The 80/20 Rule

[Dana]

There's been a lot of discussion here of late about tolerance among CD's and GG ~ SO's, and what they can accept and what they as SO's cannot accept.
About tolerance, acceptance, negotiation.

I use 80/20 as a starting point. For some it might be 100%. For some it might be more like 40/60%. For some it might be the reverse, such as 60/40%. And still for others, it might be a 50/50% percent.

But, when coming to the negotiating table ~ you need to negotiate the bounderies.

One of the wives posted on the leg shaving thread ~ legs during winter time ~ OK! Sumer time ~ NO! Legs ~ Yes! Chest and arm hair ~ non-negotiable!
Me? I would call that a 50/50% on that subject.

I think for some that that is the stagnation point ~ in that the CD pushes for everything that "she" can get. And, each point needs to be negotiated and agreeded upon.

The percentage to the left is how much she (the wife, SO, the GG) can accept and deal with ~ and the 20% side is the percentage that she cannot, will not ~ in other words ~ the deal breaker ~ cannot accept and deal with.

Just a radom thought ~ would welcome the inputs of any and all others.

(Work with me here! I'm trying to start a dialog! A brainstorming!

[Sweet Susan]

I dont know about the percentages, but I would agree that the crossdresser will push the limits. Afterall, the goal is to look like a woman! Why would I want to look like a woman who looks like a man? I want to shave my legs, my arms, my armpits, and wear make-up and wigs and dresses and lipstick, and everything. I can remember when all I wanted to do was shave my upper thighs! Then all I wanted was to shave my legs. That's all, just my legs. I didn't even want to wear anything. I just wanted to shave my legs. That lasted a day. Once I was dressed up, I needed a wig. Then I needed heels. It's never enough. I can honestly say that I don't want to be a woman, I don't want to have a sex change. But if there were no holds barred, I'm afraid of what I might do. It's never enough.

[Dana]

I dont know about the percentages, but I would agree that the crossdresser will push the limits. Afterall, the goal is to look like a woman! Why would I want to look like a woman who looks like a man? I want to shave my legs, my arms, my armpits, and wear make-up and wigs and dresses and lipstick, and everything. I can remember when all I wanted to do was shave my upper thighs! Then all I wanted was to shave my legs. That's all, just my legs. I didn't even want to wear anything. I just wanted to shave my legs. That lasted a day. Once I was dressed up, I needed a wig. Then I needed heels. It's never enough. I can honestly say that I don't want to be a woman, I don't want to have a sex change. But if there were no holds barred, I'm afraid of what I might do. It's never enough.


I understand what your saying Susan! If I had my way about the whole thing, I would on any given day, as the mood suits me ~ dress in and as any way that I so choose a facey to do so!

I guess what I'm throwing out here, is ways of negotiating?

[Helana]

80/20 does not sound like a reasonable compromise to me. If both persons are really in love then both would be willing to give in a bit extra to make their partner happy so compromises should always end up around the 50/50 mark.

Personally I could not stand for a partner who dictates to me how I should present myself which is why CD issues definitely need to be brought up at the beginning of a relationship. Otherwise you could end up with a person wrong for you. My wardrobe is a reflection of my personality not my partner's personality. I am sure we have all seen our partner's wear things which we dislike but would we place restrictions on their wardrobe/presentation?

[TGMarla]

Good point, Helana. My wife has a few slouchy things she wears to work a bit too much. Although I never say anything, I'm thinking, "Geez, you're wearing that again? And her with a closet full of nice things. But I'm not even up to the 80/20 level with her. However, any time to myself is 100% mine.

[Marla GG]

I think it is generally a bad idea for one partner to make rules about what the other can and can't do. When an SO asks me for advice about how to negotiate with her partner, I never suggest that she dictate to him the what, where, when and how of his dressing. That puts her in a quasi-parental position of having to constantly police his behavior, while he constantly tests the limits. I see this a lot and it doesn't make for a harmonious relationship.

I do encourage each woman to figure out what her own boundaries are and clearly communicate them. That is not the same as making rules. Consider the difference between the following two statements:

1) "I will not allow you to shave your legs."

