transgenderism is not a choice- great demonstration by Ask Amy

[Krististeph]

By Amy Dickinson (Ask Amy). November 18, 2013. Washington Post.:

DEAR AMY: I recently discovered that my son, who is 17, is a homosexual. We are part of a church group and I fear that if people in that group find out they will make fun of me for having a gay child.

He won’t listen to reason, and he will not stop being gay. I feel as if he is doing this just to get back at me for forgetting his birthday for the past three years — I have a busy work schedule.

Please help him make the right choice in life by not being gay. He won’t listen to me, so maybe he will listen to you. -- Feeling Betrayed

DEAR BETRAYED: You could teach your son an important lesson by changing your own sexuality to show him how easy it is. Try it for the next year or so: Stop being a heterosexual to demonstrate to your son that a person’s sexuality is a matter of choice — to be dictated by one’s parents, the parents’ church and social pressure.

I assume that my suggestion will evoke a reaction that your sexuality is at the core of who you are. The same is true for your son. He has a right to be accepted by his parents for being exactly who he is.

When you “forget” a child’s birthday, you are basically negating him as a person. It is as if you are saying that you have forgotten his presence in the world. How very sad for him.

Pressuring your son to change his sexuality is wrong. If you cannot learn to accept him as he is, it might be safest for him to live elsewhere.

A group that could help you and your family figure out how to navigate this is Pflag.org. This organization is founded for parents, families, friends and allies of LGBT people, and has helped countless families through this challenge. Please research and connect with a local chapter.

[Jaylyn]

He is or maybe a son that has Bi sexual tendencies. I know many experiment as teenagers trying to find acceptance of themselves. He is at the age that one starts to wonder and could be experimenting. I agree that pressuring him could lead to other things because sometimes teens are struggling with who they are. Pressuring can lead them to have the attitude that " if you think this is bad, just wait till you find out I'm a druggie and bi". Sometimes teens do things for shock to get back at parents. I guess one can call it a rebellious stage. My oldest did things because I was too strict on them and we all protect and Hoover too much on the oldest one. The second I was way too easy on and almost lost that one to crazy thing she pulled for attention, the third and fourth kid we were so tired that we just let them grow and mature but set boundaries that we could live with and that they were happy with. I'm one of the lucky parents though all four turned out very successful and are finding raising kids is a hard thing to do. I never had the bi issue come up so can't say any thing that will help here other than one shouldn't be too alarmed but kids will tend to do and live their own lives and most will end up getting life straightened out in their own time and what they really value in life . As parents we just have to make sure they are safe enough to live long enough to get their values set on life. You want them to be happy in life but yet many parents try and dictate what they feel happiness is to them. Sorry about the rant but an old retired school teacher has observed many a youngster in a teaching and can relate to this story to some degree.

[Krisi]

I often wonder if the letters these people publish are real letters from real people or something that they write themselves and then pretend to respond to them.

The first part of the response is pretty much an insult to the "writer". The last two paragraphs are OK.

[hope springs]

I agree with the response, epecially the first paragraph. Mama needed a wake up call and that paragraph illustrates how some people percieve homosexuality.
But i do agree its likely made up, and obvious jab at the intolerant who happen to be religious

[avant1465]

Krisi: That first paragraph is a fine piece of glib sarcasm that helps to put the issue in to perspective... and I think it's appropriate...... (Insult, be damned!!!....).

[bridget thronton]

Perhaps it could have been phrased as a question (do you think you could change your own sexuality for a year?)

[Ressie]

Good way to turn things around but I don't see where he is TG. Are you saying we should change the word homosexual to transgender?

[devida]

I heard Dan Savage complimenting Ask Amy during a recent podcast for this very response. She was a great guest on his show. She identified herself as the token straight girl among her lesbian friends. I assume, probably too charitably, that writers like the one who wanted to rid her son of the gay do not actually know anyone who is gay or lesbian. If they did they would presumably not have such silly ideas. I have hung out with gays and lesbians all my life. Not once did it occur to me that they could change if they really really wanted to.

