Owning your man card

[Marcelle]

Hi all,

I figured I would let loose with another Isha musing. I'll try to keep it short . . . okay I'll try :D

Before I begin a little background to the title before anyone gets confused. I took an Isha day yesterday and had lunch with some friends, three GGs and one guy who knows about Isha but has never met her. I was running late when I got to the restaurant as I missed my one bus connection . . . for the record, running in a dress and sandals is not wise if you are not paying attention - the speed of running, prevailing winds and loose dress material - well let's just say a few people at the bus stop know more about the colour of my underwear than I wish they did :o. Anyway back on point . . . I got to the restaurant and it was a bit awkward as I normally hug my GG friends so when I got around the table to my guy friend we just kind of froze . . . so I held out my hand, he smiled (more relieved I didn't lay a big girly hug on him I think :)) and we shook hands. So lunch went fine and my GG friends had to get back to work but my guy friend stayed so we could chat a bit more. We went through the usual questions and then moved on to more standard conversations. During the conversation he laughingly said (this was not him being mean . . . just trying to be funny in his own way) "I guess you'll have to hand in your man card now". I just laughed and said . . . "Well I don't think I have it here in my purse but next time I'll be sure to bring it." :heehee:

After he had left, I went about the rest of my day but thought about that. As CDers . . . are we obligated to hand in our "man card" or should we take greater ownership of it?

Now I approach this from the perspective of a guy who is married but you can look it from any direction (single, in a serious relationship, married, fully accepting SO, DADT . . . pick your poison sort to speak). As a married dude, I prefer to believe we (CDers) need to "own" our man card as much as possible. Now I don't mean taking up chewing tobacco, monster truck driving or getting into bar fights (no insult meant to tobacco chewing, monster truck driving pugilists) . I am talking about being a good and decent man in your relationships and/or pursuit of your relationships. I read a lot of posts about "My wife knows what now?" and the advice is all good "take is slow . . . communicate . . . set boundaries . . . did I mention communicate?" :battingeyelashes: However the one thing that tends to get overlooked is . . . "Continue being a man, a dude, a bloke, a husband, a father, etc. etc." When I came out to my wife, one of her greatest fears was that "guy me" would disappear and she would be left with a GF who wants to paint nails, do her hair and have pillow fights (well okay . . . nothing wrong with a good pillow fight now and then :battingeyelashes:), but you get the picture. So I went to great lengths to show her that the man she married is still there for her in all the ways I was before. In essence I took ownership of my "man card". I dress because Isha is a part of my core identity and I wish to harmonize coexistence. My wife has fully accepted that as "boy me" still exists. Now I am not just talking about grabbing my tool belt and fixing a leaky pipe. While that is part of it, I am there for her to support her, care for her and that doesn't change even when I am dressed as Isha . . . I am still her husband and the man she married (her words not mine).

A lot of us engage in CDing for our own private and personal reasons. One person's fantasy can be another person's reality. However, IMHO loosing sight of the fact you are a man/husband/father even when dressed and trying to convince your SO that you are just one of the girls and let's go shopping can cause problems and fear for your SO. Yes, if she is into that (and I am sure there are lots of SOs who are) then all the better for you. However, if she isn't that is going to raise a lot of alarm bells - my husband, boyfriend, guy is being absorbed by the girl before me :eek: - which could potentially cause problems in your relationship.

Now before anyone says "Hey Isha what about those who wish to be women?" In that case then you are likely more leaning toward TS or are TS and as such, owning the man card is not applicable as you are trying to align your external self (male/female) with your internal gender (female/male).

So my take on this is that rather than handing in my "man card" I am going to have it laminated and put it right behind my driver's licence both in my wallet and my purse. :)

Hugs

Isha

[Jorja]

In case anyone needs one, I have a man card that I laminated and tossed into a drawer some 40 years ago. You are welcome to it as I have not needed it once in all these years.

[Emi_]

I have one of those special permits that lets me drive certain outfits. It takes a lot of extra study and the test is brutal, but it's worth the effort for the special stamp on my man card. Next year I'm going to try for my stiletto certification too!

[hope springs]

An interesting dilemma. Of course you keep the man card. Our cards just happen to have a few asteriks and an explanatory note on the reverse side.

My career is construction. Every day at lunch im treated to tales of what the best feed for a deer feeder is, the nuances of small block chevy engines, best places to ride your harley... you get the idea. But i feel comfortable in those discussions as well as fingernail painting techniques, skirt types and panty cut styles. Never thought about my man card, but now that you mention it, i will still be holding onto it

[Jonithan]

I'm keeping mine. It's too important to me. It identifies me. Who I am....

