Tipping point

[Katie Russell]

I have read with interest a number of posts by GGs about how far they will allow their SO to go when dressing.

It seems that some GGs are OK with underdressing but no skirts, heels etc. Whilst other are happy with normal female attire but draw the line at wigs, make up and forms. Again others are happy to allow their SO to present as a female with the full works and will even participate.

It seems to me that at some point a CD changes from male to female in the eyes of some GGs. The tipping point. After which some GGs feel uncomfortable which I can understand.

Do you agree with my observations or do you think there are other reasons why GGs will allow their SO to go so far but no further.

I am interested to hear from both GGs and CDs as to why they think these boundaries exist.

Katie

[Kate Simmons]

I think it may depend upon the particular couple and what they agree on. If folks are in a relationship, it's usually about both of them, not just one.:)

[Teresa]

Katie there are 101 reasons why our partners have different acceptance levels. Family attitudes and background , fear of what family and children might think. The obvious ones to wives are is he gay ? does he want to be a woman ? why does he need to dress at all ?
Also some women know and like the sexiness of clothes and shoes and understand why her husband may have a need to do it ! Others just have the attitude that men are men, and don't wear womens clothes.

I had two GFs that went along with CDing but my wife is stuggling to understand and accept it ! It may be a tipping point or staying in their comfort zone, most of us don't want to hurt anyone, we are still the man underneath. Women don't have the thread in their brains so they will never fully understand because they will never experience the feeling we get from dressing.

[Jenny Elwood]

My wife takes a bit of a contrarian view on this. She would rather not have me dressing at all, but seeing as we've come to some sort of agreement, and I now get to dress with her, the rules are: She'd rather see me completely transformed. Even taking the wig off for a while, if necessary to adjust something or whatever, will normally find her turning her head away. She prefers not seeing me just in underwear before the outer clothes go on as well. She says seeing me that way helps her to only think of me as someone else - a friend. She doesn't get this picture of her husband in a dress, you know in a state somewhere in-between. I respect her wishes on this, and to be honest it is great for me, since I get to dress fully, which I prefer. :)

[Claire Cook]

I totally agree with Kate's as usual insightful response. It depends so much on the two individuals involved.

[Katie Russell]

Hi

If you accept that a GG understand her SOs need to dress, what I was really trying to understand why a GG would accept to a certain level. What is it about wigs, make up and forms that is a big no-no for some GGs. Is it the fact that somehow they lose the male identity as the presentation is too female. I have read plenty of 'little steps' threads. Why is it that some GGs can accept the full works after a period of time? Are they able to still see the man despite the presentation? Is it just familiarity?

I just thought it would be helpful for CDs to understand the fears of their SO.

Katie

[Claire Cook]

Katie, I think this really comes down to the individuals involved. Perhaps some GG's can weigh in here with their perspectives on this?

[Lidea]

Hi
What Jenny said is true. If he does the forms and padding etc, I prefer to see him fully dressed and 'transformed', so that I can convince myself it is not my husband.

BUT...
I have the suspicion that it has all to do with the forms and padding....
Because the padding and forms put him in another 'gender'. Isha and some others claim it is only clothes and the person inside is still the same...
If it were only clothes, I could have managed it (the CD thing) easier, I think.
But when my husband puts on padding and bras and corsettes (any body alteration things), to me it shows a desire to become a woman. Then it is not just about the clothes anymore.

So when he does the body alteration thing, I do not want to think of him anymore as my husband, but rather a friend that came by.

So basically in short.... no body alteration thingies, then I am fine with seeing him in the clothes. But change the body, then rather show me the complete new person.

[Tinkerbell-GG]

Speaking only from my perspective, I really dislike the female form sexually. I'm ridiculously heterosexual. So the guy in a dress is far more acceptable to me than the guy in a wig, make up and forms etc as my libido shuts down around the latter. My H is the latter, for the record, and can't limit the level he dresses (only how often, which is occasional) so this is why DADT works for us. Though, I prefer to call it 'don't ask, don't show' as we talk about everything these days!

