Masculine and feminine music?

[Helena Gwyn]

When I work I always put on music, calming music like tai chi or soundtracks and scores of movies like the first transformers-movie or recently the deluxe version of the man of steel. Some of these tracks are very heroic or full of action. I started wondering whether you could also say they have a certain amount of testosterone in them. I was thinking of heroic movies with a female lead and those soundtracks and I'm still pondering about this.
Is there musically a difference between male and female heroism? Is there such a thing as masculine and feminine music? What are your thoughts about that?

[Barbara Jo]

Not really. ....IMO
I think what comes into play is learned is cultural bias that says certain sounds are for females and certain sounds are for males.
The same is true for colors and saying such things like, men should not like the beauty of flowers, etc .

BTW..... Carlos Santana has said that his father had taught him that there are feminine and masculine parts of music....
His father said that rhythm is the masculine part and the melody is the feminine part and both parts should be married together.

[CynthiaD]

This reminds me of the 60's hit "Chapel of Love." None of the boys could stand it, but it hit number 1 on the charts, because every girl my age bought a copy.

[Barbara Jo]

This reminds me of the 60's hit "Chapel of Love." None of the boys could stand it, but it hit number 1 on the charts, because every girl my age bought a copy.
I think that has more to do with the lyrics than the music
What "normal"' female does not dream about their wedding while boys just want to maintain their "freedom"?

[Kate Simmons]

Getting in touch with the music is what makes it a personable experience, male or female.:)

[Tracii G]

I think you are pondering something that isn't there.

[devida]

There is a fascination in this forum to define all kinds of things in terms of masculine and feminine. This really baffles me. I do not understand how this is useful.

My somewhat lame guess would be that some cross dressers feel that by defining traits, preferences, emotions, gestures and who knows what else as either masculine or feminine they will be able to control the conflict they feel over cross dressing? That is a pretty bad theory but I am just floundering here. What's it all about?

Or is it that cross dressers really want to know all the minute details about some archetypal woman who doesn't exist so that they might be able to pass? Even though everyone has to know that these types of characterizations are just kind of silly stereotyping?

I do understand that a lot of cross dressing behavior has to do with the fantasy of becoming another gender and I think that is great. But for me gender has to do with the way I feel about me. For me it would be kind of stifling to have this check list of what is masculine and feminine. Because then I would have to be checking myself against this checklist to make sure I was acting right.

And don't we have enough gendering in society without having to look for new ways to seperate men from women?

Sorry to be so down on a pretty innocuous question. Don't take it personally OP!

Just one more point.

I should mention that in the history of music there have been numerous attempts to gender music as masculine or feminine. Mostly this has come as a result of social and governmental attempts to sell certain music as appropriate for male patriotism (the honor of dying for your country is more palatable with a heroic soundtrack). This attempt was only successful during wartime or times of threats against the nation. Some governments (Soviet Russia, Nazi Germany) banned certain music on the basis of its alleged femininity. Interestingly new music, for example rock and roll in the fifties, is sometimes attacked, if not on racial grounds, on the basis that it was effeminate.

Gender conformity always a useful stick with which to beat people!

[mechamoose]

Isn't music more about emotions than anything gender related?

If I'm listening to aggressive music (Rob Zombie, System Of A Down, NIN) I'm *feeling* something.

If I'm listening to emotional music (Tori Amos, Annie Lennox, Bonnie Raitt) I;m feeling *different* things.

What does gender have to do with that?

- MM

[Michelle789]

Is there such a thing as masculine and feminine music?

There is no such thing.

Music is music. I just enjoy whatever makes me happy :) I am currently listening to "You can't hurry love" by the Supremes.

[Cara Lacey]

My wife and I do a half hour of rowing everyday, and we use the same iPod while we row.
She listens to almost all female artists, while I listen to almost all male artists.
Gleam from that what you will.

[noeleena]

Hi,

Wether you accept or reject this is over to you ,

Women were the .....FIRST....to make drums and play them , and yes there is big differences with in music and difference between male and female , And allso depends on who scored the music = wrote it and set the parts , = say what instrurments are to be played

and how and with feeling this is very importaint , the difference between a young player learning and one who can put so much in to how that one plays the music or say singing ,

I can beat the drum or play it to great effect and get different tones from my drums .

In other words making my music come alive,

...noeleena...

[Zylia]

The fact that music is sold as a gendered product is the most pessimistic interpretation of your question, but obviously not patently false.

More to your point, music has been used within a narrative context (or as a narrative itself) to represent characters, ideas and actions for ages, e.g. aggressive Mars (http://youtu.be/F4oDDmoWf1M), lovely Venus (http://youtu.be/oKvG0RU4_fI), majestic Jupiter (http://youtu.be/_A-LNkuqq6g) and mythical Saturn (http://youtu.be/VQ0Z6kD06Us), or, based on that, aggressive Darth Vader (http://youtu.be/jH6wXaLQIMQ), lovely princess Leia (http://youtu.be/7KBygZLzsbs), majestic Star Wars (http://youtu.be/yptp1yCCRWk) and the mythical Force (http://youtu.be/u2W5YPQJqUs?t=2m24s). Why we associate 'strong' rhythms and brass instruments with masculinity and syncopation and woodwinds with femininity is part of the social construct we call gender as much as masculine and feminine clothing. I'd say it's part of our conditioning.

