Wishing to be a girl, is it CD or TS related?

[AmandaM]

Why do I continually wish I was a cute girl but don't feel like a transsexual? If I could snap my fingers and become one of the girls I see, I would do it. I feel like I've been cheated since I am not one of them. But, I don't feel I am supposed to be a woman. I don't desire to be "me" in a woman's body. Anyone feel this way? What does it mean to you?

[Desirae]

When you say you don't desire to be "you" in a woman's body, do you mean if you were being aware that you were once male and are now a woman? The only way that could ever be is if you were "reborn" as a girl and had no recollection of ever being a male. To me, this sounds like something that should be discussed with a gender therapist. Actually, snapping your fingers and becoming one of the girls you "see" would automatically remove "you" in the transformation, because you would become "them", whoever that is.

I think a lot of us have had this "fantasy", for lack of a better word. I wouldn't mind being "me", though. I think it would be OK to still be me but just be in a different body.

[Badwolf]

Your title suggests you wish to be a girl, but then you say you don't feel like you don't want to be in a woman's body.

TS tends to be more of the wish to be of the opposite sex, and would qualify almost by definition.

[AmandaM]

I think if I was a transsexual I would HAVE to be a woman no matter what I looked like, etc. So, why do I desire to physically be the cute girls I see?

[MatildaJ.]

Everyone is envious of healthy, attractive young women. They represent fertility and life to our culture. But if you actually were one, you would find out they are just as unhappy and insecure as the rest of humanity.

[Kate Simmons]

Being happy being yourself is the real key to happiness, whoever that "self" happens to be. :)

[Lucy Long Legs]

Don't you feel like one of those cute girls when your dressed?

[BOBBI G.]

From what your have said you fall under the pink and blue umbrella of gender differences. As stated in an earlier post, a gender therapist will help you discover who you are.

Bobbi

[mariehart]

Well what if you were offered the chance to be a frumpy plain girl? If you're TS you'd say yes. If it's no well.................

But remember even less attractive women wish they were cute girls.

[Laura J]

I don't think anyone (guy, girl, TS, CD, etc...) wishes to be an ugly example of their preferred gender.

[Marcelle]

Hi Amanda.

IMHO from what you have said in your post you sound more TG/CD than TG/TS. I cannot speak for our TS folks here but from what I have read and insight gleaned through my own therapy, being TS brings an unbridled need to correct one's birth sex in order to function in the world (e.g., I was suppose to be a girl not a boy). From your post I get you are happy as a guy but from time to time would like to be a girl. When I first started therapy my biggest confusion was that I wanted to be a girl (in my mind). I explored this with my therapist and she asked me one day to describe my feelings when I see a woman out and about. So I recalled one time when I was waiting in line at a gas station and there was a 30-something woman finishing up pumping her gas. She was dressed in a skirt, leggings, boots and jacket. She finished up and walked over to pay. My heart skipped a beat when I saw her and not in that "guy checking out a girl kind of way". My therapist asked me point blank did I want to be that girl. More specifically, did I feel as though I could not function in this simple task (pumping gas) unless the world viewed me and I viewed myself as a woman? I had to think and then said "no". So the next line of questioning went to why I was so enamoured with this woman? After a game of twenty questions we discovered while I did not want to be a woman (e.g., change my sex) I wanted the ability to dress as she did, express myself as she did - essentially be that pretty woman at the gas pumps. In essence, I wanted to be a boy who dressed as a girl (TG/CD) not a boy who wanted to be a girl (TG/TS).

As I have explored Isha in public, I have found inner peace with this desire to express this side of me. So now from time to time I get to be the pretty girl (okay that may be a stretch :)) at the gas pumps and for me that feels right.

Hugs

Isha

[Angela Campbell]

Your title suggests you wish to be a girl, but then you say you don't feel like you don't want to be in a woman's body.

TS tends to be more of the wish to be of the opposite sex, and would qualify almost by definition.

not really. TS is not the desire to be the other sex, it is knowing that you already are but your body doesn't match.

[LaurenS]

In essence, I wanted to be a boy who dressed as a girl (TG/CD) not a boy who wanted to be a girl (TG/TS).

Isha, I think you just saved me thousands in therapy fees! :)

Seriously, though, do you have thoughts of modifying your body, even just slightly, to appear more femme? Although I want to go back and forth, I wish my hips and waist weren't so box like.

[I Am Paula]

I will just add to what Angela said, cause she is always one step ahead of me.
The absence of GD, or the all encompassing NEED to make body match mind seems to be missing here. IMHO, once the need arises, you'll know it. In the meantime, enjoy being able to be whomever you want.

[sometimes_miss]

Everyone is envious of healthy, attractive young women. <snip> if you actually were one, you would find out they are just as unhappy and insecure as the rest of humanity.
^this. virtually all of us see female lives through rose colored glasses, also, in hindsight. GG's growing up have incredibly complicated lives, and to them, it's never all good. Even the really beautiful ones have problems, and being that beautiful is often a hell of a lot of work, not to mention being hated by a good percentage of her peers just because she does look that good, and for no other reason. Guys simply don't feel that way about other guys; if we hate another guy, it's because of something he's done, done to us, or how he treats us, not because he's more attractive to girls. At least that's been my experience. Girls have very difficult social lives. We usually only see the up side. Real female relationships with other females are, well, just nuts.

