Nowhere "under" the rainbow?

[ophelia]

I know this will inspire some critique..
But after viewing (but not participating in) some pride events this past summer I cannot say I am very comfortable under the LGBT rainbow banner.
I understand that society likes to box things up but as an occasional crossdresser, meaning that I don't publicly express my love of "feminine" style and trappings very often, I don't find myself having much in common with this group and its very legitimate and important social concerns.
What say you?

[Raychel]

I have to say that I am with you Ophelia, Not so sure I fit under that banner either,
but as said in other threads it is all just labels. labels are for soup cans. however you feel best
what ever group you feel you do or do not fit in. the most important part is that you are happy
with yourself and where you are in your life.

[hope springs]

Solely my opinion

As a hetero non-trans i dont have a personal stake in the LGBT community. However, we do have some things in common. CDers face ostracism and scorn much like the LGBTs. We wish for acceptance, strive to be more understood and grapple with difficult family issues due do our predalictions. So althoug many here are not LGBT, we sure as hell face similar problems. Therefore i do try and support their causes. They may be the only group thatwould support us. There are expections, individuals within any group can be defensive and non-supportive. But on the whole, i feel the two communities can be mutually supportive.
If not, well then we fight like they had to. They, the LGBT community, faced hate crimes and death for decades. So i give them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to their attitude towards CDers.

[Wildaboutheels]

Looks to me like CDing is "just" a Hobby to you?

And that you are neither compelled or controlled by it or feel powerless to stop it?

It's likely that you are like probably 99% of the CDers on the planet.

A part time MtF who does it for fun.

Just because you participate here does not mean you should support any "cause" does it?

It won't make you a "better" or worse CDer.

[Kate Simmons]

I'm pretty much of a "lone wolf" myself. Groups have the tendency to push their own agendas, especially some things I'm not always comfortable with. Such agendas may interfere with my individuality.:)

[AllieSF]

Well, if you use the definition of terms as stated on this site, that the "T" (Transgender) in LGBT, a crossdressers is transgender and thus falls under the LGBT umbrella. As others have said above, you do not have to participate, carry a flag, or whatever. However, since one of the main purposes of the larger LGBT group is to obtain equal rights for all of its members and to secure necessary legal civil rights protections against discrimination in any shape or form, what they do does have benefits for all of us over the short and long run. So, when you can please do participate, even if it is only supporting and voting for legislation that further and protect our rights.

[JessicaJHall]

While I fall in the part time "lone wolf" category as well, I see this as an important political movement, designed to open minds, inspire tolerance, and loosen rigid gender stereotypes. Political movements are usually contentious and diverse with their ranks, and often are described by the ironic (in this instance) metaphor "strange bedfellows" (no literal meaning in my case, anyway) mainly due to the fact that there is strength in numbers. One can have difficulty identifying with a movement, and still play an important role, even if it's just through armchair activism.
So while this may, or may not be an optimal fit for us, it is all we have, until more specific movements can be hatched. But speaking for myself only, that's going to be an tall order considering it's confined to a "closet" (with a laptop in it).

[Stephanie47]

I am not a joiner. I have the credentials to have joined many different groups over the years. The problem I have always encountered is my individuality almost precludes it. I have found, if you belong to a group, the group expects you to agree with everything that is espoused by the leadership group. I may support individual planks of an organization, but, may oppose other planks. Thus, I guess I'm in the lone wolf category. I have never had a desire to become a woman, although, if I was not a man being a woman would be fine with me.

I have found the most progress made on a issue is usually made through the efforts of the silent majority and not those who scream and yell. When the local news does a news clip of a pride parade showing hairy obese men in tutu's does that promote the cause? Or does the tastefully attired gay, lesbian or cross dresser who is your neighbor do more for the cause? Of course, sometimes I have difficulty figuring out what the cause may be. I say this because I have among my friends and relationships men and women who are gays and lesbians. I know they are gays and lesbians, but, I have to recall that fact because they seem like me- normal everyday people. I don't include or exclude anyone based on any criteria other than being a civil person.

I prefer to enjoy my Stephanie time within my home because she brings me relief from stresses of life. Venturing outside of my comfort zone would defeat Stephanie's purpose. I shall remain a man who feels comfort donning women's dresses for my personal comfort.

But, alas, for all of you, please do your thing!

[Marcelle]

Hi Ophelia,

While I am not a big label person, I do consider myself "transgender" as there is a part of me who wishes to express "female" for a variety of reasons. However, I don't consider myself a political person and tend to shy away from groups as they can be complicated and sometimes quite elitist . . . "you are not like me, so you don't belong" or "be happy we allow you to sit at the big kids table", "tow the party line or shut up". While I do not consider myself part of the Transgender Shock Troops, I still try to educate those around me when I am out and about and I am hoping by having good interactions with others they will see I am just a normal person who dresses like a girl sometimes and this will help the cause sort to speak. Will I march in a Pride Parade? No, because that is not my thing but I do support the concept and will work as hard as possible for rights for all.


. . . It's likely that you are like probably 99% of the CDers on the planet. A part time MtF who does it for fun.

Interesting stats . . . where did you get them? Just curious because I suspect they are bit high.

Hugs

Isha

[ArleneRaquel]

Many years ago I was very active in "Pride events", today not as much, except for online activities. The rainbow is OK withe me.

[CherylFlint]

When I first started to finally go out dressed, I’d go to Gay bars, thinking that I’d be accepted.
Wrong.
So I decided I’d go to Lesbian bars and got the same reaction.
Then I went to just regular bars and, after I was “made”, got the same reaction as the first two places I went to.
Face it, the world views us with suspicion: they don’t know what to make of us.
But that’s okay. I can’t help who, and what, I am, and neither can any other CD. So I just go on out there and have fun, it’s all any of us can do.
And if there are those who “don’t get it”, no amount of explaining will make them see that we’re not monsters, we’re just girls.
And I agree about you’re views about the rainbow banner.

[Katey888]

Yes - it's struck me as a not entirely harmonious relationship and in truth, an almost incidental relationship in that:

LBG => Sexual orientation
T => Gender identity mismatch either total or a 'spectrum' dysphoria - and probably doesn't include fetish CDs (FCDs?)

But, in the oft proven (although sometimes politically awkward) adage of "The enemy of my enemy is my friend..." - the enemy in this case being one of intolerance and misunderstanding amongst society of what appear to be lifestyle 'choices' to them but what we generally understand and accept are deep rooted conditions - a gender-issue CDer (GCD?), TG and TS folk suffer similar or worse intolerance from society as any of the LGB camp, I think? :thinking:

So while we may not appear to have a lot in common on the surface, I don't believe you have to go too much deeper before you realise that we might be strange bedfellows, but we are certainly in the same bed in the eyes of society... (no innuendo intended.. ;))

I'm happy to stand under a rainbow banner in this circumstance - so many of society think we're gay anyway, at least that's removing one minor element of dissonance in the minds of the muggles... And so what if they do...? :D

Katey x

[Kimberly Kael]

One thing that unites the LGBT community is that, from an outside perspective, we all violate the expectations society has for someone assigned a particular gender at birth. Who we're attracted to is one of those expectations. How we dress and what mannerisms are within the expected range is another. Our gender identity is a third. So while it's true that we don't all understand the challenges faced by others under the umbrella, the reality is that we trigger a lot of similar reactions from those not under the umbrella because we're all gender variant in one respect or another. People tend to assume that crossdressers are gay and vice-versa, and they don't understand the differences between transsexuals and drag queens. Education is in all of our interests, and the best way to make social progress is with as many allies as you can find.