I guess sexual attraction is just very important to me in marriage. I can't compartmentalise his two sides into 'lover' and ' friend' - it's the whole package or nothing for me and if I started seeing my H as a girlfriend, even just temporarily, the marriage wouldn't last very long. I have many girlfriends already and only one husband. If my H wants me to see him as 'one of the girls' then I'll definitely need a spare husband!

Is that even legal?? :)

[Jenny Elwood]

If my H wants me to see him as 'one of the girls' then I'll definitely need a spare husband!

Is that even legal?? :)

In my country it seemingly is. On last count the president had six wives... or was that seven? Don't know if it works the other way round though.

To answer your points Tink', my wife doesn't have to like the female form sexually. Jenny has never, nor will ever go down the hallway to the bedroom. That's J...'s territory and judging from her response to my Boy vs Girl picture it seems my wife still finds him attractive.

[Kate Simmons]

Funny, I was just going to suggest talking to Tinkerbell GG for her input. The thing I like about Tink is that you always know where she stands as she tells it how she feels. :)

[Teresa]

Katie you only have to look at Lidea's and Tinkerbell's answer to see the differing viewpoint !
I would still say that fully dressed most wives would think their man had gone, I guess to some that's too scary to think about ! How much further does he want to go ?

[Katie Russell]

Teresa from reading both Lidea's and Tinkerbell's answers they do share something in common. Both of them reach a tipping point when their SO becomes too feminine. Lidea when her SO alters his body and Tinkerbell when her SO puts on the wig, make up and forms for the same reason.

In both cases the sexual desire is lost as they are both heterosexual women. There are a lot of post where 'never in the bedroom is a strong theme'.

I agree that everyone is different but it does seem the point where he becomes she that causes the most problems.

I have thought a lot about it being only clothes and the person inside is the same. I am the same person inside but the clothes are very symbolic. I get the impression that most CDers seem to dress in skirts / dresses, hose and heels (unless presenting full time or wanting to blend in public) which are very gender specific. Equally if you asked a GG to dress up to feel her sexiest she would probably wear the same type of outfit. I think the clothes have a strong sexual connection, they are only clothes but it is what they stand for that causes the angst.

Katie

[mechamoose]

I'm lucky in that my wife not only 'lets' me dress in skirts & frills, she *likes* it. She gives me feedback on what looks good and what doesn't. She:"I have had my whole life to work these things out, let me help you!"

Now that I have more experience, she asks *me* for fashion advice. I *love* my wife/husband, and I know she loves her husband/wife!

It can certainly work out, you just have to find the right balance.

- MM

[MatildaJ.]

To me, the tipping point comes when he seems to have a new persona. I think I would be just as perturbed if he dressed up as a cave man. Would you be comfortable if your SO wore a witch costume, with wig and tall hat, around the house?

But I don't limit his freedom; I just don't feel like spending much time with "her," so I'll go to a different part of the house.

[ClosetED]

The tipping point is based on the GG's understanding of why the TG person is putting on the various feminine paraphernalia, and what that means to them. So it is very individualized. If the appearance of an enlarged chest in front make a person a female to the GG, then that may be the tipping point. Others would see it as the husband wanting to appear as feminine outwardly, but feel confidant that he is still heterosexual in desire for the GG and clothes do not make the man. For those who clothes and makeup do define someone sexually, then seeing a male partner with that on (or in case of my wife who wants a divorce) imagining it despite never seeing it, then it is a dealbreaker.

Ellen

[Tiffany Jane]

After talking with my wife about being on this site and how she felt about my new found support for accepting myself (thanks to all who have let me realize I am not alone) she said she loved me and wanted me to be happy with whoever I am. We keep an open dialogue regarding what she may have issues with.

[NicoleScott]

My over-the-top makeup and dress style doesn't bother my wife at all. She "understands" (in quotes, because she really can't understand or comprehend why I do it this way) that this is what drives me. But it's in private and kept that way just between the two of us. And, it's not taken to the bedroom, so whether it's attractive to her or not doesn't come into play. It's a part-time temporary occasional thing I like to do for pleasure. At other times, I'm just a fairly normal guy, dad, husband, sports fan, handyman, etc., so she's not threatened by my CDing.
I think the tipping points would be: 1) if I had a need to come out of the closet, 2) insist that our bedroom activities include my crossdressing or elements of it, 3) spend increasing amounts of time en femme, 4) talk about transition, and 5) out-of-control spending on girlie things. Status quo works for us.