Well what if you were offered the chance to be a frumpy plain girl? If you're TS you'd say yes. If it's no well.................But remember even less attractive women wish they were cute girls.
I thought of that. But then I remembered back in high school, virtually all of the girls were attractive to me; normal bodies, normal hair, normal faces. I'm not talking about what is average today; today, obese and horrible hair styles is considered normal. Back then, sure, some were exceptionally good looking, but even the plain janes were pretty. I had to go back and look in my yearbook; and yeah, I would have been quite willing to have been any of all but three of the 250 girls in my graduating class. But trading in a life as a sub par looking guy to become a truly ugly girl? What would be the point? Misery in a female body is no better than misery in a male one. At least normal people have a normal chance of meeting a mate. Truly ugly people have about the same chance as a crossdresser has; slim to none.

[mariehart]

I mentioned it because I asked myself that very question, if you like a kind of self test of my commitment. The key thing here is not whether you want to look like a woman but whether you want to interact with other people as a woman and live as a woman with all the compromises that entails. Indeed many post op girls really don't pass that well and are not cute. But that's not the point. It's the need to be true to your inner self.

Having said all that I am content that much as I'd like to be a cute girl. It's a bit late for me now. As it is I bear a strong resemblance to a couple of sisters and my Mother. All of whom remain good looking as they aged. I'd settle for that.

[Lorileah]

I dunno :thinking: I always wanted to be a famous race car driver or a music star or rich. Being envious of a young gir's body and wishing to be her is one thing. Wanting to be A girl is different. You are fantasizing

[AmandaM]

I hear all of you. I totally relate about the girl at the gas pump, except I'd like to have her body too, not just "pass" like she does. But that's not going to happen with today's technology, and I'm not selling my soul, lol. I think you all have helped me see that this is more CD-related than Ts-related. I do have transient TS feelings, but they go away. Not enough to act on. If I could just stop this jealousy-train I am on. I have these thoughts everyday. It's tiring and frustrating. Maybe it's cause I have kids at home and can rarely dress? Maybe I need more girl time.

[ReineD]

So, why do I desire to physically be the cute girls I see?

The dating site, OKCupid, did a statistical analysis of how often women get attention (messages) from men based on their attractiveness. It is not surprising to see that the most attractive women get four times as many messages as average-looking women, and twenty-five times as many messages as women who are not attractive.

http://www.businessinsider.com/surprising-statistics-about-hot-people-versus-ugly-people-2011-1#a-hot-woman-receives-roughly-4-the-messages-an-average-looking-woman-gets-and-25-as-many-as-an-ugly-one-1

So basically, for most people a desire to be attractive is specifically motivated by a need to be appreciated by the opposite sex. I do think this instinct resides in our reptilian brain (http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-the-mind/human-brain/brain4.htm).

This makes sense to me - if I were stranded on an island with just women, I wouldn't care how I looked. But living in a mostly heterosexual world, an attractiveness quotient is a predictor of successful mating possibilities.

The question then remains, why would a heterosexual crossdresser want to be an attractive (vs. an average or not-attractive) woman, when he is not attracted to men? I think the answer lies in the fact that hetero crossdressers are turned on (initially when it starts out being sexual) by the thought of BEING an attractive woman more than wanting to attract men. It begins as a sexual thing and since CDers are indeed men who on average are more attracted to attractive women than average or non-attractive women, they desire to be the person they are most attracted to. This desire is different than any reason that a woman might want to be attractive.

On the other hand, the larger consideration for TSs is to have their bodies match their internal gender and remove as many male cues as possible, more than anything else.

:2c:

[AmandaM]

Reine, I don't know if I'd call it a sexual thing. I might call it an attraction thing. I've been a CDer since about four years old. And I remember being enamored with beautiful women back then. But they didn't necessarily turn me on. I remember a little girl next door my age at about 4-5. She was very pretty and wore the prettiest clothes. I remember wanting to be like her. I've always been "different" than other guys. Some gays "hover" around me cause they sense something, I have to deflect them. I have some feminine qualities or behaviors that make them think I'm gay or bi, I guess. Best I can say is I'm in-between genders. Maybe that makes me a non-op TS, a true transvestite, certainly not just a guy who likes to CD, yet not enough pull to make me a transsexual. Like I said before, maybe these jealousy feelings dog me everyday cause I can't dress except every couple of months.

[PaulaQ]

I guess I'll take the contrarian view here. You sound pretty trans to me, Amanda - you just haven't come out to yourself. Contrary to popular belief, coming out to yourself is the hardest person you'll ever come out to.

Wanting to be a woman is a pretty normal feeling if you really are one inside, and just aren't able to admit it yet. There's plenty of pressure in your life to stay a man. I won't kid you - transition is harder than anything you've ever faced and harder than anything you can imagine.

Whether or not it's worth it depends on how miserable you are as a man.

Of course whether you are really a man or a woman inside, or something in between, only you can figure out, maybe with a little help from a gender therapist.

But my guess, fwiw worth, is that you are more than just a CD.

[Anne2345]

Maybe that makes me a non-op TS . . . .

If I may ask, just what exactly *is* a non-op TS, and how do you distinguish it from other TSs?


Some gays "hover" around me cause they sense something, I have to deflect them.

And what does *this* have to do with anything at all as it relates to whether you are TS?

Assuming by "gays" that you are referring to gay men, why would they hover around you? I mean, to my knowledge, gay men are attracted to other men, not MtF TSs.


I guess I'll take the contrarian view here. You sound pretty trans to me, Amanda - you just haven't come out to yourself.

With all due respect Paula, if you are basing your opinion and your written response solely upon the substance of the information presented within this thread by Amanda, I think that is extremely reckless and irresponsible of you. Life is already difficult enough for most folk as it is. No need to throw such fodder on the fire and potentially complicate things further when there is little, if any factual basis for doing so.

@Amanda - If you have real concerns about your gender identity, or are suffering from gender dysphoria, you should seek out the advice and counsel of a qualified gender therapist to help assist you to work through your issues (whatever they may be).

