Transsexuality, is it in the genitals?

[Sejd]

Here is an interesting article I stumbled upon. Thought it would be of interest to some of you

There's a certain amount of run-of-the-mill tact and respect for privacy that starts to vanish when someone comes out as trans*. I'm consistently surprised by the kinds of questions people ask me about my partner, and by the things they say to her or us. One of my favorites is when people tell her how lucky she is that she doesn't have to deal with periods or cramping. I always think, "Yeah, she's really jazzed that she doesn't get to experience fertility and won't ever have the ability to carry a child. How lucky!" I wonder if cisgender women who have had hysterectomies experience the same misguided conversation about their "luck."

A very common experience trans* people have is that conversation can tend to veer rather quickly to their genitalia. While I can certainly understand the curiosity, can we all just agree that conversations about one's genitals are conversations best left under the "personal/private" umbrella? Transitioning doesn't somehow lift that social contract.

Living in the Midwest, I am well schooled in the rose-colored-glasses style of communication that occurs here. You might hear things like, "Oh, that's really different," when someone means, "That is hideous," or, "He's so spirited," when someone means, "Your child is a complete terror." Given that, it's no surprise that I've been asked about my partner's genitals dozens of times and have yet to hear anyone actually use the words "penis" or "vagina." Instead, I hear the same question time and time again: "So... Is she going to do the full transition?" The last three words of that are always emphasized in a wink-wink-nudge-nudge way. Sometimes I address the question head-on; other times I toy with people and pretend I'm unsure what they mean so I can watch them squirm awkwardly. Either way, it always leads to questions about surgery.

Let me be very clear about something: Surgery is absolutely not a requirement for or condition of trans*ness. For some people gender-confirmation surgery is a personal necessity, a life-or-death need. For others it's not. For some the medical risks aren't worth it. For some it's a financial impossibility. And, believe it or not, some trans* people simply don't want any kind of surgery. Each person is different.
When people ask whether she's going to do "the full transition," I most often reply now by saying that she already has. The important thing to remember is that there isn't some kind of finish line. There's not a day in the future when my partner will finally and completely be a woman. She is a woman now. Today. She is not a halfling. She is not transitioning: She has transitioned. Focusing further on the specifics of her genitals is just kind of creepy. Genitals do not make a person. While surgeries can help some people feel more comfortable in their skin, those people were already wholly the gender by which they identified before surgical intervention. Some women have penises. Some men have vaginas. That's that.
With that said, I do understand that it's a topic that comes to mind with immediacy when someone comes out; the notion of transition is very foreign to a lot of people, and focusing on some of the pieces that seem the most curious is one of the ways people begin to wrap their heads around everything. It's an understandable response; however, it can lead to a kind of inappropriate fixation on the "weird" factor, which turns a genuine interest about transition into more of a morbid curiosity. No one wants to be the object of morbid curiosity.

As I mentioned, I've been asked dozens of times about my partner's genitals. How often have you had to answer questions about your partner's crotch? If you and your partner are both cisgender, I'd imagine the answer to that question is "not often." I urge you to hold back the desire to interrogate trans* people or their loved ones about their junk. Not only is the subject private in general, but it can also be a rather distressing topic to someone who experiences gender dysphoria. Above that, it's a matter that's largely irrelevant to one's transition as it relates to people in their lives.
What trans* people have done, might do, or will do in terms of surgery is solely their own business. What's between their legs has no bearing on how they interact with co-workers, family members or friends, so your interest in their transition might best be directed to other areas of it.

If nothing else, be prepared for my response to these questions to be, "Why don't you tell me in great detail about your spouse's genitals first?"

[noeleena]

Hi,

Try being intersexed and surgerys are quite different in many aspects i v never had issues and iv made it known that people should ask me what ever ? s they have and iv taken meetings and asked those there to ask what ever they would like to with out feeling embarrissed, and TV NZ was just so neat as well .

i have had others say to me they feel embarrissed in asking I say dont ever feel that around me im an open book so just ask . for myself to keep my book closed is a no no, i wont people to ask and find out why are ...you ...in this case my self how come your different ,

When your in the public eye and as a PR person your seen all the time and that includes being a member of Brass Bands and the like it does open many doors and it sure has for my self, im so up for it and i enjoy those times with people and those children who have inqiring minds hey to me its so neat .

...noeleena...