I understand if anyone doesn't feel compelled to take up the cause publicly because I was leery of doing so myself when I wasn't out to anyone. I advocated for equality in abstract terms but I didn't march in Pride parades for fear of my secrets becoming even more obvious. Even so, I recognized just how much social progress was being made on my behalf. Broadening the accepted range of masculine expression eventually gave me enough freedom to explore my true identity while appearing to merely push the bounds of "metrosexual." Of course eventually the pressure built up enough for me to transition, but I appreciated not feeling the need to adopt an ultra masculine identity to compensate as so many others have.

[Alice Torn]

Like Kate, I am a lone wolf, or sheep. But, violent discrimination against any group, be they liberal, or conservative, non religious, or religious, minorities or not, is wrong. As a veteran who served my country for a little while, and a Tg Cd, i served to have a right to go out dressed, whether in a GLBT group or alone, but am not much of a big group person. Having been on both the left side of things, and on the far right side of things, in my 60 years, I am afraid there is plenty of bigotry on both extremes. I choose to be a lone sheep or wolf.

[ophelia]

What interesting responses! I've learned so much. But the comment about hairy gays in tu-tu's marching...that is so far away from my focus. On dating sites I too have reached out to lesbians, hoping for some kind of commonality which would bring us together.....not to be! What we as CD-ers should try to do is promote the reality that the desire for humans and other species to adorn themselves is perfectly normal and that it takes on so many forms. Many of us are exquistely hetero and a threat to no one. That doesn't explain my need for breast forms in my presentation, aside from the fact that they are representations of beauty and fertility.....

[kimdl93]

I do feel that I have a good deal in common with others under this particular rainbow. It's about accepting one another and celebrating our individuality, as well as speaking or acting out against repression.

[Rogina B]

The "commonality" we share is that we are uncommon. A 20 yr old TS coming out to family,is equal to a G or L person of the same age...not the norm. To the unaccepting,we are all equal. Joining in a Pride or LGBT support event,helps strengthen the number of "local,non normal" folks. lol Human Rights are basic Civil Rights and all humans are equally entitled to them.It is the strength and cohesion of the alphabet community that makes changes happen. If you don't care to be with us,at least don't go against us as that is what a bigot is all about.

[Karren J]

Great topic Ophelia

My two cents is this,

My goal while en-fem is to not to be noticed.

I freely acknowledge the LBGT community and the fantastic work they have done to push back the social boundaries, but I would rather go unnoticed and blend in. The very first step of changing society is to proclaim HERE I AM and that isn't something that I want to do. I could go into the argument of if no one tries to change things then nothing will change but that person isn't me, and I suspect by all the alias's and neck down photos (guilty!) the majority of us prize anonymity. Maybe one day we'll be accepted as we are but that day isn't today and I don't want to lead the charge.

Back to the topic though, the LBGT community is about awareness and we seem to be all about secret identities. Not the most comparable goals, but then again everyone needs friends.

[KaceyR]

Most of what I was going to write has been already addressed I think.
While I am deeper 'into the T' than most here, yes CDing is definitely under that umbrella.
But it's a situation that Not-public or occasional CDers would rather stand outside getting rained on than link themselves to the TG side under it.
And for those that don't ever go out and express their CDing in public..it's all fine.
They may not see the effects of public humiliation or discrimination happen to them.
Unless something happens to 'out' themselves-they can stay undisturbed.

But there's a bit of a bigger picture to see.
The biggest thing we face when out is embarrassment, discrimination, humiliation, and attacks by other haters and people who 'fear the abnormal' (for lack of a better phrase).
In some ways, the linking of 'T' to the LGB groups has helped. If nothing else, it's helped get the visibility of Transgender folk out there. More visibility, more commonality, and thus more possibility of people learning to accept others involved on the 'T' side.
Breaking the stupid, illogical, and hurtful stigma placed out there by the right, religion, and others that TGers are all about "bathroom attacks" and such drivel can only be done with more visibility of the Transgender condition (using one of the bigger primary arguments..and I have seen actual copies of that propaganda they give to their 'followers' to promote against a recent anti-discrimination city hall vote recently...yeesh). See more TG people out and about..you may realize were all about just expressing different, just trying to live general lives and not all hidden serial rapists. Recent popularity in TV and media has also helped that. The medical field also is catching up a bit too to the aspect of Transgender.

But the problem that happens is due to personal-level/individual experience and thought.
You can have all sorts of edicts in place, say in a medical facility to not discriminate against a TG. But while the individual nurse or doc who resents us may 'do his job' to cover that, it doesn't cover up the contempt or whatever he shows to us while we're there. A story mentioned by one girl (transitioned, non-op..not CDer but just an example) going to the clinic for a urinary issue.. They had issues trying at first to plan tests out as a normal woman would. When argued/brought up the facts..they turned it into a freak show. Getting multiple docs/nurses (all male but 1) in the room during the procedure. Then the docs going next door where she could hear them thru the thin walls talking and laughing about it all... All professionalism (In this case the treating doc's as he got the others brought in to watch the 'show') will drop to the individual's personal beliefs and issues.

Thing is.. These societal changes don't happen without being able to show visible numbers. And we're a hidden group. We have to hide to survive in the world. And also, when it comes down to society and the home... Well, even if the literal discrimination aspect were to suddenly get protected in work, in public and in society... It's still a very gradual change on personal acceptance levels. A lot of CDers deal with the fact that it's not the public "resentment" due to what they do or where they go... It's the localized in-home acceptance. Hiding it from the wife or partner and such for fear of divorce, leaving, kids, etc.
So while looking at what LGBT groups and their public advocacy as a whole does...it doesn't really help the more common CDer out.

Discussing the negative side just a touch. 'T' inclusion with the advocacy groups has been tricky.
It's a hierarchy of acceptance primarily,due to perceived numbers and other factors.
LG is a nice neat still-conforming-to-gender-binary group.
B is another group..but there's a lot of misinformation about them as well to be honest. A big constant out there is the thought "oh you're Just uncertain until you choose which side you're on (straight or gay)". Silly logic really when one really thinks hard on it (they state how sexuality is a born thing..not a choice.. Then can state there's a choice here?)
So B does have their own amounts of discrimination for the LG side as well.
But 'T' is foreign to all of these people due to gender being a whole different subject than sexuality.

And unfortunately, that aspect has allowed us (or 'T's) to become fodder for these advocacy groups.
A couple examples...ENDA... Employee non-discriminatory act. Basically.. T is added to the act which seems good to us. But then it's realized it's just included to be there for future removal as part of the 'negotiation' process to get it passed thru.
The other example.. Here in Michigan there's a similar civil rights act in place. And a bill is in to get LGBT added into the acts' coverage. There's a coalition of businesses and companies pushing for it too (yay). But again, arguments. And then talk by the CEO or somesuch of AT&T saying 'we'd be willing to pull the transgender consideration out of the requirements if that would help the bill pass'.
Kind of gave me mixed feelings as I've just preordered an Apple 6+ phone and reupped my cell plan with AT&T for another 2years... :/

So it's a very uphill battle. From the 'T' perspective...we don't have enough visible and loud numbers to push for anything ourselves as far as society and political change. We desperately need the assistance of these LGB groups to help advance laws and consideration about us. But if their inclusion of us is only as fodder....

On the aspect of localized effects mentioned by Cheryl...
I've not had bad issues with any of my bars...yet.
Have gone to gay bars... Essentially ignored for the most part. Granted these were ones for a younger crowd. But generally they are men attracted to men that look like men. So a female-looking guy gets ignored pretty much (although sometimes I think I could do better than some of those dancers... :))
I've yet to get to the bar here that's more lesbian-oriented.
I've gone to another couple places however.. A bar and a club locally. The bar's co-owned/operated by a transgender girl. Nice small place...I called it a 'cheers for the unusual' :) Mainly as locally it kind of is a hangout for T-girls. After some time there, they'll go to the other place..a club. 2floors..drag show up top, dance club/bar below. Last time I was there..it eventually ended up packed.. I want to say 35-40% T-girls, 35-40% Lesbian, rest gay guys. Oh..and the occasional drag queen wandering around before their shows :) Not bad..packed dance floor. All seem to coexist well there.

