Consciously acting female

[Kate T]

I was reading something recently that talked about gender perception by people we meet. I don't know specifically where the theory came from but the author proposed that most people on initially meeting someone subconsciously assign them a gender based on various mostly physical clues that the individual is giving e.g. hair length, breasts, facial hair, clothing style, voice. These clues are then subconsciously categorised into a "gender template" that informs our initial response and determination of someones gender.

All this is fairly obvious to all of you on this forum but what I found interesting was that the author then went on to theorise that once a "gender template" had been filled, and most people only have a binary gender template i.e. male or female, anything incongruous with that gender template e.g. obvious breasts on someone with a beard, dressed in mens clothes with short crew cut hair, then is used to inform the persons assessment of the "authenticity" of the individual. Thus the individual described above is regarded by most people as having some question mark over their trustworthiness, at least until other factors affect our assessment of that trustworthiness.

What I am curious about is how many of you have made specific efforts to adopt stereotypical female associated gender behaviours in order to be perceived as more "authentically" female by the general public? Pursuant to this question I also ask do you find this necessity to adopt what are essentially socially constructed stereotypes to be somewhat grating and do you not worry that you end up reinforcing a stereotype that has been used to discriminate against you your whole life?

[Angela Campbell]

I initially studied this a lot. Learned a lot that was good and a lot that was wrong. Eventually I just learned to be natural and be me. I just dropped the man.

[Starling]

...I just learned to be natural and be me. I just dropped the man.

Amen, Angela. I don't believe there is such a thing as "female behavior," but only the behavior of individuals. To self-consciously attempt to "act like a woman" feels forced and uncomfortable, to oneself and to others, just as exaggerated mannerisms do in females-at-birth. It's simply bad acting, a counterproductive means to compensate for perceived failings in presentation.

:) Lallie

[Angela Campbell]

Yes although there are things to learn. It begins with a conscience effort to make yourself smaller. Men try to take up a lot of space, women do not. Arms in, legs together smooth movements. I see so many who are transitioning that walk like a guy and that is a huge tell.

Voice is another one to work very hard on. Also how to use less makeup. How to dress appropriately, There is a lot to learn but it takes getting out there to do it.

[Kate T]

Yes although there are things to learn. It begins with a conscience effort to make yourself smaller. Men try to take up a lot of space, women do not. Arms in, legs together smooth movements. I see so many who are transitioning that walk like a guy and that is a huge tell.


I do not doubt it. But how do you respond to my second question? i.e. Does it not concern you that you are reinforcing socially constructed gender stereotypes that in the past have been used to discriminate against you?

[I Am Paula]

We do learn SOME female behavior, but the vast majority of it is already in us. We were born women after all. Stereotypes, I don't think so. Men and women use their space on earth differently. Period.
A TS woman does not 'act' feminine, she just is.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I do not doubt it. But how do you respond to my second question? i.e. Does it not concern you that you are reinforcing socially constructed gender stereotypes that in the past have been used to discriminate against you?

Actually many of us end up deeply invested in our binary gender..

You see Adina being true to yourself is what's important...

There can be a reasonable debate about what socially constructed gender stereotypes are and what are their impact...pros and cons....
but why on earth would it bother me to express my true gender...

what exactly do you think I should be concerned about?

should I not work walk a "certain way" so as not to reinforce some nebulous theoretical damage having to do with socially constructed gender stereotypes.? nope.

[becky77]

We do learn SOME female behavior, but the vast majority of it is already in us. We were born women after all. Stereotypes, I don't think so. Men and women use their space on earth differently. Period.
A TS woman does not 'act' feminine, she just is.

I was thinking this myself, there is definitely stuff to unlearn but most of it comes naturally and it's about letting go and just being. To have to put on an act would make me question what would be the point of Transition? There will need to be some changes as we would have naturally picked up male traits because of growing up in a masculine role, with male friends etc.
It's hard to say as we are all different, a friend of mine who believes she may transition. Walks like a man, postures like a man, takes up space like a man and generally has a mans energy, is she a true TS? I have no idea really, only time will tell.

[whowhatwhen]

For me it was letting go of consciously emulating male behaviours, however that doesn't mean that there aren't any subconscious ones going on.
I decided that I was not ever going to force any behaviours because **** it I'm done with that.

I figure I'm more likely going to be read male by my facial features and body than any mannerisms.

[DebbieL]

When I was a kid I couldn't hide the girl, and I caught heck for it. My parents were loving and kind, but the boys at school were merciless.
They made fun of how I sat, how I ate, how I talked, how I walked, how I held my hands, how I laughed, how I cried.
Often, the consequences for being to "Sissy" were pretty severe. Nothing like laying on the ground while 10-15 boys kick you everywhere covered by clothes for 30 minutes to make you make some attempt to "hide the girl", but she was in there.

Many people thought I was gay because I was so naturally feminine even when I tried to hide it.