....mine just has Wo scrawled on it.

joni

P.S. Nice post as usual

[RADER]

I still have my "Man Card"; So I can drive a big dump truck, But I still
under dress and wear fem jeans. Getting in an out of a big truck in a skirt
is not what I care to do.
You are correct, I found that even with a Wife that was OK with my dressing,
I still had the "Job" of being the "MAN" she married, I enjoyed doing so, and
it worked well for many years. I bet she is looking down on me wondering
what I will wear next; Since I lost her fashion sense.
Rader

[Ricki Dove]

I am going to hang to my man card although I am really enjoying discovering my CD side. I just started getting to cross dressing less than two months ago. The more I do it the more I like it. I should have started a long time ago.

[Rachel_B]

I don't remember being issued a man card... even when I joined the military. I have never enjoyed watching or playing sports that much, video games is the sport I play. Right now my job is a cashier which you see more women then men, I never wanted to work in any of those "manly" jobs. Nonetheless, if I was given one; I would first have to find it and then I would probably get it laminated and put it where I would need it in case of emergencies.

[Kris Avery]

Sounds like a card issued to those who are insecure men.
I would have asked to see his... ha ha ha :D

[Martha G]

Isha,

I always enjoy reading your musings! Just love 'em.

I'm a guy who enjoys wearing female attire at times. Nothing else.

Don't need a man card!

However, like method actors, I like to become the person I am dressed as. So like to perfect my dress, my mannerisms and voice.

[Teresa]

Yes Isha my man card will never get handed in ! On the reverse it says this card belongs to my husband, my dad and my grandpa and strangely it has my name on it and no reference to Teresa ! That one is tucked well out of sight, but I'm not saying where and gets used for special occasions !!
I love your stories of being out thanks for sharing them again !

[natalie edwards]

Hi Isha,
Been wanting to say this for awhile. Whenever I read any of your threads I hear Carrie Bradshaw's voice! You know Sarah Jessica Parker, sex in the city. Your insight and writing style is great! So enlightening and entertaining.
BTW, i wholeheartedly agree about the man card!

[ReineD]

However, IMHO loosing sight of the fact you are a man/husband/father even when dressed and trying to convince your SO that you are just one of the girls and let's go shopping can cause problems and fear for your SO. Yes, if she is into that (and I am sure there are lots of SOs who are) then all the better for you. However, if she isn't that is going to raise a lot of alarm bells - my husband, boyfriend, guy is being absorbed by the girl before me :eek: - which could potentially cause problems in your relationship.

Beautifully said, Isha! It's a point that should be made more often if someone is a crossdresser.



Now before anyone says "Hey Isha what about those who wish to be women?" In that case then you are likely more leaning toward TS or are TS and as such, owning the man card is not applicable as you are trying to align your external self (male/female) with your internal gender (female/male).


Exactly. There's a distinct difference between the two (CD and TS or even "wish to be TS") for the vast majority of the members here (although some individuals do straddle the line like my SO). But some transitioning or transitioned transsexuals like to come on this side of the forum and say outright they're not interested in having a man card, which is certainly true for them. Trouble is, they don't identify themselves as TS, there's no "TS" ID under their forum name (like I have "GG" under mine), therefore it is confusing for both the newer CDers and GGs who don't yet know the forum members. They wonder if only some CDers feel the way you do about being a man, or 50%, or most of them, etc. This makes it difficult to develop a general sense of who makes up this community, it can make it difficult for a newer CD who comes here looking for self-definitions, and it blurs the lines.

Maybe the transsexuals who do this like to blur the lines, maybe they would have everyone believe there is no difference between crossdressers and TSs although I cannot understand why they would want this, other than perhaps their own inability to understand the differences between the two. Or maybe they like to prove to CDers and others reading the CD threads like GGs that they are women, although I fail to understand why they might feel this necessary. It just feels as an attempt to come off as being somehow superior although I'm sure this is not the intent.

[Amy Fakley]

I never have fit in, and at this point, I've just accepted that I damn well never will.

The whole idea ... that others could revoke my permission to be myself. Well, if there was a sanctioning authority for "manliness", I'd be happy to picket out front and burn my freakin' "man-card" at this point in my life! The whole mindset irks me to be completely honest.

I can be a good father without also needing to shoot guns and "blow sh*t up".
I can be a loving, caring husband without needing to spend every Sunday afternoon shouting at football on the teevee, and guzzling beer.
I can change the brake pads on my pickup truck and still get cleaned up and go shopping with my wife afterwards.
While we're out shopping I can buy things at Home Depot and Sephora, if want to.