[Kathryn Martin]

This is an interesting post. I am aware that "the question" is asked often indiscriminately by random people who otherwise would never ask such a question. I believe that such a question is is an incredible invasion of privacy. So why is it asked then? What doubt in the mind of the questioner must exist to compel them to ask such a question which in any circumstance is inappropriate. What question of credibility is addressed in the mind of the questioner that would be answered?

I have to admit that I have never been asked this question and I have wondered why that is.

[I Am Paula]

Good post. I may well use your last sentence next time the subject comes up.
I just want to add one thing. Any male, talking about a trans persons genitals, will make a chopping, or slicing motion in front of their crotches. Just to add drama or realism to the conversation.

Katheryn- Nobody talks about my gender anymore, but when I had just came out to my friends, they all asked the genital questions. I think the subject just fizzles away.

[Angela Campbell]

Maybe because the people in the cis world equate gender to the genitals.

[LeaP]

... starting with birth.

The sexualization of transsexuality in the media doesn't help.

[I Am Paula]

A million years ago, while the English language was being created, some idiot called the difference between male and female 'SEX'. This same, or some other, idiot saw two people copulating and called that 'SEX'. Somehow, the two became forever linked. If he had seen the amorous couple and called it 'CHICKENING' we would not have all this confusion...until some equally dumbass saw his first child, looked between it's legs, and said 'It's a chicken!' Then, of course, we would have to start all over again.

[LeaP]

And here is a perfect media example. There are so many things wrong with this headline and opener, it's hard to list them all:

Model on sex change: 'I'm 100% myself now'
When Andreja Pejic announced that she had sex reassignment surgery, she surprised people who always thought she was a woman in the first place.

[Kathryn Martin]

Angela, I think that it is rather that people equate gender with biological sex.

Lea, the topic of sexualitzation of transsexuals is much more complex and very much a sociological, historical and societal question than anything else at least in Western Society. Now that would be a topic for a whole new thread and discussion. I guarantee you would have to analyze puritanism and it's effects on modern North American Society.

[SassySal]

Some women have penises. Some men have vaginas. That's that.


Really??? Says who?

[arbon]

A pre-op trans woman is not a woman? Or most trans men are not men? Is that what you want to say Sassy?

[Rachel Smith]

Few people know me know what I have where and it is none of their business. This is not about what equipment is where, hell it doesn't work anyway, but rather how I feel mentally now as compared to previously. This is about acceptance for what/who we are on the inside not about what is on the outside. Comments like Sal's are about as prejudiced as a person can be :Angry3:. Sals shoes don't fit on my feet but that is no reason I should be no less accepted then she or anyone else.

[Kathryn Martin]

Some women have penises. Some men have vaginas. That's that.

I missed this one - and keep telling yourself that. This is one of the reasons people keep asking this question. So that they may make their own judgement from the answer.

[noeleena]

Hi,

Sassy ,

Come into my world of intersexed people and then you will find out what it is about us that makes us different in so many ways , many of us are a mismatch of both male and female organs , our body shape size and bones ,

and how we look some of us have masculine facial features as i have , as to my photo, < some of us have very female looking features ,

Some of us have wombs some not then some both sets of sexual organs genitila

And it does not stop there, then see how we are hard wired , and Emotions ,

Is it any wonder we have surgerys and some of us quite a few , to at least give us a working body with out a lot of drama going on , some thing i now know would have saved myself and others a lot of anguish and heartache , and for myself just a few simple words at my birth ,= one would have done ...Intersexed ... matters not now its all done,


...noeleena...

[Pink Person]

No one gets sex with their cheeseburger, and yet we are obsessed with knowing the gender ID, sex ID, and sexuality of other people in all of our mundane interactions with them.

It should be observed that almost all of our relationships with other people do not involve sex, or proof of gender ID and sex ID.

I will admit that not knowing a person’s gender ID, sex ID, and sexuality interrupts my fantasies about them. How should I think about imaginary encounters with them under these circumstances? It’s a disturbing problem when I’m thinking about doing things that I will never do.

The reality of our lives with each other is so boring. Perhaps we need to stir our imaginations with exciting dramas just to make it tolerable.

As a footnote that should not affect your ability to order lunch or transact most of your other social business: sex, gender and sexuality are related to our genitalia but not in the same way for everyone.

You should know your relationship to your own body, but the subject doesn’t need to be common knowledge. Similarly, we should not assume that everyone else is like us, or that they should be, or that their differences need to be explained or justified to us.

