3 yr old daughter told wife "only girls can wear lip gloss"

[bimini1]

Little background. My wife knew about and supported me long before we married 14 years ago. With a new child the dynamic changed a bit but she is still for the most part encouraging.

We give our daughter a little clear flavored gloss from time to time to play around with. Well yesterday she turns to my wife a says only girls can wear lip gloss. Wife says she tried to use it as a teachable moment and asked her 'who told you that?' Daughter responded that "I told me that" and insisted that boys don't wear that. My wife then went on to quaintly explain to her that sometimes boys like to wear it too. And that there is nothing wrong with that if they do.
We are trying to raise her like that.

The same thing happened to me a few weeks ago at a school carnival where they painted my daughter's nails. I gave her the same explanation even though it unnerved me a bit. I am amazed at how much and how quickly they observe and start formalizing ideas about gender. This is what they see in the world. She has a 5 year old girl cousin and that is alot of what she talks about when they are together, what boys don't do.

We don't know how we will approach this issue as she gets older because we want her to think for herself.

How do you think we handled it? Would you have said anything different? Comments and observations/advice from other parents here welcome, thanks.

[JamieG]

I think the two of you handled it right. At that age, you don't want to get too preachy, or go into too many details, but you don't want her to think you agree with rigid-gendering either.

I have two girls, ages 5 and 9, that we are also trying to raise to be open-minded. Neither knows I'm a crossdresser, although both know that I have participated in a few charity drag shows. The 9 year old asked me the other day if boys wore eye shadow. I said "Some do." She then asked, "Do you wear eye shadow?" Thinking quickly, I said, "If the occasion calls for it," which is truthful even though it might lead her to believe that I only do it for the drag shows. Interestingly, she then said, "I think you should wear black shadow and paint your nails black." Apparently, she wants a goth-dad.

[Eryn]

I think that you handled it fine. The sticky bit comes as she gets older and is more subject to outside influences, like her friends, who are going to try and teach her things that are contrary to what you are trying to teach. They will tell her things like boys don't wear lip gloss and, if she disagrees, they will use rather cruel techniques, such as ostracism, to turn her to their point of view. It's not nice but that's how childhood relationships work. The only defense is to raise her to have confidence in herself.

[Annaliese]

It is good to see parents raising there children, with open minds

[Carolina]

Well done. I also believe we should raise our children to be open minded. Mine are teenagers already. They don't know about my CDing but we've tried to raise them with an accepting mind. A couple of our best friends happen to be gays living together and the kids see that it is absolutely normal. Having said all of that i don't think I would share my CDing with my children
Best

[Teresa]

Bimini, I know it sounds sexist but it's going to be easier with a girl than a boy, see how easy it is to fall into the gender trap ! You probably wouldn't have the same conversation with a boy !
No one can comment if you're doing it right or wrong and you won't know until it's too late ! Questions like this have appeared before and the general feeling is try and keep your CDing away from children until they're old enough to really understand.
That's easier said than done !

[renees]

I think it also depends alot on the children and how they've been raised. I have a ten year old daughter and four year old son. We have tried to teach our ten year old tolerance of others. She also has an older sister who has a very diverse group of friends and seems very accepting. She has seen my SO and I give each other pedicures and paint each others nails and thinks nothing of it.

Recently my four year old came into our bedroom (we thought he wad asleep) and my SO had breast forms on with a pink sports bra and nails done and painted pink and he very matter of factly got on the bed and stated that my SO looked "pinkalicious". He then commented that my SO's boobies looked bigger than mine and asked if he could call my SO Mama too!

[Eryn]

BTW, I am reminded of a situation I encountered a while back at DSW. I was trying on shoes in the clearance section and in the next aisle was a mother and her young (preschool) son. Well, put any child that age of either gender next to a rack of high heel shoes and pretty soon they'll be clomping around in them! The mom had made her selection and said to the son "Billy, put those back. You can play with mine when we get home!"

I wanted to hug her, but restrained myself! A lot of parents are bringing their children up without the knee-jerk gender hangups that plagued my generation. Billy probably isn't TG, but he has just received affirmation that it is OK to be the person he is.

[bimini1]

Navigating these waters is going to be very tricky as she gets older as I don't feel I'll ever be comfy with her knowing who I really am. Which in and of itself causes me some guilt. But it is what it is and I am going to have to deal with it.