If that crosses off items from someone's "list of manliness", well you know. oooookkkkaaaaay.
I am a crossdressing hippie music nerd ... is that really such a surprise?

It's just another brain-dead stereotype, y'know?
Why bother expending any energy trying to live up to bogus expectations in the first place?

Not that you shouldn't still be there for your wife in all the ways she needs you to be. I certainly am, and have found that I can be even better at that, by not worrying so much about how I come off to others, and just be myself.

My "man-card" always felt more like a learner's permit anyhow, ROFL.
great post, Isha :-)

[GretchenJ]

Hello my dear friend up North!

Another great post, for me on a personal level your greatest post of all !



As a married dude, I prefer to believe we (CDers) need to "own" our man card as much as possible.

When I came out to my wife, one of her greatest fears was that "guy me" would disappear and she would be left with a GF who wants to paint nails, do her hair and have pillow fights

So I went to great lengths to show her that the man she married is still there for her in all the ways I was before. In essence I took ownership of my "man card". I dress because Isha is a part of my core identity and I wish to harmonize coexistence.


Boy, where to begin. You are so right on this it is truly scary. This is the number one reason that I think that my dressing is a secret to only me and you all. Even in a perfect scenario, if my wife was truly on board with everything, I still would not dress in her presence because TO ME, and maybe not even to her, my man card would be somewhat invalidated.

So as part of the deal , of my secret, is if and when I get the opportunity to venture out as Gretchen, that I enjoy myself to the fullest, while keeping my fidelity (which I take very seriously). In return, when I arrive home, and the clothes and the wigs goes away, I am fully committed and focused at the job at hand, of being the best husband and father I can possibly be.

There are two different sides to me which are distinct and very separate ( physically, but not so much internally) but keeping them separate helps me in my acceptance of it. Of course , everyone's experience here are totally different than mine, but that is just an insight to my psyche

Hugs
Gretch

[ReineD]

I can be a good father without also needing to shoot guns and "blow sh*t up".
I can be a loving, caring husband without needing to spend every Sunday afternoon shouting at football on the teevee, and guzzling beer.
I can change the brake pads on my pickup truck and still get cleaned up and go shopping with my wife afterwards.
While we're out shopping I can buy things at Home Depot and Sephora, if want to.

If that crosses off items from someone's "list of manliness", ...

The men that I know do fit your description, save for buying makeup at Sephora. lol. I don't really know any men who spend their time shooting things up, watching sports and drinking beer, who can only talk about cars, etc. I think this describes a very narrow stereotype that only exists on television and in movies (Duck Dynasty?).

But I do know some men who aren't happy in their marriages and who use all manner of excuses to not be there, whether this is keeping themselves busy on weekends with activities that don't include their wives, or watching a lot of TV, or working a lot at the office. And I know some unhappy women who spend as little time as possible with their husbands. I guess this sort of thing goes both ways.

[Anna H]

Trouble is, they don't identify themselves as TS, there's no "TS" ID under their forum name (like I have "GG" under mine), therefore it is confusing for both the newer CDers and GGs who don't yet know the forum members.

I Love and Adore this place, but the one thing that is missing is a place
for a bit more detailed info on the profile.

I generally hate the concept of a profile, personally, and avoid them any
other place on the internet. But this a community that does truly matter
to me. So I like to know about others and if they're interested, I like
for them to see what we may have in common.



And....I'm very much like Amy. :)

If i were never viewed as a guy again it'd be fine with me. But that doesn't mean
I think I'm a girl. IMO...that's not possible for me. I just never did really relate
to guys very much. Sure, I can play the part, but that's because it was drilled into
me without my realizing what was happening.

Nothing against macho-men, but i just don't fit in naturally with them. I'm missing
something that "normal" guys have, I guess.

This dressing isn't a thing I can put aside easily. I couldn't explain it, but if the
difference it makes can be reasonably called "feeling right", then it's natural to
want to "feel right" always? ...or at least as often as is possible.

Nice topic, Isha! There's lots to think about. I could go on for hours...lol!

:)

[grace7777]

I am finding that I have no use for a man card anymore.

[ArleneRaquel]

Man card, what are they ?

[SO1Adam12]

Although I don't foresee it happening, I'm pretty certain it would be the end of our relationship. I like him to open doors for me, hold my chair, help me with my coat, take my arm, lead me through a crowd, makes sure he is on the outter side of the side walk, he even pulls my seatbelt for me when we get into the car, all of those old fashioned guy things that seem to be slipping away. It's one of my favorite things when we are out is when I feel like he is taking care of me.