2) "When you shave your legs, I feel turned off by the way they look, and I am always nervous that other people might notice. I am not comfortable with it."

In the first statement, the wife or girlfriend is telling her partner what he can and cannot do; in the second, she is explaining what her boundaries are, and leaving it up to him to respect them.

Ideally, a woman should not HAVE to make any rules, because her partner should be paying attention to her feelings and should have the sensitivity and maturity to refrain from doing things that upset her. Of course, this only works when she is also sensitive to his needs and willing to accomodate them within reason. Both people have to make an effort to see things from the other's point of view.

A common complaint from SOs is "I give him an inch and he takes a mile." As Sweet Susan said, it's hard to resist pushing the limits. Therefore, I'd like to suggest to SOs that instead of setting limits for him, you try explaining how you feel, make sure he understands the effect his actions are having on you, and give him the opportunity to do the right thing. It is not your responsibility to control his behavior. By taking this approach, you will be encouraging him to think about your comfort level instead of focusing on what you will and won't "let" him do.

[Aileen]

I think it's only reasonable for a woman to allow her man to shave whatever he wants. After all, some bodybuilders shave their whole bodies. I can remember some contestants on Big Brother who shaved their whole bodies. I also think it's reasonable for a woman to not want to see her husband in drag. To say, "I don't want you ever to dress, even if I will never see you in drag" seems unreasonable to me. Just as it would be unreasonable for a husband to never allow his wife to wear pants.

[Adele]

Just a thought but I feel that we should remember that for most of us we probably did not tell our SO about our cross dressing habits until long after we statred seeing each other.

Therefore they did not expect to have to deal with the issues brought about by us wanting to explore our femininity. I respect the boundaries that exist in my relationship because I love my wife, and although I express my feelings and tell her what I'd like to do, if she then turns around and says I'd rather you didn't then so be it. I'm lucky in that she has become more accepting of my desire to dress the more we have spoken about it.

If you aren't in a relationship then you still have to consider your family or friends or work coleagues.

One huge point to make is that she married me because I'm a man and if I don't act like a man in bed ( and she can tell if my minds up to no good) then our relationship will fall apart. Its all about balance and some days the scales swing one way and some days the other.......

[ericaz]

Wow I love this Forum! I have been crossdressing since I was about 12 years old and regarding dressing/relationships ect, this is part of my story. I lived with the same lady for seven years and was entirely closeted, nobody, especially not her knew and during the course of my entire life until then I had told perhaps two people. I did have (and still do) one of the most masculine and macho occupations and lifestyles. Our life together, down to our friends, hobbys, vacations and all the other trappings of a shared life reflected our gender roles. Now, mind you this lady was 11 years my junior, not a very "girly girl" more the tomboy type but for about 5 years we were very happy together. I worked while she got a degree and when she graduated circumstances dictated she had to take a job in a city 500 miles away. SO, during the period of our enforced separation I had more time to crossdress and be on the net and begin to reach out to the CD/TV/TG community. During that time my own conflict about who I am really grew. On one hand the natural course of a man/woman relationship seemed to dictate marrage, family and children and being raised to respect and expect those institutions I believed that would be my future with this women. But as my personal conflict grew and our long distance separation continued, not suprisingly our relationship spun down and down. I take a lot of credit for that due to my total terror at being honest about who I was/am to her. The less able I was to be honest about my inner conflict to her, the less able I was to communicate at all about anything. To say I was in total misery would be a massive understatement. I had buried myself in an image of a life based on the outer structures I presented to the world at large and felt chained to them.

Not suprisingly the relationship ended. I then very suddenly married an old love of mine I had not heard from in many, many years. After my utter unhappiness about not being able to share myself with the most important person in my life, I told my new wife-to-be before the marrige . And she was cool with it! I thought I was in heaven to have at last found someone I would spend my life with who could accept all of me. And yes, I did push the boundries . She would paint my toenails and I would shave a more and more of my body. Pretty soon I was spending a lot of time at home dressed and then complaints began. After all, this women had married a man and I was spending my home time presenting as a female. Then the negotiationing started and the less comfortable I began to feel. Then I began dressing only when she was at work but I had my hopes, at first... unfortunatly she suffered from a number of bewildering mental and emotional disorders ( bipolar and PTSD ). So after three months into the marrige during the course of one her episodes she "outs" me to all my friends. Very juicy stuff for the gossip mill. Not long after this we divorced.

