How do you "become" a woman?

[Kate T]

Right, so sorry folks, another one of my "I just don't quite get it" questions.

I "get" TS who have always known they were girls just born with the wrong anatomy. I understand that for many for various reasons transition was / is not possible until later in life.

What I don't get is how someone can "become" a woman i.e. late onset transsexuality. Is late onset transsexuality essentially a variant of TS wherein the individual has so completely suppressed their underlying identity that they convinced even themselves they were male? Can someone truly be a "man" i.e. genuinely at the core of their identity feel they are male, then as they age become a woman and truly feel their identity is female? Can someone possibly genuinely at the core of their identity be both?

[I Am Paula]

I am a classic late onset transsexual. I began medical transition at 54.
The 54 years leading up to this point can only be described as denial, denial, denial. I first knew I was in the wrong body as a very early teen, and wrote it off as being gay. Then I fought my natural urges by becoming 'normal', I married a woman, bought a house, went to work. I still knew I was built all wrong, but as long as I portrayed the American Dream to everybody else, I was fine. Bullsh*t. I overcompensated big time. I wore itchy scratchy plaid shirts, joked and farted with the boys, and seriously drank to excess. In hindsight, I'm sure they saw right thru me, cause I was a girl in wolf's clothing. I struggled thru many years of this. I simply lead my life to other peoples expectations. I had no life, or identity of my own. At about fifty the GD was starting to take over my life. Miserable, but unable to face a truth I was fully aware of. Thud! My brother dropped dead in the middle of the night. He had been my musical collaborator, writing partner, lead singer, everything that was my career, my life, and my passion. I was half a musician without him.
All at once I knew- It is much later than we think. Within weeks I came to accept that there was only one path that was available to me. Transition. Now, and fast.

In conclusion, I don't think that a late onset transsexual really exists. We cannot suddenly become transsexual. We were all our lives, but the driving force to be 'normal' lead us to be consummate actors, and liars. Denial can cover up everything.

BTW- My brothers funeral was the last time I was ever on stage. I cannot go there without seeing a big empty spot on stage where he is supposed to be. I'm still in the music business in a more technical role.

[Rachel Smith]

I can't say I always knew I was a girl. My first memories are that something just wasn't right, that was around age 8 or 9. I wanted to be with the girls and do girl things yet I looked like a boy and was treated as such hearing all the time "boys don't do that". I pondered often what about me, why can't I do that. It seemed not to matter what I wanted or felt even though it was MY life. It only mattered what society saw and if I was going to have any chance at acceptance I best learn how to be what society saw. Isn't that acceptance what we all desire tg or not?

It wasn't until I got into my 40's and I saw MY life passing before my eyes did I consider things could possibly be different. Then in my 50's it became now or never. After much self doubt and research I felt that God would want us all to live as happily as we could and for me that meant transitioning.

Now to your question. Yes I suppose you could be both, I for one was not. I knew at my core there was a female just waiting to get out but as I said I didn't know that early on I only knew that something didn't fit. When I opened that door at 57, with the help love and support of my friends Michelle and Rick and those that went before me here, it was like slipping off a pair of cement boots that were holding me at the bottom of the river where I couldn't breath without drowning. It wasn't late onset transsexuality though to many it appears that way. What it was in reality was just a late coming out.

Hope that helps some

[Frances]

I don't believe in late onset transsexuality, actually, and I am a late transitioner (HRT at 42, SRS at 44). I feel the timing of transition has a lot to do with family social rules and internalized transphobia, and the ability to "hold your breath under water."

I do think, however, that some people confuse hating being men with wanting to be women.

But, I cannot really know what is in the heart and minds of others, so my opinion does not really matter.

[Michelle.M]

I am a classic late onset transsexual. I began medical transition at 54. The 54 years leading up to this point can only be described as denial, denial, denial.

In conclusion, I don't think that a late onset transsexual really exists. We cannot suddenly become transsexual. We were all our lives, but the driving force to be 'normal' lead us to be consummate actors, and liars. Denial can cover up everything.

This is pretty much my story, and I think this is similar to the histories of many late transitioning trans folk.


I don't believe in late onset transsexuality

Agreed. I think that term is misused, and it’s probably only a matter of time before the medical establishment comes up with a more accurate term.


I feel the timing of transition has a lot to do with family social rules and internalized transphobia, and the ability to "hold your breath under water."

Oh, no doubt! I think people believe they’re witnessing “late onset transsexuality” when what they’re really seeing is the delayed result of people no longer submitting to societal pressures to conform. Social norms, religion, lack of support, lack of financial ability, and the fact that medical and psychiatric practitioners have taken so long to catch up to us have made late transitioning the norm for most of us who have done it after the age of 30, 40 or 50 years or more.

This is also the answer for people who wonder why there are “suddenly” so many kids wanting to transition. Had those factors that I just listed continued unabated these kids would all be late transitioners as well. Thank God society is becoming better informed and more (even if only somewhat) accepting of variance.

[Rachel Smith]

Frances your opinion does matter don't ever forget that! People only get in trouble when they state their opinions as facts and you have not done that.

I will now return you to the issues of the OP, lol.

[LeaP]

So timely ...

I echo all the responses. And add suppression, repression, and depression.

On suppression leading to male identity. NO. Being male is something I have emphatically rejected throughout my life, even if I only reached the female episodically. Not even bothering with gender terms, I have usually described myself as being a non-entity.

[I Am Paula]

LeaP- So true. Most of my life I considered my identity just something it said on my passport.

[Marleena]

Adina no TS woman just becomes a woman, they always were female "with a defect". Here's a link to a renowned therapist (just skip to the middle age section).

Some have a clear knowledge they are female at an early age but conform to parents and societal expectations. I was one that knew something was wrong but couldn't understand it.

http://www.avitale.com/developmentalreview.htm

[Dianne S]

I'm 47 and at the beginning of transition. I've known I was a crossdresser for ages, but it's only in about the last year or so that I admitted to myself that I'm TS.

I agree with the others: Denial, suppression and repression were responsible for the late realization.

[Kimberly Kael]

Denial, suppression and repression were responsible for the late realization.

Bingo. It's easy to see in retrospect, but as a child with the world telling you that having a penis is the very definition of being male? That indoctrination into an oversimplified world view can take some undoing.

[DeeDee1974]

At the age of 35 I was mature enough to handle everything that came with transitioning. Yes I was in denial before that. I knew that I had some friends that would support me, my wife would support me and at the very least my mom and sister would support me.

When I was younger I feared I would lose everyone. At 35 I also knew I could stand alone on my own two feet.

[Aprille]

I think at some point you become less afraid of what other people think. You were always "woman" or whatever you believed as a child to be female. It then is necessary, with maturity, to be who you are inside, and only you know what that expression of self is like. Everyone matures differently and has different socio-economic situations, so their timetable may not permit until they are much older. Also, your outward expression, what everyone else actually sees, may be very different from your private home life. What you share with other people is only a tiny fraction of your being.

[Angela Campbell]

For me, I always knew I was a female but fear of being found out, resulting in intimidation, ridicule, violence, or worse, caused me to hide it so very deeply. I don't think there was a single action in my life where I wasn't concerned with someone finding out about me. Every thing I did, every decision I made, every single day was with the intention of not being found out. Eventually this fear caused some pretty major problems in my life. I finally transitioned when it was no longer possible to go on as I was.

[Frances]

So, we basically all agree that the early transitioner/late transitioner Blanchard model is hokum?

[Dianne S]

Yes. I don't buy the "Autogynephilia" theory at all.

[LeaP]

There are people whom it may well fit, Frances, but the idea that it's an exhaustive or even comprehensive is nonsensical.

[Frances]

I think you are conflating my post and Dianne's. I was quite autogynephilic and still am to a certain extent. So, it applies to me. I just don't believe that it is a motivation for transition, but, rather that so-called late transitioners were also so-called "homosexual transsexuals" who simply did not transition whilst young. That's an over-simplification from a cis point of view. My posts are super short (on purpose), and often lead to misinterpretations.

[MatildaJ.]

It's only in about the last year or so that I admitted to myself that I'm TS.


I was in denial before [age 35].


Is late onset transsexuality essentially a variant of TS wherein the individual has so completely suppressed their underlying identity that they convinced even themselves they were male?

That may be true. But I don't see how loved ones are supposed to differentiate between such strong denial and late onset transsexuality. I'm also not sure what the point is, of trying to distinguish between complete denial and late onset transsexuality.

I'm sure for the transitioner, it's reassuring to feel that she has finally figured everything out and she was always a woman. But a spouse may find it easier to believe that the transitioner has changed from male to female rather than to believe that their whole marriage (and decades of friendship) was built on lies and repression.

Perhaps the two people can just agree to disagree and be compassionate with each other. Insisting that one's spouse admit that she married a woman twenty years ago, and has therefore had sex with a woman for twenty years, so why can't they keep on having sex... I don't think that's going to make one's spouse feel good in the present. Likewise, the spouse shouldn't use phrases like "when you were a man" -- that's not going to make the transitioner feel good in the present. They might be well advised to just try to live in the moment and avoid discussing the past if it is too awkward.

[Dianne S]

That may be true. But I don't see how loved ones are supposed to differentiate between such strong denial and late onset transsexuality.

As you say, there's not much point in distinguishing. Late-onset or late-realization transexuality or whatever you call it is utterly devastating for the spouse. It's no less devastating than if her husband was diagnosed with cancer.

I feel horrible for my wife; she is going through a very difficult time. At the same time, so am I. I didn't ask to be trans and I wouldn't choose to be trans, but it is what it is and we need to deal with it.

[whowhatwhen]

I think you are conflating my post and Dianne's. I was quite autogynephilic and still am to a certain extent. So, it applies to me. I just don't believe that it is a motivation for transition, but, rather that so-called late transitioners were also so-called "homosexual transsexuals" who simply did not transition whilst young. That's an over-simplification from a cis point of view. My posts are super short (on purpose), and often lead to misinterpretations.

To be fair, IIRC some genetic women fit the AGP profile as well.
AFAIK It's not used here anymore to invalidate transwomen's identity and deny SRS.

[Brianna_H]

Late-onset or late-realization transexuality or whatever you call it is utterly devastating for the spouse. It's no less devastating than if her husband was diagnosed with cancer.
Not all spouses feel this way. My wife vastly prefers me as a transgender person over me dying of cancer. Neither of us fit neatly into gender boxes in the first place. Her one and only concern so far is that we stay together no matter what and I feel the same.

Humans can hide a lot from themselves. In high school one of our teachers came out as a homosexual after decades of marriage and having a kid. It caused huge trauma for his family and really was a case of living a lie for so long. It's no secret that we can fool even ourselves for a long time. It seems to me that there are people who figure it out early and those who see it late, but it's a gradient, not a line between two different issues.

[Frances]

AFAIK It's not used here anymore to invalidate transwomen's identity and deny SRS.

I don't think it ever was. Even Blanchard says he never did. It is more used as a weapon to repudiate transsexuality by transphobes.

[Kathryn Martin]

As Frances says there no such thing as late onset transsexuality. You are either born with this condition or you are not. Depending on the intensity of your condition you may transition earlier or later. To me the distinction between a 25 year old and 50 year old transitioning is completely artificial. Once you have completed puberty it really does not matter anymore. If you are transsexed then you will transition.

I do not think that TS really experience such a thing as being born into the wrong body. Your body is defective, genetically, organically and physiologically. This defect must be corrected.

You cannot become a woman you either are one or you are not. Being a woman with a defective body comes with social consequences that start at birth. Being socialized according to your genitals is one of them. Once you are socialized as a man, the process is not one of "becoming a woman" but rather to remove and ameliorate the effects of being socialized as a man. That is the hard part.

I don't much subscribe to the suppression, repression and depression theory per se. I do however believe that the transsexed sometimes refuse to cultivate who they are for fear of social reprisals and often begin to cultivate a maleness as if they had something to prove to themselves and the world in which they live. Depending on how intense their condition is this may take years to overcome.

[LeaP]

I don't much subscribe to the suppression, repression and depression theory per se. I do however believe that the transsexed sometimes refuse to cultivate who they are for fear of social reprisals and often begin to cultivate a maleness ...

Thank god you didn't have to live in my head. The first line describes my life. The second is also true.

[Kathryn Martin]

Lea, I think we are actually talking about the same thing from different viewpoints...... Factors such as personality, temperament etc also can create a very different perceptive background.

[Brooklyn]

The phenomenon is not well understood even by mental health professionals. I know several who transitioned in their teens or early 20's, and they do often seem cut from a different cloth. Things are changing, though, with greater awareness among young people. I would have remained depressed and may have eventually hurt myself if I didn't transition. The various theories are interesting but do not matter to me at a practical level. It is is a mental health issue - not some lifestyle choice. I finally feel like a normal person - even if I don't appear normal at this stage.

[Michelle789]

What I don't get is how someone can "become" a woman i.e. late onset transsexuality. Is late onset transsexuality essentially a variant of TS wherein the individual has so completely suppressed their underlying identity that they convinced even themselves they were male? Can someone truly be a "man" i.e. genuinely at the core of their identity feel they are male, then as they age become a woman and truly feel their identity is female? Can someone possibly genuinely at the core of their identity be both?

Yes, that is exactly what late onset transsexualism is. The truth is that even if a late onset TS starts to self-reflect on her past she will realize that she did know all along that she was a girl, and repressed it so deeply that she was in a deep state of denial, causing her to think she is actually a man.

I don't believe in late-onset or early-onset TS. I believe that gender dysphoria is progressive, and progresses at different rates for us. Whether we are able to "man up" well or not, and the age we end up transitioning at is decided by both our core personality and societal pressures.

A core personality that consists of a lot of stereotypically feminine or androgynous personality traits often has a harder time creating a male persona and often transitions earlier.

Examples of stereotypical feminine personality traits include: Examples may include someone who is more sensitive, not athletic, not physically strong, shy around women, is more of a friend than a lover with women, nurturing, emotional.

Examples of stereotypical gender neutral or androgynous traits: objective thinker, nerd, intellectual, computer programmer

A core personality that consists of a lot of stereotypically masculine personality traits often has an easier time constructing a male persona and often transitions later.

Examples of stereotypical masculine traits: physically strong, athletic, outgoing, knows how to hit on women, stoical, more emotionally detached

Our environment also shapes us too. Many of us face more social pressures to "man up" than others. A lot of late-transitioners grew up in the 50s or 60s at a time where showing any sign of femininity, which includes traits that are gender neutral, faced discrimination and mistreatment by family, friends, and society. So a lot of these people put on a strong male persona, joining the military, getting married, having kids, masculine occupations, positions of power and prestige, to hide that they are trans. At some point late in life they could no longer keep up the male persona, and hence transition.

People who grew up after 1980 might have faced significantly less pressure to "man up" than our Baby Boomer counterparts, combined with the internet, the might have figured out they are trans and transition in their 20s.

But it's really a combination of your core personality traits and the degree of societal pressure you face. You might be very stereotypically feminine but faced tremendous pressure to "man up", or be more masculine but faced less pressure to "man up".

I also think the availability of the internet in the last 15 years, and more trans awareness and pushing for trans rights in recent years, is allowing people of all ages to finally transition.

[MonicaJean]

Michelle, your post is suitable for framing. It describes me very well.


Ashley: "I would have remained depressed and may have eventually hurt myself if I didn't transition.". Very good point. I'm wondering myself if or when this continued feeling of depression ever goes away. And at what point one says "enough!".

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Its not rocket science..nobody becomes a woman..in fact, people that try to "become" women will almost certainly fail. Gender identity is real, and wanting to be a woman does not make it so and a man that becomes a woman will suffer consequences.

It has nothing to do with whether you are masculine or feminine. It has to do with how you coped with it over your life. You can repress it, you can deny it, you can fight it, you can substance abuse it, you can marry and hope that cures it, you can compartmentalize it, but in the end you can't avoid what it does to you to feel like you don't exist..

Then once you can't avoid it, you may not have any money, you may be ashamed, you may be depressed, you may feel your kids, wife or parents would abandon you, etc etc...

all of that adds up people transitioning at later stages of life...as more and more information becomes easily available I expect the average age of transition comes sooner.

[Krisi]

I don't think it's any different than becoming a Christian (or another religion) later in life. Or becomming gay or lesbian. We have life experiences that change us. Sometimes in small ways, sometimes in bigger ways.

I worked with a lady who married and had children, then at some point "jumped the fence" and became a lesbian. It happens.

[Frances]

I am pretty sure people don't become gay or start believe in the supernatural if they were not already gay and believing in the supernatural. If you mean that a person was suppressing their sexual orientation and finally stopped pretending, then yes, it's kind of like that. The juxtaposition of the verb "to become" and the word "gay" sounds a little off to me.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Krisi that's ridiculous.
It has ZERO in common with changing religions or deciding to date women instead of men. Changing religions?!?!?! omg

Your statement is a good example of how little nonTS people know about us.

Do people attempt to or complete transitions that are ill advised? Yes of course.. and that's because you cannot "become" a woman and those people end up finding that out the hard way.

[Donna Joanne]

The flaw in the OP is what is being termed as "late onset trans-sexuality" is in fact "late transition commencement". I have always been female, with self recognition during early puberty, when my psyche and endocrinological <sp?> systems were no longer were in sync. I have learned so much about my condition, yes it is a MEDICAL CONDITION, but not a disease. Is trans-sexuality a physical life threatening disease? NO. Is it a debilitating condition and possibly fatal psychological situation? MOST DEFINITELY! Can it be corrected with medical intervention? ABSOLUTELY!

I really don't want to bring the CD vs. TG debate into this thread, but a CD does have a choice, a TG doesn't! Just my :2c: worth.

[Kimberly Kael]

I don't think it's any different than becoming a Christian (or another religion) later in life.

I can't imagine anything more different, actually.


I worked with a lady who married and had children, then at some point "jumped the fence" and became a lesbian. It happens.

That's not exactly conclusive evidence that it does, and everyone I've ever talked to seems to indicate otherwise. My aunt only dated women until late in life when she married a man. Same thing, right? Except that as she points out, she has always been bisexual. People just don't want to hear it, because it differs from their own personal experience. I stayed at a B&B this past week where the owner is a lesbian, and she was previously married to a man purely because of social pressure and expectations. It happens.

[Jenny Elwood]

Hi All!

Donna I also don't want to get into a CD vs. TS debate. I'm just a curious crossdresser, who at some stage (mistakenly) thought I may be TS. Could you just clarify your statement: "...a CD does have a choice, a TG doesn't!..." for academic purposes.

[Dianne S]

I believe that gender dysphoria is progressive, and progresses at different rates for us.

Wow, yes! This really struck a chord with me. I think you've nailed it.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I agree...but to a layperson, they can misunderstand this....You don't become a woman because of gender dysphoria, you suffer living the wrong gender more and more...that suffering can be thought of as gender dypshoria.
People that I've met suffering from bad gender dysphoria are desperate to NOT be a woman (speaking mtf)

Donna I don't think a CD has a choice about whether they want to dress or not...
and as Kimberly points out there is no evidence sexuality is a choice either...

I'm gonna be a broken record but the hideous idea that we are turning 40 or 50 and are these unhappy males in midlife crisis that somehow "Decide" that we "Want" to transition is a symptom of a huge challenge we face in having non ts people understand what this thing actually is...its part of why we still face plenty of hatred and poor treatment.. I am not denying that there are people that mistake their unhappiness for transsexuality...hopefully they get the help they need before its too late...

This statement "I worked with a lady who married and had children, then at some point "jumped the fence" and became a lesbian. It happens" is just breathtakingly wrongheaded...
and to relate it to a transsexual is no less wrong than 2+2=11

[Donna Joanne]

Hi All!

Donna I also don't want to get into a CD vs. TS debate. I'm just a curious crossdresser, who at some stage (mistakenly) thought I might be TS. Could you just clarify your statement: "...a CD does have a choice, a TG doesn't!..." for academic purposes.

The only choice a TG has is whether we TRANSITION or not, we have always been and will always be Transsexual. My question in reverse is- If a CD stops cross-dressing and NEVER dresses or has a desire to dress again, are they still a cross-dresser? I'm not a CD, so I can't say. They same way a CD isn't me and can't either.

I don't want us to digress into a "flame war", but we (CD's and TG's) are not the SAME and NEVER will be. But we can love and respect each other!

[Jenny Elwood]

Donna I will honour my premise to not get involved in a CD / TS debate. I just wanted clarification to the full picture of your statement.

Thank you.

[Jorja]

As I am one of only a few here that transitioned fairly early, age 22, I really cannot understand how many of you could wait so long. For me, it was a driving need, a must, I simply had to transition as soon as possible or die. How did you manage to put off the intense feelings for so long? I understand family obligations, career obligations etc... Was it that you just did not realize it at that time?

[LeaP]

Lea, I think we are actually talking about the same thing from different viewpoints...... Factors such as personality, temperament etc also can create a very different perceptive background.

Perhaps. I would be interested in your expanding on this.


... It is is a mental health issue - not some lifestyle choice. ...

It is clearly not a lifestyle choice – I agree with that. As to whether it is a mental health issue, that depends on how you mean that. Many TS have comorbid issues such as depression, mood disorders, and other life disrupting syndromes. Those are mental health issues. Treating transsexualism itself as a mental health issue is treacherous. Very few indeed regard "cross" gender phenomena in intersexed people (I.e., cross gender from the perspective of how they were sexed or corrected at birth) to be anything other then a manifestation of an understandable birth defect. Conversely, very few lay people regard transsexuals as anything other than mentally disordered. This is not a theoretical concern. It is something that I have to deal with every day.


...

A core personality that consists of a lot of stereotypically feminine or androgynous personality traits often has a harder time creating a male persona and often transitions earlier.

Examples of stereotypical feminine personality traits include: Examples may include someone who is more sensitive, not athletic, not physically strong, shy around women, is more of a friend than a lover with women, nurturing, emotional.

Examples of stereotypical gender neutral or androgynous traits: objective thinker, nerd, intellectual, computer programmer

A core personality that consists of a lot of stereotypically masculine personality traits often has an easier time constructing a male persona and often transitions later.

Examples of stereotypical masculine traits: physically strong, athletic, outgoing, knows how to hit on women, stoical, more emotionally detached

Our environment also shapes us too. Many of us face more social pressures to "man up" than others. A lot of late-transitioners grew up in the 50s or 60s at a time where ...

...

But it's really a combination of your core personality traits and the degree of societal pressure you face. You might be very stereotypically feminine but faced tremendous pressure to "man up", or be more masculine but faced less pressure to "man up".

I also think the availability of the internet in the last 15 years, and more trans awareness and pushing for trans rights in recent years, is allowing people of all ages to finally transition.

While I agree with your stereotypes AS stereotypes, the tie to early vs. late transition is a fallacious meme that goes back to the earliest (and worst) of gatekeeping approaches in the original gender clinics. It also has strong ties to Ray Blanchard's notions of homosexual and non-homosexual transsexualism.

The first was discredited long ago, the issue being that the clinics mistakenly validated their own stereotype assumption because they only selected younger individuals for treatment they judged sufficiently and stereotypically feminine. It's well-established that in response and desperate for treatment, applicants played to the stereotypes to the max. I.e., the stereotypes are false even for what would be regarded today as the most intense, early, and passable trans population.

Blanchard included stereotypical feminine behavior and physical characteristic associated with homosexuality that have also been discredited - but which have also been improperly extended into over-overreaching theories of early vs late onset transsexualism. Blanchard's ideas are widely panned because of the way others have used his ideas and because of his use of stereotypes. In truth, there is more there than credited as aspects of his work extend theories of psycho-sexual inversion in interesting ways. But the association with gay stereotypes is a reflection of cultural bias.

Your characterization of baby boomers and the culture of the times when we were growing up is true enough in the main, but you need to be careful about how that leads down the same path of validating stereotypes. I.e., there are a lot of late (and older) transitioners who happen to be boomers, many of are transitioning late because of some of those factors, but the phenomenon of late transition doesn't provide any support for the idea that meeting a stereotype makes it more likely that transition will occur earlier - even though many late transitioners exhibit pronounced male characteristics. Why? Because those are the result of time - not the reason for late transition. I would have had as gilded a passability path myself at 20 as any 20 year-old today, despite how I have aged under the influence of T. Yet despite growing up in an extraordinarily liberal and permissive household, I almost certainly would have been institutionalized had I brought up gender issues and transition. I had NO pressure to "man up", I'm disinterested in sports, and have developed a mix of characteristics. Moreover, it is extraordinarily hard to differentiate what is native to my personality vs. not. It also begs the question of whether it matters. These ARE stereotypes, after all.

I largely agree with the last statement, but on the basis of transsexualism being depathologized and a degree of social tolerance more than rights. The internet plays a huge role in connecting people and helping them.


As I am one of only a few here that transitioned fairly early, age 22, I really cannot understand how many of you could wait so long. ... How did you manage to put off the intense feelings for so long? ...

"Simple." You bury it under an avalanche of related and consequential psychological issues. This goes to Kathryn's point regarding different personality types.

[Angela Campbell]

Jorga................fear was my excuse

[Megan G]

I really cannot understand how many of you could wait so long. For me, it was a driving need, a must, I simply had to transition as soon as possible or die. How did you manage to put off the intense feelings for so long? I understand family obligations, career obligations etc... Was it that you just did not realize it at that time?

Jorja,

For me it was the fear of reprisal and people finding out that kept me from doing something about it when I was younger. I have known since I was very young but when I finally mustered up the courage to tell my mother (age 12-13?) she made me feel so bad about it that I swore I would never tell anyone again. I just kept burying my feelings..

I am 40 now, it was not an easy road from 12-13 till now but I tried my best. I thought by getting married and having kids would "cure" me.....nope that did not work.

It was not until I had a meltdown almost 2 years ago that I finally admitted to myself that I could not hide this any longer. I was miserable and on the verge...

Megan

[arbon]

How did you manage to put off the intense feelings for so long? I understand family obligations, career obligations etc... Was it that you just did not realize it at that time?

When I look back on it Jorga it makes me feel like crying, I was so miserable and unhappy.

Like others said fear was a huge one, along with not understanding what was really wrong. I just thought I was a sick, perverted, messed up person, that everyone would hate if they found out about me.

I think if there had been more information available it would have been different.

[Jorja]

"Simple." You bury it under an avalanche of related and consequential psychological issues. This goes to Kathryn's point regarding different personality types.

Lea, you say "simple" and I know from my own experience that it wasn't just "simple". From about 5 or 6 years old this is all that was in my mind. I tried everything one can think of to bury it. It just couldn't be done.

[Angela Campbell]

Maybe you were more intense than I or maybe it wasn't beat out of you as much or maybe you are braver than I was. I tried everything I could to hide it for so long.

[LeaP]

That's why I put simple in quotes. It's difficult for me to sufficiently describe the meltdown I had in adolescence and how that, in turn, affected my course for decades. I was dragged around to a progression of shrinks. I missed - completely missed - 2 full years of high school. I was violent, angry, and withdrawn. Yet during this period I had a steady girlfriend (ages appx 14-20), even as I had a hidden cache of trans material and was episodically crossdressing (which goes back to age 5 or so). So maybe one way of describing it was my intensity directed toward suppression was comparable to yours toward expression.

I can't systematically account for why people go one way or the other any more than I can for why some gay people are openly gay from their earliest years while others come out in later adulthood. Are they any less gay?

[Marleena]

How did you manage to put off the intense feelings for so long? I understand family obligations, career obligations etc... Was it that you just did not realize it at that time?

Jorja I'll try to keep this short. I hit the wall in my twenties and tried to self medicate. I ran out of pills and had no idea how to get help without outing myself, this was pre-internet. My ex-wife could tell you how desperate I was, I thought I was going nuts. I had no choice but to try to bury it and continue my life ( my wife got pregnant too). It affected my whole life, I would CD off and on, ended up going to shrinks for decades for depression and anger issues but afraid to tell them I had gender issues. I was a loner, afraid people could see through me, etc. A work injury a few years ago gave me too much time to think and I'm finally trying to deal with it.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

buried it so deep

did everything male that i could to prove i was male..

i told myself it was a fantasy...i accepted the "common wisdom"...i had a peepee therefore i was a boy so although i desperately wished i could live as a woman i felt it was impossible..i plotted my future as a woman constantly...

and jorja the distress was awful ...to feel "wrong" for so long was torture...like Arbon i look back and it just makes me sad

[Kathryn Martin]

As I am one of only a few here that transitioned fairly early, age 22, I really cannot understand how many of you could wait so long. For me, it was a driving need, a must, I simply had to transition as soon as possible or die. How did you manage to put off the intense feelings for so long? I understand family obligations, career obligations etc... Was it that you just did not realize it at that time?

I am going to wade here for a moment. The problem is that this is something where individual biography plays a significant role. Intensity of feelings about yourself and acting by way of transition to overcome the disconnect between your brain and your body are not necessarily a seamless cause and effect. Biographical events and issues as well as medical biography will invariably impact the progression from those feelings to transition completion. For some of us it is more a matter of surviving to transition and be whole.

So much to say - no inclination to say it here.

[LeaP]

So much to say - no inclination to say it here.

Thank God for that - and you know I mean that in the best possible way ...

[Jorja]

Thank you ladies for helping me understand just a little more.

[Frances]

I started seeing to doctors at around 15 years old to cure me from being transsexual. Based on my family's social rules and values, gender transgression was the worst thing possible. I saw doctors again at 20, at 28 and in my mid-thirties. I tried weighl-lifting, drugs, booze, anything to dull it. I went back to see psychiatrists at 39 to avoid suicide and finally see it through. I had no desire to transition. I stayed in therapy (individual and group) for five years. They had no intention on pushing towards transition.

I finally transtioned. It was never something I "wanted" to do or felt I was allowed to do. The intensity got stronger than my will to resist it.

[Aprilrain]

I thought by getting married and having kids would "cure" me.....nope that did not work.
Megan

I think we need billboards along the highways that say "no, marriage will not cure you!" It seems to be an epidemic.

[Frances]

LOVE your new avatar!

[JulieMcKie]

I think we need billboards along the highways that say "no, marriage will not cure you!" It seems to be an epidemic.

Add me to the list that thought marriage would be a cure. Now I see why most transition in their early 20's before marriage or after 40 when the kids are all old enough to look after themselves. 30's can be a very rough spot with family commitments while coming to terms with your gender identity.

[Kathryn Martin]

I don't think it's any different than becoming a Christian (or another religion) later in life. Or becomming gay or lesbian. We have life experiences that change us. Sometimes in small ways, sometimes in bigger ways.

I worked with a lady who married and had children, then at some point "jumped the fence" and became a lesbian. It happens.

Oh God give me patience. This is a terrible misunderstanding Krisi. You don't convert to female or gay because of some change in world views. It's not a conversion.


Perhaps. I would be interested in your expanding on this.

This is an interesting one. I sometimes wonder what suppression and repression really are. It's nothing of substance really it's a process or a mechanism but not in and of itself of value. Remember when I said about myself that I became the instrument of my own subjugation. I have no idea why we use these mechanisms to shovel untruth about ourselves into our own pocket. The interesting thing is that these are social mechanism, I reject the idea, that they are psychological. It is the fear of the freak when she stands in front of the mirror and someone might walk by behind and see what she sees.

[DeeDee1974]

I think we need billboards along the highways that say "no, marriage will not cure you!" It seems to be an epidemic.

This.

I actually wasn't satisfied with one failed marriage, and went in for #2. As a matter of fact I'm 99% sure ex-#1 doesn't even know about me.

And ex-#2 is the most supportive person in my life.

Despite liking kids, I do feel lucky not to have any of my own.

[Kimberly Kael]

As I am one of only a few here that transitioned fairly early, age 22, I really cannot understand how many of you could wait so long ... Was it that you just did not realize it at that time?

As others have said, I'm sure it's highhly individual. I had very little pressure to be masculine and got by as a fairly androgynous individual with my focus squarely on intellectual pursuits and romance. I can only imagine that the combined social pressures of being attracted to men and identifying as female would mean that straight trans women would feel a stronger push to transition earlier. As I was attracted to women I found the opposite pressure — I had enough apparent social conformance that transitioning would jeapordize both career and prospects in relationships.

Of course it got to me eventually, but I wouldn't say I had reached a "transition or die" level of pressure even by 40. Still, I could feel it coming and was relieved to be able to ride a wave of social progress for the LGBT community while transitioning.

[Dianne S]

I really cannot understand how many of you could wait so long [...] Was it that you just did not realize it at that time?

Yes, for me I really did not realize it at that time. I thought I was "just" a cross-dresser.

Actually, from about 29 to 46 years of age, I hardly cross-dressed at all. I underdressed and wore nighties to bed, but did not go out presenting as female, and I grew a beard. We were raising three kids and had other stresses in our marriage that occupied my time and energy.

I only resumed going out as female about a year ago, and I was hit with a giant fist of gender dysphoria about 9 months ago. It was unbelievably powerful and I cannot understand how it remained submerged all these years... I really can't.

This also gives me tremendous doubts about transitioning. Is my dysphoria "real"? All I know is that when think I decide I won't transition, I start feeling rotten again and the dysphoria kicks in and I go back to wanting to transition.

[LeaP]

...You don't convert to female or gay because of some change in world views. It's not a conversion.

...

This is an interesting one. I sometimes wonder what suppression and repression really are. It's nothing of substance really it's a process or a mechanism but not in and of itself of value. Remember when I said about myself that I became the instrument of my own subjugation. I have no idea why we use these mechanisms to shovel untruth about ourselves into our own pocket. The interesting thing is that these are social mechanism, I reject the idea, that they are psychological. It is the fear of the freak when she stands in front of the mirror and someone might walk by behind and see what she sees.

Krisi's comment might be phrased in an unfortunate manner, but hers is essentially another version (albeit a more positive one) of the mental disorder or mid-life crisis explanation. It substitutes a decision or conversion experience for the irresistible motivational aspects of the others. Another, less savory version of the decision approach is the depraved, fetish manipulator who transitions to deceive men. All of them presume taking on a non-native identity. Doubtless the version that is selected depends on what naturally appeals to the observer. Someone intimately familiar with the religious conversion experience could easily project that onto transition motivation.

Kathryn, I have little doubt that fear and social motivations are important triggers, no matter whether considered as explicit, external fears or internalized mores, but I can tell you of my own hard experience that suppression and compartmentalization are real psychological phenomena. Many things can corrupt the mind. Violation of norms and expectations are among the most powerful. What starts out as – or is at least rooted in - social mechanics becomes a coping mechanism becomes corruption. This is seen in endless behavioral, adjustment, criminal, social and psychological variations.

... Which is why it is so interesting to pose Krisi's little statement against your comments on suppression or Jorja's wondering statement. Minimally, all of them call identity into question, if not outright challenge it's reality. Krisi's is obvious. Jorja asks in good faith, but the question's foundation is common among young transitioners. To wit, how can what is real and strong be held back for so long. I.e., maybe it's not real or wasn't intense?

Yours is more subtle and turns the approaches above on their heads. It invalidates a psychological coping mechanism in order to preserve the reality of the identity! It's as if you are expressing a concern that suppressing and compartmentalizing identity invalidates it somehow. There have been hints in this thread already as to where some people might take that, including the notions of dual and mixed identity. I know you reject that for transsexed people, though you accept for the gender variant. So your response is instead to question the reality of the coping mechanism to preserve the primacy of one identity.

But it is not necessary to do so. I can tell you with 100% certainty, out of my own experience that it is possible to do something, dismiss it, and not remember it. To box things up as "me" and "not me", real and unreal, permanent versus transitory. To build up these behaviors to where they are entirely unconscious. And that when you do, they are no different than any other aspect of your personality. Fully real and fully functioning in your day-to-day life. Moreover, that it is possible to accept the existence a false persona that has real world consequences, hence it's own reality as part of your identity in some ways, while maintaining that there is a core or foundational identity that is primary and which, when freed, can wipe the other away almost as if it never existed.

Surely this is why, in the end, what you do is more important than what you think when it comes to identity. Although it is true that the sense of what you are is inborn and cannot be changed, it is also true that every manifestation of its existence, whether good or bad, cis or not, normal or twisted, or something else, is a real part of you. Put another way, that means my "false" persona was a necessary – and real – manifestation of female identity for me. Not that it was female in itself in any conventional sense, of course, but that it came out of the combination of a female identity, male physical circumstances, and my psychological makeup. The "man" is just as real, in a way, as the woman. But that does not mean I have a mixed gender identity.

[Donna Joanne]

As I am one of only a few here that transitioned fairly early, age 22, I really cannot understand how many of you could wait so long. For me, it was a driving need, a must, I simply had to transition as soon as possible or die. How did you manage to put off the intense feelings for so long? I understand family obligations, career obligations etc... Was it that you just did not realize it at that time?

To answer your questions Jorja, I too have been thinking about transition since I was 16, but unfortunately we didn't have all the resources that are available today. But I did pursue further knowledge the best way I could. I remember writing to the only transsexual that I knew about at that time, Jill Munro, who wrote a column for an adult magazine in the 70's. She had the distinction of being the first MTF transsexual who was able to break into "mainstream" adult videos. She did write me back a personal response, and after telling me how much it would cost to transition, I lost all hope. I also had no one else to turn to. I sought counseling, and was told by a psychologist that "I should focus on finding a nice girl and put such thoughts out of my mind" and "that I was 17 and sexually confused". So three marriages and five kids (two bio and three step) later, I have finally been able to get the help and treatment I need to transition. My first marriage ended because she was a hetero woman and I could never be the man she wanted. My second marriage ended because she was a bisexual leaning more toward lesbian woman and I wasn't the woman she wanted. My current marriage is built on tenderness and love, and I feel quite sure it will survive my transition.

So this is my reason for not beginning transitioning until now. I can't speak for anyone else but myself, but I'm sure there are those out there who have a much more tragic story than mine. Not asking for sympathy, just wanted to honestly answer Jorja's question.

[Rachel Smith]

When I look back on it Jorga it makes me feel like crying, I was so miserable and unhappy.

Like others said fear was a huge one, along with not understanding what was really wrong. I just thought I was a sick, perverted, messed up person, that everyone would hate if they found out about me.



This would describe my experience. I mean who wants to be perceived as a sick pervert and I too felt that's what I was. So I succumbed to societies pressures to be normal. I found out normal for me is not normal. It makes me sad too to when I realize I spent most of my life sad and depressed not being able to fit into a mold. I have been internally happy or truly happy, whatever you want to call it, for almost 2 years now and it still feels new to me.

Edit:

Thought marriage would fix it, NOT. Don't get me wrong I loved my ex and honestly still do and wish her only the best. If I had been honest about all this we both would have been better off just being friends.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Lea that is how I experienced compartmentalization and denial..
I LITERALLY was not consciously able to think about my nature or my behavior...even though pretty much my entire internal private dialog was about being a girl..

I would see a transsexual woman on television or read about it in a magazine and I would not connect the dots from her to me even though I squirmed all night thinking about it, even though I earmarked the page in time magazine about some teacher that transitioned in 1972 and read the article almost every day for years!!!... and even tho sometimes I would wake up at 3am and put on my moms gowns (which she kept in the back of my closet!) and walk outside... then wake up the next morning smiling and not thinking about the craziness of it..

Another concrete example was I recall being out on a business lunch and we had a window table and two transgendered people walked by and went into lane Bryant... they didn't look very good and the guys noticed and there were lots of hearty laughs at them..
haha... anyway, it wasn't that I did or didn't chime in with their derisive comments...it was that I didn't think of myself... their laughter didn't make me feel bad.. it didn't apply to me...I was blocked...my nature was locked up tight in a box... the box was locked soooo tight .... now I think of it and it makes me sad..

I lived that way until I was in my 40's.. its hard for me to believe it myself so I can actually understand why others would not believe it..

I have spent time going back and trying to figure it all out but I don't think its time well spent..

[Kathryn Martin]

Yours is more subtle and turns the approaches above on their heads. It invalidates a psychological coping mechanism in order to preserve the reality of the identity! It's as if you are expressing a concern that suppressing and compartmentalizing identity invalidates it somehow. There have been hints in this thread already as to where some people might take that, including the notions of dual and mixed identity. I know you reject that for transsexed people, though you accept for the gender variant. So your response is instead to question the reality of the coping mechanism to preserve the primacy of one identity.

But it is not necessary to do so. I can tell you with 100% certainty, out of my own experience that it is possible to do something, dismiss it, and not remember it. To box things up as "me" and "not me", real and unreal, permanent versus transitory. To build up these behaviors to where they are entirely unconscious. And that when you do, they are no different than any other aspect of your personality. Fully real and fully functioning in your day-to-day life. Moreover, that it is possible to accept the existence a false persona that has real world consequences, hence it's own reality as part of your identity in some ways, while maintaining that there is a core or foundational identity that is primary and which, when freed, can wipe the other away almost as if it never existed.

Maybe I did not express myself very elegantly. Because what you describe in the second of the quoted paragraphs is nothing strange to me. In thinking about and feeling my way through all of the untruth I encountered in maintaining the survival of my self, I always experienced the mechanisms, the strategies, the tactical moves, that attempted to ensured survival in the most fundamental sense. I have always had the inability of not seeing or suppressing because of this procedural awareness. I used to call it my laughing double, who would pour sarcasm and contempt and rejection on any attempt to fudge the outlines or veil the reality.

Anyway, you and I, we need to talk more about this .......

[Marleena]

Just put me down as DUHHH. I only knew "I wanted to be a girl" back then and had no idea it was GD. I wish I had the clarity some of the ladies here had. I couldn't make sense of it all on my own. Only with the help of a therapist in the last couple years do I know what's going on, finally.

[Jorja]

Again, Thank You all for your responses to my question. I am learning a lot about late transition.

[KellyJameson]

Forget the physical body for a moment and ask the question of whether gender identity is fixed or fluid.

It's possible that it is both. For me it was fixed as female, evidenced by the pictures I drew at five years old specifically showing that all girls had a penis because I was a girl and so were they so they must have a penis.

At five years old it did not occur to me that I was anything but a girl but I had the genitalia backwards.

Of course this caused great consternation and hand wringing among the adults who made it clear I was not a girl because I did not have a vagina.

This opened the door to me looking for magical solutions to change my body to "be a girl" because "I was a girl"

My identity did not change but only my need to conform to adult definitions of what makes a girl a girl. I knew what I was as my identity so according to adults than it was only my body that was wrong not my identity.

My female identity was always there and extremely persistent in it's need to be acknowledged but so was my need to survive by avoiding social ostracism or putting my life at risk physically.

Ostracism is experienced by the brain the same way physical pain is. You will do whatever you have to do to avoid it until you transcend the pain experienced by it.

People move toward transitioning partly by how they learn to cope with pain ( by their relationship to and with pain). It is your relationship to pain that significantly defines the path taken in relation to transitioning. You are always trying to take the path of the least amount of pain experienced (pain avoidance) and why so many are driven to the edge before they make the plunge into transitioning.

Transitioning is not a choice but always defined by the circumstances that forces people to choose between different forms of pain, motivated by pain avoidance.

You transition or don't according to the dictates of pain, not choice. Contrasted against the will to live or the desire to die. You live with a sense of your own imminent destruction if you cannot fiqure out a solution soon but than seek escape from this realization by going into a blank non-thinking state.

You do not choose to transition or not but only choose between different forms of suffering as "pain management"

Getting married is a form of pain management. Using alcohol or drugs or sex is a form of pain management. Repression is a form of pain management. Until the identity is recognized and brought into physical being so that it can be lived, you only have "pain management"

Not living your identity equals pain and you pay in pain to transition. It leaves the person in the paradoxical position of suffering and than needing to suffer even more to escape the suffering. The whole thing seems like an exercise in insanity because you are going against the instinct to avoid pain such as risking humiliation or social ostracism.

The pain of unlived identity is held in tension against other forms of existential pain so the person lives in a perpetual state of crisis that clouds the mind causing confusion making the conscious interpretation of the pain almost impossible.

The subconscious seeks relief and understanding and will be drawn to answers. One form is the interest the person takes in those who transition. The mind wants understanding and relief but this is contrasted against the primordial fear of survival and avoidance of further suffering.

Gender dysphoria and life circumstances create a trap leaving the person constantly living between a rock and a hard place.

It is not about "becoming a woman" as creating a gender identity because the identity is already there but simply developing a healthy relationship to pain "as physical transition" to the point necessary and possible for each person instead of a unhealthy relationship to pain as alcoholism, repression, depression, anixety, suicide,ect..

Transsexuals are notoriously self destructive or at a minimum unstable for a reason.

I leaned toward being very unstable but largely avoided self destructive acts and I consider myself one of the lucky ones.

Those who have kept their gender identity fully conscious since early childhood did so because they avoided painful experiences that would have forced their identity underground into their subconscious. They probably had a safe environment where mine was very unsafe so I hide the truth.

The pain of not living their gender identity remained felt and known (conscious) because of the absence of other forms of pain that would have forced the mind to choose between various painful experiences resulting in "pain management"

Every transsexual practices some form of pain management so it becomes learning how to have a healthy form of pain management which usually means some form of transitioning.

Transitioning is escaping from pain by going into it.

The "becoming" is the changes brought about by the changes in attitude and relationship to and what they think is pain.

An example is the humiliation or rejection (pain) many go through to live their gender identity but yet they feel strong in face of this humiliation and rejection. Their lived identity protects them in that by living it they are experiencing less pain so can now tolerate more.

There are many varables leading down the path to transitioning but some aspects of the path must be walked by everyone.

A series of epiphanies that shapes what they are willing to suffer or not, changing how they manage and relate to pain and even what they define as painful.

[Aprilrain]

LOVE your new avatar!

Thanks:o

[Pink Person]

Cisgender men and women don’t change their gender. Transgender people are the only ones who sometimes transition from one relative transgender type to another. In addition, transgender transitions are never as dramatic as they are commonly described. We overstate the changes to validate our new selves and to validate the process of making changes. These are things that don’t require objective validation.

The sad truth for transgender people is that they are usually virtually invisible to themselves and everyone else. This can be a significant source of cognitive dissonance. We want to see our true selves and have them seen by other people. It’s a perfectly natural impulse that most people don’t have to struggle with very much. How we manage this problem varies from person to person. It doesn’t matter how you cope with the problem or when you cope with it as long as you are satisfied with your efforts and the outcome.

[Rianna Humble]

Pink, your assertions prove once and for all that you have absolutely no understanding of transsexuality.

This is not the "transgender" forum, and your words add nothing but to belittle the very real experience of a large proportion of the membership of this forum.

[Kathryn Martin]

Cisgender men and women don’t change their gender. Transgender people are the only ones who sometimes transition from one relative transgender type to another.

I am sorry but I have no idea what you that means when you say that transgender people transition from one transgender type to another.


In addition, transgender transitions are never as dramatic as they are commonly described. We overstate the changes to validate our new selves and to validate the process of making changes. These are things that don’t require objective validation.


Again, this makes absolutely no sense to me. What was the purpose of making this statement? - and in this context?


The sad truth for transgender people is that they are usually virtually invisible to themselves and everyone else. This can be a significant source of cognitive dissonance. We want to see our true selves and have them seen by other people. It’s a perfectly natural impulse that most people don’t have to struggle with very much. How we manage this problem varies from person to person. It doesn’t matter how you cope with the problem or when you cope with it as long as you are satisfied with your efforts and the outcome.

This is applicable to every person living on this planet that it is to the point of being trite.

[Frances]

I did not change my gender. I changed my sex. Then again, I am not a "transgender person."

[Jamie2]

I read all of the items in this thread, and could quote many of them word for word to tell my story.
I have just started this journey with the proper medical consults and DRs. guidance.

I too am a late in life transitioner, and am starting to feel better about myself now that I understand whats what.
Stay safe, and have FUN !!!

[Marleena]

@ Jorja

I'm curious how you managed to find transition help. Where you lived, etc. You can PM me if you like.

The first time I hit the wall, my ex- wife, a nurse, said that female hormones should help. It was pre-internet days and although we heard of "sex changes" I had no idea where to look for help and remain anonymous and not get commited.lol. It was scary.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

maybe pink you are the one projecting your own feelings about gender to validate yourself ..

all the ts women I know are pretty darn certain about what they are..

.....

the reason we as TS people share our stories is to help comfort people that may feel very alone in the feelings you aptly describe, and we share our stories to help give ideas to people about how to cope...

you are right that after the fact it doesn't matter how you got to point a to b...but if I have a problem(being ts) I sure as heck want to know how others dealt with the same problem..

[LeaP]

Interesting, I thought the response was thoughtful.

The notion of going from "one transgender type to another" is valid in a limited way. That is, considering being cross-sexed in some regards, even after SRS, one may be considered a trans woman or woman in a male body with male chemistry and configuration to a trans woman or woman in a male body with female chemistry and configuration. Trans-ness is a point of view (i.e., depending on context) that is as valid as no longer being trans. They can be mutually true. The problem (if you have one with this) is semantic, not conceptual. I don't particularly like the "transgender type" language in several respects either, but I think it does neatly capture the idea expressed above. ("One transsexual type to another" would have worked as well, however.)

Re: dramatic changes ... Yes and no. Logically this cannot mean physical changes, which are OFTEN dramatic. Ditto mental health. So I took this to mean core personality, and I'm inclined to agree.

I had to take some creative reading license with the invisibility comment. Kathryn, your comment about universality is true, but it is also true that many TS don't perceive how obvious their true gender is to others. How many instances have we all read of someone announcing a transition only to hear that someone responded with something like it was about time, I wondered when that would happen, that makes sense, etc. So from that perspective, some trans people are struggling to hide things that are, in fact, not so hidden? If this is what Pink intended (and I am guessing), no problem. I can, however, read some further implications that I don't like, including that the problem is ONLY a cognitive dissonance issue.

[sarahcsc]

As I am one of only a few here that transitioned fairly early, age 22, I really cannot understand how many of you could wait so long. For me, it was a driving need, a must, I simply had to transition as soon as possible or die. How did you manage to put off the intense feelings for so long? I understand family obligations, career obligations etc... Was it that you just did not realize it at that time?

Actually Jorja, for me, it was hope and lots and lots of distraction. I haven't undergone SRS but I am saving up money when the timing is right (and I don't know when), and I've been on formal HRT for 6 months and informal HRT for 2 years before I began formal HRT (I know, its bad. But I was desperate!)

I always hoped that "it" would pass when I hit a certain milestone in life but it never did. When I first realized it at age 7, I was baffled and frightened, but held out for puberty. When nothing changed during puberty, I held out for my first girlfriend, thinking that having a girl in my life would force me to stop. And when nothing changed after having my first girlfriend, I started to panic a bit, but I still held out hope for change because I thought this would go away when I meet my future wife. And when I met who I thought was my future wife (long boring story), I knew I had to tell her because I still couldn't get the idea out of my head and we broke up.

As you can see I used the word "it" instead of anything else because I don't believe I fit neatly into any diagnostic boxes and neither did I have words to describe "it" at the age of 7 except an urge to dress up and look like the opposite sex.

You can argue that this sounds like denial but I never denied that "it" existed except I always hoped that like a wandering traveler, "it" would stay for a while and move on when the seasons change.

There were a lot of distractions too which prevented me from focusing on myself. My family was pretty dysfunctional that they kept the drama coming while I created another perfect distraction which was my studies. Now that I've left home and finished medical school, I suddenly realized that there was very little to distract me from "it" and my thoughts.

But no, I was never as distressed as you Jorja. I can't explain why this is but maybe we're all on a severity spectrum where you are placed on the far end of being severely gender dysphoric.

=======

Everybody here is so well versed and knowledgeable with gender concepts and diagnostic criteria which never ceases to impress me. I am learning so much!

Patients often ask me what is wrong with them and why are they thinking the way they do and I generally offer them a broad formulation of what I think is the origins of their problems but very seldom do I give them a formal diagnosis unless they need it for social support or additional government funding. I refrain myself from labeling people because of the implications a mental health diagnosis can carry. But I can see why some patients are relieved upon receiving a formal diagnosis because it gave a name and a form to their disorder in which they could identify. After all, it is much more daunting fighting something you don't even know exist!

I think I've mentioned this before, that I wasn't terribly surprised when I was given the diagnosis of GD but I had to admit that I knew the criteria well and knew exactly what to say to my therapist. To me, it was merely a passport to HRT and I knew that I'd continue to self-medicate via other means if I didn't get the diagnosis. I understand the limitations of the current diagnostic classification systems and there will always be inherent flaws in those especially when we're trying to objectify a subjective experience. But at the same time, I had faith in the humaneness and intelligence of the therapist , so much so that I know that she won't attempt to reduce me to fixed set of criteria which was agreed upon by a group of middle-aged white psychiatrist in America.

She gave me the diagnosis, probably because she knew I needed it, not so much because I fitted it.

And as a therapist myself, I found myself doing the same for my patients too. I often reply "why do you want to know?" when they ask me for a diagnosis. I ask because a diagnosis will mean different things to different people. For some, it is a relief, while for others, it is curse. To give a diagnosis in the latter scenario is unwise and maybe even unethical because it often causes more harm than good.

To feel wanted and to feel like we belong is a basic human need. Children who are severely neglected emotionally during infancy actually die despite feeding. These children often just refuse to feed and die and even if they do feed, they have smaller head circumference and later develop cognitive disabilities. Therefore, it is not surprising that people with GD will do whatever it takes to earn acceptance and love even if it meant denying or repressing their true feelings because the other alternative is possibly death. Of course, this is also a double edged sword because a lifetime worth of denial and repression often leads to other problems as well both physiological and psychological.

=======

I continue to learn every day about myself and "it" and I suspect this is a never ending process. If you asked me, I don't want to be defined nor do I want to fit in a box. So what if it offers me a "peace of mind" knowing what I've got when it denies me authenticity. Late-onset or early-onset TS is immaterial because it rarely translates into any real life contribution. What translates into real life utility is my resilience (to bounce back every time I fall), my courage (to press on in the presence of fear), and my ability to tolerate the unknown (to be constantly curious and willing to learn and adapt).

It matters little what diagnosis your therapist or whatever forum(s) assign you compared to the diagnosis you assign yourself.

Don't you think? :)

Love,
Sarah

[kimdl93]

First, my obligatory disclosure. I do not consider myself TS, but rather a middle pather with a rather pronounced slice...towards the TS side of the gender identity spectrum. Sarah's use of "it" resonates with me. For most of my early life I had no appropriate term in my vocabulary and the one supplied by siblings...houseboy...seems terribly demeaning. I tried to compensate for or disguise whatever behaviors I'd exhibited that lead to that label.

Later, I learned the terms used to describe transsexuals, but little else, and feared that, given the chance, I might be one of them. Fear and a desire for all the things humans need...approval, companionship, career, children, these kept me from more openly and honestly facing the person I was.

And the results were mixed. I got married, had kids, a career, a network of friends....and a dull ache, an inexplicable volatility and a measure of self loathing. I didn't begin to escape the latter elements until I began to accept myself.

Am I becoming a woman? Not really. I feel I'm revealing myself after a long burial in the sediments of repression. Rather an appropriate analogy because I'm something of a fossil. After all these millennia, I'm mostly silicafied, but a little of the DNA remains.

[Kathryn Martin]

It matters little what diagnosis your therapist or whatever forum(s) assign you compared to the diagnosis you assign yourself.

Don't you think? :)

Love,
Sarah

I understand your thought, but I have one caveat: is experience of self a diagnosis of a condition. For me these were two different things.

There are very subtle layers to the experience of my self in the reality of my life. One (and by no means the only) aspect of self experience is the experience of the relationship between I and world. I was born as a girl, which does not mean I knew I was sexed from the earliest conscious moment. My gendered experience of self arise from a conditioned response of the world to my genitals. For me the experience of my body being part of the world was early and very strong because my body lied about my self. My socialization, as a result, was gendered male. The clash between this and my experience of self was evident as early as eight years of age which is the time my consciousness began to be aware of my reproductive reality. I once wrote this:

In unremembered distances
When the first rumblings
Of a world below the belt
Crashed consciousness, I said
I am who I am


Yet the World said
It’s not a world but you!


surrounded by so little
before I saw the abyss in every direction
and that world, a part of World but not me;


Truth told I, but body belied

KMD (c)

Experience of self is a living reality not a diagnosis. We cannot diagnose ourselves because the criteria for diagnosis are set against an objective standard. I was diagnosed as a moderate intensity transsexual or Type 5 HBS transsexual against criteria of not my own making. The criteria however, while including DSM descriptors and conditions, go far beyond just that.

The real diagnosis of the reality if self does not come from the medical style diagnosis but rather how the reality of experience of self is witnessed by the world in which you live. While this a confirmatory process it is the most accurate than anything else including our self experience which is always subject to self delusion.

Anyway - what do you think Sara?

[arbon]

The real diagnosis of the reality if self does not come from the medical style diagnosis but rather how the reality of experience of self is witnessed by the world in which you live. While this a confirmatory process it is the most accurate than anything else including our self experience which is always subject to self delusion.




Krisi's comment might be phrased in an unfortunate manner, but hers is essentially another version (albeit a more positive one) of the mental disorder or mid-life crisis explanation. It substitutes a decision or conversion experience for the irresistible motivational aspects of the others. Another, less savory version of the decision approach is the depraved, fetish manipulator who transitions to deceive men. All of them presume taking on a non-native identity. Doubtless the version that is selected depends on what naturally appeals to the observer. Someone intimately familiar with the religious conversion experience could easily project that onto transition motivation.




Y'all are making my head hurt!

Why does it need to be so complicated?

[sarahcsc]

I understand your thought, but I have one caveat: is experience of self a diagnosis of a condition. For me these were two different things.

There are very subtle layers to the experience of my self in the reality of my life. One (and by no means the only) aspect of self experience is the experience of the relationship between I and world...

...Experience of self is a living reality not a diagnosis. We cannot diagnose ourselves because the criteria for diagnosis are set against an objective standard. I was diagnosed as a moderate intensity transsexual or Type 5 HBS transsexual against criteria of not my own making. The criteria however, while including DSM descriptors and conditions, go far beyond just that.

The real diagnosis of the reality if self does not come from the medical style diagnosis but rather how the reality of experience of self is witnessed by the world in which you live. While this a confirmatory process it is the most accurate than anything else including our self experience which is always subject to self delusion.

Anyway - what do you think Sara?

Hi Kathryn,

I'm not quite sure what you're saying Kathyrn... so please correct me if I'm wrong but I believe you're saying that there is a fundamental difference between a "diagnosis" and the "experience of self", right? And that the latter is the result of a dynamic interaction between you and the world you live in?

I'm sure you are right, Kathryn. "I think, therefore I am" said the famous philosopher René Descartes. You know that you exist because you are thinking but the rest is up for interpretation. A "diagnosis" is but a human construct which pales in comparison to your internal reality (the way you experience yourself and the world you live in). A "diagnosis" is assigned to you and you have the option to accept or reject it and even so, acceptance or rejection causes little change to your internal reality. A "diagnosis" is an attempt, albeit quite a flawed and futile attempt, to put into words your internal reality for the sake of convenience so that we can use these words as a referrence point in the real world. For example, I can't put down "Sarah's internal reality" on my driver's license under the the gender section because the road cop would be baffled!

A diagnosis will always fall short of the real thing, that is your internal reality, which is yours and yours exclusively. And any attempts to describe it with words is going to be met with failure but we do it nonetheless because otherwise we would have no ways of interacting with the world we live in.

The question is, why do people focus so much on a "diagnostic label" despite knowing its inherent and irrepairable flaws?

I have some rough ideas why, but what do you think?

Love,
Sarah

[Frances]

People focus on the diagnostic label so much for the same reason they hang on to the idea of having an atypical kariotype. It has a lot to do with legitimacy in the context of repudiation from others and the lack of desire to take responsability for their lives. It's much easier say: "see, the doctors say I have a problem." Ultimately, however, transition is a decision (if transsexuality is not) and people are going to get hurt (most of the time).

[LeaP]

Terrific response, Frances.

Kathryn, there is no such diagnosis. Even taking a definitional (and proper) approach broader than one of the frameworks like the DSM, Benjamin's type classification (which was intended as a diagnostic AID) is far too loose and is not in itself a classification of conditions or diagnoses. Benjamin himself said almost all patients would cross categories. And it includes aspects which are quite outdated besides.

In my opinion, about the closest you can get to something like a diagnosis from Benjamin's scale are the groups. Group one is "transvestites." Group 2 is "transsexuals, nonsurgical." Group 3 is "true transsexuals." In more modern usage, I might rename group one "cross-dressers and fetishists." (Benjamin conflates these.) Group 2 would be "gender variant." And group 3 would be "transsexual." Those original groups are the primary groups we still talk about today! If you abandon the antiquated language, it rather pops into view!

[Pink Person]

I use the word transgender in its inclusive sense that describes people with transgender and/or transsex issues. I do this because sex is a subset of gender, and sex and gender issues are often interrelated even when they are not intersecting.

No one has to agree with my point of view or get hysterical about it.

I find the whole notion of men changing into women (and vice versa) to be absurd and derogatory in all its variations. If someone is a transwoman after modifications then you can be certain they weren’t all manly before them. Cismen (and ciswomen) don’t participate in these types of transformations.

For some transgender people, putting on a dress or a dress and a new body is all about communicating something to themselves and to other people that can’t otherwise be seen. The unseen you, the core beneath your shell, doesn’t transform very easily. Our shell selves are relatively mutable, but our core selves persist in comparison.

Shell transformations are important because they tell us something about a person’s core identity that doesn’t change as much. Prattle about becoming something you are not or being something you are not diminishes the core identities of transgender people of every stripe. I take it for granted that transgender people are not all the same, even though this concept seems to be incomprehensible to some of you.

[Rachel Smith]

Kelly your post #69 is great. The way you refer to pain and pain management as a way to cope is very astute IMO. Something I have never pondered but perhaps I should have. Thank you for bringing it to light.

[Kathryn Martin]

A diagnosis will always fall short of the real thing, that is your internal reality, which is yours and yours exclusively. And any attempts to describe it with words is going to be met with failure but we do it nonetheless because otherwise we would have no ways of interacting with the world we live in.

The question is, why do people focus so much on a "diagnostic label" despite knowing its inherent and irrepairable flaws?

I have some rough ideas why, but what do you think?

Love,
Sarah

Sarah, one of the reasons that diagnoses fall short of the real thing is because there are generalized criteria which describe the condition. If you come with a certain narrative then the diagnostician will diagnose with what this narrative describes. I could narrate a set of "facts" which would lead inevitably to a diagnosis of cancer. This would be followed up with tests which then would show that cancer is not present. The fallacy of a psychological diagnosis is that there are no tests which would rule out the condition that was tentatively diagnosed. For instance your carotype if tested will show that you have xy chromosomes (in most cases at least), which is no help in this instance.

But what is the narrative that really indicates you are transsexual? Much of what is the common narrative has little or nothing to do with the transsexual condition. Because the narrative is perpetuated over the internet, albeit increasingly refined, they jarr the listener.

But what if the observer(s) (note the switch in activity) actually witnesses you as you truly are. And all of the sudden the world actually speaks with you with all of it's wonders and terrors, not because you describe the right things but because they realize the living reality?

The reason why people find a "diagnosis" so important is because it provides a medical justification for the dissociation of the perception of the individual who is being observed. It excuses their oddness.




Kathryn, there is no such diagnosis.

Lea, with all respect to you this was exactly how I was diagnosed, with those words with the add on of meeting DSM 4 criteria for gender identity disorder (still valid in 2011) and lack of Axis 1 and 2 criteria.

To both of you: I find diagnoses important for procedural, that is gatekeeping, reasons. It opens the door for Standards of Care applications. The most detrimental effect of diagnoses however is that most people take them to absolve them from responsibility for their own self. The all so common effects of transition of loneliness, retreat, anger, sensitivity to perceived slights and micro aggressions, have much to do with last point.



I do this because sex is a subset of gender, and sex and gender issues are often interrelated even when they are not intersecting.

Wow Pink, that really is turning the world on it's head. Sex determines what gender you are, given that gender is a complete social construct created to set off the sexes. That is the only interrelation.

[kathtx]

As I am one of only a few here that transitioned fairly early, age 22, I really cannot understand how many of you could wait so long. For me, it was a driving need, a must, I simply had to transition as soon as possible or die. How did you manage to put off the intense feelings for so long? I understand family obligations, career obligations etc... Was it that you just did not realize it at that time?

Good question with no simple answer. At 22 I was in denial, telling myself this was just a crossdressing thing. I'd contemplate transition but then push the thought away. Because I was (and still am) attracted only to women, I'd assumed transition would cut off any relationship possibilities. It took me a while to realize that, duh, I didn't have to stay male to have a female partner. Seems obvious in hindsight, but it was a big worry for me. Otherwise, there were just many other things to deal with at that age: getting through grad school, recovering from the aftereffects of adolescence in a dysfunctional family, episodes of severe depression. Many things on my plate, of which gender dysphoria was only one. Transition didn't become a driving need until my early 30s, when I'd worked through most of the other issues.

[sarahcsc]

People focus on the diagnostic label so much for the same reason they hang on to the idea of having an atypical kariotype. It has a lot to do with legitimacy in the context of repudiation from others and the lack of desire to take responsability for their lives. It's much easier say: "see, the doctors say I have a problem." Ultimately, however, transition is a decision (if transsexuality is not) and people are going to get hurt (most of the time).

Hi Frances,

Your observation is astute but the very same observation raises other important questions.

"How much responsibility should a person assume over their lives?" and "When does it become appropriate for them to relinquish responsibility or have their responsibility taken forcibly by society?"

The idea of responsibility is closely linked to the idea of freedom as the famous saying goes "with freedom comes responsibility". Therefore, if what you said was true, that if a patient's wish to hold on to a diagnosis is because of lack of desire to take responsibility for their lives, you must assume that they are also giving up their freedom to be. This certainly can't be good... or is it?

Coming from the East, I can't help but be astonished at times the amount of freedom people get in the West, yet be baffled by the lack of responsibility they assume. Why is this? There seems to be a lot of advocacy for "freedom" in the West particularly in America (please correct me if I'm wrong) but I wonder if I can say the same for "responsibility". Freedom was not given to me, I had to earn it. And even so, I had to be very careful with it because it can be taken away very easily by my parents or society. The culture of children moving out of their homes when they hit a certain age was certainly foreign to me because it is just not customary for Asians in general to move out unless they have earned their freedom (i.e. good job, stable income, getting married, wanting to build a family) and this could take many years which explains why some middle age Asian males continue to live with their parents. How much responsibility do you think these males have over the course of their lives?

I bring this up because your observation although astute, forgotten to mention the real reason why people are so reluctant to take responsibility for their lives and that is because of fear. Responsibility is the ultimate test reality throws at you. Like a bird who is about to flap its wings for the first time but at the same time daunted by the sheer cliff it was about to plunge off. A person who is refusing to take responsibility, to me, is just a person who is scared. And sometimes they are scared because of their fear of falling, but sometimes also because of how far they think they might fly (and subsequently never return).

Perhaps, just perhaps, I'm saying this with a lot of skepticism on my part as well, that for these people, a diagnosis, serves as a temporary platform in midair, kind of like a floating airstrip where the bird can first try out its wings by leaping instead of flying. The airstrip catches them, and once again gives them the option of attempting flight when they are sure their wings are functional. Its an odd analogy but its the best I can come up with, sorry... There is certainly a danger that they will remain on the airstrip forever and not wanting to attempt flight but what do you do about that? Because if you advocate for "freedom", can you not also advocate for the freedom to give up freedom? Its mind boggling...

I've seen many of my patients who appeared relieved following an initial diagnosis, only to disavow it later because they have transcended the need for that. Then there are those who know the DSM V manual better than I do but totally ignored it because none of the criterias apply to them. Or those who are hellbent on getting diagnosed. So what does a diagnostic label mean to them? The airstrip in midair that is neither helpful nor unhelpful. But to a therapist, their need for a diagnostic label informs me of the kind of person they are. And I am open minded to whoever I'm treating because I understand very well that every individual brings along their fears of taking responsibility and I recognize that my role as a therapist, is to help patients transcend their fear and most importantly, NOT judging them.

That fear is not transcultural as far as I know because in Asian cultures, children are normally very well prepared before they are allowed to take on responsibilities. Moreoever, they have to prove their ability to take on responsibilities before they are given the freedom. Hitting a certain age means little or nothing in my culture. There's no such thing as a "sweet 16" or a big "21st birthday". Freedom and responsibility doesn't come with age, it comes with acquired achievements. No achievements means no freedom. Lol. I invite other Asian forum users (or from other cultures) to critique my statements because I may be highly biased in this. I can only speak from my experience and what I understand about traditional Chinese culture.

And as with the other question I asked "When does it become appropriate for them to relinquish responsibility or have their responsibility taken forcibly by society?", I thought about people who are either so destructive to themselves or to others that freedom is simply something that society cannot afford to give. Depressed people who are acutely suicidal, the psychotic person who lost contact with reality, the psychopathic murderer, or the genocidal dictator. But what about the compulsive cheater who go around breaking hearts with little remorse? Or the narcissistic person at work who puts people down in order to elevate their own status? The backstabbing friend at school? Society as a whole decides when to take a person's responsibility/freedom depending on the severity of their actions.

Remember Alan Turing? Hailed as a hero of WWII for decoding Nazi secret messages, he was also chemically castrated because he was homosexual. That is how far society will go to take away a person's freedom back in the days. I'm glad things are changing albeit too slow for my liking! Lol..

So coming back to the original topic: To me, a person's who rely on a diagnostic label to conduct their lives is probably too afraid to fly, but not too afraid to leap. Some people continue to live productive lives bearing a diagnostic label while some are totally disabled by it either by true or imagined disability. It is not up to me to judge if what they are doing is right or wrong because I sincerely believe that everybody should be allowed the freedom to live lives however they want to as long as they are not causing harm to themselves or others. I also believe that with time and opportunity, they will eventually transcend the need for a diagnosis and learn to live a truly authentic life. I'm still learning in many ways to do that myself and I am humbled by how convinced some people are of their identities. :)




The reason why people find a "diagnosis" so important is because it provides a medical justification for the dissociation of the perception of the individual who is being observed. It excuses their oddness.

...I find diagnoses important for procedural, that is gatekeeping, reasons. It opens the door for Standards of Care applications. The most detrimental effect of diagnoses however is that most people take them to absolve them from responsibility for their own self. The all so common effects of transition of loneliness, retreat, anger, sensitivity to perceived slights and micro aggressions, have much to do with last point.



I've mentioned my take on the psychological implications of a "diagnosis" but also mentioned earlier in post #79 about the practical implications as well, which you have touched on here as well. In the real world, you can't get help unless you are given a diagnostic label and that must be accepted. Like me, you are also aware of the potential detrimental effect of a diagnostic label but again, that risk is inevitable therefore it is better to learn to accept and manage it rather than trying to avoid it altogether.

As to what you said about it being a "medical justification for the dissociation of the perception of the individual who is being observed. It excuses their oddness.", I think I may have to disagree with that one. Because what is more attention drawing than to have a big diagnostic label attached to you? Odd people, although less accepted, are nonetheless tolerated. However, attach a diagnostic label to them like "Gender Dysphoria" or "schizophrenia" will result in downright abhorrence and rejection. It probably draws more attention to the oddness than anything else! And worse, it opens up the oddness to more negative interpretation. Don't you agree?

Another problem I see sometimes in my practice, is the lack of continuity of care. I imagine a good therapist is one who takes into consideration the practical and psychological implications of a diagnostic label before dishing it out to their patients. Also, a good therapist tries their best to help their patients make well informed decisions, which includes telling them that things aren't necessarily going to get better following the diagnosis or even after transitioning. But most importantly, when it comes to continuity of care, the therapist has a role and responsibility to help their patients manage their mental health prior and after transition as part of the transitioning process. To simply apply a diagnostic label and then leave them is in a way, very irresponsible. But that's just me being idealistic perhaps.

Love,
Sarah

[Frances]

My response was not that philosphical. It was more an obersavation on the "my wife won't let me" comments that I hear all the time on this forum. It's easier to say that than acknowledging fear and guilt. There is no blood test and lots of people will not believe the transitioner, especially relatives and close friends. A diagnosis makes it easier to sell it. Incidently, I went through a very rigourous gatekeeping style of program. I was never given a diagnosis.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I was never given a diagnosis (what I mean to say is that my path was chosen BY ME..at which point I got a letter that technically would be the diagnosis)

In psychiatry is it "anxiety" or "depression" or both? I realize there are standards that are usually followed, but they are different by country, and there is a lot of leeway in how doctors apply them.. then there is the issue of what to do about it....for depression and anxiety there is a laundry list of medicines and therapies that work for each, and many doctors use their experience to decide how to advise their patients, and will use medicines that are not prescribed for the official diagnosis...

unfortunately my family has a history of dealing with this and after 4 medicines and 3 psychiatrists I found a cocktail of meds that improved my quality of life, and the cocktail included one medicine that is totally off label for my situation but has been shown to help and it hugely improved my quality of life!!!

I think this is applicable to this discussion the idea of a purely medical diagnosis for transsexuality.
I believe transsexuality is a medical condition...but there is no more magic to it than being diagnosed with depression or anxiety disorder...
and its not always easy to diagnose, and then the whole what to do about it part can be very easy or very hard depending on the person.... that's why personal responsibility is so hugely important..

for me to take paxil or Prozac or abilify of Ativan are all things that I can test by just taking a pill... whether I do cognitive, ACT or mindfulness therapy are things that are easy to try on for size and see if I progress.... but its still my responsibility to report back to my doctor how I felt on the paxil... its my responsibility to apply the therapies suggested by my doctors, and the doctor still has to make judgments on the veracity of my statements and decisions about proper dosages....I think its all applicable to what goes on with us...

I never even thought of the idea of a diagnosis....maybe that's because throughout my therapy I kept trying to poke holes in the idea I was transsexual....my own nature is pragmatic and an intuitive decision maker....I do not like being told what to do....I had a good therapist and she "learned me" she never said to me "you are a...." ....she didn't lead me to water, but she kept it close enough for me to find the water and in my own specific case, my therapy simply helped me take responsibility for my own life... my therapist says today, "oh for sure I diagnosed you as transsexual"...but her feeling is never to say that to the patient...its too powerful...its her belief the person has to get there themselves because if they cant, then they are not ready to deal with it...

if you can't take personal responsibility for simply naming what it is that you are , then you are not ready to own it, and you are not ready for the responsibility of dealing with it...especially if its transition..

in the end, that is what this is all about... taking responsibility for your own life... its sooo hard to get there...read the posts... we are all over the map with how we get there!!!

that's a testament to the difficulties of getting well if you have this fricking problem many of us share, and its why I tend to have huge respect for transsexuals that are able to live a great quality of life ..

.

[Marleena]

It was more an obersavation on the "my wife won't let me" comments that I hear all the time on this forum. It's easier to say that than acknowledging fear and guilt. There is no blood test and lots of people will not believe the transitioner, especially relatives and close friends. A diagnosis makes it easier to sell it.

This sounds an awful lot like me. When I first started in this section I used my diagnosis to try and show I belonged here. That diagnosis was reached by my support group leader who I turned to for help. She had all the health care connections that could help me with the GD. I remember her saying "you appear to be transsexual" and that scared me. I remember telling her I didn't want to be transsexual! I wanted a different answer. I was looking for somebody to tell me it wasn't true and that never happened. I began to realize it's the only thing that makes sense for me though. Some of you had absolute clarity while I just couldn't understand what was going on with me. I just knew it was gender issues.

[LeaP]

Kathryn, I know that is how you were diagnosed. My comment was that it was not really a proper diagnosis. The DSM portion of the diagnosis was perfectly appropriate. And it, of course, was important most of all because it provided access to care, not because it defines the condition… Which it does not, as you know. The "type five" add on, however, does not describe the condition at all. It is a loose collection of behavioral, physical, intensity, sexual, and other such things lumped into observational categories. The only condition – actual condition – that you have, especially with the lack of comorbid issues (which are really a separate set of considerations anyway) is that you are transsexed. Intensity itself is not a condition so much as it is a treatment consideration. As with many other medical conditions, many manifest over a range of intensity. Same condition and sometimes requiring treatment, sometimes not.

The most important part of the Benjamin scale is the groups. One is transvestites, two is nonsurgical transsexuals, three is true transsexuals. If you bring the terminology up-to-date, it basically boils down to cross-dressers and fetishists (Benjamin conflates these), gender variant, and transsexual. I.e. the same things we are still talking about today, and which Benjamin separates along treatment lines, supporting a point you often make.

[Beth-Lock]

For the first ten years of my life, nobody in my neck of the woods knew that you could change sex. Christine Jorgenson offered us rumours about sex change, though it was thought a joke, and only when I was already ten years old. Psychologistsin those days were consumed with the idea that the individual should adjust to their situation, and understand what their situation was, as society defined it, and the job of the psychologist was to help the patient adjust. The psychologist treated maladjustment. Cross-dressing was bad, because so their script went, it broke up marriages, so the job of the psychologist was to get the patient to stop it, and save their marriage.

It was difficult to avoid repression, when there was no name or concept in the conscious world to give on a handle to grasp the reality of the transsexuals' being. I think the younger members do not understand why so many late transitions are only taking place now, and these few remarks might lead them back to some historical research in that line. Many think the flow of late transitioners will decloine, as people are starting to be able to transition earlier, and have ready models to understand whether they are trans or not, to the point of commencing analytical and diagnostivc therapy before say, retirement/senior years. When I was young, it was thought that there was no reason to rebel, because society was not flawed in its social psychology. Even political rebellion might sometimes be traced back to a deprived childhood, as in "Come Over Red Rover," a case of Lindner. Therefore, there was the "Rebel Without a Cause," accoirding to that 1940's prison psychiatist,( Robert Lindner). (He worked his way past that point in his thinking, just before he died of cancer.)

[Rianna Humble]

This thread is so far from its origins, I'm not sure if you could get back even with a Sat Nav. Time to close it.

If you want to continue discussing the philosophy of diagnosis in relation to TS folk, please start a thread about that. Equally if someone wants to discuss the doctrine of personal responsibility, they can start another separate thread about that insofar as it relates to transsexuality.