[Melissa18]

Hi Isha,
Another thought provoking thread, thank you.
As you lovelly ladies are the only people that I'm out too, my man card is used as my shield against discovery of my true self. At this stage of my life I just wish I could get a man card that has a couple of imperfections so that Adelaide could be truer to herself!

Hugs Adelaide,

[Holly]

I exchanged my "man card" a number of years ago for a person card. It affords me the freedom to relate to my wife free of constraints placed upon us by gender expectations. I can fix her car and her hair with equal adeptness. She can do yard work and my nails with equal efficiency. To SO1Adam12 I understand your point and it is one that should be pondered by any couple in a committed relationship. Doing things for our partners because they like them is something we should all be doing. But I will let you in on a little secret... sometimes my wife holds a door for me and you know what? I like it too. Being freed from traditionally imposed gender roles should give us the ability to find MORE ways to please one another, not fewer. Carry on.

[Donnagirl]

Hi Isha,

You're timing is incredible... This dovetails into conversations I've had with the wife and a friend on the forum over the past few days which could pretty much be summed up as ongoing validation of your man card.

Donna has had the opportunities to develop quite incredibly over the past few months, accelerating rapidly over the last few weeks. Not only were the fears overcome, but probably the last few 'nevers' either dismissed or sorely tested. Those nevers you promise your self, never join the forum, never post a picture, never wear a wig and make up, never go out in public... Well another biggie was left in my dust this weekend.

With the wife's (partial) blessing, the boys saw me dressed this weekend, both Friday and Saturday evening. After an initial commentary, they really don't seem to care. They even got to see and chat with my friend over FaceTime who was also dressed. This now removes the last inhibitor at home and, at very least, opens up my house for me to dress when and how I please... This caused me some concerns and provoked equal concern from the wife. We are back to the 'were will this all end?' Am I about to hand in my man card? Will I dress everyday after work? Will I dress at work? Do I need male attire any more? Do I need male bits anymore??? Ok so a few long bows were drawn, but I certainly understand her fears... Too many times the status quo turns out to have been a temporary holding pattern only.

Now I'm as positive as can be that I've reached a manageable plateau and I don't foresee any further escalation, but am I saying never? Is all this going to be another 'never' left by the wayside? How tenuous is my grip on my man card? If I can not convince myself, or if at lease I harbour a nagging doubt that this is as far as I go, how can I convince anyone else?

Going to be an interesting next few months. There are plans for several parties and trips out where Donna will be attending, including a work party... I could even be a bridesmaid at a colleagues wedding!!!! OMG!!!

Donna ����������

[SO1Adam12]

Holly, I get that...but I also know that for me, there are circumstances when I am happy to take care of him, but I'm not (yet) in a place where I am ready for a public outing. I don't think he is either. He has actually (gently) admonished me for not letting him open a door for me so my guess is, in this particular situation, we are on the same page.

[Eringirl]

Great post Isha! While I have given this notion a great deal of thought over the years, I have not taken the opportunity to articulate my musings. So here goes.

I still have my man card, and always will. If nothing else, I owe that to my wife as a husband and to our children as a father. That is what the need, and as a husband and father, that is my responsibility. Now, that being said, it doesn't mean that I completely abandoned Erin, I don't. She is part of who I am and I try to find a compromise as to what I can do daily to still feel Erin's presence which for me is calming and, and still be what my wife and children need/want. I think I am getting there. Certainly much happier with this tactic and family is happy that I can still be there for them, and be happier myself. I am not sure this is making sense, so I may need to take some more time to think about how to verbalized my thoughts.

Thanks for the thread Isha, and to all the other girls for their comments.

Erin

[Michaella]

This is very interesting. I do not like being male, but I have tried to be a good person and a good husband. I don't know that those have much to do with being a man, as opposed to a woman, that is. Could I be as good a person, and as good a spouse, while being a woman? I hope I would. (I don't know if I will have that chance.) There are responsibilities either way. They may be financial, emotional, moral, ethical, and so on. Does dressing femme prevent me from meeting them? I don't think so. Would transitioning to being a woman prevent that? It should not. Ah, but there is one thing: if my wife does not accept me as feminine, and she doesn't, and does not want me to live as a woman, and she certainly does not, then am I by those alone failing to be the man she needs and wants? I'm afraid the answer to that is yes.

