Always progressing

[Lidea]

Hi

I just want to know why is this thing always progressing.... always shifting boundaries?*What was good a couple of months ago is not good enough any more.
For instance... I never allowed my husband to dress at home... ever! Which means he only underdressed at work. He didn't have a wig or makeup or anything else except underwear...Then he started being so absentminded at home because of his urges to dress fully, since the underdressing wasn't enough anymore.
So February this year I sent him away for two weeks to go and enjoy his life that he felt he needed.When he came back, he told me that he will never be satisfied with underdressing anymore. He needs the whole of Jenny.And with that he told me that all he wants is to be able to dress every now and again (more or less 2 weeks) at home. If he is allowed that, he won't even bother to go out.........yeah right.

Since then he gets an evening to dress every 2 weeks, with me..... and of course sometimes some underdressing when he starts to fall apart. We've gone out together twice, and will go to a ballet show in 3 weeks time, because as he told me... it's not enough to be all dressed up and nowhere to go..
.When I asked him about what happened to the 'just as long as I can dress at home occasionally, I will be satisfied' thing, he just replied.... oh, I suppose it changed.Now where will this stop?

We have 5 small children, so dressing more frequently and openly is not a possibility, but I fear that he will get to the point that to dress more often and go out more often might become higher priority than keeping it away from the children. I even fear the big 'T'.... even though he claims to be only CD with some gender confusion.When will enough be really enough?Sometimes it is exactly this always moving forward that causes me to want to draw back, because I stepped over the line that I drew, for his sake, and with some understanding that that would be enough....just to have to step over the next line again.

[Marcelle]

Hi Lidea. I have to admit that things can become quite progressive and at a rapid pace as I have found out. I went from never dressing (heck not even knowing) to full presentation in public within a few months and now I dress and go out when the desire takes me (Isha days as my wife and I have come to call them). However, we do not have children at home so my ability to dress is not curtailed by that. I guess I have to ask . . . have you and Jenny set boundaries (what you can both live with)? It might be time for a conversation on just how far you are willing to accept and far she sees herself going, and then working from there. For my wife and I we are both in this together and we have agreed upon certain things but because I have been given full rein to explore I have reached a point where I am happy just being and coexistence with Isha is quite good. My wife was also afraid of the big "T" but that has abated now that things have settled into a calm.

To be honest sweetie, a very candid conversation is long overdue to determine what boundaries will work for both of you IMHO.

Hugs

Isha

[Lidea]

Hi Isha
We talk very often about it to gain a better understanding about it and our feelings wrt it. I suppose the boundary talk is normally something where he is saying what he would want or that what he has is not sufficent anymore, and I would tell him what I am not prepared to do or allow. And then after some talking and crying and so forth, I will give into it, with the understanding that that will suffice.....Just to find out it wasnt the case.

Just read what all these cheerleaders on this site say.... small steps, she'll get there. Just dont overwhelm her, just take small steps.
That implies a 'rules are made to be broken' attitude

[Coping2014]

Lidea,

While at the moment I don't have this issue I have been reading lots of the posts on here and just the other day I read where they were complaining about their GG wives and how they constantly flip flop about issues - one day they are alright with something and the next they aren't. Well I guess my question is how is this situation you and many other GG wives find themselves in ANY different than that? Answer is ... it's not!

Coping2014

[Marcelle]

Hi Lidea,

IMHO when it comes to what we do, rules are there to protect both parties from unwanted emotional strain and distress. My wife is aware how important the Isha identity is to me but I am also cognizant of how important the "boy me" identity is to her. There are certain things she will not do "go out with me" is a prime one as she went out once and it did not go well so she does not want to see that hurt again . . . I respect that and never broach the subject again. You will need to be put your own needs, wants and desires in the mix in order for this to work especially when it starts to progress.

When I started my wife wondered the same thing "How far will this go?" and we agreed that therapy will need to run its course and now both of us know that while I am CD I probably lean toward mild GID but we work through that in the method that works for us and Isha has been accepted as part of our life. However we both have agreed that should it progress further to the point where she can no longer travel this path with me then we will go our separate ways . . . not because we don't love each other but precisely because we love each other and do not wish to hurt one another.

Hugs

Isha

[Zylia]

The nature of the beast I guess. I certainly 'progressed' a lot in the last few years, although it pretty much plateaued, for now at least. A transgender individual's 'transness' isn't necessarily something predetermined. Cross-dressers turned transsexuals don't necessarily find out that they were 'transsexual all along', they just developed the dysphoria warranting a transition as time moved on. Anyway, it's a statistical certainty that not many cross-dressers take their cross-dressing to its 'logical' conclusion, but some obviously do.

[Kris Avery]

Lidea,

It's difficult to understand another's situation.

For me, it goes in spurts. Some days, for a few hours and then not much for several days. Well, other than the under dressing and bed clothes.

But, since joining - I have been enjoying posting some pictures here and so my SO is assured at least a weekly visit from her girlfriend will happen.

Please read my introduction in that section. Discussion and placing the mate (both of you) first is absolute KEY in any successful marriage.
We both feel we are the luckiest girl on the planet for lucking into each other and spend each moment trying to please the other then ourselves - in that order.

I also am acutely aware that you MUST put more into a marriage than you take back. Tell your mate - keep the GG happy, the rest will fall into place.

[Kate Simmons]

This is a question he really needs to ask himself Lidea and he really needs to talk to you from his heart and tell you how he feels. This is a problem with the CDing process as sometimes it becomes insidious and takes on a mind of it's own and that mind can be calculating and devious. The bottom line is reining in the process and controlling it rather than letting it control you. No easy task but if there are important things at stake such as love and family it's really worth the honest effort. The only way to really control it is to make it a conscious choice, then it doesn't become such an urgency but the person has to want to do it. :)

[AllieSF]

I am not so sure the cheerleaders here are saying keep stretching that inch that she gave you to make it a mile and a half. I think what many and hopefully most are saying, some clearer than others, is that both the CD and the SO should take small steps, giving both parties time to adjust to the new freedoms and activities of one and to let the other side see if they can adapt to the newer situation. Unfortunately, as you may have read here and Isha so clearly pointed out, what may have existed previously at a very low activity level can quickly accelerate as one, the CD in this case, realizes how nice, fun and self fulfilling the new steps, advancements and experiences can be for them. Depending on age, which looking at your picture seems to be much younger than me, us older folks realize that we are starting to get closer to that light at the end of the tunnel of life quicker than we want to, and we then decide to do more what we want to but never experienced. Assuming that your husband has dealt with this for most of his life, any new freedom may very well progress to wanting more freedom and experiences as he realizes all the fun, and it is a lot of fun and satisfaction for me, it can be to do it more often and get out more.