During the course of all this divorce mess I find out that low and behold my ex-girlfriend has come of of the closet. She is a lesbian! Now I am totally devastated. And do I feel like a total fool who because of his own hang ups and lack of honesty perhaps missed the chance of a lifetime to completly examine an entire new life with somone who did mostly completly love him.

So does this story have a moral? I dont know. All I can tell you is I learned the very, very hard way, communicate. We all have to be who we are. Because who else can we be? Today I am in gender counsoling and participate in the TG/CD community in a limited way and oddly enough, for now anyway my desire to dress has diminished rather than increased. I think because I expend less energy trying to deny and repress an large part of myself it doesnt control me as much as it used to. Wheres it all going to go? I dont know. But I'll keep you informed.

[kittypw GG]

Oh wise, wise Marla,
I don't think that we as women enjoy controlling or dictating to another person. What we really want is equality. I have tried many ways to communicate to my husband my feelings and it seems to fall on deaf ears. I hear what he wants and try to accomodate them as much as I can but the feelings have to be there, I am not that good of an actress. What you have suggested here is exactly the direction I have currently been exploring. I bought a book on cognitive behavioral therapy (for myself not my husband) so that I can learn to communicate in just this manner. It takes a whole new way of looking at things. It is about setting boundries not just with your spouse but with other people in your life, coworkers, relatives etc. Everyone deserves to live the life that makes them feel satified and happy. I feel like I have been put into the position of being responsible for his behavior and therfore in a motherly role which I dispise and resent. I had this kind of relationship when I was in high school, I never thought that I would have one in my 40's. So there is a new breeze blowing in my life. A change in thinking and responding. I will try to set the pace and pave the way to enlightenment and maybe my hubby will learn how to communicate also. I have always said that communicating helps you gain insight, insight helps you gain confidence and confidence will help you dispell fear. Fear is the reining emotion when it comes to crossdressing for most GG's. I don't know how we managed to get so lucky as to have you on this forum Marla, you are truly a person to look up to and one I aspire to be more like. Hats off to you.
The book is called "Thoughts & Feelings: Taking Control of Your Moods and Your Life" by Matthew McKay, Ph.D, Martha Davis, Ph.D, and Patrick Fanning



Ideally, a woman should not HAVE to make any rules, because her partner should be paying attention to her feelings and should have the sensitivity and maturity to refrain from doing things that upset her. Of course, this only works when she is also sensitive to his needs and willing to accomodate them within reason. Both people have to make an effort to see things from the other's point of view.

A common complaint from SOs is "I give him an inch and he takes a mile." As Sweet Susan said, it's hard to resist pushing the limits. Therefore, I'd like to suggest to SOs that instead of setting limits for him, you try explaining how you feel, make sure he understands the effect his actions are having on you, and give him the opportunity to do the right thing. It is not your responsibility to control his behavior. By taking this approach, you will be encouraging him to think about your comfort level instead of focusing on what you will and won't "let" him do.

[GypsyKaren]

Hi Dana

One golden rule I live by is this: am I doing or wearing anything that will embarrass my wife, and I always ask her this to make sure I'm not. If she ever sees a problem or has any concerns, we sit down and discuss it, and reach a solution. I usually follow her advice, as she only has my best interests at heart, and she's usually right. I think a lot of us get the "kid in the candy store" syndrome, I know I do, so I'm glad to have someone watching out for me.

GypsyKaren

[Sarahgurl371]

Great thread. Marla as always you make some good points. Kitty, I empathize with you, we are kinda in a reversed situation on some levels.

First a question. After you have learned that your SO is a CD/TG, what is the difference as to what he wears, or shaves? I know that on its face that is a very simple question to answer. My point is this, (one I have tried to relate to my wife for a long time now) If I have truthfully and completely explained how I feel inside, ie. at times female, and you have acknowledged and decided to stay married to me, again what difference does it make what I wear or shave? If I say that I feel female, and wish to present myself as such, what part of that is any less than the other? Why is a wig OK, but not make up? Or lingerie is fine, but no dresses? Or shaving my chest is OK, but no breast forms?

