New jobs and identity

[mechamoose]

I have been interviewing for a new job these last few weeks. With 25+ years in my field, I'm up for senior/management positions.

Out comes the business suit, white shirt & tie. Haircut. Skip the earrings and nail polish. Be 'presentable' and 'professional'.

It is like all the freedom I have being myself is stolen from me because 'business culture' hasn't caught up with 'social culture'.

I wish it didn't matter what you looked like more than what you *know*. People make so many judgments in those first 10 seconds of interaction. Early in the process I was looked at oddly because I had a *ponytail*. Sure, I was in a crisp wool suit, starched shirt and a power tie... but the hair made them question my 'professionalism'.

For you geeks out there, I have been running an IT infrastructure with 200 servers in VMs, 150 switches, *18* class C address spaces... and I'm getting judged on my 'effin HAIR.

*grumble*

No wonder more of us aren't out at work. :/

<3

- MM

[BLUE ORCHID]

So MM, Do you get a hair cut and go back, Or just suck it up and go back to work ??:daydreaming:

[GailNightshade]

Aren't archaic traditions great?
One day the business world will understand that a persons qualifications are in no way attached to their personal appearance.
Some are catching on but they are few and far between.

[mechamoose]

I got a haircut. I'm competing for six figure jobs,. I'm kind of limited, and I'm resenting that.

- MM

[KC Samanatha]

MM
Totally tough choices to be sure. You would like to hope and think that looks how hard you work matters more then your looks. You would really believe that in IT we are a bit more open minded.
Good luck, and managing that many servers is tough stuff. Love that VMWare!

[Andy66]

Its not fair. Best of luck just the same.

[mechamoose]

Its not fair. Best of luck just the same.

Andy, any time you reply to my posts I give out a little 'squee'.

Thanks for the kind words, dear!

<3

- MM

[Dianne S]

Yeah, it is ridiculous. I'm lucky enough to come from (and work in) the UNIX/Linux world so my pony tail fits right in. :)

[LelaK]

You could possibly wear a short haired wig over your long hair?

[Katey888]

MM,

The world isn't fair - but it is what it is... :)

And at least you understand the way it is - and for a long, long time, I've thought that the world is indisputably Faustian... :thinking: Everything is a trade-off, and virtually every trade-off is a pact with someone.. (if not old Louis Cyphre himself... :devil:)

Ask yourself: How much are you prepared to trade your freedoms for cash? :) And don't expect to be able to convert them from the inside - if they would have rejected you because of your appearance, they'll be unlikely to accept a radical change in that appearance however good your expertise... (not impossible... just unlikely...)

The age old quandary of everyone's ideals having a price... the only real question, is how much is yours..? ;)

Good luck anyways... :D

Katey x

[Donnagirl]

I've really annoyed my boss with my pierced ears.... Judgmental a$&¥holes!!!

[Andrea Payer]

i think that IT has changed. first being a playground for geeks it is now a battlefield for suit tie guys.
wouldn't it be cool if we could just format their brains?

[Marcelle]

Hey MM,

It is a sad state of affairs when what you look like overshadows your skills and experience. Hopefully they will look past the hair to the person below . . . good luck.


MM,

... if not old Louis Cyphre himself... :devil:

Nice Angel Heart reference . . . I thought I was the only person who saw the movie :) "Mephistopheles can be a mouthful in Manhattan, Johnny."

Hugs

Isha

[Andy66]

Andy, any time you reply to my posts I give out a little 'squee'.

Haha, Im happy to reply to your posts, and happy to squee you. :heehee:

[Krisi]

People have been judged by their appearance since the beginning of time. That's not going to change. Appearing right is part of many jobs from top to bottom. Would the current US president have been elected if he had a pony tail? Or dreds?

If you're up for a management position, how subordinates will view you is very important and your potential employer knows this.

You can not like it and you can grumble about it but you can't change it.

[mariehart]

Some of the more modern companies would look at you strangely if you did turn up in a suit and short hair. Not geeky enough.

[mechamoose]

MM
Totally tough choices to be sure. You would like to hope and think that looks how hard you work matters more then your looks. You would really believe that in IT we are a bit more open minded.

Thanks, hon!

The issue seems to be that the people you are interviewing with have NO idea who *YOU* are. Sure, they see your resume, but they unconsciously make a NUMBER of decisions based on what/how you look. They don't know how good of a motivator you are, how well you work with team-mates, how you think 'outside the box'. If you are a dude wearing eye-shadow, they make (internal) judgement calls. Those work against you.

I kind of have it easy. A visit to Lords & Ladies gets my hair in line. I skip doing mascara, nail polish and earrings. *POOF* I'm 'normal', 'presentable'.

