to prevail. Transitioning requires that you are aware of these external pressures and have taken steps to deal with them head on when they arrive. If you will not take your spouses, children and friends with you on your transition journey then you are a fool, and if they refuse to walk with you then understand that they make a choice that is not yours.

3. These are the ones that give it a whirl. They are delusional, crossdressers gone to seed. Yikes, no empathy whatsoever. Make your bed and sleep in it - with glee!

[whowhatwhen]

You do realize that there are more shades between CD and those who pursue transition right?
Chances are if their brain cannot run correctly on the new hormone they'll stop, done, system working as intended.

For those who go further and stop during RLE, then again, system working as intended.
Beyond that I have no idea because I don't presume to e-diagnose someone's motivation and mental state.

I'm willing to bet that the popular "solution" to the few who detransition is a hilarious number of gatekeepers who expect you to model June Cleaver.

[Michelle789]

Whowhatwhen has a valid point - most people who aren't TS stop before they realize they made a mistake. They stop HRT or RLE if either of them aren't working. Keep in mind that some of us, although rare, need HRT but not RLE, and others need RLE, but not HRT, although most true TSes need both HRT and RLE.

[LeaP]

1) it is bizarre, Kathryn. And it DOES harm transsexed people, which is my utilitarian argument. But you don't say how that happens. Care to take a crack at that?

2) Agreed on basic concepts, but the judgement need not be personal or harsh. We are all fools, at least at times.

3) Perhaps they are, but isn't the utilitarian argument the same as for #1?

[whowhatwhen]

Yeah, that one person who detransition completely invalidates all other successful cases, yep.
Gotta keep the rep up with the cis folk because sure as hell there are no delusional transitioned people either.

Let's try this, late transitioners can tell us why #1 doesn't apply to them.

[Michelle789]

#1 are completely delusional.

#2 face obstacles from the world, personal circumstances, and denial.

#3 fall somewhere on the TG spectrum but not necessarily TS, and they need to accept themselves where they are on the TG spectrum as much as a TS needs to accept where they are. A TS can think they are a CD or non TS TG, and a CD or non TS TG can think they are TS. Part of the questioning process is to figure out where we fall on the spectrum. No one is delusional for trying to understand themselves or figure themselves out. #3 definitely does not harm the trans community - we all need to figure out where on the spectrum we fall. Sorry, I cannot call #3 delusional, and realistically most non-TS TG or CDers will stop transition before there is actually a need to detransition.

More than detransitioners in any category, there are FAR more true TSes who don't transition, who need to transition, out of denial, lack of self acceptance, family, pleasing others, financial circumstances.

[LeaP]

Yeah, that one person who detransition completely invalidates all other successful cases, yep.
Gotta keep the rep up with the cis folk because sure as hell there are no delusional transitioned people either.

Let's try this, late transitioners can tell us why #1 doesn't apply to them.

Scorn doesn't become you.

The ask, though, is fair enough.

I didn't bypass the system, I submitted myself to it. Took some heat here for that, in fact. I haven't pursued transition, I've fought it. I didn't isolate myself from other TS, I've sought them for insight. I resolved co-morbid conditions - much of what passes for GD - BEFORE starting hormones. My identity is female, not male. It has never been male. I'm not looking at transition as a way to solve any problems but one, and I expect transition to result in yet more problems.

Could I be delusional? Sure! But the pattern doesn't fit the #1 types much, does it?

[KellyJameson]

Philosophically de-transitioners are both bad and good for transsexuals.

There should never be someone that de-transitions and the only reason it happens is someone who was not transsexual was allowed to transition, so it is a failure of checks and balances.

It is becoming increasingly easy to transition provided someone has the money to do so and even the money aspect is disappearing with socialized medicine and I can easily see many of the costs being picked up by health care in the not to distant future.

The transitioners age will also go down as it becomes accepted practice to block puberty. The suicide rate should also go down as transitioning becomes more acceptable, available and affordable.

I believe there will be an inverse relationship between transsexual suicides and de-transitioners, where the suicides go down and the de=transitioners will go up and for the same reason. Ease of transitioning.

There are many reasons to transition that have nothing to do with being a woman but simply wanting to be one without that "knowing" that transsexual woman "know" as being a woman.

It is paradoxical how hard transsexual woman fight for their identity when so many are willing to throw theirs away.

I think we value gender identity higher because we were prevented from knowing it as being able to live as we know ourselves to be right from the very beginning and so know the pain and costs of having lived this way, where those that have always known it seem not to value it because they have no sense of having lived without gender identity which is bascially living identityless which takes you into mental illness.

A de-transitioner creates through their transitioning the same suffering that the transsexual seeks to escape by transitioning so perversely they risk making themselves mentally ill.

For the transsexual, transitioning is experienced as a healing but for someone that is not they are actually making themselves sick on every level. No woman wants the experience of testosterone dominance because it is unnatural to experience it.

Personally I think the idiots get what they deserve and maybe there will be a lesson in there for humanity not to F... with gender unless you are actually trans, which leaves all sorts of wounds and scars across your life so it really is not that hard to diagnosis with a skilled gender therapist.

My concern is that de-transitioners become pawns used politically to make transitioning harder for the women that need it.

I follow a few de-transitioners on the internet and they are infected with blame for the system and there is some truth to this because if the checks and balances were there it would not have happened but those same checks and balances could cost a transsexual her life.

In the end transsexual women really never suffered from gender confusion but gender repression because the identity was always there from being born into it, where for whatever reason many seem to want to "play with gender"

A man filled with self loathing for being a man from all the hate he has absorbed could have his gender identity fractured and transitioning could offer the false promise of escape but self hate is not identity.

It reminds me of the prisoners dilemma.

[whowhatwhen]

Could I be delusional? Sure! But the pattern doesn't fit the #1 types much, does it?

That's part of it though, no one says "I'm delusional."
You followed the steps as intended, maybe they did as well, who knows?
In the end it all comes back to just how many more gatekeepers do you want to add?

I actually think it's kind of offensive the way that it's being put forward by people in this thread, mental health and gender identity issues are no joke and they chose them no less than we chose to be TS.
In fact I find it upsetting how so many here are finding it okay to toss them off as some kind of weirdo who was totally never one of us see I called it. Oh and that they deserve all the suffering they got too.

Besides, I think you're all forgetting that the biggest problem for the rights of transpeople is social conservatism and a lack of education.
But sure, let's just assume their life will forever remain in tatters never to be rebuilt.
Also not forgetting to tell them just what we think of them for daring to endanger our up till now superb rapport with the general public.

I've said some cold things in my life but damn you all have me beat here.

[Kimberly Kael]

I've said some cold things in my life but damn you all have me beat here.

Yup. Let's hear it for stepping on others who are down with only a vague theory that it might make our own lives easier.

The problem isn't that people who have detransitioned create social stigma against transsexuals. The problem is that transition is heavily stigmatized and always has been in our society, making life extraordinarily difficult for those who find themselves questioning their gender identity. If test driving a new identity wasn't hellishly complicated we'd all benefit.

[Badtranny]

I think Inna had it right some time ago when she posited that a certain amount of delusion is necessary for a successful transition. I would also submit that the same delusion would be necessary to do anything that requires stepping into the light from singing karaoke to auditioning for something. A measure of deluded self confidence is necessary for success in anything. Having said that, I have observed levels of delusion that were far beyond what would be necessary to do this thing we call transition.

I have pondered for quite some time why people seek to transition. My story is an old one, I didn't seek it, rather I was resigned to it. I think that could go for the majority of us, and even include those that decide against it in the end. In my business, I am never eager to promote those who clamor for the position because in my experience, the people who desperately want to be the boss, generally make very poor bosses. That is not always the case however and so it is with a transition-er, but I don't think there is any doubt that most of those who have blown into this forum over the years panting for their miraculous transition have faded away within a few months.

The internet has been a godsend to us, but it has also allowed an entire culture to grow around the idea of transition as an ideal. I think that people who live their lives online can very easily be swayed by the acceptance of a community such as this. The problem is a huge number of people on this forum have never done ANYTHING in public. How does someone who has never even cross dressed in daylight have any idea about a gender transition? They think they know so much because of the endless amount of information on the net, but most of what they know they've learned from other people who haven't done anything either.

Dudes think they must be chicks because they fantasize about other dudes or chicks with dicks. Those same dudes find community and camaraderie without all of the macho one up-manship and they are convinced they MUST be feminine. Well they may be, but they've never known a single gay man or another transsexual or even a very feminine man who is straight as an arrow and enjoys being a man very much thanks. Cross dressing is something you can do in secret but you cannot transition unless you get out and taste the experience. You don't put on a dress and become a woman, you put on the dress to show the world how you really feel about yourself, regardless of how they see you. This transition is an inside job. You have to feel it and then you have to accept it. Recently there is a danger of a lot of the inside work being done virtually instead of for real, and I see quite a bit of that here on this forum.

I predict a marked rise in de-transitions in the next couple of years due mainly to the influence of internet communities like this one. People don't realize that most of their new friends are not who they say they are and more insidiously, some people actually make decisions based on advice given by someone who has no idea what they're talking about. I've seen it happen here and nobody seems to care. This is not a safe place and you can't assume anything. Consider for example someone on the TS forum who contributes a lot, but has never met anyone else on this forum in real life. All of their pictures are solitary, and no other member has ever said they've met them.

All of this is of withering interest to me, but my point is this community can support somebody right into a de-transition because the poor person simply lacks any substantial Real Life Experience before they 'pull the pin'.