[PaulaQ]

It seems to me that at some point a CD changes from male to female in the eyes of some GGs. The tipping point. After which some GGs feel uncomfortable which I can understand.

I agree with this line of reasoning. Actually, I think both men and women have limits about how much is "too much, or too far". This is fairly well observed in the kink community for instance - some submissive guys will let a domme put them in lingerie, but totally balk at makeup. Anyway, makeup, wigs, and forms are very common hard limits.

I think the reasons for these things are mostly highly personal, but I suspect at some point, for whatever reason, the combination of feminine attire / makeup / etc. hits a point where one's brain just goes "that's NOT right."

BTW, I hope my response isn't unwanted - since I'm neither a GG or a CD really.

[Rachael Leigh]

Katie yes mine thinks of me as a women if I insist on dressing in their clothes, now this is not an acceptance but I think it's more about trying to shame me. I try to tell her Im not intrested in being a women. For me it's just an art form and the fact I just enjoy the look and feel of womens attire.

[Nikki A.]

Widowed now, but my wife's tipping point was forms and the complete transformation. At home she was ok with the clothes. However when it appeared that I had breasts or put on a wig that was when she was uncomfortable and threatened by it.
There is no way she would accept that I now go out all dressed, except for halloween (that was my one day to go all out).

[Randee]

An interesting topic, and I don't usually have the much to say in these matters. My range of dressing is very narrow and specific by choice and experience. But the responses of Lidea and Tinkerbell as wives of crossdressers should be heeded because they are about as honest as they come.

We need to understand that in a marriage relationship, wives married men to be their husbands, and they want them to be MEN. They deserve for them to be MEN. In the marriage relationship there is only room for one female, and that is to be HER, the wife. That she would be resilient enough to tolerate the man she loves to dress himself in certain feminine clothing and still love him came as a glorious surprise to those of us who feared it could only trigger rejection. But she would honestly be just as happy not to have that as an integral part of him. She does view the clothing usually as only clothing, and realizes that males can become infatuated with women in a way that certain female clothes becomes an object of that infatuation. Sometimes it's the tactile feel of fabrics the he as a man would otherwise never wear, or the way it reveals her femininity, or whatever. Sometimes in our development the clothing might have been a substitute for a female that one did not have to share her femininity with at the time. Or he identified with the clothing the girls wore for an activity or sport in which he jealously could not participate because it was for girls only like an all girl ballet class or cheerleading and the interesting, different way the girls were to each other in an all girl setting. They must realize the attraction is a normal thing that happens to some guys based on things they were exposed to in their vulnerable developing years. It can trigger a mental but harmless drug that brings pleasurable excitement.

And though we as males would like to share that excitement with our partners, they are just not wired that way. And that seems to differentiate crossdressers, who only like to wear some of the clothing made for females, from transvestites, who try to duplicate the image (costuming) for personal or social purposes. And then come the transgender who try to duplicate the look, lifestyle, and emotions of a female, though from their own perspective.

I think we should appreciate that wives like Lidea and Tinkerbell tolerate CD'ing to a certain non-threatening level, and respect their very reasonable honesty to have husbands be men when drawing the line on the extent of their crossdressing. If we embrace that and put them first above what is "just clothing", I think there would be a lot less tension and better understanding. Thank you Lidea and Tinderbell for being here and giving your female perspective. And let us know if I got it right.

[Michelle55]

My wife doesn't seem to have any tipping point about me being dressed, just if I spend too much time doing it and not getting any work done.

My wife finds me attractive and is attracted to me in both guy mode and en femme. I think a lot of that is that she identifys as Bi even though she has yet to spend time being intimate with a GG. She did say one time that not only do I get my fantasy when we are intimate with me as Michelle, but she does too.

[Jenniferathome]

... Would you be comfortable if your SO wore a witch costume, with wig and tall hat, around the house? ...

Jeez Jess, that's just weird. :heehee:

[MatildaJ.]

I have friends who enjoy wearing latex pony suits around the house, and other friends who are way into Ren Faire, and others who put together elaborate costumes for Comic Con or Burning Man. It's all weird when it's not your thing.