This is where the go slow recommendations come in as he needs to learn how to deal properly with that new freedom and what it means to himself and how it effects those around him, especially family. That go slow time also lets others, you in this case, time to catch up, maybe better understand what is happening and time to see if you can adapt to what is happening. Based on what you wrote, I would guess that he will want more freedoms until he finds that balance point for this side of his life and his more traditional side, husband, father, and provider.

As Isha said, in this whole process you have to take care of yourself and try to understand where and how far that you may be able to go with all this. I would not hesitate to see a therapist/counselor with some "T" related, as well as, relationship related experience to help you both work this out. I really don't think your husbands really knows where this is all going either. The counseling may help determine that too.

One way of looking at it may be someone who has been using a stationary exercise bicycle to keep in shape. One day he/she decides to try riding a bicycle outside around the subdivision. Then, on the back roads, then join a riding clubs for longer and more challenging rides, then maybe on to competitive riding with all the extra training and conditioning it requires. I know that this is a lot easier for some spouses to accept because it is healthy and readily acceptable as an outside activity. But, as you can see, that healthy little exercise bike riding can and does quite frequently evolve into a very time consuming hobby and need for the participant. That is where as many will say in this thread, workable limits and compromises are in order. If you can't work those out between yourselves, that is where the therapist/counselor can be a great help. CDing is not as simple as my analogy of riding a bicycle, because it is much deeper than exercise, touring around the country in the fresh air. It can have serious impacts on those around them. However, the progression from something simple to something more time and mind consuming is similar.

I hope you can work it out, because we don't find a lot of SO's out here in the real world that can even get as far as you have, which is really a shame for both parties. You are a very rare and prized find for a lot of us.

[MatildaJ.]

Hi Lidea,

As Reine often points out, for many CDers the need builds and builds when it is being repressed. But if the CDer is given leeway to find their comfort zone, often the situation stops progressing, and they find a schedule that keeps them happy.

For me, it calmed my nerves to start talking about the issue in general with my children. We've talked about gender issues, referring to boys they know who keep their hair long, or girls who refuse to wear dresses. I told them that people like what they like, and that doesn't always follow the gendered expectations of our society. As my kids have hit puberty, I've made sure they know that I would love them the same if they were gay or trans, and that if their friends turn out gay / trans / whatever they should be supportive.

So if they figure out about their dad's gender issues, or if he needs to come out to them -- I think the groundwork is in place that they won't be horrified and feel betrayed. And laying that groundwork can start with very young children: just as we teach gender roles to children by exposing them to mainstream culture, we can also point them to books and websites which teach that it's also okay to bend the gender rules. (Like Marlo Thomas's "Free to Be...You and Me" or Munro Leaf's "The Story of Ferdinand" or Brett Axel's Goblinheart, etc. etc.)

So then, if you weren't petrified of your children finding out... Could you renegotiate with your husband, asking him to propose an arrangement he thinks would be enough, at least for this year? Maybe Dad gets private time in the evenings? Maybe he could shop for clothes that are somewhat gender ambiguous (soft pants, silky shirts...), and he can wear them openly at home?

[Jenniferathome]

Lidea, First and foremost, "transition" is just not a reality about which you need to worry. I know it's in the back of your mind but don't let it have too much attention. Now, as for the progression, it's not a straight line. It doesn't go up and to the right for ever. The ramp rate will slow. Really. Still, I think it is fair for you to set boundaries. Those boundaries can't realistically be "forever" but set some for 6 months and agree to discuss again at the end of the time period. This give your husband an expectation that "x" is ok now and 'y" can be discussed in 6 months. This does not imply that you have to give more at the end of the period. Just that a real discussion will happen.

I wish you the best and thank you for being such an open wife.

[Tinkerbell-GG]

Lidea, I think you're coping really well! I haven't been on my email lately due to some family issue that I've been dealing with, but I've born wondering how you're doing? It sounds like you're worried but also figuring things out too. That's better than before!

As for the progression, honestly, you can't do much about this and you really can't control another person. Only they can do this. The thing you CAN control is your own life and limits and you really should sit down and have a think what these are. How much are you able to live with? At what point (dressing around the kids, going out more etc) are you no longer comfortable with your H's activities? What ARE you comfortable with? You owe it to yourself and your children to look after your happiness. No one said marriage meant putting that aside. I really hope you can both figure this out, but always remember to stay true to YOU as well. Trust me, when you stop doing this, when you pretend to be happy while you're really miserable, your health and everything around you will suffer.

And Jenny (since I'm sure you're reading all this :) ) I know you're trying very hard to keep things working between you both, but have you had any counselling to figure out what this is and where it's going? You also need to be true to yourself, but if this is bigger than you initially thought and Jenny is someone you need a lot more of, it's a hard reality that such a situation may not be amicable with your marriage. And that might sound difficult to hear, but it's also worrying when the members here talk of slowly pushing boundaries with the spouse as Lidea mentioned. We wives notice this! But we notice it in the form of emotional distress and anxiety and we slowly but surely become more and more unhappy while our partner pushes these boundaries. It is much better to sit down and talk about these changes than just to slowly do them. But I think you know this and I think you both communicate quite well now? I really, really hope you can both figure this out and keep your family together, and that Jenny will find her place in your lives but not at the expense of everything else.