You gurls who are trans-gendered rather than bi-gendered? (TM). I'm sad for you. You have it even harder than me.

And I'm *pissed*off* that I had to cut my hair and hide myself, just to be 'professional'.

Who knows? Once I'm in there I may be able to grow my hair and paint my nails.. but you don't get that chance until you have been hired.

*grumble*vent*swear*

- MM




Ask yourself: How much are you prepared to trade your freedoms for cash?

Being offered over 100K$ a year is hard to argue with.


And don't expect to be able to convert them from the inside - if they would have rejected you because of your appearance, they'll be unlikely to accept a radical change in that appearance however good your expertise...

I have been in several positions where I was able to let my Freak Flag Fly... AFTER I was hired. DURING that process it was viewed as a negative.

I MISS my pony-tail, dammit!

- MM

[Lynn Marie]

I've never made anything like "6 figures" in my life. Poor baby. You're representing a company that pays you really well. Grow up and get a haircut. You can play the "I'm going to look anyway I want" game when you get to retire early with all that "6 figure" income!

[Shelly Preston]

The saddest thing about this is that a GG would not be judged on her ponytail

They would judge her because she is a woman.

Yes its a shame that we all get judged on looks.

[mechamoose]

I've never made anything like "6 figures" in my life. Poor baby. You're representing a company that pays you really well. Grow up and get a haircut. You can play the "I'm going to look anyway I want" game when you get to retire early with all that "6 figure" income!

I'm sorry, I'm sensing some resentment from you.

I have been doing IT for a LONG time. It is a field where it is expected that you self-train on anything new, keep up certifications in your technologies on your own time, and be knowledgeable anything new that comes along. It is a knowledge-based profession. As others have commented, alternate (Unix) environments *welcome* the hippie look.

I'm an expert in my field. I prefer wearing skirts when I can. If I'm forced to wear pants, they are usually female ones. I like being pretty and my wife supports/likes that. Are you *YOU* in your profile pic? Do you go to work that way? If not, WHY not? I mean, if that is really you...

It isn't about "growing up". It is about identity and conforming to expectations.

- MM

[Beverley Sims]

It is a bit unfortunate, you do have to deny your true self to get on in the world.

Yes I know it is hypocritical.

[Edwina]

MM
Get a grip. Lynn Marie is a lovely person and I don't think she is resenting you. She is a retired lady who was just expressing an opinion.

[CynthiaD]

Look at it this way. People who judge you only on your appearance aren't very bright. You're smart. You can trick them into anything. Besides, they don't deserve to see your femme side.

I have these thoughts from time to time.

[devida]

Oh I totally agree with Cynthia, moose. Don't be resentful. As you say the interviewers are responding to unconscious cues and if you even allow yourself to feel resentful they might pick up on that. Recognize that you are almost certainly much more valuable than most of the people they interview and that the interview is an opportunity for them to get someone really great for their company. Use your glamor. Leave them star struck. Think of cutting your hair and looking straight as part of the spell that you weave to achieve what you want, don't think of it as something into which you were forced. You weren't. You chose to do it. Think of it as a butch makeover necessary to cast a spell of attraction over your interviewers.

[Ginger Jameson]

I've been a software engineer for 15 years and have just recently started dipping into management as a technical lead for a few projects. I would never even think about wearing women's pants to work, let alone a skirt. The risk of being outed is too great. I need the respect of my peers and superiors in order to do my job and work my way up the food chain. A guy in a dress, or even a guy with earrings, just doesn't garner as much respect in the business world. Sad? Maybe. A fact of life? Definitely.

I'm not just being paid to do my job, I'm being paid to not be a disruption to the workplace. Until society changes quite a bit more, a guy in women's clothes is going to be just as disruptive as a guy who plays his music over his speakers instead of his headphones. Neither of those guys is going to make it far in a staunchly corporate environment.

Does it suck? Sure. I don't even have pierced ears because if I did that I'd have to leave the earrings in until they healed. I get by on wearing panties to the office and dressing up on any days when I work from home.

Is it worth it? Hell, yes. My family is supported nicely. I have a good home that I love. On top of that, I can afford to grab a cute outfit if I see it in the store. I would never trade my salary for the ability to wear different clothes.

While I felt the same resentment you did in Lynn's post, that doesn't make her less right. We do what we do because it's worth it to us. Nobody is forcing us to wear men's clothing every day. We can choose to wear what we want and take the consequences as they come. It'll probably mean less money and prestige, but that's part of the choice we've made.

Our freedom hasn't been stolen. We've traded it for opportunities.

[mechamoose]

I wasn't intending to diss Lynn Marie. I'm sorry if you felt that I did.