[mikiSJ]

I predict a marked rise in de-transitions in the next couple of years due mainly to the influence of internet communities like this one. People don't realize that most of their new friends are not who they say they are and more insidiously, some people actually make decisions based on advice given by someone who has no idea what they're talking about. I've seen it happen here and nobody seems to care. This is not a safe place and you can't assume anything. Consider for example someone on the TS forum who contributes a lot, but has never met anyone else on this forum in real life. All of their pictures are solitary, and no other member has ever said they've met them.

I don't really agree with the outcome Missy is predicting, but her setup is totally accurate. She has condensed the Allegory of the Cave into a brief paragraph succinctly describing the perfect knowledge some here espouse.

Aside from the fact that challenging anyone who 'de-transitions' (is that even a word?) is beyond your responsibility; what good does it do for our tiny obscure community to slice everything more finely that the last slice simply to prove the point that I am more me than you.

This whole discussion is ludicrous and does nothing to promote or ease the effort of those who are wandering the path to a new gender. And for those of you here who are totally happy with your confirmation - good for you. I suspect your number is not really all that large. If you ever have a twinge of doubt, isn't that the same, if only by degree, with those who you assign the label of 'de-transitioner'?

[Kathryn Martin]

Yeah, that one person who detransition completely invalidates all other successful cases, yep.
Gotta keep the rep up with the cis folk because sure as hell there are no delusional transitioned people either.

Let's try this, late transitioners can tell us why #1 doesn't apply to them.

The "mistaken de-transitioner" was the premise from which I said what I said. So from my perspective your response and question is non-sequitur. You are attempting to invalidate what I say by somehow suggesting that late transitioners are all mistaken. Explain!

Let me explain to you how those that de-transition hurt those that attempt transition and those that have fully transitioned. I have seen this operate and it's ugly.

Jack becomes Jackie and transitions. Jack then finds that the results of transition variously are too hard, not satisfactory, leave him lonely, destroy his family, make him destitute, leave him unattractive, were not what he expected etc. etc. Jack de-transitions and tells everyone that he made a mistake. Initially, Jack pronounces that living in a world in which we are not accepted for who we are it is impossible to flourish. He makes sure to shift his personal responsibility for his actions away from him by proclaiming that the world in which he lives is cruel and that he is the victim of that cruelty. He eventually comes to the conclusion if it walks like a man, talks like a man and looks like a man it must be a man. Sometimes Jack finds God and determines that His plan is the only only plan biologically speaking. In some cases he sets out on a crusade to ensure that his mistake must not be repeated by others and in some form of media or another pronounces his insights.

Now some time later Corinne or Kathryn come to the point where they must transition. They begin planning, they set some pieces in motion, they come out to their friends and family. Their friends and family are taken into confidence and are provided with information to assist them to process the emotional turmoil that comes with such a revelation. They go online, they come across the word "de-transition" and then they google it. They come across Jack"s pronouncements and they become unsure of Corinne or Kathryn's confidence in doing what they do. Because Corinne and Kathryn are really John and Arnold in their mind and emotions they feel compelled to warn Corinne and Kathryn. The pressure becomes relentless, they point out that Jack is to be respected and celebrated for his honesty with himself, that his insights are helpful in fact brilliant and that Corinne and Kathryn "don't have to do this to themselves". In the end they find that Corinne and Kathryn are delusional like Jack was, but he pulled himself up by his bootstraps but that Corinne and Kathryn cannot do so. They begin to turn away, feel the "tragedy of it all". Jack is their lifeline to not have to face the reality of Corinne and Kathryn.

What none of them ever consider is that Jack should not have done it in the first place because Jack just fancied prancing around in women's dresses.

One effing Jack!

[whowhatwhen]

The "mistaken de-transitioner" was the premise from which I said what I said. So from my perspective your response and question is non-sequitur. You are attempting to invalidate what I say by somehow suggesting that late transitioners are all mistaken. Explain!

Yeah, sorry about that.
In the morning that part I posted made no sense whatsoever.

The only thing I see about the rest is that who ever takes that guy seriously?
Not even crossdressers would listen to him let alone someone on the path to transition.

You can look at the sexchangeregret guy, sure he talks at all those NOM conferences but his personal efficacy is less than plastic wrap around an ogre's wang.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Unless you are a mind reader, its impossible to tell what motivates a person to transition or consider transition.

Transition is highly stigmatized. We are basically dehumanized and/or sexualized by a large part of the population.

But its not some crazy theory that detransitioners hurt transitioners
...simply consider the extreme.... if no one ever ever detransitioned, and everyone said it improved their lives, then it would be impossible to argue against it...

but that's not the case...

we can never really know the inside of a persons head or the details of their lives, and so we are left with imperfect and overly broad categories or labels that are modestly helpful to at least describe some stereotypical things that happen..

also we are just a message board...does anyone know (outside of this board) people that were cd's gone wild?? I don't. How many cd's have a couple hundred grand and like pain and suffering for their femme time??

Also, if I can't throw a fool that rushed in under the bus, what should I do??? stay silent??

how can I use the experience of people like sexchangeregretguy or Charles Kane as a positive for transitioning transsexuals? how is his journey helpful to those of us that were desperate to transition against all odds?? how does sexchangeregret or a Charles kane video which is easily found help a person trying to explain to her mom or boss that what they are doing is necessary???

how can I explain that HE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ME while not throwing him under the bus...

what can I possibly do for that person after the fact?? His very existence puts my identity in doubt to others...that's the hard truth.
How can me "supporting" him in the court of public opinion help him and others?

doesn't every transsexual say don't transition unless you have to?? literally.... wtf more do you want us to do??

there are poor souls in this world...they are everywhere... they always were and always will... should I worry about every one of them?? if one of them shares a problem with meshould I embrace their struggle as my own??
How do I explain to somebody that many of these people don't even share the same problem as me!!! they just idolized my problem and glommed onto to deal with their very different issues...

gosh it would be nice to just vote for world peace and happiness but seriously tell me what I should say to someone about a detransition that is not going to make their eyes glaze over or make me look like an idiot.

[Michelle.M]

I don’t throw anyone under the bus for detransitioning, changing their mind, taking a detour, taking a break or whatever. Gender is a lot more fluid than most people want to admit, and gender expression is part of that. Do what you want, be who you are, and let’s all get on with our lives.

That said, I have a serious problem with anyone who changes their game plan, i.e. the “regretters”, those who change lanes or go back to their old lives and then decide they need to vilify the trans community just so they can feel better about their own mistake. To them I say “Man up, son! Own your own problems and stay away from us!”

People like Walt Heyer (and his handler, Family Research Council) get no slack from me. I’ll throw them under the bus and then climb aboard and put it in gear myself! But for the rank and file detransitioners I’m just glad that they’re taking an active role in their own lives and making changes as they see fit. No criticism from me.


I think Inna had it right some time ago when she posited that a certain amount of delusion is necessary for a successful transition. I would also submit that the same delusion would be necessary to do anything that requires stepping into the light from singing karaoke to auditioning for something. A measure of deluded self confidence is necessary for success in anything.

That’s a very keen observation. I was listening to a radio program the other day about business startups. The report stated that the statistics show that the vast majority of business startups fail, yet people try anyway. They do so because there is at least a chance of success (and none at all if you don’t try). The report went on to say that an entrepreneur must believe, in spite of the facts, that success is possible. There must be a heathy dose of fantasy to achieve a successful outcome. There’s only a problem when the dream and the reality are out of proportion.

Aside from those practical issues that others have identified in this thread, I think that’s the main cause of detransition and regret.

[LeaP]

Yup. Let's hear it for stepping on others who are down with only a vague theory that it might make our own lives easier.


Over-broad. There are some examples of condemnation based on personal feelings, but also thoughtful contributions on the real impact that detransitions have. I said it in the OP and will say it again - I don't like the attribution of motives in these discussions. My goal is to get a constructive conversation on the real-world effects of detransitions, for good or bad - not to advance ideas out of motives for things like personal benefit.


...
You followed the steps as intended, maybe they did as well, who knows?
In the end it all comes back to just how many more gatekeepers do you want to add?

I actually think it's kind of offensive the way that it's being put forward by people in this thread, mental health and gender identity issues are no joke and they chose them no less than we chose to be TS.
In fact I find it upsetting how so many here are finding it okay to toss them off as some kind of weirdo who was totally never one of us see I called it. Oh and that they deserve all the suffering they got too.

...
I've said some cold things in my life but damn you all have me beat here.

In many cases in my first category, the detransitioners themselves said they bypassed the system. The posts right here in cd.com concerning bypassing assessment and advocating a do-what-you-will informed consent model for everything from hormones to surgery are legion.

Your gatekeepers question goes to one possible solution. This thread, however, is focused on articulating the problem. Moreover, the comment is a strawman - the reference is to older gatekeeping protocols and, by appealing by inference to their known deficiencies, suggests no solution is possible. This after rejecting (and to support rejecting) the thread's premise! Turning comments on standards into suggestions of gatekeeping that no-one has made ... Nice (rhetorical) try! FWIW, I don't necessarily see gatekeeping as the solution.

Re: coldness - See my response above on attribution of motive (including intent.) There is a huge difference between condemning the person and condemning an act. The first speaks to general principles, the second to personal judgements, something I tried to distinguish in the OP. I've tried to keep the discussion in the principles arena as it applies to public effect and policy. It can feel cold, even when people manage to keep their personal feelings in check, in large part because such discussions require examples. There are endless analogies with other issues where the same dynamic plays out.




... what good does it do for our tiny obscure community to slice everything more finely that the last slice simply to prove the point that I am more me than you.

This whole discussion is ludicrous and does nothing to promote or ease the effort of those who are wandering the path to a new gender. ... If you ever have a twinge of doubt, isn't that the same, if only by degree, with those who you assign the label of 'de-transitioner'?

The ONLY people that can speak with authority on many aspects of transsexuality are transsexuals.