There are many variations in the CD/TG spectrum. Once I have explained myself and my feelings (which I have done at length, over and over) and say "I do not want to look like a man in a dress, I want to look like a woman", a woman, at least the commonly imaged western woman, doesn't have hairy legs, or arms, or chest. She dresses as the mood strikes her, or is practical. May wear alot of makeup or none at all, etc.

I have never told my spouse that she cannot do anything, (OK, I asked her to keep her long hair many years ago, cuz I like long hair, but she is free to cut it if she wishes). She wears what she wishes, does what she wishes, I do not own her body or mind. Why should I not receive the same in return?

Yes we tend to push boundaries. We have been thinking about our physical appearance for many years, never having the opportunity to completely see ourselves as we wish. So when given an inch, the tendency is to take a mile. We have wanted this for so long. My idea about loving someone is not holding them back, but encouraging and supporting them to be thier best, whatever that is. Absolutley YES there needs to be a mutual respect, but when it comes to MY self image, who is in charge?

Yes boundaries need to be set. Yes there are deal breakers. Kitty this is were I think we are reversed. I had given my wife complete authority over my CDing. I did not dress unless I had permission. I did not do anything relating to my sexuality, unless she gave the OK. (She will probably get mad if she reads this) Her response, in my view, was OK don't do it. I tried to be extremely respectful of her feelings and boundaries. I felt that she would not even concede one point. My dresing had regressed tremendously, for her sake, for her happiness. Niether one of us was happy. I gave an inch, she took a mile.

When I asked for her acceptance, I meant her acceptance of how I feel inside, not just the clothes I wish to wear to make the outside look that way. As many GG's here have said, Its not about the clothes.

I love my wife very much. I have and will in the future, consider her and her feelings about all this, as I do in my "guy" life as well. There are two of us in this marriage. We both need to feel as though we are getting something positive from this union. Where to set those boundaries at, in anything, is all gray. But isn't a person's physical appearance thier own? Yes the CD/TG thing throws a curve ball into the mix, Yes, society will maybe make a judgement upon her for my appearance, and I must respect that my actions have consequences. I choose to be with her, does she choose to be with me? Or her idea of me?

[Aloha_Dana]

Dana,

In our house, I'd guess it's more like 5/95! She knows. She can joke about it. But participate? No way. See me like that? No way. The other night we went to a formal ball and I asked her if I could wear a pair of panties - she agreed. That is as far as I've ever gotten. I'm her man and she doesn't want that to change.

Dana

[Butterfly Bill]

As Popeye said "I yams what I yams" :);):D

[Tamara Barclay]

This all falls into one catagory. RESPECT!!!!!!
As soon as you lose respect for your wifes feelings you have entered a selfish and downward spiral.
It doesn't matter if it is a wedding dress collection or restoring a '69 Mach 1. If you push her limits to hard it will fall apart.

Pretend for a moment you are not a CD...who would want our our wives to come home, bind their chests,and put on a strap on? And not just every now and then. EVERY NIGHT she wants to do this. And then she wants you to call her a male name. And she stops shaving her legs and underarms. Then wants to go out in public as a man. She starts to spend alot of money on mens clothes, then decides to keep her hair short in a "male" cut. During sex she wants to take the "male" role. Ignoring the "fantasy" some of us have about role reversal....is this the way you want your wife to be? So why do we find it so hard to understand when our wives are not totally thrilled?

[Helana]

Tamara

If I loved her I would make adjustments to accommodate whatever behaviour she wants to exhibit. Just look at the massive differences in how GGs look and behave from 50 years ago to today and see how much men have had to adjust. Bring a man from the 1950s in todays world and he would be feeling the same level of indignation as you describe but we would be laughing at the silliness of his mindset.

Reality is a mindgame, it is quite easy to adjust to new dynamics in a relationship if you WANT to. The question is how much how much do you want it - how much do you love your partner, how much does your partner love you to respect what you want and make adjustments to accommodate your needs as well.

