A different look at gender

[Lucy Long Legs]

The definition of a person's gender seems to rest entirely on their plumbing arrangements. They are boy or girl, or. if these arrangements have been changed, TS. I am a boy because of my plumbing, which I have no wish to change, but in much of my behaviour and physique I am a girl. I dress as a girl most of the time and am submissive in my relationship with my wife who, I would argue, is more masculine than I am, despite her plumbing. She wears male-type clothes all the time, the make-up in the house is all mine and in the bedroom she takes the lead. She is physically stronger than me and has better developed upper body muscles. She has a larger jawline and neck than me. My equipment is very small and only responds to her taking the lead.
Who is the boy and who is the girl here?

[Kate Simmons]

If a couple complement one another does it really matter who is who? :)

[Lucy Long Legs]

Good point, but we are always asking ourselves these questions about gender.

[Katey888]

Lucy, I think you need to read more here on the forum about gender... it will keep you going for days...

You're describing your physical sex when you talk about plumbing - most simple descriptions of sexuality have three components: physical sex (plumbing); sexual orientation (who we are attracted to) and gender identity (who you feel you are). I believe you're largely describing your gender identity which is not necessarily determined by your physical sex - hence your desire to present feminine most of the time. And vice versa for your wife, I imagine.. :) Sounds like you're both boy and girl, just in different ways.

You also mention submissiveness but I'd suggest that submissiveness is not always connected to any of these components... And it sounds like you have a balanced and good relationship, so why worry...? Enjoy it! :D

Katey x

[mariehart]

I used to wonder about stuff like that but not anymore. While it does make for an interesting discussion ultimately there are no right answers.

I would agree with Katey's assessment. All humans are a mix, some of us are typically male, some typically female and some share both typical male and female traits and even appearance. My gender identity is female, my physical identity is male with certain female characteristics.

It seems to me you are in the lucky position of being able to express both sides of you.

[traci_k]

Plumbing does not always equal gender. The gender binary is a myth, rather more like a spectrum. Sounds like you and your wife compliment each other well and as long as it works, enjoy.

Hugs,

[Shawn_Always]

I used to think in the same "binary" (love the application of that term BTW) way for most of my life until I got to the point I am at now. Finding this forum has been so educational for me. For most of my life the penis\vagina= male\female way of thinking was the only truth I knew...thanks society. Over the last few years though, I've been seeing life in a very different way. For so many, it is that way and will never change. I was very rigid in my beliefs and also very homophobic but for whatever reasons, my view is different and I've just learned to stop asking why and rather just go with it. People can change. Although we may physically be the sum of our parts, ultimately, that is not what defines WHO we are.

[ReineD]

Who is the boy and who is the girl here?

How would your wife feel if she knew that you think yourself more as the girl than she is? :p

But seriously, I think you suffer from rather rigid gender role definitions. Being passive is not female-specific. In fact, modern women are anything but. They hold positions of responsibility in the work force, they are often head of household, often single parents.

As to makeup, most women I know only wear it occasionally. I only wear makeup once or twice per week which means that 95% of the time I do not wear any. And I consider myself to be very much a girl. lol. Wearing "male" clothes? I don't know if your wife buys all her clothes in men's stores but if she doesn't, then believe me, her clothes are decidedly female. Most women today do wear pants and this doesn't make them any less feminine.

I can't argue about your assessment that she is physically stronger than you though. Maybe she works out and you don't? Or maybe you are physically smaller than her? How would her strength compare to a male who is her same size?

But like the others have said, if you are both happy in your relationship why bother defining who is the most masculine or feminine? Definitions are subjective.

[DonnaT]

Gender is a state of one's mind, sex is assigned by society based on ones plumbing.

[Jaylyn]

If the relationship is working why bother determining the roles here? I would say you both are happy it doesn't matter who wears the so called "Pants" in the family.

[Michelle789]

Gender does not equal plumbing.

Your gender identity could be different from your birth sex.

In your marriage it is possible that both of you are transgender, and therefore you are the girl and your wife is the guy.

You might be TG and your wife might not be.

You might both identify as your birth sex but behave in ways that are stereotypically opposite your birth sex.