But I know there are some on the Lesbian side that don't care for the 'T'. On the political front.. Women's organizations have issues internally with what is known as TERFs.. Trans Exclusive Radical Feminists. They spout some of the same drivel that hate groups does. And it's far reaching. In Michigan there was an issue with transgendered people being allowed in to a well known women's music show.. And it's all because of the directors' orders and TERF comments. Some bands pulled out of the show due to this. TG women aren't "womyn born womyn" in their thought. So they push this exclusivity aspect onto other women and continue the hate against Transgender.

I realize this continues beyond standard CD talk. But it summarizes the interaction of that global TG umbrella and the rest of these people. There's a long way to go before transgendered are accepted as human beings even instead of subhuman (as it seems today). Gonna take a real big shift in thought to make it happen. Slowly it is. It's also generational...recent couple of generations have grown up with a lot more open-mindedness and tolerance than most. Problem nowadays to me is that it's not the open-minded people that are in places of power (government,etc). Again, that's a numbers thing.. Just couldn't make much of a difference politics-wise I don't think if we started a "Rock the CDer Vote" campaign. But it'd be fun to see the ads :)

[ophelia]

So now I'm understanding my position better.
On my outings I want to be seen more and more as a lovely lady. That is kind of like standing out and blending in at the same time.
The LGBT Rainbow is about being accepted while standing out.
We a CD's benefit from their work, and that's good for us.

[Krisi]

No, a "crossdresser" is not necessarily "transgender". Many, perhaps most crossdressers are heterosexual males with no wish that they had been born female, no desire to transition and no desire to have secual relations with other men.

A "crossdresser" is a male who wears female clothing and accessories from time to time. That's all.

And like some others, I don't feel I have anything in common with LGBT organizations, nor if I were going out to a bar would I pick a lesbian or gay bar.

[devida]

What is the problem with cross dressers disliking being termed transgender? Being transgender certainly does not mean that you have to transition or are even interested in transition, it just means that you sometimes present or identify as a gender other than that assigned to you at birth. Folks, this isn't a difficult definition to understand yet every time this topic comes up one or more posters associates transgender with transitioning. Men or women transitioning to another sex are transexuals who are, by the way, a sub group of the transgender community just like cross dressers are. Being transgender says nothing about your sexual orientation, or even what's between your legs.

I'm thinking this is a not too disguised form of homophobia. Like - I couldn't be transgender because that would mean I'm like those gays and lesbians when all I am is a red blooded American male who likes to wear women's clothes.

Let me warn everyone who imagines that not being gay or lesbian but liking to present as another gender will somehow offer a protection against discrimination. Generally defeated by the increasing social acceptance of gays and lesbians the bigots have found a new target - the transgendered, a category to which, believe me, the bigots regard cross dressing heterosexual males as belonging

Don't take my word about the definition of transgender. Read the definition that cross dressers.com provides. There the definition states that being transgender just means that your gender identity varies (in different degrees with different individuals) from the gender you were defined as having at birth. I do not understand how a man, straight or not, dressing in women's clothes does not meet the standards of that definition.

[mariehart]

Kacey's post is very interesting.

I don't get involved with LGBT groups either although I qualify under B and T. I'm not a joiner at all and I don't wear badges or ribbons supporting any cause. I keep meaning to go and see the pride parade in this town but haven't yet.

I do support the idea of it though. Any kind of advocacy group can only be a good thing.

[Jannis]

I support the LGBT groups quietly from the sidelines. They are taking the struggle to the public at large in a very visible way. We are all looking for recognition and acceptance, but in not so much of a public display. I am reminded by a quote from a famous general that" quiet warriors build empires." We can support each other, but don't stop seeking our goals.

[MsVal]

I'm still pretty new to the realization that I am transgendered and still finding my way. However my bucket list includes going about my daily stuff without regard to the clothing I wear. While out, some people may detect that I am a man in woman's clothing, and that is okay. That's my point. I want to be one more CD ambassador. That will be my little contribution toward normalization of our shared desire.

As far as organized groups, they are the ones the mainstream media call when they need information. They are the ones that provide education and support for LGBT persons and their loved ones. (One of my local groups is hosting a health fair.) For the general public, these groups, not the occasional individuals, are the face of LGBT issues.

I will find a group whose work I endorse and will support them. It may involve writing a check, set up / tear down at an event, or some other low-key support activity.

[Tinkerbell-GG]

... heterosexual males with no wish that they had been born female...A "crossdresser" is a male who wears female clothing and accessories from time to time. That's all.



Devida, it's the above that causes confusion about the transgender definition. What if there's no internal female identity and it's literally all about the external aesthetics? What about those who dress as women because it turns them on as a MAN? I guess they technically fit into the T in LGBT, but should they? Do these private (often sexual) dressers really fit in with those who live with public discrimination every day just for being themselves? Do most TS even want to be associated with pleasure dressers?

I suspect it's irrelevant as the more publicly active CDers will likely be further along the TG line. Still, it's a very broad definition and I think the T probably does need narrowing down a bit so as not to include those who don't desire it. It's hardly supportive if people feel forced to be part of something by default, and not because they feel they belong there. I love to have a glass of champagne every now and then, but that doesn't mean I can relate to people who are alcoholics, or that I need the support of AA. Not yet, anyway!

[Lorileah]

I know this will inspire some critique..
But after viewing (but not participating in) some pride events this past summer I cannot say I am very comfortable under the LGBT rainbow banner.

:thinking:What banner are you comfortable under? :idontknow: I think people who don't want to be "under the banner" don't really understand what the banner is. You don't have to be black to support anti-racism right? You don't have to be a woman to support feminism. You don't have to be a duck to support Ducks unlimited. You do have to be empathetic and understand equality though. OK don't play with that group. I always wonder what you would do if tomorrow the government outlawed ANY man wearing ANY piece of women's clothing even in private. What if they decided that if you get caught in let's say the ER with panties on you go to jail or a psych ward? Yes I know that sounds extreme but if you think about it it isn't that far fetched. If you don't go out and you are always hidden you cannot see the big picture because you are cloistered.

So I always have to ask, what banner should the T's be under? None? Remember it wasn't too long ago it was illegal in many states. What you are doing, in the privacy of your own home, was illegal. Your neighbors could turn you in. Not thinking you are a part of a larger problem is a problem. But that is just me as a social rights person talking. When everyone can walk free and proud without being marginalized by others over gender, sex, religion, physical ability(disability), color, race, background; then we won't need banners. In the meantime, it is your choice. But don't think of yourself as a open mined progressive and caring person

[Dianne S]

I'm fine with the LGBT banner, even though I recognize that the LG(B?) community has slightly different fights than the T community. I think uniting is better than dividing, even if we're not totally on the same page.

There's certainly a place for transgender rights groups that concern themselves primarily with transgender issues and not with LGB issues, but there's also place for uniting and affirming everyone's right to respect and dignity.

There are some gay and lesbian people who put down transgendered people (Dan Savage has said some obnoxious things) and there are some trans people, primarily heterosexual crossdressers, who have said some pretty homophobic things. Both are harmful and both should be called out.

[Annaliese]

Work within your comfort zone, no one should ask any more from you, and that comfort zone can change either direction depending on event in ones own life.

[Katey888]

This is an interesting and important discussion, I feel... and has brought up an associated relevancy again...


