Not your average passing thread...

[Candice Mae]

Just some thoughts I had on the drive home today, that I made in to a question.

I know its not the goal of every CDer on here, but I would say it is the goal of the majority of the dressers on here to pass as a woman or at least blend. You all want to obtain this ability to pass but yet you don't want to present as a woman full time. The closer or better you get at passing the less you look like what society considers a man. Why go through all the trouble and effort to pass when it has no real gain to your life, and in the end you look like a feminine man and try and hide it from family, friends, and the general public?

[CynthiaD]

The changes you make to look passable don't have to be permanent. Often it's just a matter of the right wig or the right makeup.

[Paula_56]

In the transgender community, the use of the terms “pass” or “passing” is controversial.

What’s ironic is that we all use it in one form or another, but camouflage it with politically correct language. What’s even more interesting is if you ever go to Reddit’s Transpassing or any one of the other related sub Reddits you would discover that the younger members of our community didn’t get the memo and talk about passing all day long.

I prefer to use the phrase “present as a woman." If I am looking for a comment, I’ll ask how was my presentation. With all that being said, we all have some very definite opinions about the issue. Before you click the comment link below, let me say a few things first.

What made the subject very clear and even defined for me the why we do this was something my wife said to me a few weeks ago. Having recently traded in her shoulder length hair for a pixie cut, she was still getting comfortable with such short hair. While we were getting ready for a Saturday morning of fellowship and brush-cutting at the church picnic grove, she put on blue jeans and a flannel shirt.

One look in the mirror brought about a shriek. Not expecting this response, I looked over and asked, “What’s the matter, honey?”

“Oh my gosh, I look like a man!” she blustered as she headed for her closet.

After 29 years of marriage, I came back with a practiced response that I learned before my first anniversary, “Sweetheart, you look beautiful.”

As she positioned herself in front of the mirror, this time in a jean skirt and scalloped linen top, she breathed a sigh of relief, “There, I at least want the people to know that I am a woman!”

Wow, Bam, Bazinga! Yes read it again ladies: “There, I at least want the people to know that I am a woman!”

Transgender women just want the human race to know that we are women!

The hair, the makeup, clothes, lingerie, voice lessons, and of course, shoes are all gestures to the world that we are women. Just like the jean skirt and scalloped top that was nowhere near as practical for clearing brush that morning, they served a vital purpose for my wife; they signaled the world that she was a woman and validated her identity. It brought her appearance more in line with who she felt she was.

Just like the cowboy who wears his hat, jeans and boots in the airport, he is saying to the world, "These clothes reflect who I am, a culture that I belong to, a philosophy that I adhere too, and a vocation that I perform."

The banker, the rocker, and the professor --- they all send a message with their clothes.
That is the reason we do this --- we want people to know who we are. That deep down, under the five o'clock shadow and receding hairline, we all have to some varying extent the hearts and souls of feminine beings.

That’s why we so often ask about passing, presenting or how do I look? It is the reason why in the transgender community, we take more pictures than most tourists. Ever notice that you are the only person at the family reunion that knows exactly how to work the self-timer on the camera! We want acknowledgement, we are sending radio waves out into the Universe and listening, searching, longing to know if we are being heard.

With that in mind, instead of asking “Do I pass?”

Let’s try asking, "Did you get my message?"

"Yes, Ma'am."

[Emi_]

I do it because it is satisfying to me. Other peoples opinions about what I look like don't mean a hang to me.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Candice, When I dress I like to be able to see a lady in the mirror looking back with a lovely smile.

[Anna H]

Me personally...I'm never been happy with being male. I cringe inside
even referring to myself as such.

But, what are the alternatives. I'm never going to be the opposite.
It's not possible (for me).

What i can do (and very happily!) is try to appear as either/or.

The point is that if i'm mistaken for female...and it happens
fairly often...then it makes me happy for some odd reason. I think
it's because I was momentarily viewed as *not* the male that i am.

Why that matters to me is that it was an honest mistake. I didn't
fool anyone by dressing up a certain way or with certain goals in
mind.

I can't pass enough to be seen as female always, but even if I did
dress with that purpose in mind, I'd fail much more easily. It'd
be very clear that I was a CD...and the "ma'am's" that I may get
are just someone saying "yeah...i'll be polite and go along with
ya darling!...and when you're out the door we'll all have a good
laugh".