Both parties have to respect the feelings of each other period, there are no exceptions. The argument that CDing is somehow different from any other issue in a partnership just falls flat on its face. Unusual perhaps, but nothing which cannot be successfully negotiated to the satisfaction of both parties.

[Tamara Barclay]

Acceptance because of unconditional love is one thing, being an active part of the behavior is another.

[Rachel Ann]

If you apply the 80/20 rule twice, you get a 96/4 rule! :D

[Dana]

I used the 80/20 as an opening point ~ what I was mostly referring to was negotiation ~ an lets face this if your in a relationship ~ you've got to negotiate ~ if nothing else about what to do about dinner ever day.

Personally, I don't belive that "absolutes" work in a relationship between anyone. When you start bringing "absolutes" to the table, ultimatiam's arent' far behind ~ and that generally leads to all or nothing ~ which leads to a war.

For all of us, is a person possess 80% of the qualities we're looking for in a mate, and 20% of what we're not looking for or even a 90/10 split, then I would say that person was a keeper. Trouble is that all to many of us, are looking for a 100 "per center". Either they've absolutely have got to have 100% of all of the qualities of what they're looking for ~ or the deal is off! Those people are usually very lonely people. No one is perfect.

The thing that a lot of women just don't get about men ~ is that men ~ (and I don't care if you're just a "normal" guy who doesn't crossdress) want, need, and crave acceptance, validation, compaionship, family and want, need, desire and crave to feel sexy, desirable and interesting ~ GASP~! Just like women do.

Even factoring out the crossdressing variable COMPLETELY ~ out of the equation, men, and I do mean all men ~ want what I just described in the above paragraph.

The 80/20 percentage ~ isn't so much my saying a setting of bounderies, but of negotating what is need to make the relationshp work. To do so, would be like saying, "You can have this, and you can have that, and you can do this and you can do that,...............but you can't have this, do this, nor have that!

You tell that to a man ~ and we as heterosexual crossdressers are men (apolgies and respects to others of the TG spectrum ~ my discussion is limited to heterosexual crossdressers here) and the very thing you tell him he can't have or do is the very thing they're going to become focused on.

Most, men are going to want the very thing that you told them they can't have or can't do ~ and didn't even know they wanted it or needed it until you told them they couldn't do it or have it!

You're welcomed to join in the dialog ~ and what I'm attempting to do is open a dialog of discussion here ~ about a simple ~ yet complicated subject.
A paradox if you would.

Even if you find yourself on the "totally accepting, helping, participating" side of the spectrum / equation as a GG SO, there are still problems and issues to be dealt with.

Everyday, I get out of the bed, and I look in the mirror, one of the first things that I tell myself is, "Dana! Try your best today not to be an AH! The world is covered up with them, has all it can handle, and doesn't need not one single more!"

But, they're out there, just waiting outside of our front door, waiting to beat you up, just to see the look on your face. And, you don't even have to do anything other than be yourself. Factor in being just a little bit different from the so called "norm" and its like a pack of wolves scenting a warm blood trail.

[Sedona]

Pretend for a moment you are not a CD...who would want our our wives to come home, bind their chests,and put on a strap on? And not just every now and then. EVERY NIGHT she wants to do this. And then she wants you to call her a male name. And she stops shaving her legs and underarms. Then wants to go out in public as a man. She starts to spend alot of money on mens clothes, then decides to keep her hair short in a "male" cut. During sex she wants to take the "male" role. Ignoring the "fantasy" some of us have about role reversal....is this the way you want your wife to be? So why do we find it so hard to understand when our wives are not totally thrilled?

Couldn't agree more with this. Some folks may be okay with the "don't let the door hit you on the a#$" but I think that there's probably a strong correlation between this attitude and ending up alone. I for one love having a partner.

When I get the urges to just say f-iyt and wax, pluck and completely dress, I always think about the time she said "what if I told you that I wanted to grow wiry thick hair all over my body and wear nothing but flannel and ratty jeans, and I'm growing a goatee." GAAAAH!, nuf said.