And to me, the issue is whether the person acts like themselves, just dressed in different clothes, or whether they take on a different personality. If my husband dresses fully (wig & all) and takes on a new personality, then, yeah, it's weird to me.

He gets to do it if he wants to; I'm not the boss of him. But I won't pretend to feel comfortable with "her" if I'm not comfortable.

[Jenniferathome]

Hi Jess, I think you have misunderstood. I was being ironic. A cross dresser calling another type of dresser "weird." It was in jest only. Really. I was hoping for a laugh, not offense.

[Teresa]

Randee on the whole I agree with you, but if it was " just clothing " I wouldn't be doing it ! It's not a hobby to me !

Just a correction on the difference between transvestite and crossdressing, there is none in the literal translation.

We come back to the honesty question again , we can only be honest if out partners want to listen ! I would like to be totally open and honest with my wife now, I can never see it's going to happen !

[noeleena]

Hi,

Men dressing in Renaissance garb = clothes is very different than wearing female.s clothes and trying to be like or wonting to be like women .

if it was say a skirt , dress and tops or even like our men in the SCA. would not be an issue,

its when men go all out and to change thier demeanor and appreance and acting like women in as many aspects as they can voice included, and wont all of what is womens domain toilets gyms and all and wont others to just accept them as though they are women .

who then has crossed the line ,

my self if i married a male i would at the least expect him to remain one so dressing like our men do for our Renaissance groups does not count , and yes they look lovely,

And take the drag queens again for most its a dressup detail yet is that all there is, not from what iv seen , for some any way and what about the sexual side that seems to be very much a part of many dressers, is that not included as well.

It does not stop just at a skirt or top , theres a lot more included,and that for many .

...noeleena...

[MatildaJ.]

@Jenniferathome, no offense taken, just trying to clarify my point. (My points often don't come across clearly to people here; some combination of my own incoherence and the difficulty of expressing tone of voice on the internet, I guess.)

[sometimes_miss]

It seems to me that at some point a CD changes from male to female in the eyes of some GGs.
I don't think that we change from male to female. What changes, is what attracted them to us is gone. Women are attracted to alpha male characteristics. Leadership, dominance over others, physical prowess, bravery, physical strength, etc.. When we dress up, expecially because we want to go the whole nine yards by donning the most feminine of attire that we can, and to the extent of trying to talk like women, walk like women, change our body movements to resemble women, behave like women, it's simply eliminating all the things that a woman is sexually attracted to. After that's all gone, there's really nothing left that makes her want to stay with you; she'll look elsewhere until she finds what she's attracted to. And that will most likely be another man. Men are no different; as we're even more visually oriented, as a wife starts to lose her feminine figure, cuts her hair real short, stops using make up, stops wearing dresses and skirts, many men look outside their marriages for what they want sexually as well. Face it, everything we do goes against everything a woman is naturally sexually attracted to. So it's only normal for a woman to object to her mate's gradual change from a masculine male, into a feminine one; when possible, she will object to what you're doing, in hopes that it will stop, and you'll go back to who 'you really are', trying to ignore that who you really are, is a feminine male.

[noeleena]

Hi,

Sometimes miss,

You are saying women wont / attracted to alpha male characteristics leadership, dominance over others, and the other details you,v said, Oh wow,

Well im not so sure, sure , not all women. id hate to think what a male thinks of me then . some of what i am and do , some of cause are not possible, lets look at a marrage then would a male put up with me then . doubt it ,

im strong both body and mind leadership yes i doubt a male would see in me a wimp im no push over if need be ill push a male into a corner and i have done i wont back off two males thought i was a push over sorry some times we have to be stronger than a male and when the need arise.s , i dont know what some here think of me as a person apart from what i write and wether that comes over as i intend, im never sure,

The point i would like to make is get to know me as a person and a friend some one who can be trusted, im very sure of myself and the confidence to carry out what i need to and with out help when it comes down to it,

i have male friends who are nothing like you have said about , they really are lovely men they allso know me well enough to get along side me and work ,

Yes i agree some men are as youv said just not all men nore are women all like as said ,