Nothing in this is about who is a true transsexual - NOTHING. I went out of my way to keep my categories, at least, to the self-identified. You are taking the condemnation of failure reasons into condemnation of the individual and, by that, into a further-removed implication of elitism. I acknowledged that in certain cases I might indeed be doing that (making moral judgments, that is, not being elitist), based on my own moral views, but mentioned it to warn off the temptation. Again, I know this is hard to do! Some of the responses are more personal than topical - no matter what the specific view, frankly.

IF an individual is thoughtful, they will take a caution (say about transition planning) seriously. If some of the generalized advice they read doesn't apply to their situation, it's on them to figure that out. Having done that, if they hear a discussion about failure to plan disasters and take that personally when it doesn't even apply, well ... I don't know what to say.

Doctors are held to care standards. They can vary from them with justification. When they do so and things go well, or even if they don't but the deviation was justifiable, no issue. When they screw up, they are justly condemned, at times literally (imprisoned.)


Yeah, sorry about that.
In the morning that part I posted made no sense whatsoever.

The only thing I see about the rest is that who ever takes that guy seriously?


All it takes is the right person in the right position to do major damage. Paul McHugh's has been reverberating for decades, from initiating the cascade of gender clinic shutdowns in the 70s and 80s, to the Catholic Church's stance on transgender medicine, to his influence in government, to the present ... see his Wall Street Journal article this June, for example. Another is Ray Blanchard.

[whowhatwhen]

What?
Where are the threads suggesting people go DIY and bypass the system?

The only place I see it mentioned is in other places and even then the person going that route doesn't have access to the proper care.

Just like the mythical "you go grrrrl" posts people keep complaining about, they don't exist.
Reading other's experiences is important and imo the most valuable part of a place like this, but I don't remember reading anyone advocating transition.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

This whole discussion is ludicrous and does nothing to promote or ease the effort of those who are wandering the path to a new gender. And for those of you here who are totally happy with your confirmation - good for you. I suspect your number is not really all that large. If you ever have a twinge of doubt, isn't that the same, if only by degree, with those who you assign the label of 'de-transitioner'?


nice try...
No its not the same, even by many degrees...

We are talking about actions, responsibility and consequences and you are talking about trannier than thou malarkey..... its interesting because you do the very thing you accuse others of...do you even see it?? what gives you the ability to read into the motives of people that express frustration over how people detransition and especially how that impacts us in the cisgender community .. where do you come off telling me that if I have a problem it's because I am trying to prove some made up point..
how the heck would you know?

as far as your whole "good for you there aren't that many of you anyway" comment i'd say you huwt my wittle feewlings but that wouldn't be true.

[becky77]

In my limited experience peoples GD or level of Transexualism is different, is it possible those that have it the strongest and are so sure are a little hard on those that have greater doubt, but have maybe gone through the system, passed the gatekeepers etc.
I can think of one person (not on here) that I have my doubts over, she has been through all the proper channels done the RLE and is soon to be having SRS. I can't speak for someones inner turmoil but I wouldn't be surprised if she detransitions later on and I could only pity her if that was the case. Surely not everyone that does it is like Charles Kane??
My fear is that some people have their own demons coupled with some level of Transgenderism. How likely is it that a therapist concludes it to be gender identity, it's so complex an issue. The only people I would condem are those that choose to poison the rest of us, admit you made a mistake or couldn't do it and disappear quietly.
I agree with Melissa's statement "The problem is a huge number of people on this forum have never done ANYTHING in public. How does someone who has never even cross dressed in daylight have any idea about a gender transition?" I think it's dangerous not to have that experience before proceeding, you may well have female identity and be totally TS but if when push comes to shove you can't hack the real world, what then?
I read these threads and wonder if I should even reply, I'm in transition and full of my own doubts, I question myself constantly, it can be a pretty shitty world out there and the future frightens me. I could do with some support sometimes, but it feels more like the opposite at times. I realise there must be a lot of deluded or bogus people pass through here, there is way too much suspicion on here what does it take to be believed? I honestly don't know what to think, I agree it's irresponsible to encourage someone, but it doesn't help to fill them with more doubts and confusion also. I hear often that being TS has an element of Self diagnosis, if thats the case is it any surprise when some diagnoses incorrectly?
What advise is good advise when you don't even know if that person is the real deal? Should we be so quick to judge when we don't actually know the facts?
So someone detransitioned, are you so quick to dimiss them when you have no idea what their story is? I don't see why it would harm me, Mr Kane shouldn't be taken serious by anyone and if there are mistakes and it makes therapists more careful, doesn't that protect all of us?
Those that detransition most likely did plan everything perfectly, had the money for the hormones and certain surgeries, one day they say tada i'm a girl and the real reality hits home. Those are the fools. But the ones in catagory 2 and 3, as Corinne says, too many shades of grey. If you transition and your not full of doubts and fear, well that can't be normal can it? But with that doubt and fear some will fall and some will realise they got it wrong.
Everyone knows Transition is a risk.

[LeaP]

What?
Where are the threads suggesting people go DIY and bypass the system?

Just like the mythical "you go grrrrl" posts people ....

I never said anyone was suggesting going that route or advocating transition, for that matter. What I do see is an endless stream of inquiries on how to go about getting hormones on your own. There are also frequent references to people doing things on their own. Frequent references to people bypassing any kind of real therapeutic assessment. Often these are presented as if they were working within the system and standards of care, when in fact they are complete negations of the intent.

[Marleena]

Sometimes reading the threads in this section make me want to step in front of a moving bus.:D

That said I mostly agree with the OP and Michelle.M's post saves me typing my own thoughts. The longer I'm here the less suffering I see the better, even if it means detransitioning for somebody or avoiding transition altogether (whatever works). I realize not everybody can or needs to make it to the Holy Grail.

[LeaP]

Thoughtful post with a lot of themes, Becky.

On the topic of self-doubt, I like Kaitlyn's answer a lot. Doubt can be viewed as irrelevant to the discussion because everyone has doubts. I could give a list, but there's no way any such list could be exhaustive. Because doubt is universal, actions, responsibility, and consequence, as Kaitlyn put it so well, are king (or queen!). And when it comes to action, responsibility, and consequence, few things in life put more more on the line than transition. It's why Misty likes to talk about transitioners and not theoretical transsexuals. Why Kathryn likes to talk about agency. And it provides additional context to this thread, which is about consequences.

Your remark about strength is off the mark, though. Transition is unquestionably hard, but strength (courage, etc.) as a personal quality isn't necessarily the source of resilience that get people through. I feel far more vulnerable than I ever have in many ways. Less brave, less inclined to challenge and conquer. Yet I am more resilient. I get up quicker when knocked down. I keep going (for now! ... ask me again in a couple of months). In my case, I chalk it up to being better, or finally grounded in my own sense of self.

Taking your acquaintance at face value, she is completely unlike Kane. I might pity her failure too, but assuming (as I likely would) that she had any responsibility for the failure, I would call her on it. Were I close enough, I hope I would then help her over it. But the failures need to be called, lest they recur. Of course, one position - oft taken by those post-transition, in fact - is that they have no credibility anyway, so perhaps it's pointless. But they keep trying! Now THERE'S strength! I have a friend who was warned about being too free with telling friends, family, and others about her status, to no avail. There were consequences. She now warns others. And so it goes ...

A therapist's JOB is to distinguish co-morbidities and side-effect conditions from more fundamental issues like identity. It is VERY well and widely understood that gender issues manifest for a variety of reasons other than gender identity itself. This is why I'm appalled that any practitioner would jump to the conclusion of trans-anything without having conducted a differential diagnosis, which is part and parcel of how such things are parsed, diagnosed, and treated.

Take on-line advice with a huge grain of salt. It took a while, but I developed real-world contacts over time, including some from this site. Then, once you understand THEIR reality, you know both their biases as well as the limits of how far to take such advice. I agree with Misty that this can be a dangerous place. Helpful. Sometimes a godsend, but potentially dangerous as well.

You ask about dismissing someone before you know what their story is. It's a fair question. Let me take it as-is. One reason is that transition failure is every bit as monumental as some are wont to describe it. Simply put, the standard for going through transition once and only once is that in transitioning you just put every bit of credibility you have in play, with everyone, everywhere. Detransition and you have forever compromised it, perhaps even destroyed it. And that relates to not just things like your ability to plan or persevere, but to your identity itself. Circumstances? Under which circumstances do natal women turn to becoming men? (There are a few outside of the trans world, but if you thought transsexuality was rare ...).

There is no such thing as perfect planning or preparation though, again, failures (or excuses) in such things that lead directly to consequences are rightly condemned. People can collapse under the weight of their own failures - but detransition isn't the inevitable consequence. What do I make of someone who says they had to transition or die ... detransitions and, well, doesn't? Sure, I'll pity them, too. But I'll also rail against the personal and systemic failures that enabled such a life-destroying f***up. (And Lord save me from same.)

[Jonianne]

......My goal is to get a constructive conversation on the real-world effects of detransitions, for good or bad......

I understand how those opposed to anyone transitioning (especially for religious reasons) would use detransitioners of any ilk as an example to point fingers and it doesn't matter what their reasons were. The ones (detransitioners) I really have an issue with are ones like Jerry Leach, who as a so-called "ex-transsexual", spent his life in a ministry against the LGBT community. I don't think he holds much sway in the medical or insurance industry, but the real-world damage he has done to individuals is tremendous, speaking from personal experience. I could not throw any of those who quietly go back to the way they were before, 'under the bus'. In any community there are going to be bad examples, that those opposed will use as proof they were 'right'. I think it is more important to focus on the successful transitioners and point to them when others try to detract us and harm us by trying to withhold proper medical care.