I met a woman while out dressed a few weeks ago who was very curious about us. We had a great conversation. She said her sons play dress up in her stuff all the time and she had zero problem with it. But she did seem to want to draw the line at homosexuality. She kept saying just because they play like this doesn't mean they're going to grow up to be gay. That kinda threw me but again, it is what it is.

Sometimes I think somehow the rest of the world is moving forward on transcending gender roles and dress yet I seem to be stuck in antiquated thought processes about it when in fact, people like us should be showing them the way. Thanks for your responses.

[LelaK]

A lot of us CDs here call ourselves girls. Little kids surely have different definitions of boy, girl, man, woman, than do older kids and adults. They likely tend to define girls as anyone who dresses and acts like a "girl". So there may still be some stereotypes to overcome. You may consider telling her that anyone can call oneself a boy or a girl no matter how one dresses or acts. Do you agree? A boy can even be a girl sometimes and a girl can be a boy, any time they want to.

[devida]

To my daughter's dismay my 4 year old grand daughter has contracted the Disney Princess disease. My daughter and her husband are acutely aware of the pressure on children to gender and aware that this is more driven by advertizing and the corporations selling gendered products (Disney) as by normal processes of socialization. T hey consider it quite harmful, especially for girls. They feel, though, that the best way to respond is with bland disinterest rather than rejection and to encourage gender neutral behavior and role models. So my daughter said she hoped that the examples of my wife and I who really are gender neutral and her husband's consistent encouragement of strength and self confidence in my grand daughter will help. My daughter and her husband (he is a professor, she is a lawyer) know very well that women will, by the time their daughter is an adult, be dominant in the workplace and in most other areas and that allowing her to be taught submissive roles (like the princess) will not help her. But it is an acute problem for young parents. There is such a huge amount of money to be made by enforcing gender stereotypes by so many businesses that even though these gender stereotypes are harmful, counter productive, and a disservice to what children will need in the future it is a real battle and requires constant vigilence by the parents. Most do not have the time, energy or motivation to develop the type of structured child rearing environment that children need to deal with the deluge of misinformation that business and the media flood us with. My daughter and husband are doing their very best but it is very hard to control.

[Rogina B]

The only defense is to raise her to have confidence in herself. My twelve and a half year old daughter has been out and about with me since she was five. She has great confidence and is not bothered by what other kids think. I encourage parents to never "gender anything"...it only leads to trouble later.

[JocelynRenee]

We told our children early (sons ages 5 and 11 and daughter age 6). We explained to them that some people may not understand at that it may affect their relationships with their friends. We also let them know that they were free to make up their own minds about the subject and they could decide whether they wanted to share the news with others.

They were all immediately accepting. Jocelyn was a normal part of their childhood and a part of many of their friend's lives. In fact, over the years I received many gifts of feminine jewelery, heels, tops, etc. from my children's friends.

Was it all roses? No. But today all of my adult children say that experience and the way we allowed them to own it for themselves was one of the most valuable life lessons they ever received.

So, as to how you should handle your situation? I have no idea. We're all unique and lord knows these kids don't come with a manual. That disclaimer aside, personally I always vote on the side of truth.

[bimini1]

Devida, yup 4 years old is about the time they 'catch' it. We call it "the syndrome" and have really tried to steer our daughter clear of it. Folks will tell us she's a girl, it's no problem, let her be princessy. Her cousin is totally immersed in it. Her aunt gave her a princess gift a few weeks ago that consisted of the book, Beauty And The Beast. I made the misstep of attempting to present it as a bed time story last night. Good Lord is all I'll say on it. Although the princess character did stand up to the potential suitor who was scared reading would cause women to begin to actually think.
We want no part of it, good for those that do but not us.

My wife is very open minded. But did admit she would be highly offended if our daughter reached teenage and wanted to go all "butch".

[Tina G]

I think you handled it well, nothing wrong with how you dealt with it.

Tina

[im-sparkles]

My 3yr old asked mommy why daddy looks like a girl. another time he told me my nails looked pretty.

[Eryn]

To my daughter's dismay my 4 year old grand daughter has contracted the Disney Princess disease....

The fantasy world of a 4-year-old has little to do with their eventual fate. If it did, the world would be filled with princesses, mermaids, cowboys, ballerinas, firemen, and astronauts. And Ninja Turtles.