However, If we are likely to engage in complex personal congress with someone else then we should share any relevant particulars that the situation demands.

[LeaP]

Nice utopia, Pink. I'd like to live there. Unfortunately, most people instinctively seek resonance, surety, and normalcy in the sense of predictability.

Most interactions don't involve sex, but social intercourse (couldn't resist) always involves gender and it is loaded with sexual implications.

I very much like your closing comments.

I'm undecided - maybe forever so - on the physicality question.

[Kathryn Martin]

Social relations are defined and regulated by paradigms which we have created resulting in certain expectation - they can change over time but usually quite slowly.

Sexual relations are defined and regulated by the biology of the persons seeking to engage in the relations. So if a heterosexual women engages a heterosexual man and the penis is lacking then that would impact the attraction. What is between your legs may not matter to you but it certainly does the person you seek to engage in sexual relations with. This where all of the Janet Mocks of the world and all the Laverne Coxs of the world and for that matter many here have it wrong. It is a natural question to ask if your partner has a transsexed medical history. 'cause with all due respect fellatio is not cunnilingus and vice versa. Do I need to go on?

[Rachel Smith]

From the OP as stated by Sejd
Given that, it's no surprise that I've been asked about my partner's genitals dozens of times and have yet to hear anyone actually use the words "penis" or "vagina." Instead, I hear the same question time and time again: "So... Is she going to do the full transition?"

Kathryn while I agree with you on most things I feel you have gotten this one wrong yet I still agree with you to some extent. The OP said nothing of a possible sexual relationship with the person making the inquiry. It was her partner not her they were asking about. While I agree it does need to be addressed before you get to the bedroom or wherever it is you are thinking of engaging in "relations." As stated in the OP it has no bearing nor is it a proper question to ask in that situation.

[Badtranny]

Well whaddya know, ... my favorite topic. (one of them anyway)

Most here know that I am 'with penis' and I will continue to be. I would love to say it's a decision made to irritate the militant posties but alas, getting the vaj installed is just not something I'm driven to do. Some have told me that I will want it someday, but I've always heard the same thing about wanting kids, and I still don't want them either at my advanced age of 46.

Regarding my vestigial penis, nobody 'out there' knows. Even people who watched me transition (at my old job) don't even know for sure anymore. New people don't even know I'm not natal. I share a bathroom at my current job with 13 other women and my privates (is that why they call them privates?) have never been a topic of conversation. My very best friend, who I actually used to date for a minute before I transitioned doesn't even talk about it. I may mention it when we're at some festival or concert and we have to use one of those little poo huts and I brag about not having to sit to pee. Otherwise it's like being left handed or something innocuous like that with me and her. ...and she knows the truth. It simply isn't an issue in my life.

When is it an issue? Who shows the most persistent interest in TS genitals? Only Post-Ops.

[Frances]

I don't. Not about your's nor anyone else's.

[Kathryn Martin]

Neither do I, if it wasn't for that pernicious insistence that we're all the same.....

[arbon]

Sometimes I don't really understand what your trying to say Kathryn.

Are you saying that my having a penis and identifying as a woman is harmful to you Kathryn?
Do you think I am not a woman because of what I still have? Do you think I should not identify as such?

I have not had "the surgery", you have. Fine, I don't claim to have a vagina or to know what its like to be post-op.

I am sure if I every have it, and it goes well, I will feel very good about it. It will mean a lot to me personally. But beyond that it does not mean much as my identity already is what it is, I am already living my life as I will keep living it as a woman. It wont magically bring and end to people identifying me as trans, transgender, transsexual and sometimes gendering me as a man. It wont reset my life to allow me to grow up as a girl - it wont give me all those experiences that I missed. It wont give me bigger boobs, a nicer looking face, a more feminine voice. It wont allow me to have a child.

Yet it is the only thing that should define us a man or a woman?

[Kathryn Martin]

It wont reset my life to allow me to grow up as a girl - it wont give me all those experiences that I missed. It wont give me bigger boobs, a nicer looking face, a more feminine voice. It wont allow me to have a child.

Yet it is the only thing that should define us a man or a woman?

If you were sitting in front of me there would be space for an amazing conversation about what you wrote above. This not the medium such nuanced and complex things can be spoken about. But let me say that I would have much to say to you about just those things. If you ever would like to contact me to have this conversation then message me.