[PaulaQ]

With all due respect Paula, if you are basing your opinion and your written response solely upon the substance of the information presented within this thread by Amanda, I think that is extremely reckless and irresponsible of you. Life is already difficult enough for most folk as it is. No need to throw such fodder on the fire and potentially complicate things further when there is little, if any factual basis for doing so.

Oh yeah, that's me - reckless and irresponsible Paula. :)
Why is what I said worse than saying "meh, you're just a cross dresser?"

BTW, I didn't say she needed to transition. I said "you sound pretty trans to me." She started CDing at 5, it's non-sexual. This is not a typical profile for a CD. She may well be something else, and I think suggesting professional help was entirely appropriate. Although apparently that didn't come across - I think she should discuss this with a gender therapist. However, ultimately, it's up to her - it's her identity. I can't tell her who she really is anymore than you can, nor anyone else.

[AmandaM]

Assuming by "gays" that you are referring to gay men, why would they hover around you? I mean, to my knowledge, gay men are attracted to other men, not MtF TSs.

Meaning feminine traits that may be taken as gay markers.

[kymmieLorain]

Don't you feel like one of those cute girls when your dressed?

I can dream I am, but in actuality I am an old fat guy in feminine cloths. but hey I don't look in a mirror often. LOL

Kymmie

[Anne2345]

This is not a typical profile for a CD.

I am not a crossdresser. I do not profess to know with any degree of reasonable certainty what crossdresser traits are typical versus atypical. And to be honest, I do not really understand what crossdressers get out of crossdressing. But more power to 'em for having the courage to do their thing.


I can't tell her who she really is anymore than you can, nor anyone else.

Yep. Absolutely correct. I'm just trying to better understand Amanda and what she has written within the context of her question, is all. :-)


Meaning feminine traits that may be taken as gay markers.

Um . . . okay. I guess. But still, what does this have to do with whether you are a crossdresser or a "non-op" transsexual? Which, btw, I am still unsure what a non-op TS is.


I do have transient TS feelings, but they go away. Not enough to act on.

What are "transient TS feelings?" Issues of denial and suppression notwithstanding, one is either TS, or one is not. I know a lot of transsexuals. I know some crossdressers. And I have met plenty of folk that fall somewhere in between the gender binary. But I do not think I have met anyone with "transient TS feelings." How does that work and what exactly does it mean?

[devida]

What is a non op TS? Really? Okay. A non op ts is someone who does not consider themselves to be the gender they were assigned at birth but does not want to use surgical interventions and often does not even want to use hormones to change their bodies to reflect that they are not the gender assigned at birth. I am a non op transexual to the extent I do not identify as male but also do not want to transition to female because although I would kind of like secondary female characteristics like tits I do not want top surgery. Also I am probably too old for hormones to do much and I am unsure of the actual level of medical knowledge. I don't trust doctors. I prefer to define myself as transgender because I do not want to pass as a woman and do not want to become a woman, for pretty much the same reasons I do not like being a man. I just can't stand the binaries. But I am also happy to describe myself as a non op transsexual, or at least somewhere along that spectrum. Many non op no ho transexuals do live as women. So, really I suppose I am a non op no hormone transgender transexual. I am not really a cross dresser because I dress according to my gender, which happens to be somewhere between the binaries of male and female.

And also please, can we stop with the absolute statements like either you are transexual or you are not? This is just not true. It is just more of the tired old binary conditioning that just makes my head hurt.

I understand how difficult it is for all the cross dressers and mtf full transexuals who are transitioning from one sex to another to understand this, but please just try. I am far from alone and there are an awful lot of young people like me. I just happen to be kind of rare among the older population of folks who are on this forum.

[Michelle789]

I feel like I've been cheated since I am not one of them.

Amanda,

CDers do not feel cheated that they were born male. Feeling that you have been cheated out of life as a girl is a damn good indication that you are experiencing gender dysphoria, and identify as female or something other than male.

Last summer I felt exactly the same way you did. I wanted to die and be reincarnated as a woman in my next life (and all lifetimes there afterwards too). Fast forward to summer 2014, and I have been living close to full time - basically I live as a woman all situations except AA because I am not out to everyone yet. I will be coming out at AA soon and start attending AA as my authentic self. I have been seeing a gender therapist since February, and hopefully will be starting hormones on August 1.

I second everything Paula said.

I would recommend seeing a gender therapist - I have been seeing one for the past five months and she helped me tremendously.

Also you may or may not be TS. You might also be genderqueer, bigender, gender fluid, androgynous, or something else. If you need to transition, you do not need to do all surgeries or even hormones to transition - although most TSes go on hormones.

Please feel free to send me a PM if you wish to talk :)

[AmandaM]

Transient TS feelings means that sometimes I feel like I'm probably TS and should pursue it. Then the feelings dissipate, and I feel I'm just a CDer. These feelings get stronger and weaker over time with no "trigger" that I can define. They ebb and flow, neither feeling wins completely. For gay markers, let's make it simple, if a guy swishes a bit, or is a little limp-wristed, the first thought of others is not that he is a CDer.

[Michelle789]

Amanda, I was also experiencing transient TS feelings this time last year like you describe, and that lasted until I finally admitted that I was TS two months ago. I still have some inner dialog and fight myself, but no where near as much as I used to.

[Rachel Morley]

Don't you feel like one of those cute girls when your dressed?
That's what I was thinking. I always feel more attractive and cute when dressed (notice I said "feel" not "look). Ok so I'm not one of those cute young GGs that seem to be everywhere but I feel that I get a little closer to what it might be like to be one. If I could choose and have my time over again I would kill to be a young, pretty, sexy bodied, and smart 21 year old female!