I think that a real GD problem makes it a bit different from those
who happily switch back & forth between guy and girl modes. The
fact that i get truly and honestly mistaken for female sometimes
makes me happy that i'm so easily separated from the "guy" that
I really am.

I've always been uncomfortable with being male. I couldn't
change that well enough to ever be satisfied. I do the most
reasonable thing I can...just try to be somewhere in the middle.
They don't get confrontational if it's their own mistake. But
if I try to fool them...who knows.

I'm pretty much comfortable, happy and in a good mood always.
I do gain something from it. :)

[Kate Simmons]

I have my own "standards of excellence" when it comes to dressing, so I don't feel I have to comply with someone else's or pass muster according to their ideas.:)

[Eringirl]

Hi Candice,
For me, and I suspect other women here (yes, women), it is a bit complicated. I would like to present as a woman 24/7, but family and other issues preclude that at this time. However, when I do "dress", it is to become on the exterior what I am on the interior. To pass as a woman doing everyday, mundane things, such as groceries, errands, work etc, is what I strive for. For me, it is not about standing out, but a statement on "just being". When I see Erin in the mirror, my brain goes into a state of equilibrium, with the external now matching the internal.

When I am not presenting as Erin, I still have cues to help me out, such as long nails with clear polish, polish on my toes, under dressings, shaved legs and chest, you get the picture. So, at the very least, when I am at work, I look down at the keyboard and see my hands and nails and that is enough to remind my brain that I am Erin and that gets me through until I can fully transform. But I still need to fully present, to get that full picture in my brain and lock it in. Just as someone doesn't choose to be gay, I didn't chose to be who or how I am, I just am, and this is what makes me, I think a better husbands and father as I am not depressed or angry all the time as I was pre Erin, and better able to concentrate on making those that matter to me happy.

So as I mentioned, for me, it is a little bit complicated.

Thanks for listening.

Erin

[Adriana Moretti]

I dont care about passing....just being the best me that I can .....and thats a boy in a dress....wait i hate dresses.....a guy in a skirt.....

[Lena]

Good points and I assume you are speaking from experience? The other day, my wife and I were at Lowes. A family went by that caught our eyes. There was a woman, a child and a ? Still to this day, we couldn't decide if it was a MTF or FTM or just a totally effeminate guy. There was slight facial hair, slender build, feminine clothing and shaved legs.


It was a wake up call because, I don't want to be that. (Not because it's bad, it just brings too much attention.)

My problem with hormones really screws with me somedays. Sometimes, I feel male and other times, not so much. I've always been attracted to and wore women's clothing in the closet but when stuff gets out of wack, it goes to a whole new level. I'm now on pills to prevent the creation of estrogen but when I forget to take the pills, things change including breast changes.

Anyway, I've rambled on for far too long to say "I get what you're saying. "

[LelaK]

Why go through all the trouble and effort to pass when it has no real gain to your life, and in the end you look like a feminine man []?

I don't try to pass. I want my appearance to please me. I would try to greatly improve my appearance in my own eyes if there were a fairly cheap and easy way to do it. For now I need to concentrate on finding a home.

[Rachael Leigh]

Candice I agree and it's made me wonder many times what is the point. So my goals now are looking my best when I do pictures, which until I own a wig again I won't do those for a bit. However some things I do are just because I like it shaving my body hair and that stuff not to look like a women but just to be me but yet I do still tend to hide that from family. So for me what is the point, I guess I still don't know but I seem happier when I'm dressing on a regular basis

[Felicia Dee]

If the end goal is to pass or blend as a woman and therefore utterly shed the male self for whatever reason a person chooses to do that -- even if only occasionally... if it allows that person an opportunity to tap into this other aspect of themselves that they normally cannot in the male personae, wouldn't that be enough of a "real gain to your life" to continue such an activity???

I think so.

[kimdl93]

Your question states that there is no real gain. That is the flaw in the logic, that behavior is necessarily for gain or profit, beyond self satisfaction. The second is that one must hide if successful. So do, some don't.

[TinaZ]

Lots of wonderful answers here. Paula's response (post #3) is particularly wise. Thanks, everyone!