Devida, it's the above that causes confusion about the transgender definition. What if there's no internal female identity and it's literally all about the external aesthetics? What about those who dress as women because it turns them on as a MAN? I guess they technically fit into the T in LGBT, but should they?

Tinks – FWIW my :2c: on this which I think fits with our forum definition of TG… Those who dress for purely sexual return might technically fit, but I suspect they probably shouldn’t. I’m no shrink but the way I see the sexual aspect of this for those whose return is purely sexual, theirs is more of a fetish that may relate to women or presenting female or it may just be connected with the clothing in a sensual way.

For those who no longer have or have never had any sexual component, those who just dress female “because they enjoy it”, I think we need to ask the question: If it’s not a gender issue that prompts this behaviour, then what the heck is it? :) IMHO, those folk have a gender issue of some sort and therefore should be considered TG. If not, this is like someone who maintains they’re not an alcoholic because they’re not drinking a full bottle of gin before breakfast, only by lunchtime… :eek:

Thus…

Don't take my word about the definition of transgender. Read the definition that cross dressers.com provides. There the definition states that being transgender just means that your gender identity varies (in different degrees with different individuals) from the gender you were defined as having at birth. I do not understand how a man, straight or not, dressing in women's clothes does not meet the standards of that definition.
…is the right answer! :)

I didn’t realise what TG was before I arrived here – now I understand the context of the term and what I feel drives me and I am able to accept that I am a touch TG… <shrugs> It doesn’t mean I’m gay, bi, want to transition, like men when dressed… recognising that I am TG hasn't actually changed me at all - but what else explains the flouting of otherwise totally accepted norms of gender presentation for any of us???

Katey x

[Michelle789]

I think the OP's question is more about whether a crossdresser should fit under the TG umbrella, which is a separate question whether the T should be grouped with the LGB in the LGBT umbrella. They're two separate but related groupings.

The TG umbrella definition officially includes crossdressers, although the media's portrayal of TG means TS, and usually MTF TS. I noticed that some crossdressers identify as TG but not TS, while other CDers don't identify as trans anything, just as crossdressers. It's a really gray area and is very debatable where people fit. IMO, CDers have a milder form of gender dysphoria than a TS, and a CD can typically control the GD with occasional CDing and never needs to transition, while a TS it is usually a life or death matter - we transition so we can live. Usually a TS either wants to end their life and/or is living in misery as a male. I was certainly both - I wanted to end my life during 2012-2013 and was unhappy as a male - and eventually downright miserable living as a male by 2014. Transition saved my life and is allowing me to actually live life as opposed to just going through motions and isolating.

@Ophelia
Please correct me if I'm wrong. Do you not feel comfortable under the LGBT umbrella but okay as part of the T, or do you feel that as a CDer you don't even belong with the T?

@Tinkerbell
I think that fetish dressers have a milder form of GD just like a non-fetish CDer does too, and fetish dressers and underdressers are crossdressers. We can range from fetish dressers, to CDers who dress partially or fully from head to toe but only in private, to CDers who venture out en femme, to full-time CDers,to gender fluid, to TS. Regardless of where we fall on the gender spectrum, we can either stay where we are, or progress to any further level.

So a fetish dresser may remain a fetish dresser their entire life, or progress to a full dresser and may leave the house en femme, and may even transition some day. They might progress through the various levels, or in some cases a fetish dresser might just one day suddenly transition (although it's unlikely you will actually transition).

A closeted dresser who dresses fully from head to toe (non-fetish) may progress to dressing in public or transition, or they might remain in the closet forever.

A CDer who dresses publicly may transition or remain a public CDer forever.

Someone who has never CDed at all in their life, not even fetish dressing, may start fetish dressing some day, or may dress fully as a woman in the closet or publicly, or may transition too. They might progress through all of the levels, or even go from never wearing a single article of woman's clothing in their life to full transition.

What I am saying is regardless of where you are on the spectrum you can either stay where you are or progress further. You may progress slowly and through all the stages or suddenly end up transitioning and skip all the in between phases.

The only thing that won't happen - you won't go backward. If you try to go backward, you will some day move forward again - even if it isn't for 20-30 years, and likely it will be WAY sooner before you move forward again.

And most likely if you are a CD - fetish or not - you most likely will never transition, but there is always a small possibility.

[Brianna_H]

I'm happy to stand under a rainbow banner in this circumstance - so many of society think we're gay anyway, at least that's removing one minor element of dissonance in the minds of the muggles... And so what if they do...? :Dx

Yup. That's me, too. Putting the T in LGBT!

Oh, and the B. :o

[ReluctantDebutant]

I'll just take up the human banner all the details just get in the way.

[arbon]

I don't find myself having much in common with this group and its very legitimate and important social concerns.
What say you?

You don't have to be a part of it.

[Jorja]

I agree a lot with what has already been said here. So here is the deal, if you like or at least don't mind the term Transgender, you are welcome under the umbrella. If you do not like or even care for the term Transgender then go on your merry way and enjoy life the way you like it.

However, know this, The GLBT movement is responsible for all of the past and current advances in social rights for all of us under this umbrella. This didn't just happen overnight. There was a time when a man wearing a dress and walking down the street would be arrested and thrown in jail, no questions asked. You could be arrested and thrown in jail if your neighbor reported you and you had never been outside of your little closet that you guard so diligently. You would be deemed mentally ill and incarcerated in a mental institution. While there you would be subject to "experiments" to see why you like to wear women's clothing. Very few were ever seen again. If you did manage to get released, your brain was fried or worse.

No one says that you have to do anything to belong to the GLBT movement. If you say you are TG,TS or any of the other combinations that fall under the umbrella then fine you are a part of it. If you want to vote in a manner that aligns with GLBT agenda then fine, you did your part. If you are good at writing checks and have plenty of money, then write until you are content. However, if you like the spotlight, then they have a job for you. They are always looking for someone that can and will stand up and let their voice be heard. It depends upon you. Nobody is going to come knocking on your closet door. How deeply do you want to get involved?

[Seana Summer]

I doubt I would fit under the rainbow myself, though I am sure they would accept my donation of time or money and I agree it is an important movement. I as well as society as a whole, benefits from it.

While some have dreamed of a day when we can all Crossdress openly, it is an even a grander dream to imagine a day when everyone can tolerate each other and stop worrying about which group we belong to........ Human rights are for all

[Wildaboutheels]

Why do people insist on making this so complicated?

If you are a person who maintains "I don't know WHY I do this" then you should be willing to do your part and not simply whip out the NIMBY attitude/card [so prevalent here] whenever it is convenient.

If you DON'T keep asking why/understand "it" from you own perspective, is it any wonder that many here would want to divest themselves from some/any of the [apparently] prevailing attitudes that are commonly expressed here by CDers themselves? [Almost 300 responses to the effect of "I like men but ONLY when I am dressed] This site IS NOT fabricating all these responses.

Besides just who or what committee decided to throw LGBT all into the same pot?

Perhaps the same genius who decided on the ATF bureau?

Hookers/prostitution ain't stopping anytime soon. What banner would they go under? They are simply filling a demand aren't they?

[Jorja]

They may have thrown GLBT into one pot but it is all we have right now. Are you going to start a political action group Wild? No, I didn't think so, yet you want to complain about it.

[MelanieAnne]

I've been crossdressing all my life. But I'm not into wearing speedos, chaps, and tuu tuus, and blowing whistles in parades. And that group is not doing us or themselves any favors. While they may have some legitimate issues, the way they are going about it just invites blowback and ridicule.