[Teresa]

Helena I agree with most of the replies but then I thought about an orchestra many of the string section are now women, whereas the brass and percussion are male. So maybe women do relate to the softer tones of a violin and men relate to UM PAH PAH and the crash bang of drums !
You only have to look at the music men march to war with !!

[Marcelle]

Hi Helena,

I personally believe that music has suffered the same societal "nausea" of what is "feminine" and what is "masculine" as emotions/behaviors have (girls are demure, caring, nurturing / boys are brash, protecting, aggressive). When it comes right down to it there is no true feminine / masculine it is only what history/social conditions have dictated it thus.

To get to your question Helena . . . I can see why some may think music is more masculine or feminine sounding based on how we (society) defines masculine or feminine (adventurous, booming, exciting themes - masculine / soft, nurturing, loving themes - feminine). However, IMO these are only our manifestations of music based on antiquated concepts of masculine or feminine.

Hugs

Isha

[noeleena]

Hi,

as you know im a member of 4 bands 3 are Brass and im the only side drummer , we have two women who are percussion in our Australian Bands with two women on cornet the other concert band,s have about 15 women on wind and brass , here in Oamaru we have 5 women two tenor horn 1 cornet and two other horn,s and my self drumming ,

The 4 th band is Scottish some 35 members , we have women one piper 5 tenor drummers and one side drummer , ill be playing the bass drum now there could be a few more women one woman iv not met as yet is a bass drummer i hope to meet her next Monday at practise

so we do have a good number of women in our bands and not just the wood wind or as said the more female softer tones ,

if i site other bands youll find many women on brass and drums and very good players ,

the reason women were not included in bands was it was thought that because it was fighting music and involved war is the reason and men did not think women should be there so men took it over , now to day men have ...HAD ...to accept we women can do as good as men

and in some case,s have taken over where many men have passed on and its women filling that role if you like apart from we can enjoy music as well and that covers a wide spectrum ,

Weres all the young men today not in the bands like it was 30 to 40 years ago and the schools are not teaching music as was done then sad to say , part of the problem is computers and those other thing,es games what ever has taken away the to learn and play insentive i spos of taking time to learn what music is about and play in a band.

I play the softer wind instrments and and the accordion, can be male or female its what you put into it and the enjoyment for others as well as your self .

...noeleena...

[Ressie]

Most women in my age group love Motown from the '60s and '70s, while the guys prefer hard rock. I suppose some movie sountrack composers occasionally think along the lines of masculine vs. feminine, but music is more about tension and release. Some female musicians have more of a passive, melodic approach, while many men are very aggressive in their playing. Of course there are exceptions. But I don't know of any musicians or composers that intentionally think feminine/masculine in their performance or writing.

I'd love to hear a response from Wendy Carlos.

[Jaylyn]

I don't feel music has a gender. I believe the words may be taken as gender specific though. I loved Elvis growing up. Playing in several bands we members would noticed some songs the girls would grab the guys and drag them to the dance floor while some songs the guys would ask the girls to dance. I quit playing the sixties and early seventies music and have gone country. This is definitely true here.

[BillieJoEllen]

Remember, most music throughout history has been written by males. Does that say anything? I've noticed that most music played is more emotional when interpreted by a very talented female. I love classical music.

[samantha rogers]

All I can say is that my tastes have opened up. For years, part of the denial of my gid manifested in a professed hatred of dance and of obviously dance oriented music. Now I realuze that was an attempt to guard against anyone perceiving me as "femine" in any way. Sigh...what a waste. Lol
Now that I know so much better who I truly am and accept and love that person, I find I love almost nothing better than to dance and my ipod is now filled with current dance tunes, all nestled right alongside the hard rock, punk and metal I always loved. And I am so much happier.

[Amy Fakley]

I've always liked the music I've liked and I've not really cared so much about the larger cultural context.
As it turns out what I like is ambient electronica and house music, but also jam bands and classic rock.

Anyhow, one day I'm at work about 10 years ago, blasting some house, just gettin' down with myself while I'm coding something up, and one of my co-workers pops his head in and says "dude, you like some seriously gay music". Actually "music to slap another man's ass by" I think it how he put it.

at which point I realized that through the walls, my office probably sounded like the love parade every time I was at work! :-)

then I put on some Skynyrd because I was all self-conscious about it
silly, I know, but I like the music I like :-)

[xoMindyxo]

Hmmm..I listen to classic rock, metal, punk rock, old school country, and, avant garde music.

For me, being a musician, I have an acute ear for a well thought out song, and, great hooks and melody. Different strokes for different folks ! :)

[Katey888]

:lol:

There are some good answers here... I don't think it's impossible for us to have a bit of fun on MtF - nice to have a diversion from those weightier, philosophical issues we normally discuss... (and at least nobody here is telling us what music we should be listening too... :devil: although it's early days yet...)