Some gays "hover" around me cause they sense something, I have to deflect them. I have some feminine qualities or behaviors that make them think I'm gay or bi, I guess.
I understand this quote. I have had plenty of times when I was younger where I have been approached while in boy mode in a bar and a guy (presumably gay) was obviously coming on to to me. I put it down to the way I was dressed (a little bit girly) and my mannerisms and persona (a little bit girly) .... that said, I get that gay guys like men, sometimes really masculine men, so I dunno what it really means :confused:

[KellyJameson]

You want to be a cute girl but not an ugly girl because you want to be wanted. Who you want to be wanted by and for what reasons will tell you why you want to be a cute girl.

Answer what you want from other people by being a cute girl and you answer your question

[ReluctantDebutant]

Only you can know for sure whether you are merely a CD or you are destined to transition into a woman. But it is quite possible for a CDer to wonder what life would be like being born with another X chromosome. Cross-dressers are human they have imaginations by definition they have a desire to wear women's clothing. Usually they want to look good wearing that clothing and not look like a man in a dress. So they often see themselves looking as feminine as the imagination will take them. Desiring to wear women's clothing and wanting to look good do it can often bring up the thoughts that life wearing women's clothing would somehow being easier if one was born a woman. You get to dress in t-shirt a jeans like a man when you want to without having people think you are strange when you want to be all pretty an wear a dress and make-up. So you see it is quite possible to think about such things and still be a CD especially when the desire to cross-dress hits hard. I should know I have done it many times.

If I have learned one thing hanging out on the internet with Cross-dressers and Transsexuals is that if you want to change you sex you have to do so unconditionally. You can't go into only if you get to be cute or pretty, you can't go into it only if you get to feel wonderful and happy all the time. One should only go into it to just feel right with themselves despite what good or bad still lay ahead.

[LelaK]

[] A non op ts is someone who does not consider themselves to be the gender they were assigned at birth but does not want to use surgical interventions and often does not even want to use hormones to change their bodies to reflect that they are not the gender assigned at birth. I am a non op transexual to the extent I do not identify as male but also do not want to transition to female because although I would kind of like secondary female characteristics like tits I do not want top surgery. Also I am probably too old for hormones to do much and I am unsure of the actual level of medical knowledge. I don't trust doctors. I prefer to define myself as transgender because I do not want to pass as a woman and do not want to become a woman, for pretty much the same reasons I do not like being a man. I just can't stand the binaries. But I am also happy to describe myself as a non op transsexual, or at least somewhere along that spectrum. Many non op no ho transexuals do live as women. So, really I suppose I am a non op no hormone transgender transexual. I am not really a cross dresser because I dress according to my gender, which happens to be somewhere between the binaries of male and female.
Same here, except I still crossdress quite a bit. I think I’ll still call myself a CD regardless of how I dress in the future.


Amanda,
CDers do not feel cheated that they were born male. Feeling that you have been cheated out of life as a girl is a damn good indication that you are experiencing gender dysphoria, and identify as female or something other than male.
I feel more disappointed than cheated. I figure there may be a good reason I was born male, but I’ll likely remain disappointed as male at least as long as I don’t know what the good reason was. I’ll keep calling myself a CD though. When I joined this site, I posted to the transsexuals section, but they said if I don’t plan to transition I should use the CD section.

[Badwolf]

not really. TS is not the desire to be the other sex, it is knowing that you already are but your body doesn't match.

Quick search of the definition comes up with this: "a person who emotionally and psychologically feels that they belong to the opposite sex."

I'm going to sidestep this for a moment and start with a different subject.

All of these terms we're talking about are normally rooted in psychology (specifically a book called DSM), and as they are applied in many cases are in terms of treatment.

When I say it sounds more TS based, it's based on the fact that the drive to be female can sound like a version of feeling that they should have BEEN born that way. According to some metrics I have TS tendencies as well even though I identify as a CD. Again since they are defined based on treatments of mental disorders, the true question is how am I going to achieve a happy and productive life. Since TS procedures are normally pretty intense, it is treated as a situation that requires "persistent discomfort", and/or "clinically significant distress or impairment in work or social life." While I might have passing versions of those I don't really qualify, nor do I think full gender reassignment is right for me clearly.

The lack of these symptoms means it doesn't meet the clinical definition for diagnosis, or treatment, but doesn't mean the emotions can be related to the same general causes. Meaning that when I say the comments FEEL based more on one definition, I am by no means suggesting that the individual qualifies under the guidelines for treatment of said "disorder". The only way to know that is for the person to really soul search a lot more and figure out if the current clinical definitions and diagnosis (which aren't perfect either), fit them or not. In the end a therapist will help, and decide wether or not treatment is necessary.

[Anne2345]

Devida, on the one hand, you state that you are a non-op TS, but then you go on to write that you "dress according to my gender, which happens to be somewhere between the binaries of male and female."

You can't have it both ways, Devida. If you are a MtF TS, you identify as a woman. You do not fall somewhere in "between the binaries of male and female." By your own words you defeat your own argument, and tank your credibility. Do you even understand what being a transsexual really means? Judging by your response, I would say you haven't a clue.

This is why words are so important. Because they have very specific meanings. And meaning can make all the difference in the world and then some.

As for the statements I choose to write here on this forum, whether such statements are in the form of an absolute or not, who are you to ask me not to do so? How about this instead - why don't you first take the time to actually substantively learn and educate yourself about the actual issues here, instead of writing such completely irrelevant, meaningless, and unhelpful stuff as "I am unsure of the actual level of medical knowledge. I don't trust doctors."

I mean really, you would make my head hurt if I cared anything about your opinion whatsoever. Thankfully, I do not. Except in as much as it may be dangerous to those such as AmandaM.

All I have done is ask her some questions relevant to the OP in an effort to better understand her position and what she thinks.