In the right context, someone who detransitions, could be a good effect, ie. the system worked (as long as it wasn't too late). For those who have doubts, they may be reluctant to detransition if they really need to, because they know they will be condemned and thrown under the bus. I think giving those honest individuals a free pass out, without our community putting them to more shame, is more profitable for all.

[Kathryn Martin]

I read these threads and wonder if I should even reply, I'm in transition and full of my own doubts, I question myself constantly, it can be a pretty shitty world out there and the future frightens me. I could do with some support sometimes, but it feels more like the opposite at times. I realise there must be a lot of deluded or bogus people pass through here, there is way too much suspicion on here what does it take to be believed? I honestly don't know what to think, I agree it's irresponsible to encourage someone, but it doesn't help to fill them with more doubts and confusion also. I hear often that being TS has an element of Self diagnosis, if thats the case is it any surprise when some diagnoses incorrectly?

Becky, there are doubts and then there are other doubts. What the nature of the doubt is is the crucial question. I think that those that transition (and I mean the day that you go full time ready to take on the world not the day you go to your therapist or the day you start hormones) must have come to the point where the nature of who they are is no longer a question. If you have any doubt about being a woman or a man, if you think that you may be a woman or a man and transition then really you're just giving it a whirl. Because essentially you are saying "let's see if I like it". Your nature is at that point in time contingent and not fully fathomed.

If you doubt whether you can make it through, whether you will bring your loved ones with you, whether you can sustain severe financial loss simply by transitioning then welcome to the club. We would be inhuman if we did not have those doubts. And if you feel the need to de-transition for those reason I will stand with you and do what I can to help you be yourself.


So someone detransitioned, are you so quick to dimiss them when you have no idea what their story is?

Those that detransition most likely did plan everything perfectly, had the money for the hormones and certain surgeries, one day they say tada i'm a girl and the real reality hits home.

Except for what I have qualified above the question is not what their specific circumstances are. The Mr. Kane's of this world are the example that we are confronted with by everyone. They are the reason you are doubted when you say that you must transition. You say Mr. Kane should not be taken seriously, yet when someone asks you why? or why now? it is the Messrs. Kanes that they have in mind. And when they tell if you must risk everything then it the Messrs. Kane that are whispering into their ears. They will think and sometimes say that you are risking everything for a lark because the Messrs. Kane went before you and it turned out a lark for him. And when health services says you are a man when they assess you and deny you or your are a woman who is not entitled to a hysterectomy because you are taking testosterone and are causing your symptoms then it is Messrs. Kane sitting in their office and tells them what to write.

[becky77]

If you doubt whether you can make it through, whether you will bring your loved ones with you, whether you can sustain severe financial loss simply by transitioning then welcome to the club. We would be inhuman if we did not have those doubts. And if you feel the need to de-transition for those reason I will stand with you and do what I can to help you be yourself.

That's my point, but that seems a change of stance from the earlier answers. And some (I have met these people) are doing it for what I believe are the wrong reasons, just my opinion and I hope I'm wrong. I don't know how much I trust these therapists, I believe it's too easy to tell them what they want to hear. Yes, I totally agree that someone who bends the system can't be defended, but what of those that truly think that is their path and the therapist doesn't find the real underlying problem? I'm sure it happens and those people will detransition and it will be awful hard on them.
I'm speaking from inexperience as I don't know anyone who has detransitioned, so perhaps my answers are invalid. All i'm saying is, that I won't be throwing them under the bus unless they are proven fools.
You have to remember your system in the US is different to ours here, we use the NHS and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I think there is too many coming through a small establishment, waiting lists are huge and because appts. are so hard to come by there is almost a statement on your entry papers, words to the effect of "you better be TS and not waste our time", so before you get the help you need you have to almost convince yourself you are TS.
To get that referral in the first place is a pathetic screening process. You see 2 psychiatrists (some don't even do that now, it's can be just a doctors referral) they rule out depression, rule out mental health then off you go you're trans. I'm not saying the system doesn't work, just that I can see some people will go through misguided because of the pressure that GIC are under. Is it any different from going to the hospital and the staff are so busy, the waiting lists so long that some people are misdiagnosed? We hear stories all the time that someones Cancer has been missed because it's been diagnosed as something else. These are just people and people are fallible.

Lea
"Your remark about strength is off the mark, though. Transition is unquestionably hard, but strength (courage, etc.) as a personal quality isn't necessarily the source of resilience that get people through."

I was referring to the strength of your GD and therefore certainty. Some people are born with such strong GD that they won't make it to puberty without screaming for change. Others it doesn't gain momentum until much later in life. Some on here are so certain and others very much balancing on the cusp, one can't associate with the other. I can't understand why someone won't climb a ladder because I don't have a fear of heights, but that shouldn't stop me empathising with there plight.

[Kathryn Martin]

......words to the effect of "you better be TS and not waste our time", so before you get the help you need you have to almost convince yourself you are TS.

To get that referral in the first place is a pathetic screening process. You see 2 psychiatrists (some don't even do that now, it's can be just a doctors referral) they rule out depression, rule out mental health then off you go you're trans.

This sounds slightly harsh with respect to the "words" there is a lot of wisdom in the stance that you describe your health care system takes. With one exception: I think that no amount of self convincing can create the medical condition of being transsexed. I keep trying to make the point that being transsexed is not so much a matter self discovery but self actualization. One of the biggest problems is that self discovery with the assistance of a gender counselor tends to in more or less subtle ways consist of reinforcement of gender stereotypes with the patient increasingly walking through the glittering park of personal desire to be something else than they are, much in the way of having greener grass on the other side of the gender divide. But being transsexed really has nothing to do with that.

That is perfectly fine, but it is if you deconstruct it essentially a rearing up against gender stereotypes and prohibitions. Whether you call it gender creative, gender variant, gender rebel, queer or transgender it is not being transsexed. And it rarely leads to re-assignment surgery.

Transsexuals are very sure of their gender and in healing their bodies through hormones and SRS (or doing as much as they can in that respect for reasons of health concerns and lack of funding which is not at issue in the UK and Canada) the simply actualize who they are in the first place. This takes nothing away from the doubts discussed above. But for those that are, de-transitioning as a result of external pressures is a personal tragedy of unbelievable proportions.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

DOes anyone personally know anyone who has detransitioned?? the only one I know RE transitioned after a suicide attempt...it was early on but she had already had ffs and srs ...

she did not do a real life because she "didn't need to"

her detransition was a nightmare and was driven by anxiety and angst over her youngest daughter who would no longer spend time with her...

[becky77]

One of the biggest problems is that self discovery with the assistance of a gender counselor tends to in more or less subtle ways consist of reinforcement of gender stereotypes with the patient increasingly walking through the glittering park of personal desire to be something else than they are, much in the way of having greener grass on the other side of the gender divide. But being transsexed really has nothing to do with that.
Biggest problems? So you recognise it's a problem and the the said person "with the assistance of a gender counselor"could albeit by delusion be guided to the wrong choice? I believe it happens.
I don't want to get too deep into this as I can't see that we are actually disagreeing with each other?
My observation comes form talking to many Transgendered people that are stuck somewhere inbetween, they don't like and don't celebrate being Trans, they either try to bury it or wish for a life as a female. But are they truly TS? how many TS have been at that point in time, society doesn't make it easy either.
One friend I know is suffering greatly, she has a young family and is trying hard to maintain that but it's getting harder and harder. Her GD is uncontrollable and she is now using her referral to go to the specialists in London. She is already on hormones and such is her need I could see her in desperation transitioning. I think she believes it maybe her only option to stay sane, she certainly isn't able to think straight right now. It is her that I think of in this conversation, I think she is vulnerable to making the wrong choice, and I just hope the specialists diagnose properly, but if they don't......... I'm just saying I sympathise as I think it's a minefield. Comes back to experience, she doesn't go out in public, hasn't interacted with people as a woman. I know this isn't easy as once discovered etc, but go for a break, go to another town. Find out how it feels rather than how you think it feels. Maybe your right, comes full circle to planning again doesn't it!


.it was early on but she had already had ffs and srs ...

she did not do a real life because she "didn't need to"
Why didn't she need to Kaitlyn? She had FFS and SRS with no real life experience?

[Michelle.M]

DOes anyone personally know anyone who has detransitioned??

Not detransitioned (post surgery), but I know someone who stopped her RLE and went back to living as a man. She never really did feel comfortable in girl mode and concluded that her issues were not gender identity related. She (now he) is still in therapy and working to discover the real reason behind his issues.

[arbon]

DOes anyone personally know anyone who has detransitioned??

.

Only one person that I personally know but she transitioned over 20 years ago and onlly went back because she had become homeless and and things were really tough. Survival

But she did re-transition a few years ago and doing much better this time around

[LeaP]

That's my point, but that seems a change of stance from the earlier answers. ... I don't know how much I trust these therapists, I believe it's too easy to tell them what they want to hear. Yes, I totally agree that someone who bends the system can't be defended, but what of those that truly think that is their path and the therapist doesn't find the real underlying problem? ...

... I won't be throwing them under the bus unless they are proven fools.

Lea

I was referring to the strength of your GD and therefore certainty. ...

I need to (further) clarify the rhetorical device used for the thread title. I used the "throw under a bus" notion for several reasons, including thread-to-thread continuity, brevity, to introduce verbal lightness on a very serious subject (got some heat on that, but oh well), and finally, in reference to what actually happens in roasting those who fail - but also to introduce some distinctions. I made some in my OP, particularly distinguishing morals-based condemnations from other issues.

The difficulty people have - all of us have at times, honestly - in making such distinctions and deciding when and how to emphasize one of these concepts or combine several in any given case, is all over this thread. Your (or my) "proven fools" (and toss under the bus, or condemn) is someone else's sympathy case. Kathryn isn't contradicting herself, she is making the distinction between calling the failure and condemning the person.