The marketing people have figured out how to make money from this but that doesn't mean that children are being harmed. They have a long time to be stuck being adults, let them have a little fun first.

[Andy66]

I think most kids go through this phase. Maybe it has to do with their realizing that there are differences between girls and boys, and trying to understand it. My boys went through it around ages 5 to 7. I got pretty tired of hearing about what I could and could not do as a female bodied person. For my older boy, all of that stopped abruptly the day I came home from my (then) new job at a train repair company, carrying a hard hat. He was quite impressed. Lol. My younger son just grew out of it gradually.

[noeleena]

Hi,

A little different here this is about grandkids , Jos and i brought up one of ours because of family issues going on so i would pick Dejarn up on a friday or Saturday and ether Jos and i ,
or I would take Dejarn camping and meet many of my and of cause her friends , weekends and holidays ,

at the time she was about 3 so she know a lot about us and as she got a bit older she was brought up with all of my ill use ( changes going on ) so that included clothes makeup hair and or wigs so she know that i was body wise changing in many aspects ,

Of cause this means she was well used to being with me and traveling around and catching up with all the other Family members and would tell them about myself plus one grand child -boy would wont me to put lippy on for him and Dejarns brother,s 3 of well one wonted his toe,s painted so Kaykyn did that and finger nails black as , and had all his hair cut off just like myself ,

so Dejarns sister oh dear no way yet was quite happy for all of us to have a little perfume on,

Kaylyn our daughter , thier Mom
Dejarn 12y 9 m. 3 brothers and one sister age down to 10 m . the other kids and theres 11 all to gether are pretty good , top age 18, all so different

,Bring them up and show all ,no surprise,s later, and a bit of help alone the way ,

...noeleena...

[Pink Susan]

Its sad actually

Girls can do everything they want , wear what they want , act how they want

But Men can't

[sometimes_miss]

I think you've handled it well. OTOH,

My daughter and her husband (he is a professor, she is a lawyer) know very well that women will, by the time their daughter is an adult, be dominant in the workplace and in most other areas .
This is a common assumption based on increasing numbers of women in the workplace, and more women in higher education than men too. Unfortunately this does not necessarily correspond to who will 'dominate' the workplace. Basically, they entirely forget that men often work longer hours and are more ruthless in their business decisions to get ahead, only two of many traits necessary for success in the cut throat business world. There is a huge percentage of women out there who believe that promotions are simply based on taking turns. Consider that for decades, women asked 'when does a woman GET TO BE president of General Motors?' Now that we have one, it's quite apparent that she isn't exactly the comforting motherly influence that everyone expected (see how she handled the fiasco of hiding the ignition switch problem). Women who enter the working world essentially wind up acquiring the ruthless tactics that men have known we must forever in order to get ahead, and a lot of them refuse to do it. The concept of taking turns does not exist when it comes to getting ahead in the business world, promotions are virtually always based on who will be most likely to affect the bottom line positively.

[cdrachael]

I have two daughters and both have seen nail polish on my toes. MY older girl who is 8 says to her mum only girls wear nail polish. To her mum's credit and she says it doesn't matter who wears nail polish why can't men wear nail polish. Subject hasn't been bought up since. 8 year old also seen me dressed. Can't remember what her mum said but again subject hasn't come up again. amazing how kids adapt and accept.

[devida]

I think you've handled it well. OTOH,

Women who enter the working world essentially wind up acquiring the ruthless tactics that men have known we must forever in order to get ahead, and a lot of them refuse to do it.

Actually I don't mean that women will be dominating in the workplace just that with more women getting higher education than men and more willing to retrain in industries that are likely to be important in the future they will be dominant in terms of numbers. I fully expect male privilege to be around for a long time since it is a vested interest and those take time to change. What I am saying is that if women don't want to end up as the worker sex, continually low paid and excluded from important positions they need to be socialized in a way that does not encourage submission. There are many ways to negotiate one's journey through life. The stereotyped pathways where gender prohibits freedom of action are just that, ways to reduce freedom and encourage exploitation. It isn't necessary for women to adopt the ruthless tactics of some men to achieve higher managerial and professional positions since ruthlessness is far from the only pathway to success but they certainly should reject the socialization that still makes them defer to men, just because they are men.