Lidea, send me a pm here if you need to chat xx

[Emi_]

In truth, he will go as far as you let him go. This thing has a funny way of taking on a life of it's own if it isn't kept in check. The more you do it, the more you seem to want to do it and it takes more to be satisfied each time. If you feel he's gone too far, you have to say so. Marriage is a partnership and both sides need to have their say. It would be unhealthy for both of you to leave him unchecked particularly if you feel hat it could be detrimental to the marriage. He is your husband first, you and your well-being are most important.

[lexivanderpump]

Lidia,
My wife and I are going through the EXACT same thing. About one year ago, she finally allowed me to buy women's heels. I had told her that would be enough. Well now I own several pair of women's heels, dresses, makeup. Now I am hinting about buying a wig. I shave my legs and eventually want to shave my chest. I don't quite know how to explain it. I guess we are not happy until we have it "all". If my wife lets me buy a wig, I will do so. We have small children as well who will I presume eventually figure out that mom does not wear a size 12 heel. Someone once asked Rockefeller about money, "How much is enough?"....his response was...."Just a little bit more."......................................

[Greenie]

Oh lidea. I understand this feeling. Luca and I finally started couples counseling. We have a great therapist who is trans and is helping us navigate my fears. I worry those same things. Why so much so fast? I give an inch, he takes a mile. Will it ever be good enough. What happens when what he wants is just too much.

Being able to realize that you cannot ever plan forever. You can plan his cding about as much as you can plan for the loss of a job, or an illness.... not at all. The future is a scary place. You cannot make decisions on tomorrows possibilities. This is my new mantra. I need to repeat it to myself often.


You need to be able to be honest and clear with what you are ready for. Dont force yourself to be okay with exrta, to prevent something in the future. I have done then.... maybe if I dont tell him x makes me uncomfortable, I will get used to it and that will be enough. That is a disservice to you and to him. Its hard, but be honest from the start. My issue is "am I holding him back, but gosh x makes me so uncomfortable." As is with everything, communication.

[Lidea]

Thank you all for such great replies.


I guess I want to reitterate that communication is key, and that in my opinion it is cruel to marry someone without telling them about your CDing.
:shutup:

[Jenny Elwood]

Always progressing?

It is so strange that two people who share their lives and pretty much everything else (including some clothes/wigs:daydreaming:) can have such different take on things. Earlier last night we had a nice intercession where we, to my mind anyway, had a nice discourse on the direction our lives has taken. I tried to assure her of my intentions and that I will try minimize the impact of my need for Jenny, because I know what having Jenny around does to her. To my mind we've already reached a fair balance between what I'm asking for and what she is willing to give, but for some reason she is thinking that I will forever try "stretch" that which we have mutually agreed upon. Not true. I have stated from the start (ever since the two week enforced absence thing) that two weeks is a long stretch and I stand by asking for a 10 day frequency. This has never changed.

Yes I enjoy going out. With her. I have no-one else to go out with. I have no friends who will not run for the hills if they knew. This is South Africa, liberal by constitution, conservative by nature (the part I live in anyway). But I've toned down my expectations appreciably because I understand that it is a lot more stressfull for her than it is for me. (at 6'6" without heels I have little hope of blending, let alone passing). My dear wife, you can set the numbers, I will conform to your wishes regarding this, which I most often do anyway. And thanks for finding it in your heart to accommodate Jenny, she is not the enemy you might think.

Regarding therapists they almost sent me down the TS route, so I'm a bit loathe. I'd rather spend the money on some nice dresses to clothe a distinctly male body in from time to time. I'm a man, I've dealt with it and got the (pink) T-shirt. Regarding the kids, I would not be a good father if I did not consider their well-being and the impact all of this has on them on a daily basis. I want what's best for my kids, who wouldn't, so keeping this a closely guarded secret is as much a priority for me as it is for you my dear. I see no benefit in them knowing, let's keep it that way.

I'm sorry for "stretching" you even in the slightest way regarding this, I know it was not what you signed up for when you married me 12 years ago. But thanks for accommodating my needs, it is appreciated far more than you know.

[trisha kobichenko]

My SO and I have been married for 34 years. She has only been aware of my desire to CD for the last 3 years. Suffice it to say there was some DRAMA surrounding me coming out to her. BUT an agreement we made long ago 'we are actually looking for the same outcomes, but may have different opinions on the process to get there' is still in place. We look to provide each other with happiness--she with acceptance of my revealed desires, I with acceptance of issues she has with them. We strive to make each other happy, period, without giving up who we are.
Trish

[Kate Simmons]

Just thought I'd mention something. When it comes to limitations or even perhaps trying to "quit" CDing, no matter how noble the reson, I discovered years ago just what a pull this process exerts on some of us. The best way I found it summed up was a song from Mariah Carey's debut album in 1990 entitled "You need me". This is the CDing process talking to the CDer and why I always say it's an emotional process with very deep rooted feelings. Understanding it and how it works is the key to control. :)

[Lidea]

Hi
This thread was not intended to hurt my husband or to make him out as always wanting to shift boundaries.
I merely used incidents in our relationship to explain my thoughts, after I read some posts on other threads where people encouraged one another to go to the next step 'now for the correct makeup' or 'now you just have to go out' etc.
The cheerleading that I referred to. I just tried to show that, depending on where your SO is coming from, a little push can be perceived by her as a big stretch.
To my husband's credit, he really tries hard not to push me. I know he would like a 10day thing but accepts the 2 weeks. I just always go back to the scenario where he didnt even had the oppertunity to fully dress, and he was okay with what he had.

If I gave the impression that he is ALWAYS pushing, then I'm sorry. That is not the case. True to his personality, he will often see if there is a chance for some forward movement, but I know him like that.

We had a good discussion last night and I do feel at a better place currently.

I am going to withdraw myself from this thread, since it looks like instead of throwing some geniune SO concerns on the table, it hurt my husband and put him in a bad light.
Sorry for anyone that felt offended by this.

Lidea

[Katey888]

Lidea - I don't think you have to apologise for having your own perspective in this... you are an equal partner in your relationship and have every right to challenge something that your partner wanted to do, particularly if it was to have a social impact on you and your family, which I imagine it would.