In fact, she is doing quite a good job of further explaining herself and making her feelings more clear. All of these things are necessary.

If Amanda thinks these questions are hard, she is in for quite a rude awakening and in for a seriously hard time if she pursues a path into TS Land. But based upon what I've seen so far, she has handled herself with grace, dignity, and responsiveness. She has not gotten defensive, she has not run away, and she has stuck with this thread.

And good for her. I respect that.

Oh, and if your head still hurts, you may want to see a doctor about that. Oh, my bad, I forgot - you don't trust doctors . . . . .

[MatildaJ.]

I have these thoughts everyday. It's tiring and frustrating. Maybe it's cause I have kids at home and can rarely dress? Maybe I need more girl time.


maybe these jealousy feelings dog me everyday cause I can't dress except every couple of months.

That sounds likely. Could you try to build in more time to dress, late at night with a locked door to keep out the kids, or out of the house at a support group of some kind?

[PaulaQ]

I am not a crossdresser. I do not profess to know with any degree of reasonable certainty what crossdresser traits are typical versus atypical. And to be honest, I do not really understand what crossdressers get out of crossdressing. But more power to 'em for having the courage to do their thing.

I was a crossdresser. I understand what one can get out of it. For that matter, one of my girlfriends is a former CD. She started at 5, and it was also never sexual with her. (It was for me, for a while, until suddenly it was not.) And growing up, I was read as "different" by a number of gay men throughout my life, although I never had sex with any of them - it just didn't seem right for me somehow.

As for "transient TS feelings", gender dysphoria can be episodic in nature, coming and going until it finally settles in with a vengeance. (Or doesn't.)


Which, btw, I am still unsure what a non-op TS is.

Many of us are either unable to afford or obtain SRS, or just don't feel dysphoric enough about our genitals to really merit it, since it's such a serious procedure. Having a vagina built by a plastic surgeon doesn't make us any more of a woman than having a natural born penis made us men. That said, I sure as hell want one, as I'm quite dysphoric about my reproductive organs. One can choose to not have any operations, but take HRT, and still transition and live as a woman. For that matter, many transmen NEVER get bottom surgery.

I mean no disrespect to you with my replies btw, Anne. I have talked with many other trans women who really don't get crossdressers either. (One of my girlfriends NEVER CDed - ever, but she's trans. She's on HRT, and getting therapy, transitioning, and marking time waiting for SRS.) The desire to CD really is pretty weird and hard to understand unless you have it. I guess I just like CDs because I used to be one. I have great respect and sympathy for what they go through in their lives, both those who will NEVER need to transition, and those who some day will. Having a part of yourself that you can't express is agony, and in my opinion, in many cases differs only in degree from the GD we suffer from.

[Katey888]

Be cool, members.. :cool:

Please try to keep this on the OPs quite straightforward premise and responses and do not get too personal or tangential in your perspectives.

I would remind everyone here that we are each entitled to our own opinion and have a limited right to voice those opinions without unduly attacking anyone else... so keep it reasonable and on topic, please... :)

Katey
Moderator

[LaurenS]

Answer what you want from other people by being a cute girl and you answer your question

For me, that answer is 42.

[Anne2345]

Paula, I understand what a non-op TS within the context of someone who is limited by circumstance. Such a thing is clear on its face.

But that is not the context that AmandaM was using the term. And that certainly wasn't the context within the self-description offered by devida.

In this, with claim of limiting circumstances, Amanda instead stated that she may be a non-op transsexual. Within this very same context, however, she also wrote that she has no desire to be her within a woman's body.

It is within this context, within the manner in which Amanda has used the term non-op, that is unknown to me and that I do not understand. As I wrote before, words and meaning are very important. I seemingly have proved my own case by having insufficiently and inarticulately expressed my own meaning. I apologize for the previous confusion.

As for GD, I know all too well the pain it can inflict and the chaos it can cause. I would not be in the process of completely blowing up my life and my family but for the ravages of GD.

Still, Paula, you state you used to be a crossdresser, but that you are now a transsexual. And you seem to be relying on this premise for your insight and intuition into the mind of the MtF crossdresser (who, by definition, is a man). Am I correct about this?

in my case, I used to "crossdress," as well. But my "dressing" was more of an outlet for any temporary upsurges that assaulted my carefully crafted walls of denial and suppression. Such things were typically followed by massive attacks of guilt and shame, so I only "dressed" when I needed to. The thing is, though, that I "dressed" for very different reasons than the typical MtF CDer. Don't get me wrong, though - I had thoroughly convinced myself that I was a MtF crossdresser, and I did everything I could to maintain my own personal façade. But it wasn't sustainable. Of course, as you know, such things never are.

Regardless, a MtF CDer is a man, period. Even in the throes of denial and suppression I was not a man. Certainly not a man as those men around me were. Instead, my life was built entirely upon falsehoods, acting out my expected part, fear, self-loathing, and massive overcompensation. Even so, I was never, ever comfortable with the role of playing a man upon the stage of the expectation set forth by society. Having to "be" a man sucked. And it sucked because it wasn't right for me, and it wasn't who I was.

So given this background, I cannot say - even though I once engaged in the act of what I had convinced myself to be MtF crossdressing - that I understand the mind of the MtF crossdresser. And really, now that I am well into the process of transition, I understand it even less, because I know now that I never really even understood it in the first place.

Also, neither my questions nor my comments have anything to do with who has, wants, or needs vaginas or penises or whatever else. That is an entirely separate issue, and unless Amanda states otherwise, not relevant to the OP.