Sure I understand that little girls don't grow up to be princesses and I understand the value of play and imagination. I also think that just because play may have tremendous gender stereotyping does not mean it should be banned. My son in law is trying to be balanced about this, allowing gendered play but also providing opportunities for play that emphasize strength, confidence and curiosity. He takes my grand daughter to one of LA's many great museums at least once a week and reads to her stories with many different role models. His concern, like my daughter's, mine and my wife's, has to do with the way that the gendered messages of contemporary culture limit and rigidify. Curiosity, self confidence and inner strength are not the qualities that most of the toy making corporations and the children's media institutions are particularly interested in encouraging. Why would they? Too much of consumer capitalism thrives on passive, ignorant, and fearful consumers. I disagree that the best way to make money is from a cowed, scared and uniformed populace. But then I would since my career is based on making and selling jewelry to people that makes them feel strong, lucky, self-confident and connected with something greater than themselves. And I am not alone in this type of enterprise. To a great extent the tech industry shares this belief. Now if only that industry would commit to a serious outreach to female computer programmers we would, maybe, hopefully, get some games that didn't only involve killing everything in sight.

[mariehart]

I have two boys and needless to say this is an issue but to my mind not as big an issue as people seem to think. One is seven the other five. The eldest says things at time which proves to me that sexism is almost inherent. Girls can't do this or that. Completing ignoring the fact the my wife is a scientist and the main bread winner or the fact that his closest female cousin is a tomboy (her own term) and plays sports and the rest while having zero interest in frilly stuff or dresses or anything too girly. She was totally immune to the pink disneyfication plot! He loves soldiers, bossing people around playing sports, hates shopping with a vengeance etc. He's a bit of a type A male.

Meanwhile my youngest loves art and clothes and going shopping. He's no interest in sports or any of the more traditionally masculine pursuits. He loves to pick out jewellery for my wife to wear and suggest clothes for her. But he is very clear in his mind that he is not girly.

Like Father like son! We joke to ourselves that he may well turn out gay but I point out that this is far from certain and that not all men are into macho pursuits. Only time will tell on that one.

There is one interesting attitude they show. My wife is the main breadwinner and I am mostly the stay at home parent. There's almost an inherent disdain for the person who minds them. Yesterday they wanted smoothies, so I gave in and bought some for them. Going home in the car they agreed not to tell Mammy about the smoothies. The five year old said: 'She'll be furious'. While I laughed and made sure I told my wife when she came home so she could pretend to 'furious'. It did tell me who they think the top dog in the house is. But they were prepared to cover up for me!:heehee: Which is good. But it puts me in my place.

Recently I was listening to a radio programme discussing this very subject. Which ended up irritating me in a number of ways. The guest was a journalist who was concerned about gender stereotyping in particular she brought up the girly pink and blue boy marketing strategy of the likes of Disney and other. The whole princess thing. She felt like many do that this could affect how girls perceive themselves and how it might limit their life choices. The trouble her children were boys and among other things she allowed her six year son to dress as a princess around the house. On the face of it, that might be a good thing. Perhaps he is a CD and perhaps more. But to me she seemed to encourage the practice as a way of compensating for the fact that she didn't have girls. Now as we know girls can be tomboys but it doesn't work the other way around either as children or adults. I wondered how she'd react if her husband crossdressed?
It could have negative consequences for him later as far too many of us know all too well.

But I always say the best rebuttal to gender stereotyping is staring us all in the face. Crossdressing and Transgenderism! All of us here have been brought up with maximum gender stereotyping. Men were men, women were women and never the twain shall meet. But we rejected it completely and dress and act like the opposite sex. I would love to dress and act like a Disney princess! (Well sometimes).

Whether you be MtF of FtM we are all rejecting everything we've been expected to do over the years!

So much for gender stereotyping. If it worked none of us would ever feel the need to dress or act like the opposite sex.

The best thing we can do for our kids is to avoid giving them prejudices and not mess with their heads too much by passing on our pyschoses. I won't encourage my boys to CD, but if they do well naturally I won't make an issue of it.
That's all we can do.

[giuseppina]

... She has a 5 year old girl cousin and that is alot of what she talks about when they are together, what boys don't do. ...

Bingo!! Chances are that is where DD heard about boys not wearing lip gloss and nail polish. Her cousin seems to need some education as well.

I wouldn't be surprised if one or both of them put some on a boy to get his attention in a few years. :devil:

[Beverley Sims]

I think enough said and the minimal of explanations is all that is needed to imprint young children.