I have a little idea of the nature of how conservative your environment is - I'm not sure that understanding or appreciation is always shared by the cheerleaders on the forum - and at the end of it all, those who interact here (including me) are only individuals with an opinion. The only thing that qualifies us to be here is that we can be bothered to register and we all experience some part of the CD/TG condition... It doesn't mean that any advice here is either qualified or representative of what should or shouldn't happen, nor should you feel that just because other individuals have developed in a particular way that necessarily applies to anyone else...

Everyone here wants to help - but sometimes that help can be misplaced and less than useful - unfortunately, you have to decide which is right for you and your SO... :)

I think you're doing fantastically well so far - but remember to treat this place like anywhere else on the web... with extreme caution... ;)

Katey x

[Jenny Elwood]

No! No! No! Katey, why are you getting her response count up?

My dear I am not hurt at all. What I said, I did not say from hurt, but just that people will be privy to my side as well. I'm sorry if I hijacked your thread and what your actual intention with it was. I'll be more careful in future to try fathom the intent behind your discourse. And I love you, more than ever.

Now I'm also getting her response count up. Ughh!

[Greenie]

If you and your husband are both on the site, you need to have a discussion about the forum being a safe place. You should never be made to feel guilty or like you did anything wrong for asking for advice. Many wives arent here and dont participate because they dont support their husbands. This conversation between the two of you on the thread is a little awkward and derailed your original attepmt to learn about cding and progression in a way that can make you a more supportive and thoughtful partner. I think you two need to discuss what can and cannot be talked about on the forum openly. Luca and I have a rule, the forum is a safe place. If I say something on here that makes him think.... well then good. its a conversation that we wouldnt have had normally. But it appears that lidea is apologizing for reaching out to the community for help. And thats not really the alternative a husband should want? A wife who posts nothing because she is afraid of the reaction she will get, so she learns nothing.

Please lidea, dont stop posting your questions. Learning more about this will help in the long run. Even if its uncomfortable now.

[Jenny Elwood]

I agree with the "don't stop posting" bit. And I'll try stay off your threads in future (even if it's just to keep the response count down):tongueout.

[MsVal]

How far will it go.....
In an unrestrained environment, it will go as far as the crossdresser feels comfortable. Consider those that are single, live alone, and dress only at home. While they are free to go as far as they wish, they seem to have reached their point of comfort, and going further would present more discomfort than relief.

In a restrained environment, married with children is one, the same applies, but some of the discomfort may be due to things which may be changed. Therefore the requests for changes that will permit additional opportunities.

If sufficient opportunities are available, the restrained environment will resemble the unrestrained environment and the crossdressers will find their own point of equilibrium. No one, not even Jenny can say for sure what that point will be.

I liken it to people that enjoy a sport such as golf. It consumes time and money, and rewards better scores and enjoyment to those that devote greater of those consumables. In an unrestrained environment, we would be overrun with golf pros. We are not, because individuals reach their own points of greatest comfort.

I applaud your openness and willingness to talk about this sensitive issue. That speaks volumes about the love, dedication, and respect you two have for one another.

[MatildaJ.]

Yes I enjoy going out. With her. I have no-one else to go out with...I want what's best for my kids, who wouldn't, so keeping this a closely guarded secret is as much a priority for me as it is for you my dear.

If you go out of the house, especially with your wife (who is obviously recognizable) then your CDing is not a "closely guarded secret." Your children are young now, but in a few years they will have teenager friends who go out and about and there will be significant risk of your secret being revealed to them. You may not even know when your children find out. My advice, when you have a secret like this, is to prepare the ground by speaking to your children about how we should treat everyone with kindness and understanding, even people who are "different."

I do think you should work harder to find other people to go out with. That's not your wife's responsibility. It's your responsibility to find friends to do this with. There are other CDers in South Africa, I'm sure. Use the internet to find gay bars near you, and then explore the bars to find the ones which are CD-friendly.


How far will it go.....In an unrestrained environment, it will go as far as the crossdresser feels comfortable...If sufficient opportunities are available, the restrained environment will resemble the unrestrained environment and the crossdressers will find their own point of equilibrium.

That's very well said. For most people, even those who are single, CDing doesn't take over their lives. So married CDers can also probably find a point of equilibrium where they feel comfortable and plateau -- and that can give their wives time to get used to the "new normal" and adjust.

[natcrys]

How far will it go.....

In an unrestrained environment, it will go as far as the crossdresser feels comfortable. Consider those that are single, live alone, and dress only at home. While they are free to go as far as they wish, they seem to have reached their point of comfort, and going further would present more discomfort than relief.


I would say this hits the nail on the head. I'm single, live alone,.. in my case my friends know. I do dress at home, but more often I go out... as sitting at home dressed up is really boring.

I could go as far as dressing up all the time.. visiting all my friends as Tassia. However,.. I don't seem to do that.

Sure, sometimes this has practical reasons:


I can't show up dressed everywhere since my family and most colleagues don't know.. and I have to be careful
or sometimes it's raining and I don't want to my make-up and hair to get messed up,.. so boy-mode it is!

But usually it's just because I don't feel like it. Apparently, within my set of boundary conditions (both given and created), I have found my equilibrium... and I'm at peace. :)


Now, were I to be completely fully 100% out.. things might change.. or they might not. I could not possibly dare to make a prediction. YMMV

[NicoleScott]

I've seen the "slow down, small steps, she'll get there" cheerleading posts. Such an approach might give her the impression that the CDer isn't telling the whole story, but rather is holding back so she isn't overwhelmed to the point of total rejection. On the other hand, I'm sure there are CDers whose desires do progress but couldn't have predicted it.
Rules aren't meant to be broken. Negotiated agreements are meant to be re-negotiated, if necessary.

[MsVal]

[...] Rules aren't meant to be broken. Negotiated agreements are meant to be re-negotiated, if necessary.

Right On Nicole. Establish a mutually agreed set of permissions and constraints with the expectation that they will be revisited for review and possible revision, ideally on a particular date. That gives all parties an opportunity to try out different ideas to see if they work, without the expectation that they will be permanent.

[Lidea]

Maybe I can just clarify something, since I see a lot of you responded with something like set boundaries that will be revisited etc. And in principle I agree, but... but...