[Krisi]

I worked with a lady who changed from straight to lesbian. I don't know why, that's not the sort of thing you bring up at work if you want to keep working there. I don't see why a person couldn't change from gay to straight but it would be his own decision, not something forced on him.

[Isabella Ross]

Krisi...are you kidding me? What don't you get? People don't change from straight to lesbian or vice versa. Very appropriate answer from Ask Amy. Is this really 2014?

[Michelle789]

I worked with a lady who changed from straight to lesbian. I don't know why, that's not the sort of thing you bring up at work if you want to keep working there. I don't see why a person couldn't change from gay to straight but it would be his own decision, not something forced on him.

She didn't change from straight to lesbian. Either she was always lesbian, but in denial, or she's bisexual.

Same thing with being transgender. Our gender identity is part of who we are. I didn't go from being a man to a woman. I always was a woman. I suppressed it and lived in denial for 34 years. and am now accepting who I am and living my life as who I really am. I am changing how I live my life, and altering my body to reflect who I really am. I am not changing my gender identity - it has always been a woman.

The only choice I have (or any LGBT) is to accept being transgender, or to accept being gay or lesbian or bisexual. I can choose to deny and repress myself, or to accept and embrace myself.

That thinking that you can change your sexuality or gender identity is very outdated thinking. It's 2014, not 1994.

[kimdl93]

Wow, did this "mother" live in an alternate universe. Forgetting her sons birthday....because she was busy. That says volumes about her self centered view of the world. Don't be gay son, it might embarrass me with the church group.

Loved the answer. I'll remember that next time someone suggests to me that being gay or TG is a choice.

[Tammy Lynn Tx]

I remember back in the 60's, 70's and 80's how everyone thought transvestism ( cross dressing wasn't a term in use at the time) could be cured by different methods. Shock treatment was one of them, hypnotism was another. Guess what ? none worked. I never had shock therapy, but they sure tried the hypnotism. it wasn't until I left home, that I came to the belief that I am what I am. even that took many years ( and a great wife)

[Eryn]

Remember, Ask Amy is an entertainer. What she writes is meant to draw readers and sell advertising. I'd take any advice she gave with many grains of salt.

[Krististeph]

Great responses everyone! I posted this because I love the logic of Amy's "proof" of showing how one can simply change sexual (or gender) orientation at will. not. And yes, this hold just as true and appropriate for gender identities as well.

First of all, yes, the 'mother' is kind of a cartoonish entity, but the remarks attributed to she are close enough to many of the "homosexuality (or CD/TG/TS) is a choice therefore it can be looked down upon as a sin" types of arguments that Amy's response is appropriate. Unless the accuser can legitimately become truly homosexual at will, really want to have sex with men (or become CD/TG/TS: really want to dress in female clothing, or to change their gender or body to become female), and remain that way for a period of time, and then change back, then there is no way that they can claim sexual or gender orientation is a choice.

Sure you can pretend, but that is not reality.

What an awful thing if being homosexual or CD/TG/TS people really are made that way: people would not be able to claim that "God hates fags" anymore...

Or maybe they are saying that God wants you to kick the nicotine addiction??? (Cigarettes are called "fags" (sticks) in England, if not all of GB)

If we are made the way we are by design, why would God hate that? Maybe God actually hates racist, sexist, holier-than-thou, hypocritical dweebs, who fail to use the brain that was given to them to think for themselves. Seems pretty rude to me, rejecting such a gift as the human brain, simply because some greaseball tells you: "do what I say and i'll give you a reward (but not until you die and there is no way to redress if i'm wrong)."

Sorry about the rant, I just thought this was a rather well phrased response, equally applicable to sexual orientation or gender orientation, and quite possibly adaptable to other areas of political/religious judgement.