[AllieSF]

Melanie, since these pride parades have been going on for a very long time with not much blow back to date, I would love to read your sources and negative experiences with that. The LGBT successes are significant and the Pride parades and festivities help. Here in San Francisco you can see Dykes on Bikes, drag queens, southern Belles when members from the River City Gems, a wonderful support in Sacramento, march with families, children, police, firemen, major companies floats, political dignitaries, actors and professional athletes and diverse other marching contingents. Yes, around those formal activities you will also see the occasional "naked man" and women baring their breasts, as well as pot smoking, dancing and just having a great time. The tourists love the whole thing many times having their (women and young girls) pictures taken with some of those wandering naked man. Now, just because they have the Pride parades does not mean anyone under or near the big umbrella has to participate. That is all voluntary. I go for the festivities and do not march. I do however support when I can. Oh, I too am not into wearing speedos, leather chaps, nor tuu tuus. I do blow the whistles, shout and interact with everyone around me and in the parade when I can get their attention.

[Rogina B]

I agree a lot with what has already been said here. So here is the deal, if you like or at least don't mind the term Transgender, you are welcome under the umbrella. If you do not like or even care for the term Transgender then go on your merry way and enjoy life the way you like it.

However, know this, The GLBT movement is responsible for all of the past and current advances in social rights for all of us under this umbrella. This didn't just happen overnight. However, if you like the spotlight, then they have a job for you. They are always looking for someone that can and will stand up and let their voice be heard. It depends upon you. Nobody is going to come knocking on your closet door. How deeply do you want to get involved?
I really enjoy being involved in making change happen here in NE Florida...Very satisfying....I only wish more would get involved...

[MelanieAnne]

Here in San Francisco you can see Dykes on Bikes, drag queens, southern Belles when members from the River City Gems, a wonderful support in Sacramento, march with families, children, police, firemen, major companies floats, political dignitaries, actors and professional athletes and diverse other marching contingents.

The Peoples Republic of San Francisco does not represent mainstream America. :eek:

[Kimberly Kael]

I've been crossdressing all my life. But I'm not into wearing speedos, chaps, and tuu tuus, and blowing whistles in parades.

Have you actually attended a Pride Parade, or are you just parroting the FOX "news" view of the events? There's a huge range of humanity represented from the unfamiliar to families who look no different from anyone else until you start counting mommies or daddies, and that's part of the point. If there's a list of acceptable forms of self-expression then by definition there's a list of unacceptable forms and I hate to break it to you, but crossdressing is on that second list. The best step forward is to promote the controversial opinion that people should be welcome to be themselves even if you can't understand why.


And that group is not doing us or themselves any favors. While they may have some legitimate issues, the way they are going about it just invites blowback and ridicule.

Shall we compare the social progress made by closeted crossdressers to out and proud gay activists over the past few decades? You are, of course, welcome to your opinion but I'm with "them."

[AllieSF]

The Peoples Republic of San Francisco does not represent mainstream America. :eek:

It does much more than you think! The LGBT Pride umbrella is in Chicago, New York, Ferndale (Michigan), Sacramento, Los Angeles and many other large mainstream American cities, including some mid-sized ones, plus in many international cities all over the world. Is that mainstream enough for you? No one says that you have to participate nor like these events. But, just remember, they have helped all of us obtain rights that we would never have gained without that bigger umbrella. They are a celebration of rights gained, a drive to obtain more rights and sometimes a protest about inequalities. They are attended by people from all over the world. They are not only good for us, but also for the local economy. Everyone benefits. So, what is wrong with that?

Also remember that the past mayor of San Francisco, Gavin Newsome, who is now Lieutenant Governor for the State, was the first to legalize same sex marriage in the city of San Francisco, which is not a "Peoples Republic" but a very progressive and dynamic city if you have never had the opportunity to visit. Now there are several states that have legalized it with more to come.

[MelanieAnne]

"To each his own". It's your life. Do what you want with it.

[Stephanie Sometimes]

To those CD’s that don’t like the idea of being defined as Transgender: what part of crossdressing does not fit under the concept of transferring one’s gender presentation? That is a trans-gender action if ever there was one. I am happy to be part of a larger group than just CD’s. Not to mention that I am happy to have a more serious sounding label than just crossdresser (which always sounded to me like a term for some ongoing perpetual fashion disaster, LOL).

The LGB folks in the LGBT umbrella are often discriminated against for the same basic stupid reasons that we in the T group are discriminated against: not fitting neatly into some arbitrary, false and inaccurate definition of gender and/or sexuality imposed by whatever dominant group is currently in power over the minds of large groups of people in society.

I am happy to have Brothers and Sisters in the LGBT community and glad to help support their fight for equality. And very grateful for the sacrifices that many of them have made in the past that make me more accepted today when I step out the door.

Hugs,
Stephanie

[AllieSF]

"To each his own". It's your life. Do what you want with it.

Melanie, I would appreciate your reasoning for your point of view and answers to my questions much more than your one line dismissive comment. You have strong opinions, so please defend them maturely. I have an open mind and may learn something.

[MelanieAnne]

OK. What "rights" do the LGB folks not have, that the rest of us have? The way I see it, they want special rights, treatment, and privileges.If they are assaulted, that's a crime. Just as it is with anyone else. They seem to be seeking some kind of validation for their lifestyles, rather than keeping it private. And their tactics are pretty much in your face. You do not see heterosexual people running around, wearing funny outfits, blowing whistles and proclaiming "We're heterosexual and proud". "We're here, we're heterosexual, get used to it". A persons sexuality is a private matter. Now please explain what rights they are denied.

[Brianna_H]

Now please explain what rights they are denied.

Wow.

Really?

That closet has really thick walls.

Marriage (http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/lgbt/report/2009/03/03/5731/benefits-denied/)

Identity (http://www.texasobserver.org/same-sex-marriage-drivers-license-dps/)

Life (http://76crimes.com/100s-die-in-homophobic-anti-gay-attacks-statistics-updates/)

Freedom to pursue happiness
(http://www.civilrights.org/publications/hatecrimes/lgbt.html)
And no you don't see heterosexual people acting out (except they do) because they are all you see. Banal LGBT characters wouldn't even exist on TV if it weren't for the rioters and protesters marching in their underwear to create a scene, to force the government and society to pay attention to the violence and the suicide and then AIDS.

#yeswecan

[docrobbysherry]

While I feel like I'm stepping in between 2 folks in a pissing contest, I think I can say with some certainty that ANY male who consistently enjoys wearing women's things for ANY reason is trans.

In my experience I was a regular, vanilla male until age 50+. I did not try on women's things even tho I had many opportunities thruout my previous life. Why not? Because I, like other vanilla men, never even think about that!

U may consider yourself part of the community or not. And, participate or not. But, whatever u think, if u r a male and enjoy wearing women's things, u r not a regular guy and u probably HAVE THINGS IN COMMON WITH OTHER DRESSERS!

[MelanieAnne]

And no you don't see heterosexual people acting out (except they do) because they are all you see. Banal LGBT characters wouldn't even exist on TV if it weren't for the rioters and protesters marching in their underwear to create a scene, to force the government and society to pay attention to the violence and the suicide and then AIDS.


Are you blaming heterosexuals for AIDS and suicides amongst the LGB folks?


• While estimates show that men who have sex with men (MSM) comprise only about 2% of the U.S. population, this group accounts for most new HIV infections (63% in 2010, with an additional 3% occurring in MSM with a history of injection drug use).4,5 Between 2008 and 2010, annual new HIV infections increased 12% among MSM.4


Between 2008 and 2010, annual new HIV infections increased 12% among MSM.4

Is this the progress you are referring to?

And I have no objection to civil unions, legal contracts, etc. But "marriage" should be between a man and a woman. This is just part of the onging attack on our culture by the left.