I still have as point A the no CD marriage that I 'signed up' for. Yes, I know why he didn't tell me and so forth. Now we are, say at point C. We can set boundaries, but when we revisit them again, chances are small, basically zero, that we will move back to point B, maybe we won't even stay at C. So most likely we will move to point D, even if D is just a small change further than C. And that is still progression.
My husband and I discuss things like this very often, almost every second day, or at least once a week. He is very accomodating, trying to minimize the impact of Jenny on my life. He loves me to bits, and I love him just the same.

But unless we are not back at A, it will be perceived as a stretch by me.

Thank you all for your kind and interesting input.
I suppose, once stubborn to accept, always stubborn to accept :heehee:

[MatildaJ.]

Lidea, there are no Cinderella happy-ever-after marriages where both people stay the way they were when they got married. You've probably changed too, since the wedding. A marriage isn't an agreement to never change -- it's an agreement to see past the changes and try to grow with each other, even when that's hard.

This CD stuff is certainly hard. Are there other things you want that you could bring into the negotiation, to help Jenny support you more? Maybe weekends away from the kids with your girlfriends? more help at home?

[sfwarbonnet]

Yeh, if you have half a loaf, you often want the whole loaf. CDing started when I tried on my sister’s bra. Then I underdressed on business trips. Now it’s underdressing full-time. I started with women’s pull-on pants, when I was comfortable with that; then came panties, tights, and a short slip. Now I am comfortable wearing sheer nylons and a bra. My wife gets all my clothes, except the bra. I’m working on that now, as her current limit is for me not to impersonate a woman in public. So for now underdressing is it; she has “bought into” the following:

!) Pants: Women’s pull on pants are much easier to put on than men’s belted pants. They do not need a fake fly, as the absence of it is usually not apparent, but I prefer non-figured and solid color, non-pastel pants so they are not readily identified as women’s clothing.

2) Panties: Underwear with a fly is unnecessary with pull on pants. Although there are no-fly briefs in the men’s department, women’s full-cut briefs work just as well, and are often cheaper.

3) Slips: Shirttails tend to readily pull out of pull on pants. This can expose panty and pantyhose tops. A “solution” is to wear a full slip that is short enough to be worn with slacks. Also slips are usually made of material that makes it easier to pull on and straighten pants.

4) Bra: This is generally considered a female item, but it can be useful in “boy mode” to keep non-adjustable straps on a slip from falling off the shoulders.

5) Pantyhose: An MD suggested that I wear pantyhose to avoid the indentation in my lower legs that mid-calf or knee-high socks make. Pantyhose do not require anything that is not also needed with pull on pants. Opaque ones are best, as they aren't readily identified as women's hosiery, but that isn't necessary and sheer pantyhose are OK and are more available. I actually prefer thigh highs as they are easier to put on, they do not need to be lowered to go to the bathroom, and only one leg needs to be deep-sixed when a run becomes apparent

6) Purse: One cannot usually keep a wallet, comb, notepad, phone, and keys in the small side pockets and lack of back pockets that are typical of women’s pants. My “solution” is to use a small shoulder purse, which can either be worn or secured in a basket when that is available.

The goal is to appear in public fully dressed as a female. Perhaps a costume party would provide the “excuse.” Always progressing…

[MatildaJ.]

@sfwarbonnet, I find your reasoning a little weird. You want to wear a bra & slip because you want to wear women's clothes, not because they solve practical problems in your life.

To me, slips & a bra aren't "underdressing" because both are apparent to other people (unless you have a jacket on as well). If your wife is fine with you wearing them and carrying a purse in "boy" mode, well, good for her -- and I think you should appreciate her open-mindedness and willingness to face potential difficult conversations with people who know both of you.

If you have differing goals (she doesn't want you to appear as a woman in public and you do), maybe that would be something to discuss together with a counselor, rather than just trying to pressure her to agree?

[Wildaboutheels]

"I just want to know why is this thing always progressing.... always shifting boundaries?*

What's the difference between a petulant child or a petulant CDer?

What good are laws or agreements if someone won't ENFORCE them? Loving someone does not require caving in to their every wish OR tear. That's not Love.

"Progress" is NOT inevitable.

[Tinkerbell-GG]

"Progress" is NOT inevitable.

I agree with this. Progression is definitely not inevitable in my mind (and from what I've read here and other forums) but it does seem to be preferred and even encouraged and this is not very different from any other human being (child or other) from pushing boundaries that may not be wise to push. We're a self-gratifying species, and if an experience can be heightened with more, more, more, then next comes the justifications as to WHY we absolutely must do xyz or we will surely die. It's just who we are, didn't you know?

No, it's not who we are; it's what we WANT, and we won't die for not getting everything we want. We'll be disappointed but that's life - it's not all about personal gratification. I mean, I suppose it could be and we could ignore being part of a wider social circle if we choose. But we also might wake up one day, find our personal satisfaction isn't quite so satisfying anymore, only there's no one around to share this with because they got bored and found someone more engaged to spend time with. That's not to say all progression is bad - progressing to a deeper understanding of ones self is something we should all do. But progressing solely to achieve a greater 'high' because the status quo is boring (which much of the stories here involve) is something you do at your peril, and the consequences are yours to own.

Balance, people. It's all about balance :)

[Beverley Sims]

Lidea,
I do not fear the big "T", he may want to dress more and I would say play the leash out slowly with some resistance so as you can maintain a boundary.
As for the children, I am sure he would not want them to find out as his secret may be revealed to every one.
Progression will happen but keeping a lid on it can be tricky.

[MissTee]

You make a fair point that you did not sign up for this, Lidea. I commend you for at least coming here and trying to educate yourself and understand. In the end, though, it was sprung on you and how you deal with it is how you deal with it.

As for always progressing, at least in my case, there is no progressing. I dress at home only, do not go out, and the wife knows and supports. I keep it from the kids and the public. That's enough for me, and consequently I do think it helps my wife be more amenable to my dressing. I do not judge others for wanting or needing more because I realize each of us are different. I do believe that because I can dress regularly at home (although a second home) the urge does not well up and drive me to need more. Not sure that I, too, wouldn't push the envelope if I wasn't in a position to let it out in smaller but frequent doses.