When I started RLE, it was amazing how little had to be "learned". There were a few things I was encouraged to try and a few habits I had to break, but for the most part, at was just me coming out naturally. I'd say the things I had to actually "learn" were things that little girls often have to learn too, like not plopping into a chair. When I wear pants I sometimes slip into figure 4, but in a skirt, if I want to sit with my leg up, I tuck the crossed leg under my other leg instead of over, I usually do that as a guy and get grief for it, but as a girl, it's not as graceful as I should be, but naturally feminine, like a young girl would do.

When I read books that discussed the things girls do differently, I was surprised at how often I had just been doing that naturally all my life.

I finally realize why I had so much trouble passing as a man. :-D

[LeaP]

I'm with many of the others. Letting go of learned and controlled mannerisms is key. That's not to dismiss picking up behavior patterns that might help you pass, but I look at picking up any new behaviors as more a matter of etiquette - the goal isn't to replace one type of artificiality with another.

Letting go can be difficult as control and protect instinct becomes very ingrained. It doesn't take much to remind you of its strength. I get the occasional correction even today, and it still hits hard.

[Angela Campbell]

I do not doubt it. But how do you respond to my second question? i.e. Does it not concern you that you are reinforcing socially constructed gender stereotypes that in the past have been used to discriminate against you?

I reinforce no stereotypes. I am a woman and I do many things differently than a man. I don't go around worrying about being discrimated against. I will be and always have been. Face it women are different, but not all the same way.

[LeaP]

The gender stereotype reinforcement point comes up in a lot of feminist literature when talking about trans women. There's truth to the accusation, although there are a variety of reasons, most of which result in unintended stereotype reinforcement. It can be a simple as intentionally going a little overboard to compensate for male cues, for example. The intention isn't to reinforce a stereotype, but it's easy to pick on whatever the action was - too much makeup, frilly dressing, the walk or talk, ... whatever. That said, I occasionally see something pretty egregious, and read a lot of stuff (including here) that has me wondering about some people and their motivations. The gender community can be a pretty strange place at times.

[Kathryn Martin]

Gender is entirely a social construct. There is nothing innate about gender. It is a socially constructed norm used to oppress women. Everything that is "feminine" is a constructed norm, the entire concept of "beauty" that we confront as women daily is a constructed norm. Gender differences are are a constructed norm. All of these are used to re-inforce role compliant behavior. For this reason they are learned behaviors not anything innate.

Read feminist thought. Read about male privilege (http://amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/), and for God's sake don't take up so much space.

[Angela Campbell]

But those social constructs evolved from something. Gender has differences even in animals

[ReineD]

Gender is entirely a social construct. There is nothing innate about gender. It is a socially constructed norm used to oppress women. Everything that is "feminine" is a constructed norm, the entire concept of "beauty" that we confront as women daily is a constructed norm. Gender differences are are a constructed norm. All of these are used to re-inforce role compliant behavior. For this reason they are learned behaviors not anything innate.

Read feminist thought. Read about male privilege (http://amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/), and for God's sake don't take up so much space.

Well said!

Adina to answer your questions, the TSs that I know do not reinforce the feminine stereotypes any more than GGs do … keeping in mind that my friends are my age and with life experience comes confidence and a lesser need to make a statement about femininity. It is my experience that younger women reinforce the stereotypes more than older ones and they do this during the mating and reproducing stages of their lives. Ultra-femininity is useful for this. :)

[Starling]

I agree that many of us consciously--if imperfectly--mimicked stereotyped male behavior, in order to avoid getting the crap beaten out of us; and that a huge part of becoming oneself is merely dropping the pretense. Despite my most rigorous self-policing, though, I unconsciously crossed my leg under rather than over, put my hands on my hips, reclined with my legs out to one side, slightly bent, while leaning on my hand and I'm sure made gestures that were definitely not "male." Had I been able to cross my too-short legs at the knee and curled one foot behind the other calf, I know I would have done it. And I learned long ago how to be small, to yield to larger vessels.

I'm trying even now, when I'm not full-time, to maintain my physical honesty and shine on the stares.

:) Lallie

[Kate T]

Read feminist thought. Read about male privilege (http://amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/), and for God's sake don't take up so much space.

I'm not sure if you were directing this to me Kathryn but if you were I think it is a little harsh. Reread my OP and I think you will find I have absolutely no argument with you that gender is a social construct. And yes, I have and continue to read feminist thought. Yes I understand about male privilege. Thats why I'm asking doesn't it concern you that you're, albeit as Lea points out unintentionally, reinforcing social prejudices?

[Aprilrain]

To be female is to reinforce misogyny. It just is. Men who will judge us for simply being female aren't going to change if we act like men.

[Kathryn Martin]

Adina this was not at all directed at you but more of a general comment .....

April, isn't that blaming women for the misogyny they experience at the hands of men?

[Rianna Humble]

This whole thread seems to be about blaming women for behaving like a female. Even to the extent that some members who pint out that they are just behaving naturally were accused of
reinforcing socially constructed gender stereotypes

[Aprilrain]

April, isn't that blaming women for the misogyny they experience at the hands of men?