Sorry to be speaking about you like this as if you weren't here, Amanda. Funny how such things can happen around here, though, isn't it? ;-)

@Katey888 - lol. Fair enough. :-)

[AmandaM]

No worries. Yes, I do feel like I should have been born a woman. Yes, I am extremely jealous of all the cute girls and feel robbed. Yes, my CDing also has a sexual gratification component (maybe I'm a shem*le, ha). But when I think of what TS's go through, I balk. For many reasons I guess. Plain and simple, when I see the hell TS's go through to get their body correct, the loss of family, income, sometimes ostracized by society, I just don't want to put myself through that. Now if you made a magic island, ok SanFran, lol, where I could have gone at 18, gave it a shot without judgement or loss, maybe I'd be a woman now? Possibly. But being married, children at home, house, career, etc. I won't kill that just because I want to "explore my feelings". I am sure these feelings are familiar to some of you.

[ReineD]

...I am a non op transexual to the extent I do not identify as male but also do not want to transition to female because although I would kind of like secondary female characteristics like tits I do not want top surgery.

...

And also please, can we stop with the absolute statements like either you are transexual or you are not? This is just not true. It is just more of the tired old binary conditioning that just makes my head hurt.

I totally understand what you're saying, and I think you described it very well! :)

You are referring to "transsexual" as being "beyond" the gender identity assigned at birth, based on genitals. So in effect, you live your current life having transitioned from the strictly male that I am guessing you were raised as.

I also think that a lot of people forget there are multiple things to "transition" to. A person born with male genitals and raised as a boy, if she identifies as a woman, can fully transition (to the utmost of medical possibility) with HRT, FFS & BA (if needed), and SRS. This woman would hate all her male sexual characteristics, obviously. And a person born with male genitals and raised as a boy can also transition, as you say, to non-binary gender ... neither fully male nor female.

I think a lot of members here consider "transsexual" to mean a someone who transitions from the male sex to the female sex and they believe the transitioners to be firmly in the binary female camp. I believe this is how traditionally the community has defined it, before there was any understanding of gender-nonconformity.

So we really do need two different words, in order to dispense with disagreements over terminology: one for a person who transcends/transitions from the sex they were assigned at birth to the opposite sex in the gender-binary (what most people define as transsexual), and one who transcends/transitions to non-conforming gender (while still retaining some of all of their male sexual characteristics), which is how you describe yourself: outside of the gender-binary, neither male nor female. I want to note that both these persons can be considered feminine, if this is how they see themselves. And I dare say that both would also feel cheated, disappointed, or any other such feeling, in not having the world see them as who they feel they are internally, which in both cases are different than the gender they were assigned at birth.

You used the term, "transgender transsexual". I can't think of any better, unless maybe "non-conforming TS" (NCTS) might do? The term "transgender" in itself tends to confuse because it is a huge mishmash that both some CDs and TSs use to define themselves, although increasingly I wonder if more people like you are appropriating the term for themselves.

We have way too many different types of people in this community to try to fit them all into two or three general labels. lol

[Anne2345]

Reine, a term I have seen used (and I know we've all seen it around here before and out in the real world) to describe those who fall somewhere in-between the binary and do not identify specifically as male or female (either in whole or in part) is "gender fluid." Fwiw, I really like this term. I think it captures many of the in-betweeners, and is adequately descriptive and easily understood on its face. Plus, I think it just sounds pretty damn cool. ;-)

[ReineD]

I like "gender fluid" too. It's the simplest. "Bigender" isn't bad either. My SO identified as "dualgender" for awhile, but I haven't heard her refer to herself that way lately. The WPATH uses "gender-nonconforming". For awhile, a lot of people on this site referred to themselves as "in-betweenies" (which I didn't particularly like). And of course there is the standby, "transgender".

But even all of these terms have gradients. This is why, I think, that someone on the feminine end of "gender fluid" might like to think of themselves as transsexual ... which is redefining the term from its traditional meaning, (I believe), of someone who has a physical transition from one sex to another.

But, we do live in a community that has grown in understanding by leaps and bounds since the 1950s-60s, so it is not surprising that people want to redefine the terms. I personally think it much better to identify general categories of being, and assign different terms to each one in order to end the confusion. Maybe a numbering system or something. :p

Edit - I think an issue is the reason that some feminine-identified folks don't actually transition: some people want to keep it private from their wives and try to live their lives as a balancing act, or they don't want to lose their families or jobs. Other people can't for medical reasons. Other people can't afford it. When we take these people into account, then value judgments must be made: are their reasons legit, or are they fooling themselves?

So I think a great marker for being transsexual is actually living as a female with no possibility to revert to male mode (and feeling downright noxious when having to present as male), whether or not there is a physical transition (SRS).

But even this would be debated. It's a complex community. We are trying to fit gradients into absolutes.

Edit 2: I keep coming back to this. lol. I heard a show the other day on NPR, about transsexualism. They referred to it as "transgender". One of the guests was Helen Boyd's wife, Betty (I forget her real name). Betty made the point that the community wants to distance itself from public curiosity (during interviews, etc) about their genitals. Betty considers this private and I took it, not the marker for being a woman. Betty further said that her hope is for society to get to the point of no longer needing any TS go "stealth", which she defined as the old-fashioned term for being seen as a woman. Betty felt that we should all get to the point where it doesn't matter what chromosomes or sexual characteristics one has, all that matters is how we define ourselves. Like ignoring someone's race when it comes to making judgment values about a person.

I'm guessing there will be some people who agree with her, while others will not.

And so it goes.

[PaulaQ]

@Anne2345 - (Your transition is obviously going well, you look fanstastic, hon! :D) - I think where you and I (and many others, I'm in the minority with my point of view, I realize that) differ is that you assert that fundamentally, what CDs experience is profoundly different than what transsexuals such as you and I experience. I assert, on the other hand, that our conditions are, at the very least, related, and that in general, they suffer from gender dysphoria that differs from ours only in severity.