[Tina_gm]

My thoughts.... For so many of us, why we didn't tell was fear of what the response would be, yes. But also, that we were not ready ourselves. That was me also. I truly was not ready to admit to my gender issues at the time that I got together with my wife. I had gotten closer perhaps, but still not ready yet. Just as it takes all this time for GG's to come to grips, so does it with us too, at least me anyway.

I have realized a few things even after I had revealed my gender issues with my wife. But mostly, it is and has been my own comfort zone which has led to any progression. Of our agreements we have set from the beginning, none have changed in the physical sense. And I am prepared that none ever will. I did not disclose therefore it is on me to deal with. I am very much into the personal responsibility thing, and because of that, because I did not disclose I see it unfair to keep hanging the bar for me.

I can say though that as almost 2 years have gone by now, I am at a more accepting comfortable place genderwise than I was when I revealed. Once the reveal happens, It does change things for us, or at least it did for me. I entered a new arena of personal comfort of myself and an acceptance of myself. So, is it really progress or progression of the femininity itself, or merely that what was always there is now coming to light?? That is my case anyway. I am not going to say don't worry about the T- ask any of the TS and in their early journey many of them thought they would be fine with just being CDers. But then we have plenty of members here who have been at a happy place for several decades. So it is possible that Jenny will find her happy place at some point, wherever that is.

I can only say I do not envision going through transition. I cannot imagine losing "IT" and or doing things or medicating that will make IT not work as it has. While it is a welcome side effect of many TS, that right there keeps me from seriously considering HRT. I can also say that I am continuing to be more comfortable with myself when it comes to my own femininity and dressing. I have never had a thrill about it, but while I can say I do not need it more.... It is more enjoyable now than before when I do dress. I feel even more connected to that part of me than I did 2 years ago. My wife I believe picks up on this and is worried. I understand her worries. I cannot change that. I can only tell her I love her and want always to be with her.

[Maria 60]

Well welcome to the crazy life of living with a crossdresser. I apologize once a month to my wife. It is human nature to always want more. I wasn't fair to her from the first day, telling her about the dressing one week back from our honeymoon. But very surprising almost thirty years married believes we have a close relationship because of it. When I told her and we talked about it, I answered her three big questions, " I am not gay", " I have no intention of becoming a women" and " I am fine with keeping it in the closet". My children were always my number one priority, I kept things really tight and didn't want to put any unwanted stress on my children, doing what a parent should do, putting the family first and didn't believe they had to know about my hobby anyway. Well one of the promises I had a problem with, was keeping it in the closet. I wanted to feel the outdoor air, I wanted to walk on ashfalt. Once you eat steak it's hard to go back to chicken, that's the way I see it. With the kids not around as much at the beginning of this year it got very aggressive, I went out a few times fully dressed, mostly driving around and a few times in daylight. One night a dinner conversation she asked me what's going on and why the dressing was getting so aggressive, I couldn't explain these feelings. She told me that I was taking big risks every time I was walking out that door, and believed it was just a matter of time before someone sees me or something happens that's going to expose me, like a car accident or getting pulled cover by police for speeding or something. She told me if it keeps going this way maybe it would be better we tell the children so if something does happen they won't be surprised or shocked, or having to find out on the streets. Knowing she was right and almost feeling what you are feeling that my wife was always giving in, I promised her the closet was fine and now shes bending and she is breaking my promise telling me in not so many words, that if I want to keep going out to tell the kids, that wasn't the deal we made almost thirty years ago. My wife has always supported me with this, telling me she is my pocket aces in my poker hand, all I have to do is ask and not hold back anything, and with her help she wanted me to live all my fantasies and she will buy or do what ever it takes to make sure I am happy and the kids were happy before herself, that must be the life of a good mother and wife, always sacrificing. Wow at that point I realized she would really do anything for me, and without trying or without no withdraws or anything I have never walked out that door fully dressed since that day (excepted underdressing of course) and trying to keep my closet promise. She is asking me now if I am looking forward to going out dressed around the Halloween days and even asked me if I needed anything. I believe there has to be a happy medium, where both parties can win, I can tell she has been more calm since that day and I am sure if you can find that happy place for him, you will also be happy just knowing he is happy. I really feel for the girlfriends and wife's I could tell you are trying to make him happy but it seems like he never is and always wants to push more. I know how he feels and the uncontrollable urges we get. I hope I didn't bore you but I guess I tried to explain as hard as it is for you, I know just like your husband we didn't sign up for this, and I have a lot of respect for you for being by his side through this and even on this sight looking for answers to make him happier, it really shows you do care and love him very much, I know he respects you for it.

[Jenny Elwood]

Back from holiday in the sticks to find someone dug this thread out of the grave again. If anything, my need to dress has shown signs of seriously RE-gressing in the last month or so. It feels as if everything built up to the highlight that was attending the ballet en femme and since serious disinterest has struck and I only dressed once before going away to make sure no pink fog enveloped me in the Kalahari. Progression smrogression.

[Tina_gm]

progression is among the most worried about topics of our partners, and the most sought after topic of us CD's. Because of a certain disinterest at the moment, if that is regression, then at a certain point when the interest goes back up again, then would that become progression? I personally do not view my individual moments whether I have much interest in dressing or not as any type of progression or re-gression. For me, my only true sought after progression is to be comfortable with myself. To be ok with being more feminine than the average male. To be ok with the desires to dress in women's clothes. To be ok with any natural mannerisms I may have that are more typical among women than men. That is my progression, and in becoming more comfortable with it all, more may become apparent, even though I am fine with sticking to agreements I have made with my wife. I am not pushing any physical boundaries, I haven't asked to do more. But I do believe my wife sees me in a more comfortable place with it all. I am sure that can be scary enough.

[Jenny Elwood]

I suppose you are right GM. Past experience tells me so. It just feels like such a perfect opportunity to exit the 'Trans-' world. Please tell me that it is...