Your wife could either be a TG man, or she could be a woman who behaves in ways that are more stereotypically masculine.

There is birth sex, gender identity, sexual orientation, gender roles, gender psychology, and personality type. All of these are independent variables, making anything possible with respect to your and your wife's gender identities. Maybe she identifies as androgynous, or bigender, or both male and female.

[devida]

As katey said there is sex, sexual orientation and gender. But I would also like to point out that none of these categories are absolute, they are all spectrums, including sex, as the intersexed will be quick to tell you. Just because you were assigned a particular sex at birth based on a cursory examination of your genitals which might or might not have been that accurate, does not mean that you are the sex you were assigned. In addition, what is sex anyway? Is it the presence of a penis or a vagina? Is it brain chemistry or structure? Is it the presence of secondary sexual characteristics? What if, like you, you have a small penis and your brain structure is more like that of a woman than a man. Are you still male? What if, like many men these days, you have tits? Are you a female in a male body? Are you something in between? The answer is pretty clear. Like a very great many human beings you are somewhere on the spectrum, between man and woman. Does it matter where you are? Maybe to you it does. Maybe you have to find out. But whatever you do you do not have to accept what people have told you about who you are. They don't live in your skin. You do. You get to define yourself. You get to choose. Nobody else has that right. Don't give up the right to define yourself. Don't be a slave. Be you.

[flatlander_48]

Formalized definitions are here:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?162497-Some-Common-Trans-Related-Definitions&p=2636716&viewfull=1#post2636716

Anyway, regarding the original question, my answer would be "Does it matter?". While definitions and understanding those definitions is important, I think it is infinitely better to spend our time living rather than agonizing about where we fall on The Continuum. Unless there is some particular emotional disorder in play, it just isn't necessary. I would much prefer that we consider how we can better align ourselves with the LGBT community at large.

[KellyJameson]

In my opinion submissive men are far more common than submissive women and clothing has nothing to do with gender but certainly does with sex. Clothing designed because of and to affect male sexuality that women wear.

Many men identify with women because of what they think women are, not because of what women are. And much of what they think women are is driven by their sexuality mixed in with the forces that shaped them in childhood.

Many submissive men had very dominant mothers and submissiveness is nothing more than continuing that relationship with a surrogate mother in the form of another woman.

Many women find it highly insulting to be labelled as submissive simply for being women.

Masculine is also not about being dominant and dominance is often an act of fearful aggression needing control so certainly would not be called a form of fearless strength.

Submissiveness and dominance are to opposite expressions of the same thing. Ones relationship and response to uncertainty driven by the fight or flight response that ones temperament presupposes them to and has nothing to do with sex or gender.

[LelaK]

I read a theory of evolution recently that said women became the more docile sex, because men preferred to mate with docile women, so dominant women didn't reproduce as much.

[Desirae]

It seems like a lot of people, including members of this forum, and, in particular, members who are commenting in this thread, continually keep using "outward" type characteristics and behaviors in determining/assigning gender. Frankly, if you want to get technical and right to the nitty gritty, your chromosomal makeup is the final word on what gender you are. And before I get attacked, I'm not saying that your brain gender identity and your chromosomal gender identity or your physical gender can't be incongruent. We all know that can definitely happen. When I read the stories of transitions on these forums, the ongoing theme that always comes to the forefront is about bringing the physical gender identity in line with the psychological gender identity that one feels in their brain. The truth of the matter, though, is that there is really THREE "identities of gender" in each of us: the physical, the psychological, and the chromosomal. Unfortunately, the best that can be done is to bring the psychological gender identity in line with the physical gender identity. There is nothing that can be done about the chromosomal gender identity and, most likely, there never will be. If that were the case, I guess that would be the "total cure" because if a MTF's XY chromosomes could be "converted" to XX, then I guess they would indeed be female. And I'm not going to go into the chromosomal abnormalities that do indeed happen from time to time. Remember that song by Meatloaf called "Two Out Of Three Aint Bad"? Well, two out of three aint bad. At least it shouldn't be because that's all that is achievable, which is making two out of the three identities of gender congruent. I hope no one takes offense to any of this. It is CERTAINLY NOT my intent to offend anyone. I'm merely stating facts.