I happen to have lucked into finding an incredible therapist. Going on 30 year's experience, tons of trans-whatever clients for decades from basket case misc. gender issues to childhood TS. She conducted intake Q&A for most of the first 2-3 sessions. The analysis, diagnosis, and treatment cycle extended for well over 9 months, most of it focusing on co-morbidities. We didn't discuss gender or, more accurately, she would not dive into that topic, for several months until the other issues had been dealt with. The answer was invariably "let's sort this out first and see if the gender feelings persist and what they look like." She doesn't overemphasize gatekeeping, but has turned away any number of clients who are, in her words, "hormone shopping."

I started pressing the topic about 7 months in as I came out of my (depressed) shell, and a month after that, when I had decided on HRT and asked her if she would write the letter, her answer was "of course," delivered with a smile. (Her response floored me, in fact, given the months of not even discussing the subject.) The word "transsexual" never left her lips in regard to me until about 18 months or so along,and it was a passing reference even then. Here's the key - not because she hadn't come to that conclusion long before, but because the point of the exercise was actually therapy - process and help - as much or more than diagnosis. I was, and am still, asked what I've done, what I want, how I feel, have I considered, might such-and-such be sufficient, what if, are you ready for such and such a consequence, etc.

After I moved to another region, I found a new therapist. Eyow! What a difference! In spite of having pretty good gender client exposure over the last 2-3 years, having largely taken over from the area's go-to therapist who left the area, she brings nothing to the table. I went for 5-6 sessions then went back to my first therapist, despite having to travel. I've also been to other practitioners throughout life for a variety of reasons, with similar mixed experiences.

So, while I've seen the stellar possibilities, I entirely agree with you that you can't simply trust a therapist. And you're right, the problem is two-sided, consisting of both incompetent therapists and disingenuous clients. I think it very difficult to fool a therapist who DOES conduct a rigorous differential diagnosis over an extended period, however. One would have to be not only an accomplished liar, but have sufficient knowledge of any number of specialty practice areas to pull it off, besides having to maintain consistency. But even that does happen.

Getting back to those who are truly convinced of the path and actually have other issues, I'll grant you that the capacity to fool one's self seems to be infinite sometimes, but it appears to be pretty rare for such to make it all the way to transition and, in particular, into surgeries. There are a lot of reasons for this which are irrelevant here, the point being that those who don't go that far then stop are RARELY condemned, especially by transsexuals! It comes up here regularly, and the response is invariably congratulatory, with praise and encouragement. I can recall one such in the last few weeks. But the detransitioner or the unprepared transitioner (there are some of those here, too) tends to get it with both barrels. But on the substance (in public, anyway) less on moral judgements. Transition is a pretty bright line.

I suppose either way it's getting tossed under the bus when it comes to this last. But the TS commitment to stressing realities is incredibly, and rightfully strong. I would have it no other way, because I need it.

[Starling]

My greatest fear is being alone, at my age; and I would rather live out my life as a an effed-up old man with old friends and loved ones than as a lonely, unloved woman.

:) Lallie

[Rianna Humble]

That is very interesting, Lallie, when I first sought professional help to get this transition under way, my words were similar but opposite to yours, I said that I would rather die a lonely old woman than live one more day as the man I have never really been.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Right Rianna.

I could not imagine my last thought being regretting that I never lived as myself. As much as I denied my nature over the years I couldn't ask for more "proof" about what I needed to do

[becky77]

I must admit that is my take on your statement too, I couldn't bare to die with that regret sitting so heavily on me. I would rather die having tried and failed, than not tried at all.
Maybe those old friends and family will still be with you?
Because if you feel that your life is not what it should be and your friends and family would abandon you if they knew, then they are they real friends? If you suspect your friends and family only like the person that you hide behind and thats not truly you, then in a way you are lonely, inside.

[Starling]

You know, I go back and forth by the hour. I live with almost overwhelming regret, over the fact I was born trans in an age of ignorance, intolerance and real danger of being declared insane; over denying my true nature for so long out of fear; over getting married (to a non-lesbian) for need of love. It's just that I'm already so effing old! Since Empress Lainie went to her reward, I may be the oldest non-transitioned woman on this thing. And with my medical situation, there's a good chance I'll wind up dying on one operating table or another (as I got perilously close to in 2012) in the not-too-distant future. I could be wrong about that, and if I were fifty instead of decades older, I guarantee I'd go ahead without much hesitation.

I was on the launch pad, ready to transition, just two years ago. On HRT, undergoing electrolysis, seeing a counselor and coming out to a few intimates. And I could still live as a woman now, if only two of my three major obstacles were to fall away. In that event, I wouldn't mind dying on the operating table under my real name, full of piss and estrogen, my last thoughts being of how wonderful the rest of my life could be with a little more of this, and a little less of that.

:) Lallie

[SassySal]

I am thinking that a thorough review of the examples listed at the end of this link, (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/Warning.html), should offer some useful insight into this most troubling of outcomes.

A more recent example can be found by 'googling' Christine Daniels, although I am afraid that most of the more pertinent details have been 'sterilized' for the purposes of political expediency. The facts remain that mistakes were made and the results were tragic.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

You know sal....I've read back through your posts and something is off...

I don't trust you

[arbon]

neither do I!

[Aprilrain]

DOes anyone personally know anyone who has detransitioned??

Can't say as I do, come to think of it.

My GF has had serious enough doubts about transition to cut her hair and purge all her clothes but she regretted doing it and grew her hair back out and bought more clothes. That was before I met her.

My ex-BF has gone on and off hormones a couple of times now but he never even came close to actually transitioning.

"It's a hard-knock life"

[Rianna Humble]

SassySal's link tries to perpetuate the myth that Renée Richards regretted her transition by making reference to a media article entitled "The Lady Regrets" from the start of February 2007. It conveniently sidesteps another interview that she gave two weeks later to refute the slanted reporting and to point out that what she actually regretted was the pursuit of fame as a transsexual.

Another headline misrepresentation relates to Sam/Samantha/Charles Kane who bypassed all the safeguards and bought himself a dv (IMNSHO that is not a real transition).

The other "regret" stories featured are from people who admit they lied their way through the medical screening and therefore blame the people that they lied to for not realising it was a lie.

[stefan37]

Unfortunately there is no more personal responsibility. Make a poor decision, blame it on others. The sadness is society and the courts reinforce that irresponsibility
Get drunk and kill somebody. Sue the bar. Disable all safety devices on a lawn mower, stick your hand in and sure the manufacturer for making a faulty device.

Until society and the court system start to hold people responsible for their actions it will only get worse. And we all suffer as a result.

There can be 1000 successful transitions, but only the 1 failure will get the attention and be a detriment to those that need to transition.

[Angela Campbell]

There is only the few who have experienced this that truly understand it. I find it interesting that some who don't look for stories about the ones who went badly and focus on that rather than trying to actually understand this.

What about the stories of the ones in the past who could not transition and just couldn't go on living. Who focuses on that?

[Kimberly Kael]

Does anyone personally know anyone who has detransitioned??

Yes. I worked with someone who transitioned a few years before me at my prior employer, and was quite surprised to hear that he had de-transitioned since I moved away. He had a relatively lengthy blog post on the subject citing medical reasons for doing so – discovering after a close call that he had a genetic heart condition and so HRT would almost certainly kill him. I haven't had a chance to chat with him in person since. His decision hasn't had any real impact on my life and I wish him well. We all need to find our way in this world and I'd think as a community we'd be sensitive about people making snap decisions about others following paths that are not our own.

[celeste26]

Is there some legal limit to the number of SRS each year? Is there some legal limit to the numbers of people taking HRT?

This is not a zero sum game, one person's gender issues should have no effect on the next person's. Those people who might choose to detransition have not done anything to affect all the rest of us, we've lost nothing. So it is rather presumptuous to stand in judgement over them however they end up expressing themselves. I vote for freedom not judgement.

[stefan37]

Those that detransition for various reasons and take responsibility are not the problem. It is those that detransition and blame others for their failure. They spew hatred towards they blame for supporting transition. If they went about their lives privately taking responsibility, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Right..
and when we respond to these selfish fools, we are viewed as judgmental and defensive

viewed medically it is quite common for people to have multiple conditions and have multiple treatment options that are impacted by their other issues... its quite common to eschew a helpful treatment for one condition because it raises risks from other issues.

.if somehow we could suck all the emotions out of transsexualism and transition (I know we cant), and view it correctly as a medical condition, there would be no issue with a person that needs to delay postpone or cancel transition because of other medical issues.. a person choosing to manage heart disease over transsexualism makes simple sense ...and if at some point she decides to deal with her transsexualism differently that would make sense too

[Kathryn Martin]

Kaitelyn, right on, and we are all bozos on the bus of our existence. We didn't make the potholes nor are we driving the bus.

[celeste26]

Walk a mile in their high heels before judging.

[Kathryn Martin]

Walk a mile in their high heels before judging.

That is really just a bunch of permissive bs Celeste. Anyone who transitions walks exactly in the same shoes for more than a mile. Anyone who walks a mile in shoes that don't fit is an idiot.

[Starling]

... Anyone who walks a mile in shoes that don't fit is an idiot.

That's how they actually test for idiots now. Saves a lot of paper.

:) Lallie

[Kimberly Kael]

Anyone who walks a mile in shoes that don't fit is an idiot.

I'd be willing to bet a lot of transitioners walked a mile in shoes that didn't fit at one point or another. If they didn't learn anything from the experience you might have a point... Oh, wait, that was a metaphor? Never mind.