I'll agree with those who say dressing itself is not a means to an end for me. For instance, today I tried a new technique with eye shadow and as I was doing so, I mindfully told myself to relish the moment. I was learning a new, womanly thing. I appreciate that unique opportunity. While going out and blending in would be great, it might never be in my cards. But I still celebrate my time as Tina regardless. Hope that made sense.

[Teresa]

Candice,
I'm finding most of the time that the clothes satisfy my inner feelings, I'm now treating wig and make up as a special treat if I decide to venture out. I feel that if I want to pass I can, if I choose to make the effort !
So am I just content to be a guy in a dress or just doing what a day to day housewife would do ? All I know is it's the least stressful way I have at the moment with the level of acceptance I have.

[natcrys]

I would say.. being satisfied with how I present myself and having fun doing what I do, whether I am going or staying in, is the most important thing for me. :)

So it depends on what you exactly mean by "to gain".

Also, I have had my hair long for about 6 years now.. and nobody's ever thought of me as feminine because of that. :p

The rest of what I do to transform into Tassia is non-permanent. And even the hair can be cut off! (Yikes, that sounded scary!)

[Marcelle]

Hi Candice. I am not sure if there has to be an end state for me. In my case is about coexistence and getting there is all part of the journey. I will never, never, never pass in a million years regardless of what steps I take non permanent (make-up, wig) and permanent (laser hair removal). I can blend to a certain degree but I never survive first contact. When I dress as a guy I look like a guy even with 60 percent of my beard gone, body shaved and eyebrows thinned. I don't believe you have to present as a woman full time as a marker of endgame . . . we all have goals and they are not the same. For me it is about balance between boy and girl . . . if I wanted to be girl full time then I would be more likely TS vice CD . . . just saying.

What do I gain? Self satisfaction, the ability to enjoy life to its fullest and the love of a great woman (my wife).

Hugs

Isha

[noeleena]

Hi,

See if i can get this right,

as said , I wont people to know im a woman . so that was about clothes and what your S O was wearing or in this case she changed hers ,

The ? i have does your S O look like a man or is this a perception she had when looking in the mirror ,

Do those at the meeting do they know her as a person , if so then what makes this difference ,of, i look like a male , how is she accepted as a normal female,

for my self because im well known im accepted as female and as a woman , a good number of reasons for that yet i know i dont look female enough to even think i,m good enough to look like a female ,

............ i wonder then how your S O would see me then.........


Would your S O be interested in answering my > ? that would be lovely if she would,

...noeleena...

[charlenesomeone]

I do it because it is satisfying to me. Other peoples opinions about what I look like don't mean a hang to me.

You said it perfect girl!!

[cdmorganashley]

i don't care to stand out to the point of drawing unwanted attention but beyond that i just desire to be able to be myself and not feel embarrassed or ashamed about it and that means being more and more fem more and more of the time... i figure there will be times i will want to look one way or another but as for a fixation on passing i don't think like that as i have a man's body and i am not looking at taking hormones that could hurt my health or having radical surgery which i don't have the money for and don't feel would be great for my health either... still i think i can take on an unconventionally fem male look that could be quite attractive if i keep working on it... still what is passable to one is not always passable to another so i am much more for finding a look that makes you feel yourself and happy about how you look and is not dependent upon the judgments of others--even though in reality it is always nice to be told you look good haha--i always think confidence looks good whatever you have on and even however your body looks -- so chew on that lol

[Jenniferathome]

Your question states that there is no real gain. That is the flaw in the logic, that behavior is necessarily for gain or profit, beyond self satisfaction. ....

THIS! I've often written that cross dressing and blending in is like screaming at the top of your lungs, "This is me!"... but without a sound. I think an additional flaw in your thinking is that one "becomes" a feminized man.

[maya1love]

What's wrong with looking like a feminine man? If that is what you are inside, why not show the world what you are?

[Cheryl T]

Firstly, "passing" is something that relatively few of us can ever hope to do. There are just so many "tells" that for most it's impractical to deceive yourself that you "pass" when you don't.
The majority try to "blend" in and be accepted as a woman in daily activities.
As to feminizing to look more womanly, there are many things that can be done without making physical changes and looking like Bruce Jenner and drawing the speculation that goes with it. Wigs, makeup techniques, proper padding or cinching, etc all can produce a very feminine appearance without any of it being permanent.