Interesting too, that this phrase "homosexuality is a choice" comes from many of the same people who proclaim "It's a child <sic>, not a choice."

Still, we are making much better progress than some areas- Russia, take your pick of Middle Eastern or African nations...

Finally, I would not bet that a person may never ever change orientation from hetero to homosexual, or CD/not-CD, but it would be very rare, and it would not be because of a conscious choice.

[Krisi]

A person can change from straight to lesbian or homosexual and vice versa. Just like a person can get religion or lose it. Or change from a biggot to an accepting person. Some folks would have us believe otherwise but those folks have an agenda to push. We are all human and our feelings and beliefs are based on life experiences which often change over our lifetimes.

[Ressie]

Krisi, I see you have a point but if one naturally feels hetero, why would they choose to be homo - vice versa.

[devida]

A person can change from straight to lesbian or homosexual and vice versa. Just like a person can get religion or lose it. Or change from a biggot to an accepting person. Some folks would have us believe otherwise but those folks have an agenda to push. We are all human and our feelings and beliefs are based on life experiences which often change over our lifetimes.


And because you say so it must be true?

Your experience of precisely one person, who might well have been bisexual or perhaps just more sexually fluid than most heterosexuals (hetero-flexible) is sufficient evidence to counter the mountain of scientific research and anecdotal affirmations of gays, lesbians, bisexuals and transgender people who state, unequivocally, that they were born that way?

Don't get me wrong. I personally believe that sexuality, particularly for women, but also for the transgendered, is much more fluid than is generally thought. But again I will say you just cannot have had much experience of gays and lesbians to think that any but a very small minority have the ability to change their sexuality. I would argue that small minority are from birth more sexually fluid than other people.

Here's why believing that sexuality is a lifestyle choice is so harmful to the individual and so corrosive to society:

Asserting that gender or sexual variance is a choice allows social institutions to remove essential human rights from human beings. The ability to express my gender identity and my sexuality is an inalienable right I have that is agreed to by most international associations and most Western nations. In the United States just a very few years ago a series of State laws were enacted that removed the possibility of a basic human right, the right to marry the person you loved. Fortunately the Supreme Court has judged these laws to be unconstitutional and marriage equality will soon be the law throughout the USA. But the human rights violation that created these laws, bipartisan in origin and politically motivated in application, came from the belief that sexual orientation was a choice and therefore a matter that government could dictate. The Supreme Court understood that this was discriminatory in precisely the same way enacting laws to prevent intermarriage between races was discriminatory. By the way my father lost his job because he married my mother, a woman of a non-white race so this kind of discrimination is not theoretical to me but rather personal. The reason he lost his job was precisely the same as the reason the ability to marry for gays and lesbians was removed. It was believed marriage between races was corrosive to society in just the same way that homosexual relationships was believed to be corrosive to society. I remember being called a mongrel when I was a child and having older boys discuss in my hearing whether I could be called a mulatto or a wog, which was what I was called until I got old enough for it to be dangerous to call me that.

So not only do scientists, medical professionals, psychological and psychiatric associations, the Supreme Court, and most international associations, multinational corporations and it appears society in general recognize sexuality as inherent but these same groups assert that not recognizing this is discriminatory.

So the question you need to ask yourself is why do you hold on to a belief that is so counter to scientific evidence and the majority social consensus.

You are, of course, entitled to whatever belief you choose to accept. Perhaps this is a matter of faith. If so then there can be no more discussion on the topic. You are entitled to your faith and whatever your faith requires you to believe. You are even, in a free society, entitled to go out and lobby politically for your belief. And I am entitled to counter it.

It is the wonder of the democratic system and one of the reasons that Martin Luther King said that the arc of history bends towards justice.

[Krisi]

Not because I say it but because I have seen it in real life. It's hard for me to see something in real life and then stand by while someone claims that I didn't really see it.