I think Zylia's right with the conditioning idea... although I've always thought it interesting that there are not many female classical composers - no judgment there, there are plenty of quality modern music writers and performers - probably just an era thing... :thinking:

Devida asks a good question too: why do we seem overly keen to categorise everything with the gender binary...? Of all things I'd have to say music is something that exhibits no overt masculinity or femininity to me... but music to dance by - and how..? That's a different question... :)

I think there are types of music that lend themselves to a slightly more feminine 'bop and sway' than others... I like those for a bit of kitchen 'bake 'n' shake' that happens on a regular basis...

Movie soundtracks are a different animal altogether - again, very male-dominated composers, but they're also writing for a movie industry that is also male-dominated in terms of plot, characters... there's another whole thread there, on why the movie industry continues to promote machismo - where even the female heroines generally have to adopt male traits... which is the other OP question - or a nice digression.. :) Hollywood hugely reinforces gender conditioning - it's rare that anything really thought-provoking or iconoclastic emerges from that glitzy, glossy, money-making machine, and even more rare that females feature in those type of films, other than as stereotypes or exploitatively...

More to ponder on there - but isn't a lot of that reinforcement and conditioning that goes on, is what also makes it so difficult for society to accept what we do...? Now if only there was a major league, crossdressing, Hollywood producer or director... You'd think that Tarantino would have to be up for something like that, perhaps...?

Katey x

[Helena Gwyn]

Thank you all for sharing your thorough opinions.

I never intended to categorise music gender-specifically with my question. It's like some have said, it's presented at us and conditioned like that. I'm curious at the soundtrack of the solo Wonder Woman movie that will come out in a few years, what it will sound like. But then again, Wonder Woman as a character itself is perhaps already conditioned as well.

I do think that there's a correlation between the physical appearance of a man or a woman and how we perceive something to be more masculine or more feminine. F.e. men tend to be taller, bigger, stronger then women, and women tend to be more elegant and gracefully then men. Historically and culturally this might unconsciously have fed society's view on what is masculine and feminine, but that doesn't mean we have to agree with that off course.

For time to time I'm being asked to teach dance to children or youngster. Sometimes certain teachers or dancers tell me that I do the wrong moves on the wrong type of music. I always say that dancing to me is like breathing in music, and breathing out movement. It's based upon what the music tells you to do, and all the moves ever invented started out as someone just doing them trusting what they felt because of the music.

[mechamoose]

I guess that the question I would have is do you mean gender *targeted* music, or music that appeals to you in different modes?

Your application (teaching) is a curveball to this. I can rock out to 'all the single ladies' around my kitchen, but in a classroom, that might be different.

If your goal is to break down the assumed wall between 'male engineered' vs 'female engineered' music, then doing 'off gender' music and just rolling with it as if it was 'normal', then I think you are in ok territory. It seems less clear about music for your mode.

- MM

[Helena Gwyn]

I was just talking about music in general and not having any goals with it. The question just popped into my mind when listening to a soundtrack and I thought I'd share it here.

What do you mean with 'music for your mode' and 'is a curveball to this'? I'm not natively speaking english so some expressions or words might be lost to me.

[Wildaboutheels]

Music is universal and for some reason, the "appreciation" of it seems to be built in, to most Humans, but as far as masculine or feminine? It's likely most due to association of where and when someone heard it and WHAT they were looking at.

I think music can easily be compared to scents, whether it be colognes or perfumes, various air fresheners, deodorants, freshly cut grass or a zillion other things. One person's favorite smell might be repulsive to someone else.

I'd be willing to bet that most people, if blindfolded at a cosmetics counter, would be easily confused as to to "male" or "female" cologne if asked to smell a dozen different ones.

[typhoidmary]

i definitely think some of my favourite artists are the kind of thing only depressed and directionless male 20-somethings listen to XD

but seriously I stopped perceiving music as being more feminine or masculine a long time ago, I always just liked what I liked and my friends are the same so I never really got exposed to that way of thinking. I'd bet if there was a spectrum between music that's manly and music that's girly, nothing I listen to would be all that far in either direction.

[StarrOfDelite]

This reminds me of the 60's hit "Chapel of Love." None of the boys could stand it, but it hit number 1 on the charts, because every girl my age bought a copy.

I remember the song well. There are several versions out there, but the famous one was done by 'The Dixie Cups' who were an all-girl group.

If we're talking about 1960's rock and roll, let me ask you this question. Is 'Soldier Boy" the number one hit from 1962 by the Shirelles a chick song or a guy song? It's sung from the female perspective, but what male could not be ego massaged by the thought of having a faithful girlfriend back home while he is off defending Baseball, Hot Dogs, Apple Pie and Chevrolet?

My own personal confession: I can sing a hot falsetto version of Soldier Boy, and once was complimented by a neighbor lady who heard me when I was absent-mindedly doing my shtick at the community mail box (in DRAB).

[Beverley Sims]

I suppose there is in there somewhere.
I just like music and don't think much about the type that it is.