[Tina_gm]

Hey Jenny, I have had and still have those moments when I have the opportunity to dress yet am not in a mood to change. Almost like the desire is so minimal that laziness overcomes the desire lol. I am past a point where it ever feels wrong to dress. Early on I would have those feelings, back when I was going through all of the denial and repression. It never feels wrong now, but sometimes I just could care less about dressing. Sometimes I am in just a more masculine state of mind I suppose so there is no urge or desire really when a more masculine state of mind is occurring. I don't fight either the masculine or the feminine (I used to fight the feminine big time)

If it went away and never came back, I would be grateful for sure. One big headache gone from my life. But I know I can't fight it, it is a losing battle. A BIG waste of energy and when losing this battle can bring on a depressed state of mind as well. If you are not feeling it, don't stress it, just go with it. When and if the fem side comes back, don't stress that either.

[docrobbysherry]

Back to Lidea and her OP? It's NOT just about progression. It's about him stifling his urges, whatever level they r at, to please u. And, he may feel guilty about dressing as well. Many of us do.

For some of us, dressing is like an addiction. Like alcoholics, if we r not allowed to drink at home, we'll sneak out to the garage, take a drive, or go somewhere where folks r sympathetic to our urges. I'm not saying your SO is like that. Just reminding u that to keep discussing this issue is very important. And, while u may feel you're, "giving in"? He may feel he's holding himself back for u!

If u quit talking about it, that's when he may begin doing it in secret. A much worse situation than u have now. When u can't trust your partner, the outcome is usually not good. I think seeing an experienced counselor is a good suggestion!

[Tinkerbell-GG]

Progression smrogression.

Good to hear there's no smrogression on the horizon :)

But please tell me the 'sticks' didn't involve an Ebola hot zone??!!

[Donnagirl]

Jenny & Lidea,

Guys you are in for a rollercoaster ride, one that keeps presenting boundaries then overstepping them. So many time now I've thought this is it, this is the plateau that I'll settle on and life will just carry us by and it'll be all sunshine and lollypops... Having just spent near on a week in girl mode, the step back has been hard... I'm stupidly bottling up emotions, already losing it quite badly once...

I used to be happy behind the bedroom door, then in the house while alone, then in front of the wife and sons, then out in public.... Now I need the stimulus that the public environ provides... I will not use the term 'never' any more. Too many times I've left the 'never' in my wake.

All I can say is work together, talk, negotiate and love what life brings.... I doubt that 'T' is in my future, but.... I am booking another visit to the psych though...

Boy this screws with us...

[devida]

I'm going to take issue with the basic idea that there is some kind of inevitable progression from never wearing women's clothes or questioning one's gender identity assigned at birth at the beginning to full transition and sexual reassignment surgery at the other. Human beings love to tell stories. It is a fundamental characteristic of being human, part of our evolutionarily developed pattern recognition. The Transgender Story is a big, thrilling, important and adventurous story indeed. But it is a story. Very few individuals follow the full arc of the story from beginning to end. Most people discover, after the initial thrill of living the adventure subsides a bit, that the story is, in fact, quite a bit less exciting than the really interesting experience of discovering just how flexible gender identity actually is, and how much personal power and gratification we get from stretching our ideas of ourselves. This stretching gives many of us what we might not have had before, a sense of personal freedom and agency that we did not consider possible because it transgressed what seemed like a rock hard social rule - wearing another gender's clothes.

I would suggest that it is this sense of personal freedom, this realization that we can make ourselves happy by allowing ourselves to present ourselves the way that we actually feel that is the thrill of being transgender or of cross dressing.

Do we have to cross gender lines more and more to feel this sense of freedom and personal power? Maybe but not necessarily. Cross dressing does not have to be defined as a narcotic drug even if some people do show tolerance and withdrawal and even if wearing another gender's clothes is vaguely similar on a biochemical level because both drugs and cross dressing give us a little dopamine squirt. This kind of reductive thinking that simplifies human beings as merely biological machines is popular but inaccurate. I would argue that most people who have been involved in this type of gender exploration reach a point where they know what makes them happy. They simply don't need more. They don't act like drug addicts needing a bigger and bigger fix.

But defining gender exploration as a progression may actually increase the possibility that people will follow a script rather than follow their happiness. People may think, because the transgender story is so compelling, that maybe more and more freedom to cross dress, with transition looming in the future, is inevitable. I think there is a real danger in simplifying the complexities of life to a television drama.

People are much more interesting, strange and inventive than simple plot lines would suggest.

The personal stories of the people who post on this board are incredibly diverse. Despite the many posts from cross dressers and their spouses worrying about an inevitable progression to full transition I simply don't see this as that common in this forum. I see what I see everywhere in life, people having different lives, living, experimenting with and discarding different stories, learning to be happy or collapsing in misery, achieving what they want, or not, becoming numb or becoming fulfilled. I just see human beings. I don't see people acting out a script.

[MarisaRose.]

Devida, Amen to that!!! couldn't have said it any better...

[UNDERDRESSER]

This is not specifically aimed at Jenny and Lidea, or any particular person or couple, just a general observation.

The problem with not knowing when you married, or uncertainy over how far it will go, and in what direction, is, IMO, often a problem caused by repression. I'm certain many men (they have said so on this forum) don't understand this thing, don't know where it came from, don't understand how much power it has, fear it, are disgusted by it, revolted by what it can make them do...you get the picture. Not all of us, and hardly any have ALL those feelings, but often at least some are there.

So, they try to bury it, try to ignore it. Then, you, (the wife) find out. You try to understand, try to help, (at least those of you who can) so, there becomes a chance to explore, to try to relax a little, see what this feels like, try to dig out the roots, whatever. Once those layers of repression start to come off, there can be a rebound from that compressed state. Caution is needed at this point, on both sides. Honesty between you, and to ones self is necessary, but can be uncomfortable, even painful. It's difficult, it's not always easy to do self analysis.

I didn't know why, I still don't know, but am starting to see some of it. I didn’t even think about why, for the most part before I told my SO.

I thought I would eventually want to try dressing fully, and going out as a believable woman, why? Don't ask me, it just seemed that way. Now, that's receding, though it is on my agenda for an experiment in the future. I am getting used to going out in a skirt, as a man. I like it, it feels right, it's about showing facets of myself that most would call feminine, but I think is something all men (and the women around) can benefit from us showing. So, progression? Yes, I guess, but I tend to think of it as exploration and discovery. I now feel free to actually find, and be, who and what I am. Better for all in the long run.