[bimini1]

There is no one size fits all. Different people express different sexualities at different times. Some are born gay, some choose to be gay. I know this to be true because I had a friend in college who chose gayness. Said he was looking for some older sugar daddy to pay his way and wound up getting caught up. Some may say well he was not really gay. Well he sure as hell was acting on it. He should have written a book with all the freaky tales he'd have for me about his exploits.
A few years later he married a beautiful female classmate.
I had another gay friend who told me he did not believe he was born gay but adopted the "lifestyle" due to something that happened to him as a child.

I've known others who are just "straight gay" LOL. You knew it from day one and will be gay until the day they leave this earth, and probably even after that.

So it's all over the map. A lot of folks will come with, no one chooses to be gay. I don't believe that. There are some that choose it just like there are some who had no choice in the matter and just are.

As for TG. It's related but not the same. All over the map though. Look at the diversity here. Non TG part time CDs, full time CDs who are not TG. Just any and everything you can and cannot imagine. Some who have already transitioned in mind but not body. Some who mentally transition only when dressed, when in drab,eh not so much. A part time TG/CD.

[natcrys]

Not because I say it but because I have seen it in real life. It's hard for me to see something in real life and then stand by while someone claims that I didn't really see it.

I wonder what you have seen as evidence... people returning from gay-reform therapy? Students experimenting with and exploring their sexuality?

Anyway.. your personal experiences are your own.. but don't state it like it's the commonly accepted truth on being or "choosing" gay (or whatever else).

There is no credible peer-reviewed scientific evidence that sexual orientation can be changed. American Psychological Association: Resolution on Appropriate Affirmative Responses to Sexual Orientation Distress and Change Efforts (http://www.apa.org/about/policy/sexual-orientation.aspx)

Nobody chooses to be gay.. nobody chooses to run the risk of being bullied, beaten up or killed.. just to be able to flaunt it.

Similarly with crossdressing: it's not a choice. Nobody wakes up one day and says "My life isn't complicated enough. I think I'll put on women's clothes."

[Ressie]

Not because I say it but because I have seen it in real life. It's hard for me to see something in real life and then stand by while someone claims that I didn't really see it.

I've seen it too. I've seen those that are intersex, which means they were born with both male and female sex organs in some capacity. I've seen prepubescent children that obviously exhibit traits of the opposite sex or should I say you can tell that they're gay way before puberty.

And you're right, people change religious beliefs, but we aren't born with religous beliefs, we learn them. People sometimes realize that they've been wrong in the bigoted views, but we learn prejudice, it's not something we're born with. And there are also those heteros that had thoughts of homosexuality since they can remember, but always suppressed them. Anyone that later in life chooses to try switching teams, has always had a curiosity of what it would be like IMHO. If not born that way, something may have happened during childhood to cause this, but it's still not something that was chosen.

Just the intersex part alone proves a lot of what we are born with. This is reality, not simply someone's observation. Observation isn't scientific. It's simply opinion.

[Alice Torn]

We are all made in the womb, with proneness, to certain proclivities. Later, we choose what we will do with those. I know a lady, who had a tall, nice looking son, in his 20's, and he dated and had girlfriends. But, they kept breaking his heart, and devastated him. Then, suddenly, he started dating men. That was 12 years ago, and he is still gay. I sometimes wonder, if he, and some men, get so fed up with being hurt by GG's, that they choose the other side of the street?! Love is where you find it, and truth is, there is not much love in this world, and, the natural state between GG's and men, is not doing well. Just a thought.

[Nadya]

It's scary to think that people like this are still out there and trying to change people to something "normal." Ugh, it is incredibly frustrating to hear about.

[Krististeph]

A person can change from straight to lesbian or homosexual and vice versa. Just like a person can get religion or lose it.
... Some folks would have us believe otherwise but those folks have an agenda to push.
... Our feelings and beliefs are based on life experiences which often change over our lifetimes.