Michaella

[Holly]

SO1Adam12, I sincerely apologize if anything I said led you to believe that I was suggesting that you change a thing that you and your spouse are doing. The fact that you believe that the two of you "are on the same page" gives every indication that whatever the two of you are doing IS WORKING so don't change a thing. The point I was trying to make (perhaps poorly :) ) was that if two people concentrate on making one another happy irrespective of gender then neither person has to be under pressure to live up to some societal expectation that are, frankly, sometimes hindrances. Although you and I have never met, I have taken the liberty of reading some of your posts here and you seem to me to be a loving, compassionate, and sincere spouse. I admire you for that. I place high value on people who are committed to making relationships work. My wife and I will celebrate our 47th anniversary before this year ends. Believe me when I say this is more a testimony to her than it is to me! But truly we both do work to make this happen. I wish you and your husband the same equal happiness that my wife and I have shared all these years. Commit to exploring life together and prepare to be amazed at where you go.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Isha, I have a Roofers card, That covers everything.

[SO1Adam12]

I exchanged my "man card" a number of years ago for a person card. It affords me the freedom to relate to my wife free of constraints placed upon us by gender expectations. I can fix her car and her hair with equal adeptness. She can do yard work and my nails with equal efficiency. To SO1Adam12 I understand your point and it is one that should be pondered by any couple in a committed relationship. Doing things for our partners because they like them is something we should all be doing. But I will let you in on a little secret... sometimes my wife holds a door for me and you know what? I like it too. Being freed from traditionally imposed gender roles should give us the ability to find MORE ways to please one another, not fewer. Carry on.

Holly, no offense taken- no apology necessary. :)

[MissTee]

Simply put: I hold two cards. Nothing to see here. Move along.

[Leslie Langford]

...Maybe the transsexuals who do this like to blur the lines, maybe they would have everyone believe there is no difference between crossdressers and TSs although I cannot understand why they would want this, other than perhaps their own inability to understand the differences between the two. Or maybe they like to prove to CDers and others reading the CD threads like GGs that they are women, although I fail to understand why they might feel this necessary. It just feels as an attempt to come off as being somehow superior although I'm sure this is not the intent.

Likely this P.O.V. is linked to that old canard that asks "What is the difference between a crossdresser and a transsexual?", the answer being "...about 5 years"

That said, I have read the stories of many here who joined this forum thinking that they were "mere" crossdressers, but eventually came to the realization that they were actually TS after all, and then went on to get their beards lasered off, began taking female hormones, and eventually made the desision to transition fully. And once they "found" themselves, many of them left, never to return. Anyone here remember former members and frequent posters like ReneeT, NatashaCD, RobertaM, and MJ (among others) who went that route?

Sometimes when a journey is embarked upon, it takes many twists and turns, and the eventual destination turns out not to be what one had been expecting at the beginning. Life has a way of surprising us like that sometimes...

[SO1Adam12]

So Holly, it's your opinion that all CDer's are TG's in the making?

[flatlander_48]

To me, the important part in all of this is simply:

Whatever you are, and regardless of whether it moves you to action or not, Embrace It. Claim your entire self.

The thing is, when we don't claim our entire selves, we will be perpetually adrift because there will always be something missing. What I've finally sorted out is that Don and DeeAnn are two sides of the SAME coin. You can't have one without the other. Clearly DeeAnn represents some complications for Don and that will probably always be the case. However, the best thing it does is complete the picture. These two parts can coexist and they mesh surprisingly well now that I have allowed DeeAnn to take her rightful place. Had I not done that, it would be a continual struggle.

[Gillian Gigs]

I appreciate what Amy said. For me it was hard to be one of the guys, when you never really fit in.
My wife says that I have been a good husband, yes she is accepting of my CD side.
I have been a good father, I have three successful and well adjusted children.
It is outside of my family unit that I don't fit in. Most guys don't talk about what I am interested in, life, history, metaphysics, psychology, sociology, something that you can wrap your brain around. I only get primal about football, but I see it more like a chess match, best strategy game in the world. Fifa football is similar, but to often it is like watching paint drying. I guess I will keep my man card, as long as some sports are still worth watching.

[Sometimes Steffi]

I'm not giving up my man card. Sometimes I need it even in girl mode.

Last Saturday I was at a CD/TS event where admirers were invited. While I recognize their right to exist -- in some ways they're no weirder than me -- I don't want them hitting on me. And they didn't, possibly because they weren't attracted to me, but more likely because I didn't give them any indication that I might be attracted to them. One of the GG/SOs wanted a drink from the bar, but she had to cross admirer land to get to their. So I decided to pull out my man card and be her wing(wo)man.