I can understand that the world isn't generally ready for a guy like me to show up to the office in a swishy skirt and Jimmy Choos.

But if that is who I *AM*, if that is what I feel like, I'm kind of puzzled how my sisters here can just write that off as "necessary".

I like being honest. I like saying what I believe, even if it isn't popular. It rankles me to have to hide. I'm totally entitled to being upset at having to do so.

Why is my wish to wear pretty things disruptive to the workplace, when GGs in the office wear super short skirts and F-Me pumps and don't raise an eyebrow?

Why is it ok that these gender biases are accepted?

- MM

[Linda-x]

Would it be possible to start your own company? Then you could make the rules, and possibly even hire other T-girls. Think of how you could not only earn a greater living, but you would be would helping others do the same, all while expressing you inner desires.


It is a field where it is expected that you self-train on anything new, keep up certifications in your technologies on your own time, and be knowledgeable anything new that comes along

Modern automotive technicians do the same, but not as nice an eviroment, or income.

[Jorja]

While it is totally unfair, they are paying 6 figures. A girl has to do what a girl has to do to be able to pay the bills and put groceries in the frig. If that means cutting your hair and wearing a man's suit and tie, so be it. It beats the hell out of working the street corner.

[mechamoose]

Would it be possible to start your own company? Then you could make the rules, and possibly even hire other T-girls. Think of how you could not only earn a greater living, but you would be would helping others do the same, all while expressing you inner desires.


I'd love to. I ran my own business for 7 years, but I was squeezed out by bigger, more diverse firms.

I'd *LOVE* to have an office full of CD/TS folks... but would *clients* allow it?

( I'd hold 'nail night' sessions to show off my painting chops. Medical benefits would be absurdly wide. )

<3

- MM


While it is totally unfair, they are paying 6 figures. A girl has to do what a girl has to do to be able to pay the bills and put groceries in the frig. If that means cutting your hair and wearing a man's suit and tie, so be it. It beats the hell out of working the street corner.

I understand that 'sacrifice' mentality, but why should we *HAVE TO*?

I'm an expert in my field. If I can do my job and *kill* an A-line skirt at the same time, why is that bad?

- MM

[MissTee]

The world isn't quite ready for us, and certainly many work places follow suit. Seek your dressing fulfillment elsewhere and enjoy the many wardrobe dimensions making the big bucks affords you. This is the path many take.

[Ginger Jameson]

MM, it's not about good or bad. It's about how the world works. You can go out dressed and try to change it or you can be complicit in it by choosing to "go along to get along."

I'm selfish, I chose the paycheck. ;-)

[Jason+]

I understand that 'sacrifice' mentality, but why should we *HAVE TO*?

I'm an expert in my field. If I can do my job and *kill* an A-line skirt at the same time, why is that bad?

- MM

Because as a Facilities Manger who for 4 of 4 years with my company has provided greater than 6 9's uptime with 2 at 100% after having suffered through the required yearly training on diversity and tolerance pointed out that according to the training not only could I wear a skirt or dress to work, they could not only not tease me for it, they could not take adverse actions because of it. This was acknowledged by a General Manager with the statement "That's probably true, but please don't."

I'm pretty good at what I do too, and I want to be allowed to continue doing what I do (and being paid for such.) I have to balance a need for authenticity with the continued ability to pay multiple car notes on time and put food in the freezer.

[Carolina]

I agree that it sucks. I have a management job that involves strategic discussions with the top management of clients that tend to be Fortune 500 companies. It is inconceivable to even think about ponytails or pierced ears.

The business world is not ready for it. In my view when you have a client-facing job that is part of the revenue line of your company there is no chance to be able to be you. Unfortunately you need to represent your company and that leaves no space for being who you really are. It's not you, it is the company's image that you need to show to your clients to, in turn, bring new revenues

Many times I dream of backoffice jobs where I would not need to see a client. There is where I would argue that a company shouldn't care how I would dress. I like the idea of starting with women's pants and light colored nail polished. But my goal would be to go with my swishy skirts or dresses to work. This is my fantasy. One can only dream...

[Teresa]

MM, You need the money, they have you by the ***** !!
Seriously I did my photography for thirty years which I wouldn't have done if I didn't present myself in decent suit, clean shoes and tidy hair, It got me my business and generated new through presentation ! Back to Isha and the uniform thing again !!

Look at this way you can give Madame Moose a whole new look ! You may not regret it so much after all !!

Just be careful who you go hugging you might find your new boss wearing a bra underneath his fine cut suit !!!

[Andy66]

Moose, Im not going to tell you what to do, but I have to say I admire your idealism.

[Kate Simmons]

We need to do what we need to do. I'm just glad I don't have to deal with it any more. ;):)