When i stayed with my friend in Austraila yes Tasmania now who i get on quite well with ,okay i cleaned up the whole house every room as i cant stand a mess and stuff every where, like nothing cleaned could not see the kitchen bench and washing not done. yes im a fussy sod, and quess who rings me up wheres such and such so i give the answer all sorted,

i cooked an evening meal for 5 of us and before i go to bed its all washed and put away, and if the car and waggon is dirty ill clean it, in and out, yea i know im a fuss pot,

And one day we were at our mall and a friend thought we were having a tiff oooh wonder what gave her that idear , well we really do get on well, how ill say it think of a married couple getting on each others nerves he he,,,,,, yea well , like that .

and the other one was from a GP why dont you two just get together , oh yea here we go ...he he ....as a married couple. whos the cook in the kitchen i am and who said i best leave you alone my friend..... Hmmmm now you know a little more about this, tough cookie ,,,,,, am i really i dont know maybe i am , youll have to ask my friend .

And yes she,s on here, right i,ll say no more on that, oh just this we stayed in the same house for 6 weeks, so if you put 2 and 2 together youll know who , i mean .

...noeleena...

[Marcelle]

Hi Katie,

I really don't have a good response for you as my wife has no real tipping point . . . well save if I came home one day and said I wanted to start living as a woman then we both agreed some time ago that our relationship would have to change. My wife has seen me in all stages of dress (her request) to normalize (if such a word doesn't seem weird) the process. Indeed some days if I feel like being Isha around the house then I just wear girl clothes and a wig (Isha au natural as we call her) . . . so five o'clock shadow is visible, no mascara, no foundation - just glaringly guy me in a wig, shorts, bra and a t-shirt (boy arms and all).

I asked her about this very thing some time ago . . . "Is there a point where you stop thinking of me as a man" and her classic response "When you come home missing your boy parts would probably be the point where I stop thinking of you as a man". Now before anyone goes ballistic this was not a rude comment on her part due to insensitivity of the TS world, it is exactly how she views this thing I do. I am the same man she married and clothes, presentation, make-up, wigs and whatnot does not alter that fact. However should there come a time I meander further left on the spectrum then yes she would have to re-evaluate her perception of me. :battingeyelashes:

Hugs

Isha

[Claire Cook]

Hi Katie,
I asked her about this very thing some time ago . . . "Is there a point where you stop thinking of me as a man" and her classic response "When you come home missing your boy parts would probably be the point where I stop thinking of you as a man". Now before anyone goes ballistic this was not a rude comment on her part due to insensitivity of the TS world, it is exactly how she views this thing I do. I am the same man she married and clothes, presentation, make-up, wigs and whatnot does not alter that fact. However should there come a time I meander further left on the spectrum then yes she would have to re-evaluate her perception of me. :battingeyelashes:

Hugs

Isha

My responses to this thread have been pretty general. Isha (as usual!) nails it for me again. This is pretty much how my wife feels. I'm me no matter what I am wearing (even with boobs, wig, unshaven with no makeup around the house!) but she would draw the line if the boy parts were gone. But so would I!!

[EllenJo]

Interesting thread. My wife's tipping point is wigs and make up. She has never said anything about forms and pads, but I have decided not to go that direction. I asked her this question and her reply is that her man in a skirt, blouse panty hose and heels is still her man. Even that is something that she had to get use to but with the wig and make up I would no longer be her man but a woman and she is not sure that she could deal with that.
Hugs
Ellen Jo

[SamanthaSometimes]

Your question is intriguing and it, and all of the replies to date, assume the 'tipping point' is reached at some point upon a scale of feminine presentation. However, in my case, the tipping point is reached at zero on that scale. My wife knows I CD but doesn't want to observe me in any form (no pun intended) of feminine presentation. So in my wife's case, the tipping point of "how far they will allow their SO to go when dressing" occurs at a feeling level without any physical visualization. However, I concede that my wife may be visualizing my feminine appearance in her mind (imagining) and there is no telling how I appear there. Maybe like Jennifer Lawrence? :D

[CherylFlint]

The advice from my father was, "If you're going to do a job, do it right the first time."
I'm sorry, but "half dressing" would be like going to the store and choosing a steak, buying charcoal, cooking the steak to perfection (with all of the trimmings), and then setting it on a plate on a nice table setting but YOU"RE NOT ALLOWED TO EAT IT!
Now way. If you're going to dress, dress. None of this "under dressing" or "half dressing".
OR, you can dress but NEVER go out. Be like having a candy apple '62 'vette in the garage but you're never allowed to open the garage door and take it for a spin.
That's my take. If the SO can't deal with it, then she can't deal with YOU. Being a CD starts with the state of mind, not the dress. Tell her that.