A person can change, yes, but not because of conscious intent. Change must come from honest belief. Getting or losing religion is a great example. A person loses belief because they see too many contradictory things to the belief they had. Regaining religion- one cannot choose simply to believe something without honest reason. they can say they believe without it, they can lie to themselves that they believe, they can be lied to to be tricked into believing, but cannot honestly change of their simple decision.

The original premise stands as presented: I assume you Krisi, are CD or TG or TS. Prove me wrong, by changing into a non-CD/TG/TS person for a month. Then change back. You can tell me whatever you want, but if you tell me you honestly have no desire to CD or be feminine or whatever your orientation is for a month, then turn it back on, you are lying. Period. i'm not talking about saying you have changed, or even telling yourself you have changed. No. Not the same thing at all. True change is not up to the conscious.

Now if you were motivated enough, you may suppress the feeling for a long time, and try to replace them with other feeling and positive or negative re-inforcement. You may develop an aversion to whatever form of CD/TG/TS you are, but that is not a true change in what you are, it is only hating yourself, your true self, how you were made, or what you have grown to become, replacing that with bigotry.

And we have plenty of examples of that, unfortunately. These are the people with agendas. People who say I cannot willingly change my gender orientation, do not have agendas, they simply believe what they have found to be true all of their lives, and believe concurrance of the vast majority of others like them.

But let's set that aside for a second, and look at the success rate of intentionally directed sexual or gender re-orientation efforts by force, coersion, or even voluntary compliance. ummm... I don't have any hard data, but the only claimed successes are by peoples WITH KNOWN HIGHLY POLARIZED AGENDAS, and these are well outnumbered by the abject failures of such efforts reported by people and organizations who have to deal with the debilitating negative effects of said 'treatment'

There is ever a fundamentalist church or association in California that recently made a statement that they acknowledge that attempts at sexual (or gender(?)) orientation reassignment were ineffective, and they would no longer try to do such. Pretty radical for a fundamentalist-type agenda, even they admit it does not work (kudos to them for honesty, I'm sure their god appreciates the honest admission, rather than intentionally suppressing truth)

But Krisi- I say the above not to be argumentative about it, but to clarify the issue, of course. In my heartfelt opinion, i think we (You, I, and they rest of us here) are all pretty much on the same page about this- i understand your desire for full disclosure rather than a simple polarized agreement- also quite laudable.

From Ryce:

It's scary to think that people like this are still out there and trying to change people to something "normal." Ugh, it is incredibly frustrating to hear about.

I agree Ryce. Who are these people who think they know what 'normal' is? I have an idea: people who are sheltered in one form or another, not well traveled, and have not met many others outside of their 'conclave'. Gee I wonder what kind of people that could be... <eyes rolling>

And trying to meet the norm- why should you need to try be like the norm anyway? Talk about a limited imagination, WTF do these people think we were given brain that can imagine and invent for in the first place?

And who is this guy Norm anyway? :-) I think if i met him i'd have to slap him senseless and paint his nails alternating fluorescent bright pink and lime green. (But no way I'm wasting a pretty wedding dress on him...)

:-)

[traci_k]

Let me weigh in here and I hope I don’t get my head cut off. Personally I believe that sexuality, like gender exists on a spectrum, decidedly hetero and gay on opposite ends of the spectrum and the many in the middle. I believe more people would be bi-sexual if only they would give themselves half a chance. I think that sexuality is more fluid than most people would like to believe. Those at the ends, they’ll probably never change, they were born that way. Those in the middle, due to societal and other factors, being more fluid, adopt more of a preference, and may seemingly change from hetero to gay or vice-versa, depending on how much they may choose to repress of a non-binary sexuality, similar to the gender identity spectrum where you have binarys i.e. cis-men and cis-women and trans-men and trans-women on the extremes, and non-binarys in the middle. Celebrate Diversity. People should be free to love whom they wish and express gender however they wish in the way that suits them.