And as we know, children learn by observing adults. And children adopted by gay or lesbian couples, will grow up never seeing or knowing a normal mother and father relationship. Raising children involves more than food and clothing and a roof over their heads.

The LGB folks are free to pursue happiness. The Constitution permits it, but does not guarantee it.
And assault or murder against the LGB folks is a crime, just as it is against anyone else. But all the parades and whistle blowing isn't going to prevent it, if someone is determined to do it.

[DebbieL]

OK. What "rights" do the LGB folks not have, that the rest of us have?

Imagine suddenly being in a world where you, and only you, no longer had your 4th, 5th, 8th, or 14th amendment rights?

Not only were you no longer protected from cruel and unusual punishment, you would be required to report daily to be violently assaulted by 10-12 boys 3-4 times a day?
This is what "Sissies" experience in most schools, including most public schools and even MORE intensely in Christian schools.
This treatement is also common to "faggots", "fairies", "queers", and "queens". In some cases, it ends in murder.
The administration's response is "Boys will be boys" and when seriously pressed because the violence is documented by hospital records - is "well I can't very well expell half the kids in his class can I?". In some schools, gym coaches even ENCOURAGE such violence, often rewarding such behavior.

What if you suddenly lost your right to privacy - every credit card purchase, every store you went to, the exact details of every purchase, were all suddenly made public, with copies being sent to your employers, members of your church, your wife, your chlidren, your in-laws, and your co-workers? Many religious groups routinely engage in such practices as recording license plates, taking pictures of patrons of gay bars, and other invasions. Nearly half of all male teen suicides are "Gay" (possibly bisexual) and "Tranni" (anywhere in the spectrum of transgender from fetish dresser to transsexual). For many the the triggering event is when they are involuntarily outed, often by some religious fanatic.

Imagine that your property could be seized because you were gay or transgender? My wife lived in "Focus on the Family" country (El Paso County Colorado), and members of the Nazarine were supporting her in not only divorcing me, getting half my after tax income, but also having ALL child visitation revoked PERMANENTLY, with the threat of automatic arrest and indefinite detainment without trial if I missed 3 child support payments in a row..

When I was "Outed" by the brother of a boyfriend of a coworker, My supervisor was told by top executives who were told of my activities as Debbie, "I want him OUT as soon as Legally Possible". i would get a list of 10 items, which would take a month to accomplish, and they were listed in priortiy on Monday. On Friday, I would be presented with a list, which I was NOT allowed to keep, in which the tak priorities were in reverese order. I would then have to sit through 2 hours of "Counseling" from 6 to 8 pm by a manager who I knew was a drug addict and alcoholic actively using, while I had 9 years clean and sober.

When Lee and I got married in New Jersey, and I started to consider transition, one chief concern was the possibility that the marriage would not be legal after transition because it was a "Gay Marriage". We found at that is SOME states, she would have lost health care coverage, life insurance death benefits, could have been denied my 401K if I died first, and could even be denied Social Security Widow's benefits. In some states, they could even take our home. Back in the 1950s and 1960s, such losses were quite common. Even modern domestic partnership agreements are not always recognized. If your life long partner for 10 or more years is suddenly facing a life threatening condition, that's not the time you want to find out that the insurance company, to home you have been paying "Family Plan" premiums has decided that your partner is not eligible for coverage. Your choices are bankruptcy or watch him die. However, you CAN'T watch him die, because in many hospitals, gay partners, even domestic partners are not officially recognized as "Family", which means that you have to suffer, unable to see the person you have loved most of your adult life, and comfort them during their pain and suffering. In fact, in certain hospitals, they might even withold treatement because your partner was identified as gay. Remember that many hospitals are supported by religious institutions.


The way I see it, they want special rights, treatment, and privileges.If they are assaulted, that's a crime.

This may be factually true, but in many districts, for example Houston Texas, if a gay man is murdered by 2-3 men who slowly beat him to death in front of several witnesses, they will be charged with 3rd degree manslaughter and may even get off with probation. On the other hand, if a gay man defends himself when attacked by a group of men, and lands a punch than turns out to be fatal, he is most likely to be charged with murder and likely to recieve the maximum sentence.

Going back to that school scenario, the coach mignt not only not interveen when a student PERCEIVED as gay is whipped with belt buckles until the bruises, welts and cuts require hosptializathion, but he might award the mostn aggressive attackers wih positions on the football team or basketball team. Many churches encourage students to organize such attacks.


Just as it is with anyone else. They seem to be seeking some kind of validation for their lifestyles, rather than keeping it private.

Actually, all it takes to become a target for such attacks is to be PERCEIVED as being gay or transgendered. If you don't make lewd comments about a woman's breasts (because she's a friend), you are GAY. If you don't Drink, fight, fart, and brag about your escapades with women, then you ARE GAY. The people demanding validation are the worst elements of sexism, racism, and arrogance.

Go to any sports team practice. To motivate the team, he will taunt them by calling them a bunch of GIRLS, or QUEERS, the language gets more graphic and more offensive, but doesn't deserve to be repeated again here.


And their tactics are pretty much in your face.

Actually, the group that's "In your face" are the right wing conservative fundamentalist Christians. They have been known to go to the FUNERALS of PERCEIVED homosexuals (whether actually homosexual or not), and proudly brandish signs saying "Death to Queers", and "Queers go to hell". Agani, these are just the "polite" phrases.

The ultimate aim of these groups is to use intimidation to force silence and ignorance. They often accuse the gay community of "recruting" or "turning someone gay". Often this is because they have someone they know, who actually IS gay, but has never been allowed to talk about it with anyone - and finally RUNS to the LGBT community desparately seeking help.
When you consider the entire spectrum of Bisexual-Gay and Transgender-Transsexual, including cross-dressers, fantasies, and so-called "private" desires, it's actually the cis-gender "Alpha Male" Type 1 heterosexual only in fantasy and activity that is the minority, possibly as little as 10% of the total population. But to protect their POWER over others, they use terror to enforce silence.

There are strong motives. The desire to have lots of "Cannon fodder" for the military, for example. To make a general, you need lots of people who will be killed in the first few minutes of the conflict, usually the omega and beta males.

The problem is that 20th and 21st century war is no longer won by wealding a sward, club, or mace. The most critical factor in winnig WW-ii was the ability to read Hitler's "E-mail", made bossible by a gay effeminite man named ALAN TURING, who created a computer program that could crack Hitler's Enigma codes, including the codes to "High Command".


You do not see heterosexual people running around, wearing funny outfits, blowing whistles and proclaiming "We're heterosexual and proud"

No, they would never walk around in white robes with white hoods, or wear T-Shirts with "White Power" symbols, They would never wear funny robes or uniforms that would be associated with real physical threats and past and future military action. They would NEVER get Tatoos to indicate their racist and homophobic and transphobic allegiences. And if you went through the photographs of TEA Party Rallies, you would never see any of these "funny outfits" warn as a warning to candidates, especially in primaries, that it is THOSE kinds of people who vote in the GOP primaries, and since only 1/10th of the voters vote in those off-year primaries and local election primaries, they can unseat even the most successful moderate congressman - unless he accepts their terms and ideologies. (End tirade).


"We're here, we're heterosexual, get used to it"

Usually, the leader is holding a cross, and often there is a man on the cross. Most weekends of the summer, you can see them around these public buildings, the girl is usually wearing a beautiful white gown, and often a hundred or more people come to see the spectacle. Every Sunday, they ring bells so that all of the heterosexual people will know it's time to come inside and hear about how they are good and wonderful and how a transsexual is "An ABOMINATION AGAinST GOD" and should be "STONED TO DEATH". The first time I was STONED I was all of SIX YEARS OLD! I had traded clothes with one of my many girl friends. The mother of that girl called the PTA, and they called ministers, school board members, and the principal of the school, telling the teacher that she would be reassigned to the worst school in the city if she EVER let me play with girls again.