If there is a profound difference between crossdressers who are solidly male identified, and transsexuals, who also crossdress, but haven't come out to themselves yet, then it should be something that is detectable, right? But as far as I've been able to determine, even experts can't really tell one from the other until we come out, and begin transition, or at least seriously contemplate it. (Other factors might prevent a candidate for transition from following through.) If you can't distinguish between the two populations until after the fact, how can you be sure there's really any difference at all?

I certainly understand that there are male identified CDs who'll never transition, and for whom transition would be wholly inappropriate, and even harmful. However, there are crossdressing trans women who really probably do need to transition, and yet many here would convince them "nah - you're just a CD." I think this can certainly be equally harmful, and in fact, it was my own personal experience on this very forum.

I simply think it's fairly useless to try to tell who's who - the state of the art simply doesn't give us sufficient insight into the psychology or neurology of our conditions to allow us to discern one from the other. And perhaps there will never BE a way to tell for sure - it's possible that the causes are identical for some of us, and that for some, GD progressively worsens, and for others it does not, and as such they remain "just a CD". It is hard to predict the future outcome of a progressive condition, in general.

All that said, I won't be surprised either if there are fundamental neurological differences between a CD and a TS, and that we simply don't have the means and knowledge to study them yet.

In any case, even if we share nothing in common biologically, we all share the same fundamental problem, both CDs, TSs, and all TG folks - a society that has refused to let us be our authentic selves, that judges us harshly, and penalizes us for being different.

[Michelle789]

@Paula - I asked my therapist about this subject once, and she said that CDers have gender dysphoria that is less progressed than that of a TS. CDers, according to her, are female identified, but they like their maleness. They don't hate their penis, they like their beards, and like having sex with their wives, and like other aspects of their male lives. Perhaps there is a spectrum of CDers.

1. Male identified with moderate to strong female persona or interest in women's clothes or women's activities, but no female identity (do not transition) - these are likely the ones whom it truly is all about the clothes - I suspect this group would benefit if men were allowed to wear dresses, heels, or makeup, and not be ridiculed
2. Primary male identity, with secondary female identity (most likely should not transition, a dual life may be necessary some day)
3. Primary female identity, with secondary male identity (may or may not need to transition someday, a dual life may work out too)
4. Female identified with strong male persona or interest in men's clothes or men's activities, but no male identity (should transition, probably similar to late transitioners)

With that said, I think that TSes also fall along a spectrum that explains why some of us are better at "manning up" than others, although my therapist and I both don't believe in Blanchard, I think there are degrees of manning up as well. In all cases, whether or not you were able to "man up" has nothing to do with whether or not you had a history of CDing, and nothing to do with your sexual orientation. TSes are female identified, and should transition, but personality and upbringing might affect the age of transition, as well as to what male activities the TS may partake in before transitioning.

I personally find that many TSes do not fit neatly into Blanchard's two types - I for sure didn't, and most of the ones I know don't fit neatly into his two types. The only real truth to Blanchard that I can see is there are degrees to which a TS can put on a male persona before transitioning, and this affects the age of transition (not 100% of the time, though).

@Amanda - I understand your reasons for not wanting to transition - it is true that TSes often go through hell. Honestly, the degree of hell a TS goes through varies from person to person. Some lose everything, some lose nothing or little. As for the physical pain, electroloysis and laser hair removal are physically painful and there is no way around this. Well, not entirely true, you don't have to do hair removal if you are willing to shave every day and be ready to cover up your 5:00 shadow.

It is okay to feel jealous of cute girls. This is not a litmus test that separates CDers and TSes. TSes and GG's both are often envious of prettier women - everyone wants to be the pretty girl. And yes young TSes can transition into really attractive girls. Even middle aged ones can still be attractive for their age.

My therapist also said that lots of CDers won't leave the house en femme because of transphobia, and suspects that some TSes won't transition because of transphobia and risking losing everything.

Having a sexual gratification component does not have anything to do with whether or not you are TS or a CDer. My therapist also said that most CDers and most TSes do have a sexual gratification component - autoeroticism - and that what we fantasize about in private reflects at least a part of who we truly are. Both CDers and TSes engage in autoeroticism. Welcome to the club!!!

@Sometimes Miss - I totally agree with your point on pretty girls having it tough. First, everyone has problems, no matter who you are. Pretty girls are often ostracized by lesser attractive women. Pretty girls also either get too much male attention, or not enough male attention - sometimes men can be too shy to ask a pretty girl out and they might assume they already have boyfriends. So pretty girls can actually be lonely.

[devida]

Wow, Anne, I didn't mean to push your buttons! I really am sorry that my opinions about the way I identify myself made you so upset.

But here's my view: nobody gets to define me or anybody else in tems of my gender identity, my sexuality, or my sex. I own the words that define me. You don't, no matter how much you may feel that you should, no matter how much you think that my defining myself in a way you do not approve may hurt others. They also own their own words.

Was it absolutely necessary for you to make the ad hominem attacks you did in your post? Did I attack you? If I did, even if you thought I did, I really do apologize. It was not my intention to distress you, just, perhaps inexpertly given the vehemence of your response, to make the point that I, and a fair number of other people, do consider ourselves to be transexual, just not in the way you define it. Again I apologize for belaboring the point but I personally reject the idea that there are only two genders and that being transexual means that you are moving from one gender to another. But I respect and honor your belief that there are only men and women and gender fluid people in between. You can absolutely have that view. I just request that you allow that other people have the right not to define themselves within the terms that you dictate.