My point, for some it may be a choice of preference, for others not. I think there is too much diversity in the human experience to pigeonhole people no matter how much we may like to so to fit our ideas. JMHO

[Krisi]

Krististeph, I have nothing to prove to you or anybody so I'm not going to accept your challenge.

We are not born heterosexual or homosexual, there is no "gay gene". Our sexual choices are based on life experiences as we are growing up starting at birth. As I mentioned concerning my former co-worker and Alice mentioned in post #23, our preferences can change during our lifetimes. Most of us don't change but some do.

Important: I am not trying to say that a person can be made to change from homosexual to straight by outside pressure, I am saying (again) that sexual orientation is personal and based on personal life experiences.

[sometimes_miss]

I know many experiment as teenagers trying to find acceptance of themselves. .
I have always taken issue with the word experiment as used here, because it assumes that the results could go either way. People are not doing experiments with their sexuality; if you want to kiss and have sex with someone of the opposite sex, well then there's no experiment necessary to tell you what you are, all you're getting is confirmation if it's the right or wrong person, not the right or wrong sex. There is no control being done. What they are doing, is searching to find out who and what they are. There is a huge number of bisexual people who cannot admit it to themselves, much less anyone else.

[natcrys]

Krististeph, I have nothing to prove to you or anybody so I'm not going to accept your challenge.

We are not born heterosexual or homosexual, there is no "gay gene". Our sexual choices are based on life experiences as we are growing up starting at birth. As I mentioned concerning my former co-worker and Alice mentioned in post #23, our preferences can change during our lifetimes. Most of us don't change but some do.

Important: I am not trying to say that a person can be made to change from homosexual to straight by outside pressure, I am saying (again) that sexual orientation is personal and based on personal life experiences.

Yes, sexual orientation is personal, but one is born with it (most likely somewhere on the spectrum going from hetero <> bi <> gay). Science does seem to agree that personal life experiences can shape and nudge a little bit here and there.

Anyway, you might not have to prove anything for yourself, but for a rational discussion, evidence and proof is required. Not anecdotal stories about a co-worker or a cousin or a couple of students.. but actual peer-reviewed publications like the one I provided on gay-conversion-therapy.

Can insights on these matters change? Sure, that's the great thing about the scientific method! It's supposed to be dynamic,.. but for now, science says that you're wrong.

Just making sure that readers here get that distinction. :)

And just like in an another thread (which shall not be named).. I'm glad that policies and laws are made with rational thought in mind. ;)

(on average... I know. the world isn't perfect)

[Windsong]

A person can change from straight to lesbian or homosexual and vice versa. Just like a person can get religion or lose it. Or change from a biggot to an accepting person. Some folks would have us believe otherwise but those folks have an agenda to push. We are all human and our feelings and beliefs are based on life experiences which often change over our lifetimes.

Well put Krisi....we all have and make choices in our lives, whether it is based on a situation or person "who made me do it" or not. Its part of what makes us human in our journey through life and life's lessons. We chose what we want to do and experience its called taking responsibility for our actions.

[heather ann martin]

For me no choice whatsoever. I've known I'm female from day one.

[mariehart]

I long ago came to the conclusion that anyone who genuinely believes you can choose your sexuality is in fact either bisexual or indeed gay/lesbian.

I would the majority of straight people and indeed gay people knew straight away who they were attracted too. The majority of men out there didn't wrestle with the dilemma of whether or not to be attracted to girls when they hit puberty and the same for women.

But imagine if you realise that you are attracted to both male and female or indeed those of the same sex. But also strictly religious or living in a world where being gay is unacceptable, this world in fact. You may in fact decide to choose not to be gay or attracted to the same sex. Of course it's not choice it's denial and it's often understandable.

What not understandable or acceptable is that far too many of these people go further and become homophobic almost as form of compensation for their sinfulness. Like the homophobic preacher who was eventually outed by his gay lover.

You may choose not to react to your instincts but it's not the same thing as choosing your sexuality.

Incidentally put in the word transgender and similar thoughts apply.