[Requal Jo]

I hold a lot of cards as my job is very masculine and I require the qualifications and accreditations to work. (They will become obsolete soon as I am fast approaching retirement).

As stated by others, I am a man who enjoys wearing female apparel and do this when able. In simple terms "a MTF CD'er".

I will always be a man for my wife and look after her as any gentleman should.

Enjoyed reading your post Isha. Very thought provoking as usual.

[Amanda L.]

Great post Isha and I have been thinking about this all day (well on and off of course).
The responses from the other members of this forum have proved an interesting read and I guess reflect each individuals position along the continuum.
I am at a point where I am comfortable with my female self and still very much in control of my 'man card' But its a case of the 'nevers' again. Do I say I will never give up my man card only to find myself being challenged down the track should circumstances to be the alpha male in my workplace change? or I remove myself from a testosterone charged industry.
In my current mind set the answer is clear, I will NEVER give it up. I enjoy my male self too much but I also enjoy being a woman when I can. My sons need a father not another mother, so I think about the impact on them and of course my wife needs a husband. Ultimately my motivation is going to be driven by self wants and a lot of soul searching should the issue ever arise.
Right now though, its not even a blip on the radar (have I become a fence sitter?)
Luv
Amanda

[Zylia]

If anything, this thread proves yet again that cross-dressers in general don't subvert gender norms, they only confirm them. The whole "when I'm not dressed pretty, I'm still a man" thing bugs me to no end. I guess this is the same thing with women with careers when their ability to be a 'mother' or a caring partner is questioned because they have decided not to spend the rest of their lives chained to the kitchen sink. Anyway, if this gives any SO peace of mind, the more power to them.

[Katey888]

Zylia - I was thinking that too but just couldn't find the correct, brief way to say it... so thanks - I agree it bugs me too, but can't quite put my finger on why... :thinking:

All I can think to add is: yes, you can keep your 'man card' - but it is irrevocably tinged with a spangly, pink aura... :devil:

Katey x

[Anna H]

Gee Ladies...I'm thinking i'm not anywhere near manly enough to be
a CD.

I'm going to take a bulldozer class and get myself qualified...

(after I finish painting my nails)...LOL!

[Claire Cook]

It's so good to read everyone's responses to Isha's thread (as usual Isha, you have such a knack for posing these thoughtful questions). They just reaffirm that we are individuals, and have different outlooks toward our CD/TG. I lean toward Holly's view -- I value my person card. It works with my wife whether I am dressed or not, and more and more works more of the time.

[Sometimes when I play my "man card" I think I'm bluffing. ("You got to know when to hold 'em,. know when to fold 'em....")] :heehee:

[noeleena]

Hi,

Can i have a man card and a females card, i mean i do both male and female work, and my women friends prefer me doing thier jobs.. so what ya think about that ,

...noeleena...

[Marcelle]

Hi all,

Thanks for your many replies some thought provoking, some very funny and others just plain great. :)



If anything, this thread proves yet again that cross-dressers in general don't subvert gender norms, they only confirm them. The whole "when I'm not dressed pretty, I'm still a man" thing bugs me to no end . . .


Zylia - I was thinking that too but just couldn't find the correct, brief way to say it... so thanks ... Katey x

Zylia / Katey,

This was not the intent of the thread. I was pointing out the exact opposite. I was not implying that a "man card" is all about all the gender stereotype bullshi&* normally assigned to it. There is more to being a "real man" than just thumping your chest, making fire and slaying animals. I was pointing out that the good parts of who you are as a man need to be brought forward into your relationship if you are planning on making it work (caring, sharing and being there for your SO, family, etc). That includes when you are dressed and yes Zylia . . . when you are not dressed. I find it hard to believe you can be anything but a man when you are not dressed or for that matter when you are dressed. Having said that, just because you are a man it doesn't mean you have to be a macho jerk . . . just be decent . . . hence own your man card. Sorry if that bugs you but that is how I see it. :)


Hi Isha,
Been wanting to say this for awhile. Whenever I read any of your threads I hear Carrie Bradshaw's voice! You know Sarah Jessica Parker, sex in the city. Your insight and writing style is great! So enlightening and entertaining.
BTW, i wholeheartedly agree about the man card!

Thanks . . . never thought of that. I could never wear the heels she does though :battingeyelashes:


Hi Isha, I have a Roofers card, That covers everything.