And if you can't do that, well I guess I will just have to wistfully accept that you can't and allow you to have that view. I would, as gently as I can given the intensity of your feelings, request that you don't assume that I am ignorant of the issues of gender identity that this topic references. Like most of us, I am sure, I spend a great deal of time studying, analyzing, and living these issues and because I know these issues are based in very personal and subjective experiences I would not for a minute think that you or anyone else here somehow lacks the qualifications to discuss this.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Amanda, I am just a guy that loves to dress and look as feminine as I can ,
But I wouldn't want to change because I have the best of both worlds.

[Dianne S]

I don't believe there's a clear-cut border between crossdressers and transsexuals. I think there's a continuum ranging from crossdressers who occasionally dress for fetish reasons and are otherwise happy being guys all the way to transsexuals who would kill themselves if they could not transition.

Furthermore, I think we can move around on the continuum as we age and our life circumstances change. As I age, I find I'm moving closer to the "transsexual" end of the spectrum: I no longer get turned on by women's clothing and I also wish to present as female more often and in front of more people. You just have to accept yourself for who you are, accept that your feelings may change over time, and see where your adventure leads you.

[Beverley Sims]

It could be either way, probably needs more thought

[CynthiaD]

To the OP: It sounds to me like you'd just like to be someone else, at least for a while. Everybody feels that way from time to time. The fact that your someone else is female, suggests that you're somewhere in the TG spectrum. From your other remarks, I'd guess you're probably CD. But that's for you to decide.

My "someone else" is also female.

[shawnsheila]

For me, I feel like I am a woman but who is ok with having a male part but I wish I looked more feminine... or I should say, I am a woman in a mans body who is ok with some of the perks of being male but really wished she could be female... if that makes sense.

[ReineD]

^ Shawnsheila, this doesn't make sense to me. I see basically three classifications of gender: males who like their bodies and don't want female parts, females who like their bodies and don't want male parts, and someone who is a combination of both or who switches back and forth. So if a person is in the third category, then how can they also be female, which implies no male desires or characteristics whatsoever?

Granted, people get confused about stereotypical personality traits, for example someone in this community might say that if a girl is extremely logical, analytical, competitive, aggressive, etc, then she is "part-male". This is not true. There is a huge range of characteristic strengths among both genders and if she identifies as a female, lives and is known to others as a female, has no desire to have others think she is a male, then she is a female. Women can be aggressive too. The same holds true for males. They can be talkative, emotional, non-aggressive, not like sports, or any other non-stereotypical male trait (I know guys like that), and if they don't think of themselves as female and they don't have any desire to present as one, then they don't have "female" personality characteristics. They just fall within the very wide range of ways to be male.

But, if a person likes to present as a female sometimes and as a male at other times (they want others to perceive them sometimes as a female and sometimes as a male), or they want to be perceived as one gender while retaining the physical characteristics of the opposite sex, or they want to remove any gendered characteristic from their presentation (say they want to all the time appear ambiguously androgynous), then they do fall in the third category, which is different than an individual in the 95% of our population who knows their gender and doesn't question it.

It makes more sense to me that people who are gender fluid would have a difficult time labeling themselves. I think a lot of people feel that one must by default be either male or female, since this is what we've seen around us all of our lives and this is what people expect out of one another. Right? When you see someone who is ambiguous, a subconscious question is, "Are they male or female". But the truth is, for many people in our community it's not that clearly defined.

[Alara]

I wanted the ability to dress as she did, express myself as she did - essentially be that pretty woman at the gas pumps. In essence, I wanted to be a boy who dressed as a girl (TG/CD) not a boy who wanted to be a girl (TG/TS).



Isha saved me therapy fees too :)

[Kristine_NEPA]

I definitely dream of being a girl whenever I get the urge to dress or am watching a girl doing something sexy but at the same time I also love being a guy and doing what guys do!

[Lucy_Bella]

I dunno :thinking: I always wanted to be a famous race car driver or a music star or rich. Being envious of a young gir's body and wishing to be her is one thing. Wanting to be A girl is different. You are fantasizing

Dead on ..Short but straight to the point.. I do not personally know the O.P. and in a polite way I would like to address the "wanting to be a cute young girl" as fantasizing ..

I am curious to know would you still want to be or think you are a T.S. if you could never be a cute young girl ?

[AmandaM]

Dead on ..Short but straight to the point.. I do not personally know the O.P. and in a polite way I would like to address the "wanting to be a cute young girl" as fantasizing ..
I am curious to know would you still want to be or think you are a T.S. if you could never be a cute young girl ?

Yeah, I ask myself that too. When I look at old men and old women, could I picture myself as an old woman? No. As an old man? It feels better to me to be an old man. I don't know why. I don't think I want to pursue SRS though sometimes I want to try. Part of it is fear, part of it is potential disappointment if I'm not "female" enough. I suppose that means I'm not TS, yet I'm not just a CDer either. Maybe gender fluid is the best term.

[Lucy_Bella]

Maybe gender fluid is the best term.

There doesn't have to be a label attached to it unless you need one for your own sanity.. Nobody knows you better than you know yourself but sometimes even we question that, maybe because of denial( do we really know ourselves?) .. But if you wanna compare a race car driver to being a T.S. I'm pretty sure both chase the fantasy of winning that trophy ( being a cute young girl).. But the reality of being a the race car driver isn't always winning that trophy, yet they still race because it's in their blood they are race car drivers :)..

Amanda , I can't say where you wanna fit in at ( if you're looking for that) only you can answer that and sometimes that answer isn't always easy. But if you are doing it for your own sanity be sure first before you leap in to something you may regret later.. Talking about it to a professional openly is a good decision but hasty labels sometimes have costly consequences... The spectrum is insanely large and one simple label doesn't fit every individual sometimes multiple labels merge and your true position in the spectrum can lift in the fog for short periods and then go back to normal.. Give it some time see if your feelings change, we are all here to help..