Back to the topic at hand: until you've come out to everyone and had a chance to relax into your preferred role it's all but impossible to anticipate exactly how it's all going to play out. Will you still have a rewarding career? A healthy relationship with your immediate family, including children? Health? People who are unwilling to reasses a decision in light of new information strike me as no less idiotic than those who jump in with little or no thought about what the risks are.

The one theme I have seen is that there seems to be more regret among those who go from denial to full transition extremely quickly. Sure, I know a few who did the six month fast track and have stuck with it, but even they tended to leave scorched earth in their wake in the form of relationships that never stood a chance. I think there's wisdom in the typical RLE timeline that does indeed help minimize mistakes and help people learn to adapt to their changing life.

[Jorja]

That's how they actually test for idiots now. Saves a lot of paper.

:) Lallie

Well they are failing miserably because there is one hell of a lot of idiots out there now days.

[LeaP]

Those that detransition for various reasons and take responsibility are not the problem. It is those that detransition and blame others for their failure. They spew hatred towards they blame for supporting transition. If they went about their lives privately taking responsibility, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Purposefully quoted in its entirety. Perfect summation.

[Starling]

Well they are failing miserably because there is one hell of a lot of idiots out there now days.

We can spot them, but what else can we do? Perhaps all of us geniuses here serve to average things out.

:) Lallie

[LeaP]

What about the stories of the ones in the past who could not transition and just couldn't go on living. Who focuses on that?

Everyone. The references to suicides are endless. Plus, it's very close to home to all too many of us.

[Rianna Humble]

I think that in the context of anti transition propaganda. Angela's question was valid. We hear about the ones who cheated the system (Charles Kane et al) but we never hear from those who were driven to suicide.

[Kathryn Martin]

Rianna and Angela, we mourn those every day.

Kimberley, I don't think that anyone would ever walk the metaphorical mile if the shoes weren't at least workable....

[SassySal]

Actually the link provided does nothing more than "link" to sources found on Lyn Conway's site. I am interested what it is that "trust" has to do with the validity of the links. Surely readers here can draw their own conclusions about what is being "perpetuated" by those who shared their own painful experiences. I would also be interested in your thoughts on the Penner/Daniels tragedy.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

no way..

Who are you? Why are you here? What are your thoughts on Christine Penner?
What was your conclusion about Ms Conway's collection of stories??

Seems like you only like stirring pots and not really putting anything meaningful in yourself

I will say this...some transsexuals regret their "decision"
... if you are transitioning you should be aware that its possible you will regret it... what is so hard to understand about that....invest a lot, risk a lot....if you lose, lose a lot...

However, the vast majority of people that transition well end up thriving as people...that's not hard to understand either...

[LeaP]

... Surely readers here can draw their own conclusions about what is being "perpetuated" by those who shared their own painful experiences. I would also be interested in your thoughts on the Penner/Daniels tragedy.


no way..


Oh, I'll take it up. I would sort these out as follows along the general lines of the OP.

Rene Richards - Not applicable! As Rianna said, Lynn's site perpetuates Rene's regret myth, if unintentionally.

Dani Berry - My category 3 best fits. She was, by her own admission, more an intense CD and an autogynephile. A TG (i.e., not TS) transitioner with clear, life-long gender conflicts. My bells go off about the applicability of the spectrum concept here.

Sandra MacDougall - Category 3 again. Lynn's conclusion is that she is an intense CD, autogynephiliac, and seems to focus regret on sexual issues first and social issues second. TG transitioner again.

Samantha/Charles Kane - You're kidding, right? I CITED Kane as my category 1 example and a bunch of others cheerfully tossed him under the bus in this thread also.

None of these are TS transition regretters (Rene is TS but did NOT regret her transition).

Not so hard, was it? Their own words tend to almost make them self-sort. Just about everyone in this thread has had no problem expressing their views on transition regret and detransitioners. Except you, Sal. Are you willing to post yours here and now or not?

Just for ya-yas, I'll pile on some additional opinions of my own as they bear on regret and detransition risk. This is from a pre-transition perspective, so please keep that in mind. Some of this is pretty obvious stuff, but bears repeating.

. Misplaced priorities are a source of regret. High risk of outright regret or, minimally, ongoing conflicts, manifest when the alternative priorities inevitably make their entrance. Intense crossdressing is a typical driver. It's real, it is intense, it is a priority. And intense CDs that transition are asking for it ...

. Self-delusion is a source of regret. Dawn inevitably breaks. Regret is a certainty. A competent therapist plays a key role here (a point you - Sal - made yourself elsewhere). This is a topic worthy of its own thread, as it segues rapidly into spectrum concepts, the role of a therapist in TS vs TG gender clients, misunderstandings of psych practice and concepts, and some community culpability (as I see it) for undermining the role.

. Sexual motivation is a minefield for regret. I believe Kaitlyn is correct in her frequent assertion that sexual manifestations of GD (my phrase) is not the same phenomenon as sexual motivation, alternatively, that one can truly be TS and need to transition despite sexual issues. That sex (including autogynephilia) is the primary driver for many regretters, however, is obvious. Lack of honesty is probably a more applicable concept here than self-delusion, but it doesn't help that sex is a culturally charged subject, which probably leads to hiding and minimizing.

. The distinction between TS and non-TS regretters is a critical point of the OP. Whatever the need a non-TS may have for transition, it is NOT congruence. Do I need to judge the non-TS whose transitions fail (a troubling point to many responders)? From the standpoint of clarifying congruence need for TS and *thereby* making the ongoing case for transition medical support, YES. Are some cases tragic and sympathetic? Sure, but keep in mind that the regretters and detransitioners themselves are the ones typically making the points! THEY think the lesson more important than sympathy, even to the point of throwing themselves under the bus! (My category 1 types blame everyone else, but they are the minority.) A secondary point is that the advice and support that TS can and should offer should be based on the difference. It usually is, and is common to see remarks prefaced with "IF you are TS ..."

. Isolation increases risk. Online "support" only or primarily IS a form of isolation. TSs stress reality. IF you think you might be TS, one of your first orders of business is to meet TSs in the real world.

. Every step on the path affords additional insight and the opportunity to stop. There is much that could be said here. I'm going to focus on self-responsibility. Like many, I believe the path is heavily self-correcting, which is manifest in the low regret rates. As a result, I also believe there is an ever-increasing level of personal responsibility as one continues down the path. Most TS accept this as a matter of course and would have it no other way. It also puts the burden of transition failure squarely on the detransitioner, whatever others' contributions along the way.

[arbon]

I am interested what it is that "trust" has to do with the validity of the links.

Its you I don't trust because you don't put out any information about who you are, what your OWN views or experiences are, or about why you are here.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

There is a huge difference between the idea of personal responsibility and the consequences of actions relative to this huge decision as compared to the political and agenda driven desire people have to attack transition as something that is valuable..

Bashing transition just because some people regret it is an agenda... drugs and treatments come with warning labels...sometimes the labels are really long and scary..meds can have fatal side effects and yet people take them...

[LeaP]

Drug side-effects - good comparison. Of course, some don't believe in some of THOSE, either! Particularly psych meds. Depression not being REAL, after all ...

[Kathryn Martin]

While I am aware of Michael/Christine Penner/Daniels there is really not much information that would address his return to the byline Mike Penner in October of 2008. There is one quote from him though that I find interesting and may very well have summarized his initial decision to transition: "I just have to find out about this. I don't want to die without knowing — without knowing if this is really me."

If you take him at his word then it is sad that he transitioned in the first place. It is even more sad that he de-transitioned in October 2008. It is unquestionably tragic that he killed himself in 2009 because he was unable to live with his actions and how the views of others impacted him.

Most importantly in the context of this conversation however is the fact that he did not attack those that are transsexual or gender variant. And he had in all this tragedy agency of his life.

[Starling]

One point to get out of the way first: I believe Kaitlyn said "no way," because she didn't feel like sharing her personal beliefs with someone who revealed nothing about their own. I certainly can't argue with that.

Now, in the interest of clarity: my understanding from reading a lot about the Michael/Christine situation in local media is that Christine deeply regretted the loss of her previous life--especially the love and cohabitation of her wife--and detransitioned in hopes of salvaging it. Once having done that, she found it was impossible to return to the status quo ante; she failed to regain the relationships and status she had sacrificed. The fact that she had been so public in her transition, she felt, exposed her to the whole world as a failure and a fool.

Her tragedy was that she knew she was a woman, and could never again feel good as a man. The losses she experienced in transition, followed by her failure to recoup them by turning back, made her too despondent to carry on. Better counseling might have helped her prepare for the difficulties ahead, but as many here have said, you can't predict how a million variables might affect the future.

In my own life as a stalled transitioner, I know that I have lost the regard of some I came out to, especially as I vacillated. My wife, in particular, can never look at me the way she once did. I live in the worst of both worlds, as she also outed me to close family members, my in-laws and old friends I hadn't told. I had a huge, double loss--and I didn't even "alert the media." So there's really something to be said for pressing on, regardless, if you possibly can, if there is going to be regret at the other end no matter what you do. At least you get to live as a woman, with or without surgery and HRT if need be.

:) Lallie

[Kathryn Martin]

Back to the topic at hand: until you've come out to everyone and had a chance to relax into your preferred role it's all but impossible to anticipate exactly how it's all going to play out. Will you still have a rewarding career? A healthy relationship with your immediate family, including children? Health? People who are unwilling to reasses a decision in light of new information strike me as no less idiotic than those who jump in with little or no thought about what the risks are.

Kimberley my point has always been that those things should be thought about and assessed BEFORE you transition. I mean, should you not have talked to all that matter before you take this step and then assess if you can survive without them if you need to. Should you not know before hand what health risk you purchase with your hormone therapy? Should you not assess whether your career can sustain itself if you transition? And finally should you not make a clear and naked assessment of your capacity to sustain all of this through the process.