Much of what I say is specific to the context. The generalizations that many of you draw from this are false because they distract from the context.

When you say to me that having a vagina "will mean a lot to me personally. But beyond that it does not mean much as my identity is already what it is..." then to me you are closing yourself off from one of the most fundamental questions of what it means to be a man or a woman. Many here do not wish to be a man or a woman but rather to achieve a recognition that there is a state in which individuals are not one or the other both from an emotional and intellectual point of view and from a biological point of view. My situation is quite different, and I have asserted as much for a long time here. You see I am not a woman because I say so or am living the life of, or a life as. But those things really don't belong here but very much into a conversation to which I alluded to.

In the context of this thread however, all I am saying is that it is quite a natural question to ask whether you have "fully" transitioned in specific contexts,because the context requires this kind of knowledge.

[Badtranny]

Nope.

Your attempts to soft peddle what I know to be your position are not going to be fruitful. We both know that you are absolutely married to the concept that without a vageen, I am limited to "something other". Your belief is that women like me are not 'real' women because we don't have the proper equipment. You have said as much in these very forums. You have gone on record as essentially reducing womanhood to the possession of a vagina, and I don't personally care because, well, I'm just independent like that, but you need to at least own your position on this so the other girls know who you are.

My position is simple, I am not a woman because of how I feel. I'm a woman because of how everyone else feels about me. I am who I am and have always been, the only difference now is the rest of the world acknowledges that.

I am a woman with a secret, and a very interesting past.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

hmmmmmmmmmmm

I was very ambivalent about my srs.. but i'm so delighted I went ahead with it...it did have an impact on me (powerful and positive) that I didn't anticipate and without any suggestion of who is what or who isn't I highly recommend the surgery to any transsexual that can do it.

So I can totally understand why a ts woman wouldn't want to do it(After ffs and a year of full time I became nervous about the health risk..i didn't want to suffer the pain....it was expensive and i had already spent so much $$, and I just didn't feel like I needed it!!! ...but I was on a roll and I chalked all that thinking up to surgery fatigue)
....and I can also understand where Kathryn is coming from because I've experienced it, and the surgery felt transcendent to me..

but its not magic surgery and it doesn't come with a certificate of authenticity....
dogma seems uncalled for and to me it really seems like a double dogma dingdong shootout

I don't think its correct to say that a person who has not had surgery to correct their genitals is somehow not transsexual...human nature is so complicated...so many things can go wrong and right in life
...and it will never be accepted by many transsexuals, but some of us really don't give a hoot about our genitals at all!!!!! I sure didn't...I just didn't care that much...

but I also think Melissa that your idea the world acknowledges your femaleness (which is EXACTLY how I viewed my own transition) to have an issue because when you consider how others would feel if you whipped out your dick....it would matter to a lot of people ..maybe you don't care but in the end I learned that I did...there was something about what you said about how the rest of the world acknowledging you and I totally feel you on that...
but for me it really helps to know that I can stand unclothed and feel acknowledged.. plus my gaffe chafed me so bad....

one more thing,
its also true that NO MATTER WHAT WE DO, the "rest of the world" doesn't always acknowledge us for what we are and that's just way it is for us in 2014, so dogma is utterly wasted here..
the whole discussion to me is about degrees and what each of us needs to do to live our best quality of life and not about checking the SRS box or somehow be left behind..

[Kathryn Martin]

Misty,

people read into my comments what they wish to read into them. I have not at all gone on record reducing womanhood to the possession of a vagina. That is both a gross overstatement and and even worse an oversimplification of my views in this regard. I think you would agree that any nuanced and differentiated conversation by way of forum board is at best a failure and at worst just a crude hacking out of positions.

The issues raised by Arbon in the quoted section are very complex issues. Our difference of viewpoints are also much more complex than a simple statement such as yours above. What you say above is not at all a simple position at all when you really begin to think about. Interesting though that other than rejection or in some cases snarky comments no one seems to want to engage on this point in a mature and meaningful way.

So I refuse to buy into this....

[arbon]

Kathryn, I asked pretty simple and straight forward questions. They were not that complex.

[Badtranny]

Kathryn, in the recent past you have typed the following words ..."women don't have penises".

You are either going to admit it or recant it, but the facts are the facts.