When she sent me out to the playground to play with the boys, they were ready. They told me to pull up clumps of grass, and throw them at the other "Team", but within a few seconds, they were pulling rocks the size of golf balls out of their pants pockets, coat pockets,and BOTH teams formed a circle and started thowing the rocks at me. I still have a scar under my right eye from a rock that would have left me blind if it had gone up instead of to the side. As they threw the rocks, they chanted "Stone the Sissy".

In the following 8 years, I was hospitalized over 64 times.


A persons sexuality is a private matter. Now please explain what rights they are denied.

Suppose that someone saw your posting, and recognized your face? THEN they mass circulated e-mails to every member of your church, showing you in your dress, saying that you were a "Queer", "Sissy", an "Abomination". They sent it to every person at your workplace, and they sent it to every member of your family, incuding your wife, your parents, your children, your aunts, uncles, cousins, and many others.

You go to work the next morning, and you see a note saying "Die FAGGOT" on your desk, where everyone can see it. No one has even bothered to throw it in the trash. At your next business meeting, your input is met with "Well', if we want the opition of "Those people" - limp wrist - "We'll ask you". Then everyone at the meeting starts to giggle, because they don't want to be the NEXT targets.

Your boss calls you in and gives you a rediculous assignment that you can't possibly do, and says, "We'll give you a team to help you", but the team is composed of fundambentalist Christians who have seen your picture and the writing under it claiming that you are not only a cross-dresser, but also homosexual, a "Sissy", and worse.

I've written a whole BOOK about what it is like to be living in stealth and to be "Outed" involuntarily, to me mislabled, and to experience persecution. This is a little taste.

[MelanieAnne]

Melanie, I would appreciate your reasoning for your point of view and answers to my questions much more than your one line dismissive comment. You have strong opinions, so please defend them maturely. I have an open mind and may learn something.
I just explained and defended my opinions. I'm done! Life is too short to waste it crusading and beating your head against a brick wall. Like they say, it feels so good when you stop.

[AllieSF]

Out and Proud, you see that all the time, those heterosexual males full of testosterone wearing masks to copy the team mascot, painting their faces to match the teams colors, wearing a wedge of Swiss cheese on their head to support the Packers, painting their bodies the team color and then getting together with their buddies who do the same thing and the spell out the team's name one letter per painted body. They are proud, happy, very funny and sometimes very weird looking team fanatics and very proud to be male. They do not have to say anything, their presentation and actions do it for them. Those actions even sometimes result in violence just to prove, or maybe confirm to others, their own maleness.

Those special rights that a lot of us LGBT people want are basic human rights, such as not to be discriminated against and attacked for being ourselves. Do you think that it is OK to attack others just because they are different than you are? Why do they make those crimes hate crimes? Hate crimes carry stiffer penalties in both jail time and monetary fines in order to discourage some of those less intelligent testosterone fueled males and estrogen fueled females from committing those crimes. Hate crimes are crimes of discrimination. They exist for racial, ethnic and religious crimes and the same is now applied to us transgender people in many states. We are fighting to get them in all of the states. Hopefully one day the idea of hate crimes will no longer exist and then we probably would not need the special designation.

We don't want special treatment, just equal treatment. When I go out dressed as a woman, I sure do not want to use a male restroom. Here in California I have the right to use the women's restroom and I always do. I do not want to keep my lifestyle, dressing as a women, deep in a dark closet. Why should I? Is it wrong in your opinion to dress as a woman and then go out of the house? I want to go out into the real world and enjoy it without worrying about people harassing me, when I am just walking by regardless of how I am dressed.

I am retired so employment for me is not an issue, but many members here are employed and need their jobs to live. Now in many states is it OK for any employer to fire an employee because they are transgender, a CD or a TS? Both can lose their employment very easily if their companies are against trans people. They lose their jobs and their family suffers. They get beat up for being trans and cannot work or become permanently disabled, all because of a hate crime.

LGB folks have experienced all of the above and so do some of us "T's". Do you think that we maybe deserve to suffer and have unequal rights when compared to the hetero's? The LGB people have forged the way and some how the "T" got added to their movement. I am happy for that. My sexuality is a private matter, my part time gender presentation is not when I am out. Are you saying that I should stay home and keep it private, or if I go out and get attacked that I deserved it? For the LGB folks, only recently have they been able to be themselves. It means that they can say that they have a same sex partner that they love and care for, they can hold their partners hand and even kiss them in public just like our hetero brothers and sisters do, all without being harassed by others, without the possibility that they could lose their jobs, be kicked out of clubs, or whatever.

Now, since TS's also fall under this wonderful umbrella, they have similar needs to our CD side plus many more, including proper medical coverage, employment protection and the ability to transition where they are currently employed without worrying about losing their jobs, insurance coverage to correct their birth defect of being born in the wrong body and many more.

Your statements are very generalized as if all LGBT folks are in your face type of people. Just like in the hetero world, we are made up of all types of personalities. Just look at the difference between you and me. We both like to dress as women, yet we have different views as to how we should live out lives. The same exists in any minority and/or discriminated group. As how we label ourselves, depends on where we are in the spectrum, so does the type of people vary all over the place from the closeted to those out and waving flags, from the conservative to the liberal, from the urban to suburban to out in the boondocks, all with different experiences, viewpoints and local and family cultures.

Power is in numbers and to obtain the rights that you do not want but the majority of us do means that we need to have enough flag wavers, protesters, people who work silently and quietly behind the scenes to help bring about needed change. Since most "T's" are in some way in the closet, it is very difficult to get the necessary mass of people to make something happen. That is why, whether one likes it or not, being a part of the overall LGBT umbrella and part of our "T" spectrum is so important.

Melanie, I respect your opinion, but I do not agree with it. Since you are a member here, I am guessing that you are here to learn and participate with other members. You are not alone with some of your opinions, but I would guess that I could safely say that the large majority of members here do not hold those same opinions. Maybe the topic of this thread and the various posts are something that you can learn from.

[Laura J]

I ma Transgender therefore fit under the 'T' in LGBT. I support the cause, but am not likely to participate in any parades or similar.

[Kimberly Kael]

Are you blaming heterosexuals for AIDS and suicides amongst the LGB folks?

Read any history of the start of the AIDS epidemic and you'll find a pattern of decisions depriving funding and care to people because, in the minds of those in power, they deserved it. Yes, I'm putting much of the blame for not treating the epidemic seriously and doing something about it squarely at the feet of heterosexuals.

As for suicides, let's start an experiment: pick an arbitrary group of people. Let's go with anyone with green eyes. Now get their parents to dismiss their green-eyed lifestyle, tell them they're going to hell, disown them, and while you're at it make sure as many social services as possible refuse to help until they give up having green eyes. Let's see what happens to the suicide rate among those with green eyes. I'm going with "blame" on this one, too.

[ophelia]

I have not examined our Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms to see how it relates to this subject.
Have any of you done so?

Last night's Daily Show article on scientifically supported views on climate change with John Stewart showed just how stupid some of the duly elected members of your House of Representatives are. Am I wrong in assuming that the vast majority in that house use the mens' loo? I'll lay the blame on the fatal inaction on Ebola as well on the very stupid men we have elected in both our great,vastly male and equally stupidly run governments.

[Jorja]

Ophelia, you do understand that the Daily Show is a FAKE news program. It is based on satire and comedy of today's political figures and media organizations. While I am far from impressed with our current Representatives and Senators actions they are the chosen ones to lead our country. Why? I haven't the foggiest idea. It just goes to show we need to elect better people to these offices.