Probably a little sexist, but there's an old joke regarding how to deal with women: You have one choice to make: Do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy?

No, men aren't always right (we just think we are), and women aren't always demanding, but keeping this thought in the back of my head has helped me out from time to time.

Cheers!

[Helana]

I agree, placing restrictions is ultimately counter-productive because people will want even more the thing which is prohibited. When somebody draws a line in the sand and tells you not to step over it, how many of us can resist not doing so....

As Marla said, the woman needs to communicate her likes and dislikes and let both parties agree on some principles of behaviour but not rigid, inflexible rules. Although crossdressing is more than a habit, there is no need to treat it differently from any other form of interest which men frequently do which drives women mad - such as spending too much time around cars, motorbikes, playing golf, playing computer games! This is a question of finding an acceptable balance not drawing up the Queensbury rules for boxing.

BTW with regard to the statements about seeing your SOs hairy, it is a natural reaction to give the idea a shudder just as it is normal for women to react poorly to CDing. But think beyond your instant reaction. Would your wife's want to let her body hair grow become such a huge issue that you would fight constantly and consider separation? My gf rarely shaves her legs and her leg hair does not bother me one bit. Why should it? I fell in love with the person not the legs. Beauty is not skin deep.

[Ms. Donna]

Hi Dana

One golden rule I live by is this: am I doing or wearing anything that will embarrass my wife, and I always ask her this to make sure I'm not. If she ever sees a problem or has any concerns, we sit down and discuss it, and reach a solution. I usually follow her advice, as she only has my best interests at heart, and she's usually right. I think a lot of us get the "kid in the candy store" syndrome, I know I do, so I'm glad to have someone watching out for me.

GypsyKaren

This is pretty much the arrangement we have at home. If my wife is uncomfortable with what I'm wearing, I don't fight her on it (I used to but quickly found that I got nowhere fast). Ultimately, the amount of times she objects to something are few and far between.

It amounts to mutual respect. I present as somewhere 'in-between' most of the time and she come to accept this. As she has taken into consideration what I need, it's only right that I do the same.

Love & Stuff,
Donna

[Monica55cd]

[QUOTE=Marla GG]
Consider the difference between the following two statements:

1) "I will not allow you to shave your legs."

2) "When you shave your legs, I feel turned off by the way they look, and I am always nervous that other people might notice. I am not comfortable with it."

In the first statement, the wife or girlfriend is telling her partner what he can and cannot do; in the second, she is explaining what her boundaries are, and leaving it up to him to respect them.

Ideally, a woman should not HAVE to make any rules, because her partner should be paying attention to her feelings and should have the sensitivity and maturity to refrain from doing things that upset her. Of course, this only works when she is also sensitive to his needs and willing to accomodate them within reason. Both people have to make an effort to see things from the other's point of view.

Marla..this point is something that happens with me and my GF she tells me how it makes her feel that my toe nails are polished. It "creeps" her out she says.... but what about his very strong need in me to want to feel my fem expresion.. painting my toe nails is the only thing i can do and keep it with me privatly all the time...she then feels that well i guess you dont love me enough to not paint your toe nails... How do I explain to her that I feel I do love her and its not that cut and dry??
buy the way I appreciate your views and opinons in your posts..they are very inciteful....thanks ..Monica

[Sage GG]

One of the problems with rules and boundaries is that they change.

Friday night when I got home I was greeted by Rena who had just cooked supper, we sat around having a cup of tea and chatting but this morning I was very glad to have the other side of his persona in the bedroom.

Rena is a wonderful friend who I can shop with, we go on line and check out catalogs. I dearly love my husband and if there is a half dead mouse the cats dragged in I need him to be there, or God forbid a spider.

Having a CD in the family has many positive aspects, you just have to be open to it. I find that its the best of both worlds. The only down side is the expense, (she has wonderful taste). I'm sure that some where in the future we could hit a bump or two that we will have to negotiate but we have been married for many years and we have worked out everything else.

Any relationship is work but its also rewarding. No one comes into this world with a stamp on their butt from God guaranteeing an easy life but if we love one anther it will work out best for all.
As for 80/20 I'm sure that changes each and everyday for most people.


Sage