[Rhonda Jean]

I think Candice makes a good "food for thought" point. For simplicity, let's look at just one aspect of our lives. Our jobs. Many of us work in jobs where a feminine appearance would be a deterrent to upward movement in the company, if not threaten our employment prospects all together. Yet at the same time we may constantly push the envelope, trying to find that spot where we've enhanced our passability while not threatening our employment "too much".

Looking at the Boy Mode vs. Girl Mode pics, some can pull off looking completely male and absolutely transform into beautiful women. That is impressive! Most of us seek some middle ground. But what we see in the mirror as middle ground is probably not middle ground at all to the rest of the world. Lots of us get our brows done, have long hair, color our hair, keep our nails long, shave our bodies, have pierced ears. Especially in combination, that's a lot. Some of us try to justify it by telling ourselves that lots of guys wax their eyebrows or whatever, and that's true. It's when they start adding up that it gets more and more obvious. Add to that that you may choose your male clothes a little differently, too. Maybe even when your not in fem mode you wear short shorts and fem styled tops, bigger earrings, or nail polish. You tell yourself you're not crossdressing, but the world sees it differently.

I think it's safe to say that we all put a whole lot of effort into a small part of our lives, and that part of our lives is counterproductive to our "real" life. I'm certainly guilty of that.

[Stephanie47]

One of the goal I set for myself had to do with weight gain. Years ago the clerk at the Department of Motor Vehicles asked me if I wanted to change the weight shown on my driver's license (175). I fessed up to 215. I decided to lose weight. I dropped to 200-205. Diagnosed with diabetes (low end of the scale). Diet and more exercise. Now 190. Yes, my original goal was to fit into a smaller size that has a better selection of dresses. I did drop to 185, but, my male body did not feel comfortable. So, it's 190 pounds. I will never achieve any semblance of looking like a natural woman of my dreams. But, I feel comfortable with my image. I can do nothing with my aged face, whether I am a woman or a man.

Women come is all shapes and sizes. Be your healthy you first. Then go shopping for a dress.

[Debra Russell]

....doesn't need an explanation .... because I can................Debra

[carhill2mn]

Paula, thank you for your wonderful post. You accurately described how many of us feel. There are likely many on this forum who are not as concerned about being accepted as a woman, which is also fine.

[Michelle colson]

For me blending is more about not being noticed or harassed than fooling the general public. I think if I could just throw on a dress and heels and go shopping without anyone thinking twice about it I would. I usually don't wear a wig or make up when dressing at home although I do usually wear forms and pads though. There are times however I feel the need to make the full transition and wear a wig and make up even though I'm not planning on leaving the house.
As for bodily changes, I have lost weight, shave my face, chest and trim my arm hair, that's all. I guess I'm just comfortable as a male but have a strong desire to express my female side from time to time.

[Bria]

When I get in my race car and go out on the race track I go out there to do the best job of driving the car that I can. Will I be mistaken for the next Jeff Gordon, not on a bet! What do I gain, personal satisfaction, a trophy and a smaller bank account!

When I dress up I do that to the best of my ability, will I be mistaken for a GG, not on a bet. What do I gain, personal satisfaction (no trophies here), and a smaller bank account.

Both activities make me feel good, I get to interact with others who share an interest in the activity, and make friends. This sounds like positives to me. And also I get to forget about every thing else in my life for a few hours!!

Hugs, Bria

[Ressie]

There are only a few steps in emulating a woman that can't be quickly reversed that would manifest an effeminate appearance. Eyebrow plucking would probably be the most noticable, along with other hair removal. I don't even go out dressed, so shaping the eyebrows isn't something I feel compelled to do. My legs are practically hairless naturally, so I think people are used to seeing that. If they feel I'm more fem than other guys, I don't really care.

What would I gain by presenting as a woman full time? I'm not a lifestye crossdresser or TS.