These stereotypes of male behavior and female behavior have been blown out of the water again and again. My ex was very "dominant" in bed. She initiated sex much more often than me. She knew very well what she liked and what she didn't like, for that matter.

To the OP.....you're still the "boy" even if your gf is bigger than you, stronger than you, more dominant in bed than you, has a stronger jawline than you, dresses masculine, or even if your "equipment" is microscopically small. If you could look at your chromosomes and your gf's chromosomes, there would be no doubt. You should get away from this stereotypical behavior type of thinking. This is 2014. It's not a matter of who is the boy and who is the girl. It's only a matter of what role you take in the relationship. If you're OK with it and she's OK with it, why mess with something that's not broken? If one or both of you are not OK with it, then I guess one or both of you should be asking some seriously poignant questions of yourselves.

[Badwolf]

Along that note Desirae, a lot of women's lib is focused on the same subjects. Women traditionally couldn't identify HOW they wanted to express themselves in bed, because they wanted to meet expectations. They were submissive, wouldn't say what they liked, etc etc etc. Some still enjoy being submissive, others don't. It just is.

[flatlander_48]

It seems like a lot of people, including members of this forum, and, in particular, members who are commenting in this thread, continually keep using "outward" type characteristics and behaviors in determining/assigning gender. Frankly, if you want to get technical and right to the nitty gritty, your chromosomal makeup is the final word on what gender you are.

But, most people don't really know what their chromosome situation is so we only have external observations with which to work.

[NicoleScott]

Not a proper definition, but in a way, gender is the behavioral expectations others place on you based on your sex. Only sometimes does everything fall into place. People with no sex/gender mismatches probably have more trouble understanding those with mismatches.

[Beverley Sims]

Lucy I think you are thinking too hard here, read all the replies and you will be even more confused.
Gender and sexuality are complex subjects that we can only talk about here.
There is a five year course at university that may fill in the gaps.

[CynthiaD]

Your sex is determined by your plumbing, and your gender is determined by your perception of yourself. Neither is strictly binary. Genetics isn't absolute either, because there are XX males and XY females, to say nothing of the other variations.

[Kris Avery]

The only four things I know for sure at this point are:

1--I'm male if you look at the plumbing
2--I have no desire to change the plumbing
3--I have no desire to make a spectacle of myself or my family in public
4--I can't seem to ever reassure my SO of #2 enough :brolleyes:

The rest of the related topics seem open for discussion with my SO.

[susmitha]

Lucy Long Legs is the girl and the wife is the boy in the relationship, I feel.

[Miss Interpretation]

Sex, gender, and relationships are all different issues, but related as well, so I understand what you are saying!

But as other members of this thread had mentioned, the way you define your relationship (submissive/dominant or masculine/feminine) is irrespective of your sex or perceived gender. Whether you want to be the man in public and the woman in private is really completely up to you two! In the end, if you and your wife work well together, nothing else matters. Everything else is just labels.

That's actually one of the problems I think are with our current society: We are too binary with our labels of people. Either you are "male/female," "gay,straight," "evil/good," etc. I think most things in life are more a continuum than a binary!

[mechamoose]

Hi, LLL!

Our wives should sit down and share a beer.

Physically, I'm a beast. Personality-wise, I'm a girl. My wife is a man with boobs.

Roles are roles. There aren't *truly* rules as to who should do what, there are only 'traditions' and 'expectations'.

I'm the nurturer, the decorator, the empath. I'm the cook, I kiss it better. What chromosomes I/you have while doing that don't matter. We each have our parts to play, genetics be damned.

- MM

[noeleena]

Hi,

It seems those of us who are intersexed are over looked because its to hard to understand us and figure us out yet we are the ones who are mis matched and different and dont conform to your normal boy .girl thinking .

so gender has total no meaning at all for my self , as to plumbing depends on what you mean as that too is different as to sexual organs male or female what say we dont have them then what . so if you dont have them is there a gender ,???.....okay next spanner in the cogs

...noeleena...