What NEW information would come to light if you have prepared for all of this the way I think everyone should?

And Starling, this is the issue with Mike Penner. Did he not talk to his spouse beforehand and if he did what unreasonable expectations would he have had after this disclosure and apparent blindness to the fundamental paradigm shift that occurs when a husband becomes a wife? I know exactly the kind of lies we tend to tell ourselves talking "our chances" of making it through unscathed up, and up. So when someone tells you what's going to happen and you think you will be the exception you better make damn sure you have in fact unequivocally covered all the bases in triplicate and KNOW what is coming down the pike. I could not guarantee the success of my transition but I was f*cking ready for everything and was ready to make it through no matter what I was faced with.

It upsets me when someone uses the meme of "preferred role". It sounds like a serious lack of gravity and responsibility. I have never had a preferred role - I was a girl and then a woman. There is no chimera of gender which is just another lie in your biographical pocketbook. Gender never reflects the nature of the human being but simply monkeys around with cultural constructs that have no inherent value other than to diminish.

[SassySal]

LeaP

Lots of good points here. What I find f interest is that you can make that obvious judgment that there exists a perceptible difference between the 'phenomenon' of TG-ism and the narrowly definable medical condition known as TS-ism. So far this has been a third rail for me resulting in negative consequences.

As for earning your trust....why should you trust me? I could be anybody making up stories and experiences at will. why would you choose to believe anything I have to say when it is more than obvious that nobody here likes or believes anything I have to say.

Anyway...just for the sake of this discussion, you can assume that I had my SRS many years ago and I did not suffer from any or all of that discrimination, confusion, bigotry, hatred, family problems of job losses, that is such a popular topic on these "woe is me" *support* forums.

Why am I here? Simple. I am here to offer a contrasting perspective to all the over-rationalization, and self-defeating, "victim-oriented" group think. I have been encouraged that despite all the animus directed towards me, it is obvious that my message is getting through despite it being an unpopular one

[Kathryn Martin]

As for earning your trust....why should you trust me? I could be anybody making up stories and experiences at will. why would you choose to believe anything I have to say when it is more than obvious that nobody here likes or believes anything I have to say.

I am alternately thinking "not so fast" and "funny that". Sometimes things that are being said are inherently trustworthy, at least to those who have been there done that.

I am not sure that self victimization isn't a political stance rather than reality, even though most don't seem to need a lot of convincing that they have fallen victim to the big bad world. As Lea says worth a whole separate discussion.

[LeaP]

Actually, Sal, what I said is that most people self-declare. One of the reasons I chose to focus on detransition in this thread was that there tends to be a lot of clarity on who is who and why and how things came down. Prior to transition? Not always so clear.

I am not one of those who said that I did not trust you (or your motives). But for the record, I don't. I don't like, dislike, believe, or disbelieve anything you have said. You haven't said anything of substance yet. Do you seriously think making vague statements such as you have about Lynn Conway's site are substantive? Does someone really have to go back and deconstruct your incredible posting history stretching back through time? I mean, are you up to a hundred words yet? Participate. Don't participate. I don't care. But please don't continue to sidetrack and derail the substance of the conversation.

I don't want to assume anything about you "for the sake of discussion." You can either be upfront about who you are and what your status is or not. Truth will out eventually. Offering such a response, however, is part of the syndrome that is leading to suspicion about your motives. Before you ask, yes – it does matter. To be completely candid, I don't give a rats ass about your opinion if you are not actually transsexual, my experience being that non-transsexuals have absolutely no credibility on many TS topics, including this one.

If you think there is over-rationalization, groupthink, victimization, etc. going on in the context of this thread topic, please feel free to point it out. You haven't done so yet. Your message? What message?

[SassySal]

"Wow, if I had to live in that head I would slap the bitch and tell her to shut up."

Actually, what you said was..."None of these are TS transition regretters".

Sure sounds like a judgment to me.


While I am aware of Michael/Christine Penner/Daniels there is really not much information that would address his return to the byline Mike Penner in October of 2008. There is one quote from him though that I find interesting and may very well have summarized his initial decision to transition: "I just have to find out about this. I don't want to die without knowing — without knowing if this is really me."

If you take him at his word then it is sad that he transitioned in the first place. It is even more sad that he de-transitioned in October 2008. It is unquestionably tragic that he killed himself in 2009 because he was unable to live with his actions and how the views of others impacted him.

Most importantly in the context of this conversation however is the fact that he did not attack those that are transsexual or gender variant. And he had in all this tragedy agency of his life.

I agree with your first two points. No sure about the third, "Most importantly in the context of this conversation however is the fact that he did not attack those that are transsexual or gender variant."

I thought this thread was about the TG "community" throwing those like Penner/Daniels under the bus.


I am not one of those who said that I did not trust you (or your motives). But for the record, I don't. I don't like, dislike, believe, or disbelieve anything you have said.

Like I said....no point in posting my bona fides. No one seems willing to accept them.

[LeaP]

Whatever, Sal.

[Kimberly Kael]

Kimberly my point has always been that those things should be thought about and assessed BEFORE you transition.

Of course they should. I'd be among the first to advocate a thoughtful, realistic approach to transition. That's still a far cry from the actual experience, and I doubt there's a single transitioner on this earth who didn't find a few surprises along the way – no matter how exhaustive their preparation. Then there are those whose dysphoria has been severe enough long enough that they aren't capable of being rational about transition. Does that mean they shouldn't have the option? Or that they can't second-guess their decision should things get really tough?

I'm particularly entertained by your assertion that we should be able to assess pre-transition whether our careers will be sustainable. Based on what? People who aren't making major life changes have a hard enough time with that question. I suspect I have one of the most rock-solid careers of anyone here, and I went into my transition prepared for the possibility that I'd never have a job again. Not everyone has that luxury.

It's easy to criticize others for failing to live up to your personal standards. That's why a sizable part of the world's population looks down on all of us. The least we can do is not do the same to members of our own extended community.

[Starling]

...It upsets me when someone uses the meme of "preferred role". It sounds like a serious lack of gravity and responsibility. I have never had a preferred role - I was a girl and then a woman. There is no chimera of gender which is just another lie in your biographical pocketbook. Gender never reflects the nature of the human being but simply monkeys around with cultural constructs that have no inherent value other than to diminish...

I chose the phrase to introduce a bit of variety, without realizing it would be assigned such critical importance. You were a girl and then a woman, Kathryn, but chances are you played a boy and a man as best you could, until you could no longer sustain it. You're obviously an extremely organized person with a strong will; and I don't doubt you dotted every "i" and crossed every "t" leading up to your transition and beyond.

More on topic, here is a link to the most complete account I've found of Mike Penner's transition to Christine Daniels, and the tragic conclusion. I think it's very much worth reading, especially considering it was written for a general readership.

http://www.laweekly.com/2010-08-19/news/mike-penner-christine-daniels-a-tragic-love-story/?showFullText=true

:) Lallie

[Aprilrain]

...no point in posting my bona fides. No one seems willing to accept them.

This is a BS statement, how are we supposed to accept them if you don't post them?? The truth is, in all likelihood you don't have any to post!

We've had more than a few fakes around here over the years, one of whom I chatted with on a regular basis for over two years before discovering "her" deception.

Sal, none of us know why you are here, what's your angle? You don't seem to share anything about yourself. You see we all know each other around here. Most of us have met at least one other person from the forum in person so have built a web of people we know are who they say they are. Transition is not something you can theorize about you must live it to know it. That's why we don't put up with any BS. It's just not helpful. So far you haven't shared anything we didn't already know about. Why don't you let us know who YOU are?

[Kathryn Martin]

I'm particularly entertained by your assertion that we should be able to assess pre-transition whether our careers will be sustainable. Based on what? People who aren't making major life changes have a hard enough time with that question. I suspect I have one of the most rock-solid careers of anyone here, and I went into my transition prepared for the possibility that I'd never have a job again. Not everyone has that luxury.

It's easy to criticize others for failing to live up to your personal standards. That's why a sizable part of the world's population looks down on all of us. The least we can do is not do the same to members of our own extended community.

Kimberly,

I take it you are still working in your rock solid career. Instead of getting a chuckle out of my assertions about assessing pre-transition whether our careers are sustainable through transition you might ask yourself why your career is rock solid. As a lawyer I am self employed and if no one walks through my door to seek my service I don't eat.

How long are you going to believe the myth that a sizable portion of the world population looks down on you? Do our careers really just depend on the intransigence of human reaction to our transition. Or do you actually play a part in your own life. Does the fact that you have a rock solid career have something to do with you, or is it just a gift from your employer? The people who walk through my door come because of who I am as a human being and as a professional in my field. The more you worry about others reaction or downward glance on you the less focus you expend of being the best you can both as a human being and as a professional.

I think that your view that we should not be critical of each other is just a lot of Kumbaya. When a sister takes the time and energy to give a critical and frank assessment of me then quite frankly I am grateful. The value of such an assessment by someone who actually truly understands cannot even be measured. I was fortunate enough to have such sisters. Their views as painful as they were at times took me forward.

[SassySal]

This is a BS statement, how are we supposed to accept them if you don't post them?? The truth is, in all likelihood you don't have any to post!

Transition is not something you can theorize about you must live it to know it. That's why we don't put up with any BS. It's just not helpful. So far you haven't shared anything we didn't already know about. Why don't you let us know who YOU are?

I have already stated on more than one occasion that I underwent SRS many years ago and that I did not suffer all of the many ills or confusion/angst, etc. that seem to be the topic of many of the posts on this forum. What else would you like to know?

As for "helpful tips", I am not sure that I can offer any to those of you which already seem to have all the answers despite going on and on about how difficult things are or have been for you, or that only you can know "what is right for you".