LOL :D


Hugs

Isha

[mariehart]

I only ever had a fake man card! Now I mostly don't bother with it. If someone questions my masculinity I can only agree with them.
I just spent the last 3 days in man mode. Undergoing very stressful re-currency training for my job. The final check was with a no nonsense taskmaster for whom perfect is a minimum standard. At the end I was fighting back the tears despite my attempt to keep it together for professional reasons. So much for my man card!

In any case I don't believe there are rigid and distinct male and female roles or behaviour. You only have to look around at friends, acquaintances and family to see how people don't fit the stereotype.

Of all people CDs should see this. Whether you are Jenny or John. You're the same person. If not then one is role play. Which is fine as long as you understand that's what it is. I was in a car once with a CD. We were dressed of course. Traffic was heavy and he started drifting the car back and forth during pauses. 'This' he explained. 'is what women do.' I wasn't amused but it showed the mindset. The CD group we were part of always seemed to me to be something of a man's club where they happen to dress in women's clothing.

I thought it rather ironic.

[ginger56]

Thank you so much Isha,that was well put.I wish Icould get my wife to understand this.She has some health issues and I do my very best to make life easy for her wether I'm Ginger mode or guy mode.She has FM,fibromyalgia,cronic fatigue,and also suffers with depression.As a spouse I do a lot of the house hold chores for her to make life easy for her.I do my guy things as well,yard work,working on our cars and any home repairs that need to be done as well.

[Zylia]

[...] the good parts of who you are [-] as a man [/-] need to be brought forward into your relationship if you are planning on making it work (caring, sharing and being there for your SO, family, etc).
FTFY;)

What I'm trying to say here is that being a good partner has little to do with (revoked) man cards. My gender (identity, presentation, et cetera) obviously is of some importance in a romantic relationship because that's how sexual attraction works, but being a good partner is gender neutral.

By the way, don't get me wrong, I make man card jokes myself all the time, but that's what they are: jokes.

[devida]

I understand, Isha, that it seems to help most people to define themselves within categories that they can slot within the binaries of male and female, masculine and feminine. I don't find that it helps me, or my relationship. In fact, it just confuses me. I know what you are saying is that some wives are worried that their gender non conforming husbands will lose the elements that made them attractive but this is only true if the husbands and wives choose to define personal, emotional and psychological qualities in terms of the binaries of male and female characteristics. I cannot frankly find a single psychological, social or emotional characteristic that has to be defined this way. As others have said kindness, attentiveness, compassion, protectiveness, nurture, love, every single quality that some might assign to wives are also easily found in husbands. I try to make sure that these characteristics are the ones that I present in my relations with everyone, and certainly towards my wife. Aggressiveness, self confidence, determination, authoritativeness, intellectual acuity, goal orientation and other supposedly typical qualities in men are obviously found in women and my wife certainly has most of these in quantities as great or greater than I do. Maybe I am more goal oriented but these and other characteristics change and fluctuate from day to day.

My wife and I have no interest in defining ourselves within gendered stereotypes so the question you pose makes little sense in our relationship. I'd probably have to be revived with smelling salts if she ever wondered if my being transgender somehow made me less of a man. Of course it does. But it does not have to make me more of a woman, either. And the idea that my wife would even think in those terms is very, very unlikely. Being transgender does not make me less of me. It makes me more me. And my wife certainly did not marry me because of anything to do with my gender. Until I was able to free myself from the truly wretched gender conditioning that men of my age and background are trapped within I didn't really realize that. I did not understand how very little my inflated ideas of gender had to do with why she was attracted to me. I think she disliked most of those gendered behaviors. She certainly complained about the inconsideration that my male privileged decrees manifested. She thought my reluctance to ask for help or directions just silly, and that, I am sorry to say, was socially conditioned male behavior (I am better now but still have to work on it). She has repeatedly told me how much better of a person I am since I understood I was transgender. She understands how disturbing stereotypical male conditioning is. I would not define my wife as transgender. She identifies as being a woman but she rejects, in practically everything she does, the socially conditioned idea of what a woman is.

So let me suggest that it is only in gendered relationships that your topic makes sense. I am sure that for many people there is psychological conflict resulting from gender non conforming behaviors like cross dressing, but cross dressing is only one of the many ways that socially conditioned gendered behavior disrupts relationships and destroys marriage. If you look closely at the reasons for divorce many, perhaps most, relationships break down because of gender expectations. Funnily enough this is the exact opposite of the reasons people who adopt traditional roles believe that marriages dissolve.

I am not by any means alone on this board among people reporting that their gender non conformity has made their relationships better.