Now from a very basic Kindergarten Cop perspective, I suppose that's a valid position. After all aren't most women indeed born with vagoojies? People are born with all sorts of things that may or may not define them, but it is human nature to divide and conquer yes? We must catalog stuff because our feeble minds just can't comprehend too much complexity and disorder. We are compelled to organize so I don't begrudge that tendency, for it is beyond us to control.

I would argue however that the dividing principle is in the spirit rather than the pants. To be transsexual is to be perpetually misunderstood, until transition and then everything makes sense. One of my old alpha-male friends from work was just telling me the other day that he was never sure how to deal with me, but since I 'came out' (as he put it), it makes total sense. "you've always been just like a chick, but I couldn't see it because you looked like a dude". He said I was hard to argue with back then because "you argue like my wife". Then he said, "it's hard to remember you as anything else".

These are comments that I may never forget and he had no idea how deep they were. (he's a dude) Nobody has ever said anything about my crotch candy, again, it simply isn't an issue. Kait, you know I love you but those are some dubious examples. I don't have testicles so I don't need a gaff, and at my age, I don't think I'll ever need to be naked in front of anybody who isn't about to get lucky.

The bottom line is there are post-op TS women who will never be accepted as women, no matter what. Ever. The reasons are many and complicated, but frankly I prefer my lot.

[Michelle.M]

I believe that such a question is is an incredible invasion of privacy. So why is it asked then?

It is definitely a very personal question and in most cases inappropriate. The only person who’s ever asked me that was my brother, and it was merely to get an idea of how far down the path towards complete transition I had gone. For some people this is less an inappropriate question and more of a milepost of where one is on a journey towards wholeness.


The sexualization of transsexuality in the media doesn't help.

And that is why the vast majority of people ask the question.


Some women have penises. Some men have vaginas. That's that.
Really??? Says who?

You’re kidding, right? Sassy, have you read nothing about how trans people view their own gender identity and how genital configuration has little to do with that?


So if a heterosexual women engages a heterosexual man and the penis is lacking then that would impact the attraction. What is between your legs may not matter to you but it certainly does the person you seek to engage in sexual relations with. This where all of the Janet Mocks of the world and all the Laverne Coxs of the world and for that matter many here have it wrong.

Oh, crikey, not this nonsense again!


Do I need to go on?

Please don’t!


When is it an issue? Who shows the most persistent interest in TS genitals? Only Post-Ops.

I fear you may be right. It does often seem to be true, at least as it pertains to this site.


When you say to me that having a vagina "will mean a lot to me personally. But beyond that it does not mean much as my identity is already what it is..." then to me you are closing yourself off from one of the most fundamental questions of what it means to be a man or a woman.

Surely you are not suggesting that the essence of a woman is her vagina, and thus lacking one she is less than / other than a woman?


We both know that you are absolutely married to the concept that without a vageen, I am limited to "something other". Your belief is that women like me are not 'real' women because we don't have the proper equipment. You have said as much in these very forums.

Asked and answered, but let’s be honest - we all saw that coming. And here I thought that gender essentialists were all religious conservative transphobes or misguided disciples of Ray Blanchard.

Thanks for saying it clearly, Misty!


I have not at all gone on record reducing womanhood to the possession of a vagina.

Um, yeah, you pretty much have.


I was very ambivalent about my srs.. but i'm so delighted I went ahead with it...it did have an impact on me (powerful and positive) that I didn't anticipate

Oh, same here! But for me it wasn’t so much ambivalence as it was acquiring a physical completeness that I wanted but (as Misty has discussed) didn’t necessarily need to be properly gendered and regarded by society as female. In fact, as good as SRS was / is, I wouldn’t even put it in the Top 5 of the most beneficial things I have done for my transition.

It did make my underwear fit much better, though!

[janetcgtv]

It's all in the mind not the genitals.
While we are in the womb 2 things happen since we are created gender neutral. an egg is programmed to go one way or another. It does NOT know what the father's chromosomes are. The center that says we are feminine and/or masculine went thru a hormone bath decided permanently who we are and the sex center who we will love went thru the same thing. There are hermaphrodites who had the outer body of a man but the mind of a woman. Also vice versa.
Males who have been circumcised but the penis was destroyed during the operation were raised as girls. However their mind told them something is very wrong.

[Rianna Humble]

Since this has degenerated into an argument between those who say you cannot be a woman without Gender Confirmation Surgery and those who disagree, it is time for this thread to stop