[Teresa]

Isha your second paragraph probably sums most of us, if we lost our boy parts maybe there would be more of a problem ! Problem is the boy parts got me into this situation in the first place ! I'm not sure if my wife would notice but she's pushing the man to get the house repairs done !

[Anna H]

Mine doesn't care what I wear...but I'm a bit self-conscious of
looking too ridiculous. I have had my days, though...:)

I could dress up like a bimbette or an office executive. She sees
right through it all. lol!

[LelaK]

The advice from my father was, "If you're going to do a job, do it right the first time."
I'm sorry, but "half dressing" would be like going to the store and choosing a steak, buying charcoal, cooking the steak to perfection (with all of the trimmings), and then setting it on a plate on a nice table setting but YOU"RE NOT ALLOWED TO EAT IT!

All the way seems extreme, since it would involve replacing the penis with a vagina, adding breasts, changing the vocal chords, changing the DNA, adopting feminine mannerisms and speech habits, etc.

I'm satisfied to be unique, choosing which "feminine" attributes I want and which ones I don't want. But for those feminine ones I don't want, I usually also don't want the "masculine" ones. In those cases I mostly favor neutral. Take walking for example. I don't want to walk femininely or masculinely, just naturally.


Now back to the OP.
The tipping point moves?

But the idea of a tipping point is interesting and seems reasonable, except that the tipping point is likely movable. While the SO may reach the tipping point one day at clothing, he/she may reach it another day at the wig etc. And it probably changes over long time periods too.

And one of the GGs said it's her CD's perceived attitude that is the tipping point. And that also seems to be something that is likely to be movable over time. Si?

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Katie, My wife is OK with my dressing as long as she doesn't have to se it or talk about it. DA/DT !

[Katie Russell]

One last though on the thread.

Is it also a matter of combination and context?

Dress OK as long as not combined with wig and make up. However, if make up worn in males mode then is this OK (manscara)? Likewise if your body is shaved for fashion / sporting reasons (as many younger males do) is this OK. But if it's shaved to appear feminine is it not OK.

Katie

[prene]

Just that I dress has been to much for my last few SO's.

I have been going out a few times with 2 other gg's and I have noticed when I dress ... just pass underdressing I am just another girl to them.
I wish it was different cause I do like one of them.
Makeup, corset, forms and boots always just turns me into a girl to them. I do not think they are uncomfortable but not interested in me as a SO.

Wish it was different

[Fi Evo]

My SO is happy with my forms and knows about the wigs and make-up (even tolerates my 'borrowing') but hasn't yet seen Fiona in all her garb. We have a planned 'going out' date night coming up soon so I guess we'll both learn a lot!

Fiona

[sometimes_miss]

Yes i agree some men are as youv said just not all men nore are women all like as said , <snip>
Noeleena, I've stopped qualifying everything I say with 'most' or 'some'. Like every rule, there will be some exceptions, with a huge emphasis on the 'some', when there are actually very, very few, to the point where basically the statement can be taken to be true >99% of the time.

Like any other scientifically minded person, I derive my points of view and beliefs from my observations collected through my entire life, as well as those that I have read about in other like minded scientifically based non fiction books and papers. I wholly will admit that what I state does not correspond to 100% of all observations. However, I do feel it necessary to counter the statements by others who base their statements on what appears to be nothing more than wishful thinking, because it raises our hopes way too high, and ends up with devastatingly depressing results far too often, a problem I see at work almost every day. While I think optimism is a good thing, leading people on to believe that their chances are substantially greater than what reality suggests is a very bad thing to do to them, it's just plain cruel, because they're going to feel very hurt when they come crashing down into the real world. I would think that most people would much rather be occasionally happily surprised, than continuously expecting joy and rarely experiencing it.