[Tracy Hazel Lee]

Like others have already mentioned, when I dress, I'm not putting all this effort in to please anyone but myself. I am my own worst critic, and when I recognize that something can be improved, I strive to do exactly that. I am fully aware that no matter how good I think I look, somebody will read me. So while 'passing' is something that I would like to achieve, I go into it knowing that it will never be 100% of the time. And I'm fine with that, knowing that I did (or do) the best I can. I tend to do everything (at least anything that I have a strong interest in) to the best of my ability. Dressing is most definitely one of those things. Even though I have been doing this for around 15 years now, and most of the big steps have already happened, I still find myself on this never ending quest to improve.

Here are some of the things that I noticed made noticeable differences to my appearance (I'll try my best to list them chronologically)

1. Shaved my moustache - HUGE change. Obvious, yes. But I did it during a time in my life where NOBODY ever saw without a moustache. The most ironic thing about this change, was that it happened because of my first ever head-to-toe dressing experience. And it was for a halloween party. And it was an easy excuse to use, I didn't want it to grow back because I thought I looked significantly better without it. Nobody thought it was weird at all.

2. Stopped biting my nails - small change. Completely cold turkey. I just said to myself one day...STOP. And for whatever reason, it stuck. And I have never started again. In fact, I couldn't even bring myself to bite them now, they are so long (comparatively to when they were disgustingly short) that biting them now would probably cause pain.

3. Starting shaving my legs and armpit hair - Moderate change. No more opaque tights under sheer hose...Since my SO already knew of my hobby, she initially had some beef with it, but now it doesn't bother her at all. Not so much the look, but the feel and comfort improvement was totally worth it.

4. Starting plucking my eyebrows - HUGE change. This one took many months to pull off. At least 6 or months. Each time I would progressively take a bit more off, until they reached the size and shape they are now. This change was so slow, that nobody said a word. (at least not to me). This was very significant in improving the appearance of my face.

5. Hip pads - Huge change. Nothing to really say here. This one is also pretty obvious. Clothing is filled out much closer to actual female dimensions. Still not perfect in my opinion, because I can't change the width of my shoulders or the size of my upper arms, but a huge improvement. I'm a small-ish guy to begin with, so my overall dimensions kind of work for me in this regard. Just need a bit longer and thicker legs...especially my thighs...that would be nice.

6. Got other ear pierced - small change, but a satisfying one. Nobody thought it was weird either. It really means nothing these days for a guy to have both ears pierced.

7. Breast forms - small change. I say small change because I already had a decent looking solution, but the forms just make it so much nicer feeling.

8. Body shaper - moderate change. Again, not so much an appearance improvement, but it did help smooth out my hip pads. So it definitely was an improvment. I don't wear it for the compression abilities. I usually buy a size bigger than I need because I just want it to hold my pads in place without being too tight.

9. Butt pads - moderate change. These, helped give me more 'booty' when viewed from the side.

10. Colored contacts - HUGE change. Changing your eye color really changes how you look. I almost never dress without them mow. Correction, I don't dress without them now.

11. NuBra - moderate change. I use it occasionally to help create a small amount of cleavage (if the dress or top is cut low enough to actually show something). It's better than nothing, but since I don't have a lot of excess skin to create the cleavage with, the difference is small. But still enough to notice. Shading helps here too.

Other changes that have happened over time were mostly tweaks to my makeup routine. Finding better concealer/foundation colors, becoming adept with liquid liner, learning how to contour, figuring out a good lip shape and size, just generally trying new techniques. Always searching for new ways to extract more 'girl' out of my face.

I recently went on a search for a couple pairs of clear lens glasses (I hope I don't offend anyone who hates wearing glasses and wonders why in the hell anyone would choose to wear them when they don't need them). Glasses are very much considered a fashion item these days thanks to the endless styles of frames available, and not uncommon for people to wear them strictly for the look. I've tried other clear versions in the past, but never found them to improve my look (I think they were too small). Speaking of which, contouring actually helps with wearing glasses, especially sunglasses. The most recent ones I got this time are a pair of over-sized frame ones, and a pair of cat-eye ones. I think they'll look good. I ordered them last week...they haven't arrived yet. I'll be sure to post a couple of pics, with and without....See what kind of feedback I get.

It never stops....ever.

[DaphneMiller]

I'm enjoying this very thoughtful thread.

And to follow on frm Tracy's thoughts, I once read that crosdressing is like a sport: you always want to beat your previous achievement or record. In our case it isn't speed or distance, but it's how good we appear, or where go.

Daphne