Everybody should be free to be open as to who we are, without fear of discrimination. We aren't anywhere near that yet, but, slowly, in small areas, it's happening. If your partner is not who you thought you married, that can be unfortunate, but pretending it isn't the situation isn't going to help them, and probably not you either in the long run. Find out between you who you both are, find out if you can still live with that, if not, well, your choice how you deal with it. Sticking your head in the sand isn't recommended.

Again, not aimed at any one in particular, a general comment, my 2 cents only, I am not a therapist, your mileage may vary.

[Wildaboutheels]

Group Think is inevitable for almost all if they hang out at certain places with prevalent attitudes long enough. These very Forums are full of such individuals who by their own admissions have "come farther" than they ever dreamed they would. Some even managed to "PROGRESS" themselves right into divorce. The stories ARE here in these Forums. Some are big enough to admit succumbing to GT.

The simple FACT is that CDing is not in the same category as eating, drinking, sleeping and breathing. For most of the CDers on the planet. Even real GGs face limits on their own "presentation" almost daily if they work outside the home.

[Tina_gm]

Good points made about the repression aspect U.D. That can definitely ring true for me to some extent. Before the reveal, I did not shave my legs or underarms. My nails were very short. I tried always to never show any femininity. So to my wife, those things are progression. But not on the inside they aren't, to me. While many of us, myself included did conceal a major part of our gender identity or difference, I am also willing to bet that for most of us, we are not complete frauds either. I still like and do all of what I did when I dated, became engaged and married my wife. None of what we did leading up to the point of marriage, all of the special moments were in any way a fraud. It was and is who I am and how I felt. I wouldn't change a thing as far as how I was in those moments (dressed as and just being the ordinary guy) One thing I think we as CD's and for the GG's in a relationship and or marriage should remember is to remember those moments, they are and were real. For most of us, we still are that man you married. We can all get so caught up in the CDing now, god is it easy to do once it comes out. Not that we should ever diminiish ourselves, or go back deep into the closet... but to remember all facets of life, and how our partners have made us so happy in the past, before CDing became a part of the relationship.

[lingerieLiz]

Lidea I understand that there are a lot of questions and concerns. I've long ago reached a plateau which I'm happy with and my wife accepts. It doesn't mean my level or anyone else's will work for you or your SO that is between the two of you.

[NicoleScott]

So how can a GG/SO ever know if the progression is honestly unintentional/unpredictable or if she's being suckered into the real goal by getting her to accept a moving target in baby steps?

[Tina_gm]

Hopefully Nicole if a GG S/O has paid attention to her partner, she will know if they are being honest or not when something "changes" Of course, for so many of us a life of hiding and deceit we can become quite good at all that, but those who really love us, pay close attention to detail, we really can't hide whatever truth there is. In some ways, I think our partners want to believe what they have been told or shown. By the time I revealed, I had basically revealed. I hadn't come out and said it... but the clues were getting pretty strong. then I said it, and she was all but shocked. She hardly should have been by that point.

[MatildaJ.]

if a GG S/O has paid attention to her partner, she will know... we really can't hide whatever truth there is.

I used to feel that way. I learned otherwise. I don't think it's reasonable to think we can see through the lies.

[ReineD]

So how can a GG/SO ever know if the progression is honestly unintentional/unpredictable or if she's being suckered into the real goal by getting her to accept a moving target in baby steps?

By reading lots of threads here, talking to people, and developing a sense for the natural CD progression and the real differences between CD and TS. The mistake I think that many GGs make (and their husbands who are learning to spread their wings), is adopting a belief that if a person wants to realistically look like a woman and go out in the mainstream that way, that they might be TS and would be happy actually living full time as a woman.

Davida explains this well in post #47.

[Jenny Elwood]

Some very insightful thoughts there Devida. I agree no hard, fast rule can be applied to everyone. I'll speak for myself in saying that I'm experiencing a distinct disinterest in dressing at the moment. I've done the full transformation thing now (something I've always wanted to do) and for some reason it just doesn't seem to have the appeal it once held. It was great fun going out with my wife and mom (to the ballet) and getting affirmation that I looked pretty (from my mom!). Since then it just feels as if anything else will be a let-down and by this I'm not saying it has to be this "high" or nothing. I just lack the interest to overcome my laziness in dressing. It feels like too much of an effort and it will feel like that in going to some similar event as well. I just cannot be bothered at this stage.

If anything this has dispelled any thoughts I've had of being TS (yes I've had my fair share). I cannot imagine being a woman full-time. I'd go nuts!

Now I know this thing comes and goes and will probably envelope me in a haze of pink fog of epic proportions again in future, but for now, I'm just taking it day by day. I can't believe this is the same thing I could not get out of my head two months ago. I'm talking 4 times a minute here. Now it's like 4 times a day and some days none at all!

P.S. I am responding to this thread since I'm not too sure my wife will be seen here again (The Forum) anytime soon. I think she is dealing with her own set of disinterest. (Maybe I should make a post that will ruffle her feathers again to pull her out of her shell! :eek:) So thank you to everyone who has taken the time to respond, it has been very insightful.

[sfwarbonnet]

I'm going to take issue with the basic idea that there is some kind of inevitable progression from never wearing women's clothes or questioning one's gender identity assigned at birth at the beginning to full transition and sexual reassignment surgery at the other… Very few individuals follow the full arc of the story from beginning to end. Most people discover, after the initial thrill of living the adventure subsides a bit, that the story is, in fact, quite a bit less exciting than the really interesting experience of discovering just how flexible gender identity actually is, and how much personal power and gratification we get from stretching our ideas of ourselves. This stretching gives many of us what we might not have had before, a sense of personal freedom and agency that we did not consider possible because it transgressed what seemed like a rock hard social rule - wearing another gender's clothes...

I agree, progressing to full transition is not inevitable, in fact, retaining male functionality may be desirable. Wearing women’s clothes is often simply practical.