In fact your relationship with your SO might not be so different than mine. Is that because you are careful to maintain areas of gender conformity (your man card) in your relationship or just because you are careful to be considerate, loving, and supportive? Is it because you are a man, presenting manly traits or because you are a decent human being presenting those qualities we all believe good human beings should have? Is your man card really that useful?

[Marcelle]

Hi all,

Okay I admit defeat . . . my intent was not to say "Hey act like a man!" in a gender conforming kind of way (spit on the ground, fix trucks, hold doors open). It was meant to say "Hey if you are in a relationship and your SO is concerned that parts of who she defined as man, husband, guy are being absorbed, displaced, to the point that you are no longer the person she married . . . then you could have issues."

The "man card" in this instance is whatever type of man you were before you started down this path. If you were a caring person, always doing things with your SO and now you have become so self-absorbed in dressing that you don't do things you used to do . . . own your (personal) man card and do those things (if you can do them en femme, so be it . . . if not then you might need to do them as a guy . . . it depends on your own personal relationship). Before you started dressing did you grab your tool belt and get busy with renos, home repairs and whatnot and now it is all about looking pretty, baking, doing housework . . . well if your SO is fine with that and she is willing to tackle the renos and whatnot then that is great . . . however if she is not and it is causing issues then again "own your personal man card" and continue to do those things . . . heck you can do them "en femme" if that is within your relationship.

For me it is all about coexistence (guy/girl me). I don't change one way or the other dressed or not (with the exception of look and mannerisms). When I am guy me . . . I still hold the door open for my wife but heck I hold the door open for other people as well when I am Isha (it is the polite thing not the guy thing to do). I play Mr and on occasion Mrs Fix-it around the house because that is what I do . . . it is not a guy thing it is an interest thing. I also like to cook but that is not a girl thing . . . again an interest thing. With the exception of a very dark depressive point in my life I have always joked around, listened to my wife, given her advice and asked her advice . . . not a guy thing but a person thing. However the sum total of those things (and others) define the man I am (my personal man card) and that is what I choose to own. Would I take exception of some guy hassling my wife or getting a bit too invasive with her? Oh you can bet your bottom dollar dressed or not dressed I would have words . . . does that make me a Neanderthal? No it makes me a concerned spouse.


In the end, my take was don't loose sight of the man (yes you can imply person but let's face we are men) you were before you came out to your SO (again I am looking at this from a married perspective). The "man card" was just my attempt to put a humorous take on things as we have all heard that saying and I thought it was funny. However, I rescind the "man card statement" and will rename I "good person card" to avoid confusion. :) . . . my apologies if I have offended some.

Hugs

Isha

[Cheryl T]

I think someone made a mistake on mine...it just says "Human Being".

[Krististeph]

I love this post, and all the replies. It's funny that so many people thing a CD cannot be a 'man'... if so, than they are a 'women' since there is nothing else allowed, right? Holy cow, what hypocritical and faulty logic is that? I think a lot of it has to do with men supposedly not being allowed to approve of anything but manliness in a man, lest they be seen as a less manly man. Of course I think that's just retarded (and i use the word in the clinical sense), CDs in many ways are arguably MORE manly or macho:

Simply going out in public in a dress takes guts! Or shopping in public, either en femme or en drab. Getting waxed or lasered is painful- possibly more so than for women due to thicker hair.

I also do things that are typically 'macho', that the majority of women and men do not out of fear of injury or lack of faith in their own abilities- flying, motorcycling, fixing my own brakes, etc.

Turn in my 'man card'?? Only if they turn in their 'whack job' card first.

[skirtsuit]

I think someone made a mistake on mine...it just says "Human Being".

No mistake, it's the 21st century!
man/woman 'card's?? why even discuss something that is re-enforcing 20th cent. gender stereotypes?

Also, I can say from many conversations with GGs when out & about, it takes real balls to step out in a dress!

Best,
Mrs. Wedge

[Seana Summer]

I think I am very fortunate to have had great opportunities over the past few years to really think about where I am and where I am going. I own my "man card" and yet I am at peace with the fact that I tuck it away every so often (no pun intended) and wear things that would not be approved of as "man wear". But I am in a very different spot than many on this board it seems. I do not consider myself a women in a mans body. I am me, and I love the look and the feel of my nylons and heels and all the other distinctly female things I own. Yet I am still a man..........

Seems odd doesn't it????

[Marcelle]

Moderators . . . It appears that the intent of my threat which was meant to be fun has been misinterpreted due to my poor ability to express what I was trying to convey . . . please close this thread . . . I apologize for the trouble this has caused.

To all who have replied I thank-you for your comments no reflection on you . . . all my bad.

Hugs

Isha