Sounds like a Catch 22 to me.

[becky77]

Gonna quote myself here lol.


I don't know how much I trust these therapists, I believe it's too easy to tell them what they want to hear. Yes, I totally agree that someone who bends the system can't be defended, but what of those that truly think that is their path and the therapist doesn't find the real underlying problem? I'm sure it happens and those people will detransition and it will be awful hard on them.


I was speaking to a fulltime TS person the other day, that has been through our system here in England and she said two things that raised alarm bells in me.

First, she wasn't allowed Hormones until she had completed RLE. (first time I have heard this, I found it hard to believe but she was adamant)
Personally I think that borders on negligense! Is it possible that with the help of hormones someone could control their GD enough not to transition?
Also what of someone that takes the hormones and it's all wrong for them.
If so making that person transition and out themselves first before they get the medication could be life threatening.
Again I state a possible de-transition waiting to happen, no wonder so many self med. Fortunately it has worked out well for her.

Secondly, she told me something I have now heard from three seperate people that have been 'through the system', when you go to see the gender therapist (and I believe it's a particular chap in question) wear a dress, he won't take you serious in jeans!!
Serioulsy is that what defines a woman, wearing a dress.

Until we have expert gender therapists, preferably ones that have experienced it themselves, de-transition is still possible and probable.

[SassySal]

I will say this...some transsexuals regret their "decision"
...

Perhaps you may be right that "some transsexuals regret". I would argue that your qualifying your assertion by using the term "some", makes it essentially a useless assertion. Also, I have no idea how you define 'transsexual'.

It is like asserting that "some" days are cloudy. It essentially says nothing. On the other hand when LeaP asserts that "most" regretters tend to be non-TS, then there is something that can be examined. In fact, this is something that I would probably agree with although I would have to add the caveat that I would need some further clarification of the terms "transition" and "non-TS".

[arbon]

I have already stated on more than one occasion that I underwent SRS many years ago and that I did not suffer all of the many ills or confusion/angst, etc. that seem to be the topic of many of the posts on this forum. What else would you like to know?
.

you have once, in this thread, as far as I know. Did you indicated that in other posts? I did not see where else you said that.

You have also indicated in your past posts that you were not transsexual.

So maybe you could give a straight answer? Which is it?

[SassySal]

Gonna quote myself here lol.
Until we have expert gender therapists, preferably ones that have experienced it themselves, de-transition is still possible and probable.

Boy! Do I agree with this, although again...what do you mean by "transition"?

[Kimberly Kael]

I take it you are still working in your rock solid career.

I am, but to pretend that there would be any guarantees it would work out this way would be foolish. No amount of self-awareness or research could promise a particular outcome. I'm extremely good at what I do, but two aspects were entirely unclear to me. One is that I was well known as a public speaker and I think it's legitimate to wonder how many companies are ready to have a transgender public representative? The other is that I have a good intuitive sense for our market, but that requires an employer to trust my judgement. I had to realistically assume that my transition would raise doubts for some if not many.

On that latter front I had a pleasant surprise when a coworker was asking my advice on a career move he was contemplating. This was about three months after my transition when I was still feeling pretty vulnerable, and I asked why he was seeking my advice in particular. His response? "You're one of the sanest people I know." I'm glad at least some people still see me that way, but I can cite examples to the contrary as well.


How long are you going to believe the myth that a sizable portion of the world population looks down on you?

As long as I keep seeing public rants that get plenty of support, hearing unapologetic slurs from people who should know better, and watching people vote against my basic human rights. If my father ever deigned to speak to me again that might be a step in the right direction, too.


Do our careers really just depend on the intransigence of human reaction to our transition. Or do you actually play a part in your own life.

It is, of course, a measure of both. I definitely advocate for taking responsibility and taking an active role in forging your own path in life, as a quick scan of my posting history should show. I've taken offense before at responses in threads where people assert "you're one of the lucky ones" to a woman describing her own successful transition. It generally takes a lot of planning and effort to make yourself look that lucky ... but it's foolish to think that we are in complete control. I didn't transition 20 years ago in part because it didn't even seem like a remote possibility in our society, and I'm exceedingly grateful that my dysphoria was manageable enough that I was able to suppress and deal with things on the schedule I did. I'm also grateful that I was dealt a relatively kind hand, genetically speaking. I don't have any illusions about having as easy a time of it starting from a dramatically more masculine body type.


I think that your view that we should not be critical of each other is just a lot of Kumbaya.

Criticism when warranted is a powerful and useful tool. That's certainly not what I was (wait for it...) criticizing. A thoughtful critique is one thing, reflexively calling someone out because their life of misery inconveniently creates an easy negative example in a public debate about the merits of social recognition of gender identity is quite another. (That assertion intended as more of a comment on the thread in general than any statement of yours that leaps to mind, Kathryn. You raise many perfectly reasonable points worthy of discussion.)

[becky77]

Boy! Do I agree with this, although again...what do you mean by "transition"?

I guess I mean passed the point of no return really, but revealing to everyone you are TS can be damaging enough and irreversable.

[Sandra]

Anyway...just for the sake of this discussion, you can assume that I had my SRS many years ago and I did not suffer from any or all of that discrimination, confusion, bigotry, hatred, family problems of job losses,

Really then you must be the only person who has had to so easy, care to share where you did your transitioning? IMHO I don't believe you let me say why..my SO who is on the forum has had an very easy transition but she and I have suffered, no where near as much as some of the TSs here, so I find it very hard to believe you.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Perhaps you may be right that "some transsexuals regret". I would argue that your qualifying your assertion by using the term "some", makes it essentially a useless assertion. Also, I have no idea how you define 'transsexual'.

It is like asserting that "some" days are cloudy. It essentially says nothing. On the other hand when LeaP asserts that "most" regretters tend to be non-TS, then there is something that can be examined. In fact, this is something that I would probably agree with although I would have to add the caveat that I would need some further clarification of the terms "transition" and "non-TS".

just stop it... you are so predictable...

Some people regret their decision...it is a simple fact...

guess what...I said it in direct response to a link THAT YOU POSTED!!!!!
You told us all to check out the link about the idea that some people regret transition on a 20 year old website that most of us read 100 times.

I was directing pointing out the empty nature of what you posted....which you have now kindly validated....

any other links we should look at??


my overall point is that people regret all kinds of things..."TS Regret" is a concept that has way too much gravitas...its a big decision, its a big life change...people screw up...crap happens in life...learning and experience crash into guilt and shame and fear...people run out of money...some people are just flat out fools... there is no magic to it.... its a concept that is used against the broader transsexual community as if there is some magical bar we must all cross or we will deal with the dreaded "TS REGRET".... the idea that "TS REGRET" exists is used against us because it is foisted up by haters to prove their point that being ts is a fraud....its used by people in our families and communities as blunt objects...its used by people that are against us and they hold up these regretters (many who are not TS, others are just sad souls) as if they have even one little bit to do with me..

"hey K I found this site on ts regret!!....check it out!!! you do know K that some people regret the decision right!!!" I could give a S**t
This is precisely what you did.....


Take a step back..if you care to, start over...
if you transitioned a while back and it was good...what you can do for people is share specifically what you did...when you did it...how you did it...how old were you...etc etc... that's what we all did...until you do that...you are just ether.

[SassySal]

"...so you agree now that life generally sucks? (and doesn't even care!!) I couldn't have said that better myself... You said my reality..."

This is not my reality. I cannot relate to your reality. I cannot relate to a reality of being in my mid 50's and sharing your perception of life. I admit that most likely there is very little that I can say that you personally might find of value.

Nevertheless, there may be people who are in their early twenties or younger who find value in my words. Honestly, I take no pleasure in responding to the many personal attacks on my personal integrity and do in fact find it tiresome especially when my apparently poor attempts at explanation are just fodder for even more anger being directed my way.

The OP was about those in the "trans*-community" distancing themselves from those who "de-transitioned" or "failed" at transition. The discussion devolved into what I see as random theorizing based on hearsay or "stuff read on the net" or in forums. This is why I offered the link to Lynn's site in an attempt to provide some concrete examples. Just because you think that "most of you have read that 100 times" does not mean that there might not be "some" among you that might find some wisdom in the actual experience of those who are brave enough to talk/write about there mistakes.


Its you I don't trust because you don't put out any information about who you are, what your OWN views or experiences are, or about why you are here.

"You have also indicated in your past posts that you were not transsexual. "

Well...it seems that a lot of the confusion stems from the fact that "many" (you included?) seem take an assertion made by LeaP that I am not, or "must not be" TS, as fact.

My response to that absurd fantasy based assertion was ah......well....it's just not here anymore.:love:

[Kimberly Kael]

The "prove you are who you say you are" club can get tiresome, but I do understand where some of the skepticism comes from. There really are people who live out fantasy lives online, describing their perfect lives and handing out advice based on pure fiction. For better or for worse, being wary is a learned survival instinct. Only time and what feel like authentic, vulnerable exchanges help to remove that barrier.

It is harder to take someone at face value when their experience seems so completely foreign. I suspect there are those who doubt me, too, because my life falls closer to the pipe dream end of the spectrum than most. Where I think the community here gets it right is to avoid setting an expectation that transition should be free of drama, doubt, and setbacks. Better to be pleasantly surprised occasionally than to cross that line unaware of the risks involved. Where I take issue is the groupthink that rejects any narrative that doesn't toe that line.

Interpreting observations that life isn't fair as agreeing that life sucks seems like an extension of this mindset: reject everything that doesn't reinforce your beliefs. The universe doesn't look out for me any more than anyone else but I have built a life for myself that I absolutely love, even with its occasional challenges and irritations.

[Nigella]

This thread has gone way off topic so time to say :gn: