Just another rant....

[DanielleLee]

This post is a response to the "Rant" thread and the thread topic in the Loved Ones section called "The Price of not telling your Wife".

Disclaimer: My wife knew I liked to cross dress on occasion before we married. She thought it was funny and constrained to Halloween. Three years later in the midst of a pink fog... she let me know that she thought my behavior was disgusting. I'm now in a DADT relationship.

As you can tell from my 110-120 posts in the five years I've been a member... I'm not a big on responding to topics or posting new ones. That's unusual because I write a blog and have a FB page for it... in other words I like to write. What finally compelled me to post here today, is the ongoing harassment I have observed of members that are closeted and the ongoing GG worship.

I'm tired of those who feel it necessary to be nasty to those who are closeted. You know what? It's none of our business why someone chooses to be closeted. None of us knows each other's situation.... therefore calling someone a cowardly liar or even insinuating they are for not telling their spouse is way off base. Police your own house and make sure everything is "perfect", before you go "labeling" others.

I'm sick of the "Gurls" that put all of the Forum GGs on pedestals. Stop kissing their butts and trying to make yourself look better "cause you get it" or by golly, GGs are never wrong. For the love, please just stop. It's ridiculous. GGs are no more, or no less, perfect than we are. We all make mistakes and have things we keep to ourselves.

This is supposed to be a safe haven for ALL cross dressers, not just the group that is out and about. It's a place also where Loved Ones, Significant Others and even ourselves can be educated. A place where we can talk about what it is that we do and hopefully... try to understand ourselves & each other along the way.

Most importantly, it's a place where we ALL should be speaking respectfully to one another. Period. End of story.

Oh, as far actual Price of Telling your wife?

Reality...

1) Distrust and living in a bubble because of the elephant in the room.
2) Divorce? Not being able to see your kids everyday?
3) She lives with it and secretly (or not so secretly) hates it.
4) any number of possibilities that are less than desirable.

Rarity
1) She loves it! New Shopping buddies!

Look after being here for five years... I absolutely think we should be honest with a new SO. We all now know that it's the right thing to do. I think most of us would.
But for those who didn't a long time ago? It may be not be an option. Don't make those members feel less, because they can't bring themselves to do so... especially the older forum members. Society has come along way with acceptance, but back when some of the senior members were in their 20s, 30s and 40s... there was no Internet and Society wasn't what it is now.

Danielle Lee

[Katey888]

Danielle.... :huggles

As one of our resident 'Closet Queens' (I'm fine with that... :)) can I say, you may just have become my current favourite low-poster... :D

But I suspect there may be different opinions - and I look forward to seeing all of them being respectfully put...

Katey x

[samantha rogers]

I agree 100%. In fact I just posted a couple of entries on another thread and topic to much the same affect. Judging others sucks. Lol

[RADER]

I come to this forum to learn and get confidence in me on the effect that I am not
the only pebble on the beach.
Yes I am a closet person, I chose to stay that way for my own reasons.
I envy all those that can pass in any way; I would love to leave this closet,
But I am not the least bit fem by any stretch of immigration.
Danielle Lee, I enjoyed your "RANT" and I con-cure in many ways, My first wife
was very unkind and not understanding at all....We where divorced after 9 years
of unhappiness.
My second wife was totally opposite, she was OK with my dressing, with a few
rules, and we where married for over 9 years before she passed on.
I wish I could find another like her, she was the one in a Million.
Rader

[Beverley Sims]

I don't see any reason for nastiness to anyone here, maybe if they have a contra view, a little sympathy and understanding of their problem would help.

[PaulaQ]

I think what's just as hurtful, and I know, because I've experienced this - is telling someone who's marriage falls apart over their gender variance that:

"Well, CDing ALONE almost NEVER is the real reason for a divorce!" The implication being that:

"YOUR MARRIAGE SUCKED!"

This is a very cruel thing to tell someone who may well be grieving the loss of a long and otherwise happy marriage.

Those of you who have happy marriages despite dealing with a gender variant spouse, and I know there are some of you, just know that you are very fortunate people. Not everyone is so lucky.

oh you can also telling us TSs that we are undesirable as partners. "Of course someone who transitions can't expect their marriage to continue." yeah, we get it. we get told nobody wants us by the rest of the world. We got the memo, you don't need to tack it on to the end of your posts. thanks.

[DanielleLee]

Thank you all for posting. Knowing that each of us is different on the gender spectrum, we all need to respect each others views, opinions, and choices. Most certainly we need to refrain from ostracizing or hurting one another. And Rader... I've only ever heard you speak of your departed wife with love, respect and always in kindness. I do hope you meet another like her.

[natcrys]

*slow claps*

Thanks for writing what has been on my mind as well for the last few weeks.

[AngelaYVR]

Well said. Being new to this forum I have not had enough time to get a feel for it but from experience I suspect the majority of CDs keep their wives etc in the dark about their proclivities. My first wife would have made my life hell if she had known.

Angela xx

[~Joanne~]

Danielle, I agree with your post 100%.

Some girls here have been married many years before this thing may have even developed. It may have started with one item and just expanded to places they didn't think it was going to go. Me for instance, it started with pantyhose. It started as a fetish,then a curiousity, then it started to become something more, then other items were added, then.....you get the idea.

Yes, everyone should probably put it on the table, especially before marriage if possible, but for the reasons you listed (and probably many more) sometimes that just isn't possible and no one should be shot down because of it. We ALL started as closeted Dressers. I hate to break that to you, but you did. I am sure no one woke up one day, dressed in female labelled clothing and said to hell with it I am going out dressed this way and I don't care who likes it.

I really do agree with the "GG on a pedestal" part also. I have always felt this way about some of the posts that I have read. Don't get me wrong, there are some GREAT GG's here (not naming them) that really are helpful, insightful, and really seem to understand the in's and out's of this, not only to themselves but to us as well.

Then there are just as many that are scorn, confused, betrayed, and a whole host of things and their sole purpose is to belittle us, make us feel ashamed, and try to convice us that what we are doing is wrong. I fully understand that they didn't sign on for this, to be honest, neither did we, it developed on it's own in some way shape or form. If We fully understood this and had the answers, I am sure we'd share them with you, but we don't. Hence the reason we are all here together, to learn and share. Not to fight it out like keyboard bullies.

All in all, if we can't get along together, how is the world ever going to?

[paulaprimo]

great thread and i couldn't agree with you more! like in everything and anything there are rotten apples, and yes there are some here.
in my early days here when i was a newbie and still in the closet, i spoke from the heart and what was on my mind. i found out early on
that if you said the wrong thing your pm box would quickly fill with nasty comments. this kinda pushed me further back into the closet.
people need to respect other peoples views, thought, ideas, comments, and not attack them if they don't agree. a healthy discussion
in the open forum is much more helpful, beneficial and educational, especially for the newer members. nothing should be black or white
or set in stone. so big thanks to the other 99% of the girls who are extemely nice, helpful and supportive and helped me to kick down my
closet door. :)

[phylis anne]

Well spoken Danielle lee,
Most of the people with the opinnions and remarks you have mentioned are most likely just as in the closet as a lot of ,they are miserable and not happy unless all of us are .Knowing my family like I do I value them no matter their shortfalls my interest in dressing is far from that important to act selfishly and demand thye accept me .we are a somewhat disfunctional family at times but I would rather bear that than the forever silence from them if I pushed my issue on them . As far as the nastiness on the board no matter what forum you go to you will find some at least on here the mods try and keep peace with us all and correct those of us who stray making this a fairly enjoyable place to hang out phylis anne

[MsVal]

MsVal's anti-rant:

Dear, this is a forum, after all. It is a place for open discussion. As such, many different thoughts will be posted. Some people will agree, some will disagree, but all can benefit from the exchange of ideas and the resultant discussions over the ideas' validity or lack thereof.

While discussing these ideas, I hope that we all agree that we should contend without being contentious, disagree without being disagreeable. We should respect each other and avoid projecting our own vision of propriety onto others.

I think that last part, respect and projection, are points where some of us need self examination.

(We now return to our original rant about a previous rant...)

[Isabella Ross]

Danielle, I do agree with what you've written. I just want to clarify one point: in the short time I've been here, I've seen many posts from those weighing the possible consequences of disclosing to an SO. The reason for the posts almost always seems to be an overwhelming desire to disclose -- they're unhappy living a secret life, and they want to get a point in their lives where they feel good about themselves -- one where they can stop hiding everything related to their fem side. Holding them back are, of course, the possible negative ramifications. Like many others on this forum, I speak from experience, and I can honestly say that if I hadn't been pushed by my own mentor, I'd have never disclosed to my wife, and consequently, I'd still be living a pretty miserable existence instead of experiencing the harmony that I now have. So I'm not going to hold back dispensing the "disclose" advice if I think I see someone who believes that's the right thing to do, and is just looking for a push or some confirmation as they contemplate telling their SO. But absolutely, absolutely, I will strive to:

1) dispense that advice only where I think it might do some good
2) deliver it in a manner that is gentle, entirely respectful, and non-confrontational
3) remember that every one of us, and every situation, is unique.

The bottom line is that regardless of what's being said on this forum, it should be done with the utmost respect for our fellow members. In a short time, I have discovered this is such a nice little e-haunt, with such nice people...I hope we can all keep it that way.

[Melissa_Rose]

I am new here.. and don't post often . But there is a huge difference between difference of opinions and being made to feel in anyway less of a person or chastised for your decisions.
I read alot of posts and comments that are often very intolerant of others views or choices. Ironically, we as a collective group beg society for tolerance and acceptance, but yet sometimes that same tolerance and acceptance isn't applied to members here.
I came to this forum for some form of connection with others. My first 20 posts were moderated, moved or deleted. Questions I asked I was simply told to search old threads. I understand rules and the need to avoid repeating topics, so I simply quit posting and read only.
It's tough when you even feel excluded and not good enough by the people who you hoped would be the most understanding.

CDN

[Vickie_CDTV]

As for putting GGs on pedestals, please remember the vast majority of GGs are never told about the dressing prior to marriage; it is not something they were told about and they didn't have all the information to make a fully informed decision before making a life altering commitment. It is just natural to have some degree of, for lack of a better word, "sympathy", for them.

[Andy66]

I dont even know what to say. Kind of scared to voice a difference of opinion now, or any opinion in case someone will get upset.

I do agree with the GGs on a pedestal thing. They should be considered and treated kindly, but it just kills me when someone says their wife LET or ALLOWED them do something. Shes supposed to be your partner, not your boss. :(

[lingerieLiz]

My wife knew before we married. She would rather I didn't CD, but accepts that I do for the most part. I don't try to pass and don't wear wigs and makeup or a dress except on very rare occasions. That apart it is no ones business when, how and why we choose how we practice CDing. While I think you should tell before marriage I'm not here to judge anyone. I have and will make suggestions and give opinion, but no one needs to take it.

[MelanieAnne]

Women will "accept" all kinds of things before marriage, thinking they can change a guy after the wedding.

[Sarasometimes]

Well put Danielle! As a closeted/DADT I have been on the receiving end of what you speak of and even when my post requests that any replies please avoid the surmon to be myself and screw what others think. Hopefully your rant will make some think before they do the soapbox thing in a personal way.
As for telling an SO early on, that is clearly the what they deserve. Hindsight is 20/20.

[MelanieAnne]

Seriously, there isn't much that would cause a woman to call off a wedding.

[Amanda M]

While I agree with most of what the OP said, please remember that if you see a GG posting on here who is confused and frightened, she may say things that you find offensive simply because of her state of mind. Faer and confusion are not the best basis for rational thought, so please, at least offer an empathetic ear.

[Secret Drawer]

As recommended by many here, I stepped away from the site for about 4 months to "be sure" I had my own feelings straight considering my transgendered issues. I had noted that now and again things could get hostile in some threads, especially hot button topics! It does seem like a betrayal of sorts when a "safe haven" site seems to be against you, and a group that should be among the most open minded become somehow the opposite!?
Perhaps one of the problems is that some of us wear our hearts on our sleeves and are very open and honest here, as there is little opportunity for some of us to share this life with others in the "real world." Yet there are others who seem to be more guarded in what they share, thus feel less threatened by the sometimes more pithy comments.
If we are to understand one another better, it makes sense to consider the idea that we can't see one another so maybe we misinterpret the meaning behind the words sometimes. Thus the pressure isn't just on the writer, but the reader also must consider the intention a bit deeper. This allows for that opposing view dialog to continue, yet not become an exercise in finger pointing or personal digs.
Lastly, it seems we do struggle a bit with this notion that we change. I remember posting once about my wife "not caring" about my dressing, yet some time later I posted about her seeming intolerance to it and was questioned. Fair enough. It is simply this ebb and flow to life itself that causes this confusion and I can't blame the responder for questioning me, although it took me a while to not feel that the questioner was calling me out for being disingenuous!
Anyhow, great rant, hope it, along with Isha's, will be remembered for more than a few weeks!

[Tinkerbell-GG]

Oh gawd, if anyone here thinks most GGs like being on a pedestal, they're WRONG! In a hundred thousand ways, it just accentuates this whole thing. It's unsettling to feel men are watching, studying, learning and worshiping you. Yes, it can also be flattering on some carnal level, but disturbing on so many others. Not to mention, we have the same thoughts y'all do so we're on any given day angry, relaxed, annoyed or content the same as anyone here. We're HUMAN. Nothing more. No pedestals in sight!

But then, this is a MTF crossdressing forum and the general idea is men emulating women, so surely the 'pedestal' is to be expected? It would be even weirder to have a man put hours of effort into looking like a GG, only to tell everyone that he doesn't really like women very much. I suspect part of the allure is that they like women VERY MUCH. So I take this 'pedestal' part as just another cog in the crossdressing wheel. It makes sense in context.

Otherwise, I agree with Danielle that everyone should decide their own path when it comes to telling/not telling/becoming bestie shopping buddies etc. I personally have come from being general accepting of what I was told was a small fetish (always how it starts) to disgust when the full truth is revealed, to denial and divorce talk and now slow acceptance after joining here. I'll never love it so my honest and slightly negative perspective will always show in my posts, but I'm learning and growing and my marriage is better for it. I also respect the need for venting and ranting here, and I understand those who are hurt needing to share with those who might understand. It can take a lifetime and beyond to have the clarity to say your opinion without hurting others, and it's not always possible to write as well as we think. But we should all try a little harder, myself included. x

[Talisker]

Of course everyone is different and the person living with the SO is in a much better position to assess the situation than a random person on the internet with a paragraph of text to work with.
On the other hand there are a lot of people asking for advice and most of the advice is just repeating what the other person did - self justification.
From your list I get the impression that you are trying to justify keeping it secret. I'm sure if you think about it there could be more reasons for telling.
As for harassment, well its just text from random people on the internet.... and we are just men in dresses so how bad can it be! Decide to follow it if you want or don't.

If you ask for someones opinion don't be upset if you get it. Got to be big girls now.

[Teresa]

Danielle,
You should post more often if you can come with threads liks this !
Yes we are all imperfect human beings male or female, most women would hate to be stuck on a pedestal, very few think they're perfect ! Something is either too big or too small ! Guy mode for us is far easier, sometimes I do feel I was only put here for target practice but usually it's my own fault !
It does take some of us a while to get over Cding as an affliction, hiding in the closet because men aren't suppose to wear dresses and being totally screwed up by the guilt and shame of it ! Then someone comes along and tells you to man up and tell the world and to hell with the consequences ! Then they wonder why your facing a divorce but your partner flipped their lid and ended up in therapy !

[DanielleLee]

Oh gawd, if anyone here thinks most GGs like being on a pedestal, they're WRONG! In a hundred thousand ways, it just accentuates this whole thing. It's unsettling to feel men are watching, studying, learning and worshiping you. Yes, it can also be flattering on some carnal level, but disturbing on so many others. Not to mention, we have the same thoughts y'all do so we're on any given day angry, relaxed, annoyed or content the same as anyone here. We're HUMAN. Nothing more. No pedestals in sight!

But then, this is a MTF crossdressing forum and the general idea is men emulating women, so surely the 'pedestal' is to be expected? It would be even weirder to have a man put hours of effort into looking like a GG, only to tell everyone that he doesn't really like women very much. I suspect part of the allure is that they like women VERY MUCH. So I take this 'pedestal' part as just another cog in the crossdressing wheel. It makes sense in context. ( <<<< Interesting)

Otherwise, I agree with Danielle that everyone should decide their own path when it comes to telling/not telling/becoming bestie shopping buddies etc. I personally have come from being general accepting of what I was told was a small fetish (always how it starts) to disgust when the full truth is revealed, to denial and divorce talk and now slow acceptance after joining here. I'll never love it so my honest and slightly negative perspective will always show in my posts, but I'm learning and growing and my marriage is better for it. I also respect the need for venting and ranting here, and I understand those who are hurt needing to share with those who might understand. It can take a lifetime and beyond to have the clarity to say your opinion without hurting others, and it's not always possible to write as well as we think. But we should all try a little harder, myself included. x

Wow.... coming from Tinkerbell, who I know has been to hell and back with this... she gets it.

Two clarifications...

I did not say that GGs should not be valued or that they were undeserving of sympathy. My God... I'm not a fool and I'm not going to even attempt to understand what goes on inside a female's brain... let alone a female's brain that just was just shocked to discover her husband is a cross dresser. Shock, Anger, Disbelief, maybe even guilt... am I getting close? A wife/SO is entitled to feel all that she does and more.

I did not say or insinuate that I was trying to justify myself keeping it a secret. In fact... my disclaimer clearly had my background. My wife knows. End of story. It's nobody else's business unless I decide to share with friends and family. (which yes, there are) I also stated that we should be honest and disclose in new relationships. We (as a CD collective) know so much more than we ever have in the past. We know it's the right thing to tell a prospective SO and that its not going to go away. WE may be able to suppress, but at our core beings.... we will always be cross dressers.

Now... did I try to justify keeping it a secret for those who may be closeted... yes I did, because that's my opinion. There is risk of course, but at the end of the day... only each one of us knows our situation, when to tell or what path to take. There may be consequences for this to be sure, but that's on the individual.

And again... thank you for taking the time to reply.

[natcrys]

I dont even know what to say. Kind of scared to voice a difference of opinion now, or any opinion in case someone will get upset.


Oh come on.. there is a huge difference between

1) a person saying someone's is a coward for not telling their SO...

and

2) a person stating his/her belief that telling a SO is always the preferable option and that keeping it from the SO is not a good idea.

Words do matter.. especially on the Internet where there is no way of giving proper nuance to the written text with tone of voice, inflexion, gestures and facial expressions.

I think that 1) is uncalled for .. and 2) is a better way of conveying the same idea without name-calling. Especially in a place which is also considered a sort of safe-haven.

[Stephanie47]

Danielle, I am in total agreement with your post. I have stated my opinion concerning their nastiness on the particular threads. There is absolutely no reason for someone to call another a liar and espouse vile words because of a posters beliefs. One may take exception to another person's opinion, but, there is no reason to be vile. I've noticed over the past year an absence of some participants, whose comments I enjoyed. When I see the vile language on this forum, it is no wonder those person's have moved on.

One of the things I do before I post a response is to go back and read some of the poster's comments. It gives me some idea where the person is coming from and his or her mindset. Sometimes going back gives me some insight of why the person espouses vile words.

[Donna June]

Being single I can't address the marriage part, Danielle, but I agree with you so much on the nastiness to those closeted comment you made. I can't say anyone has been really nasty to me, but many who have seen my photos get so annoyed at me when they find out I don't go out as Donna. Maybe I will soon, but until then I have my reasons and it's my business.

[Michelle789]

Danielle, thank you for your post. This is a well thought out, well-written post.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Just remember there are two sides to every story. No judgment here...I lied for 20 + years...I ended up transitioning...I caused a lot of grief.

In relationships, telling lies and keeping secrets causes damage. Withholding information is control...

All the points in the OP are well taken and valid... But there is a big element of self justification ..I get that there are jerky judgmental people that make it out to be a horrible crime when its a basic relationship issue...
and I know the outcome of telling the truth is most often, lets just say, not good.

Unfortunately gender variance is not acceptable to many, and if it does come to light who can say what's right or wrong about telling your wife..

however, you can't just ignore the other side of it, which is non controversial...keeping secrets is not good for relationships...and the person keeping the secret has power over the other person..

often times the cost of the secret is at least one blast of anger or frustration from the person that realizes something has been kept from them
...its human nature to feel anger when you have no control over something you don't like

[JulieMcKie]

I agree 100% with Danielle on this. I too am a seldom poster and this thread really struck a nerve in me. I came out to my wife before marriage and was met with a very firm DADT. That was over 10 years ago and we haven't discussed it since. In that time my dysphoria has grown to the point where I want to dress daily and am planning to start seeing a therapist. I know my wife well enough to know that bringing Julie into day to day life will end in divorce.

So there in lies the battle I and most of us face. We all have to decide which is worse, staying and hiding, or coming out and losing everything. This is just a reality for some of us.

Should you tell you SO about your other side - it depends on you and your situation. Those here that shout for full disclosure from the mountain tops seem to, for the most part, have a fully supportive spouse. To me, thats like a millionaire telling a homeless person that money doesn't buy happiness.