[arbon]

And I have no objection to civil unions, legal contracts, etc. But "marriage" should be between a man and a woman. This is just part of the onging attack on our culture by the left.

And as we know, children learn by observing adults. And children adopted by gay or lesbian couples, will grow up never seeing or knowing a normal mother and father relationship. Raising children involves more than food and clothing and a roof over their heads.


Nope, my adopted daughter is not growing up in a normal mother / father family. She has a mom and a Poppy (her name for me). She is doing just fine, thanks.

Attack on our culture by the left - yep that is me, guilty as charged. When you have experienced discrimination and harassment for being who you are, you get a different perspective on things. I'll be in peoples faces if I have to be for equal rights.

[Dianne S]

But "marriage" should be between a man and a woman. This is just part of the onging attack on our culture by the left.

Umm... wow. Just wow.

I think you are being a bit hypocritical, thinking it's OK for transgender people to have rights including switching their gender markers, but not for LGB people to have same-sex marriage. Also, unfortunately, you think this is a "left" vs. "right" issue. Politics in the US is sadly partisan and dysfunctional, but I think compassionate people can respect gay marriage no matter what their political affiliation.

My daughter has a friend who was adopted by two lesbian parents. Her friend is a wonderful child - funny, smart, balanced and happy. She has a loving home life, a lot better that quite a few hetero couples I know.

[natcrys]

OK. What "rights" do the LGB folks not have, that the rest of us have? The way I see it, they want special rights, treatment, and privileges.If they are assaulted, that's a crime. Just as it is with anyone else. They seem to be seeking some kind of validation for their lifestyles, rather than keeping it private. And their tactics are pretty much in your face. You do not see heterosexual people running around, wearing funny outfits, blowing whistles and proclaiming "We're heterosexual and proud". "We're here, we're heterosexual, get used to it". A persons sexuality is a private matter. Now please explain what rights they are denied.

Whenever I see this kind of argument being made... this comes to my mind every time!

232904

[AngelaYVR]

Not sure about other places but even in the LGBT friendly city that I live in, about the only T that is tolerated is drag queens (and that is a tenuous T at best!) If you are not CDing to pull men, then generally CDs are not really welcomed under this banner. For myself, I don't associate any label to who I am as I believe they are simply there to help other people deal with things they don't understand. Perhaps because dressing is not a core part of my being, just simply something I do, the same way I cycle, bake bread and collect acorns for no good reason in the autumn. Is my dressing really that different, for example, to what rubber fetishists or the BDSM crowd do? Anyway, my twopence. The LGBT have very real daily issues to deal with, I can understand how "hobby" CDs might just be a bit of a side show.

Angela xx

[flatlander_48]

I've been crossdressing all my life. But I'm not into wearing speedos, chaps, and tuu tuus, and blowing whistles in parades. And that group is not doing us or themselves any favors. While they may have some legitimate issues, the way they are going about it just invites blowback and ridicule.

And guys in dresses doesn't? Interesting compartmentalization...


OK. What "rights" do the LGB folks not have, that the rest of us have? The way I see it, they want special rights, treatment, and privileges.If they are assaulted, that's a crime. Just as it is with anyone else. They seem to be seeking some kind of validation for their lifestyles, rather than keeping it private. And their tactics are pretty much in your face. You do not see heterosexual people running around, wearing funny outfits, blowing whistles and proclaiming "We're heterosexual and proud". "We're here, we're heterosexual, get used to it". A persons sexuality is a private matter. Now please explain what rights they are denied.

In many parts of the US, people can be fired from their jobs for being gay. This is the point behind ENDA (employee non-discrimination act). The same goes for being denied housing. There is no legal recourse for these issues. Are you OK with that?

And no, the movement is not about validation. It is about existence; 2 very different concepts.

Also in many places, gay couples cannot adopt children. There are also places where, if one person in a gay couple brings a child to the relationship, the other person cannot adopt the child. In other words, some states have no provision for dual adoption. This mean that the other person has No Legal Standing with the child.

There are 1138 federal regulations, protections and privileges that depend upon marital status. Where gay couples cannot marry, these regulations, protections and privileges don't apply to them.

Back to the original topic, one thing that perhaps people don't know is that it wasn't very long ago that people here in New York could be arrested if they were not wearing at least 3 pieces of clothing consistent with their sex. Crossdressers didn't get that changed. There have never been enough of us out in the world.

Also here in New York is the push for GENDA (gender expression non-discrimination act). While this isn't aimed at crossdressers, I think eventually we may benefit from the fall-out.

Asa crossdresser and a bisexual, I see the issues from both sides, but it doesn't change my opinion. I think anyone who crossdresses, whether you are straight, gay or transexual, has at least some degree of gender dysphoria. As such then, we are transgender. We can deny it if we want, but it doesn't move the needle. And further, if we do not align ourselves with the LGBT community, where do we align ourselves?

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Ophelia, Labels are great for shipping packages but I don't need a label for myself.

[MelanieAnne]

FYI When I make a post. Read it and try and comprehend it, and respond if you wish. But do not come back with a lot of "So you are saying" this or that! Just respond to what I post and not a lot of hypotheticals, and don't go putting words in my mouth. Thanking you in advance.


Read any history of the start of the AIDS epidemic and you'll find a pattern of decisions depriving funding and care to people because, in the minds of those in power, they deserved it. Yes, I'm putting much of the blame for not treating the epidemic seriously and doing something about it squarely at the feet of heterosexuals.


Despite at least two decades of research, education, and millions of dollars spent on aides, aides is actually increasing amongst the homosexual crowd!


• While estimates show that men who have sex with men (MSM) comprise only about 2% of the U.S. population, this group accounts for most new HIV infections (63% in 2010, with an additional 3% occurring in MSM with a history of injection drug use).4,5 Between 2008 and 2010, annual new HIV infections increased 12% among MSM.4

How is that the fault of heterosexuals, and why do you suppose aides is actually increasing amongst the gay crowd? Here it comes......wait for it.
I'll take "What is the result of promiscous and unprotected sex amongst gay people", for $200, Alex!

[flatlander_48]

Promiscuity and marriage are inversely proportional.

[Beverley Sims]

I am similar to you.
Although I will associate with everyone privately and at social gatherings I get little satisfaction in publicly supporting people in a march or parade.

Outside fairs and social gatherings are also good to attend as one can melt into the crowd.

[Julogden]

Well, if you use the definition of terms as stated on this site, that the "T" (Transgender) in LGBT, a crossdressers is transgender and thus falls under the LGBT umbrella. As others have said above, you do not have to participate, carry a flag, or whatever. However, since one of the main purposes of the larger LGBT group is to obtain equal rights for all of its members and to secure necessary legal civil rights protections against discrimination in any shape or form, what they do does have benefits for all of us over the short and long run. So, when you can please do participate, even if it is only supporting and voting for legislation that further and protect our rights.
An excellent take on the situation, IMO, couldn't have said it better.

Carol

[MelanieAnne]

I have crossdressed for 50 years. But I'm not "transgender", no matter how you choose to spin it!

[AllieSF]

That's OK Melanie. It is good for you because it fits what you believe. However, people who follow the current definition of transgender will look and label you differently. Since you crossdress, this site labels you as transgender with the subset of crossdresser. No one is asking you to use that label. But your efforts to tell other people to use a different label will most probably fail for those who agree with the site's definition. They will still see and label you as transgender, as well as, a crossdresser.

Older people and some from the UK who grew up with the term transvestite, which was previously used for crossdressers, may state that they are still transvestites. They are not wrong either, however, others may use other more up to date terminology to describe them. What is used today may change in a few years. I am a crossdresser under the TG umbrella. That is my belief and I have no problem what someone else labels me.