I can see how my comment might be taken that way but my point was misogynistic men hate women simply for existing. It wouldn't matter what a woman did or did not do, these men believe women are inferior. I believe Adina, perhaps unwittingly, has suggested that being feminine is something to be avoided if one to be taken seriously. Men (and quite a few women too) need to learn that just because women are different than men that does not make us inferior

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Right...I can't speak to the intent of the OP but I can guess
...I can say for certain that the last paragraph frames the point in a very negative way

" I also ask do you find this necessity to adopt what are essentially socially constructed stereotypes to be somewhat grating and do you not worry that you end up reinforcing a stereotype "

It implies that consciously trying to unwind learned behaviors and being more feminine is somehow perpetuating a horrible state of affairs..its ridiculous.

As if crossing my legs a certain way or wearing makeup is nothing more than subjugating myself to evil men that dominate and oppress us...


The whole thing is silly and boring and i'm surprised you are all falling for it..

[Thea Pauline]

This is exactly how it was for me as well. I liken it to taking off a man suit, that was cut in such a manner that it restricted my movements to those of "male". Once I quit getting up in the morning and putting on the suit, times of being misgendered went way down and now I never even think about my movement or whether I am 'doing woman' correctly. Of course I am, I am one.

[Starling]

...Once I quit getting up in the morning and putting on the suit...I never even think about my movement or whether I am 'doing woman' correctly...

This is a powerful point. The different things that women do and the clothes they wear; the shape of their bodies, breasts which get in the way; having longer hair and (especially) nails; the amount of time it takes to perform personal hygiene and grooming; having stuff on your face and lips that requires frequent attention: all these bring forth ways of acting and moving and, thence, of thinking and feeling as well. And it all becomes second nature, rather than studied or self-conscious. Not that all women are just the same, of course, but there are enough commonalities in the female quotidium* to assert a kind of general, overall effect of femaleness that is not stereotypical.

:) Lallie

*neologism warning

[KellyJameson]

I think this is a good conversation. My compliments to you Adina.

Gender comes out of are sexual differentiation. if there were not two sexes making everyone 'sexless" there would be no such thing as gender.

Gender needs contrasts because it is based on measurements just as sexual differentiation is.

There is a sexual binary created by nature that human beings have built on that they refer to as gender and gender roles. Gender binary as an extension of the sexual binary.

The gender binary is largely about sex and sexual relations which is why transsexuals are viewed as so threatening (abnormal)

If you believe as I do that transsexuals are created by nature and not as a social human construct than you look for your gender within nature and than by extension into the human social sphere.

Anyone can call themselves transgendered or transsexual and it is very possible to transition and not be a transsexual. Changing the outside will not change the physical brain to a degree great enough to change the physical experience and expression of gender. (sexual differentiation of the brain)

Gender is cut into you somewhere between when egg meets sperm and in the first years of life when the brain is still organizing itself but the template was laid in the womb and probably genetically influenced.

Transsexuals are born regardless of transitioning.

Transitioning does not make you a woman but only allows you to live as you already are.

It feels very much like a "becoming" because what is inside is allowed to bloom. Much like a seed holds its potential inside but needs the right environment to bring it forth.

You can breath when before you were choking. Things now feel natural.

Transitioning takes where nature stopped that affects how the transsexual can live and extends it.

It is shaping the external to conform to the internal. Modern medicine simply takes what transsexuals have been doing since the beginning "farther" but people have always shaped the outside to reflect the inside as they are "compelled" to do

I have found that the binary becomes almost meaningless once you transition but beforehand it is all you focus on as a part of the complusion to understand gender from living outside it.

I have also found I think far less about being perceived "authentically" because I am. It is when you are not that you are compelled to "be perceived as such"

I can see it in how I dress which is largely jean jacket, jeans and boots. I have a closet full of skirts but would only wear them for a reason other than "gender".

I think there is a tension carried inside to be perceived as you know yourself to be (authentically) and the distance you are removed from this experience by others.

This can create a type of fanaticism from the frantic need to be perceived and the fear you will not be and partly why some transsexuals are so militant.

This militancy is largely absent from those who transition and are able to go stealth. They have no need for it.

I do not consciously "act female" nor am I militant. There is no need for it.

Speaking to misogyny males are socialized "to not be females" because to be female is to be weak and "less than" males. Females are "pathetic" because they have no "power" and "resented" when they do.

Misogyny is a form of projection where the male rejects those unwanted "weak" parts of himself onto the female which he than "hates" (as hating her) but they are actually the parts of himself he hates from being immersed in the collective hate of women by men.

These men are very dangerous to transsexuals because they represent "failure" to men "to be men" which is something many men are terrified by.

Sex/children make women dangerous to men making her even easier to hate when he is already filled with hate for himself as that which is represented in her.

Hate is always personal.

[Kathryn Martin]

Gender binary as an extension of the sexual binary.

Kelly, I would disagree with you on this point. The gender binary with all it's attributes is a socially constructed re-inforcement mechanism of a male interpretation of the sex binary not it's extension. There is no rational connection in substance between biological sex and the gendered society we live in.

Oh I just came across this:

Gender is defined by the World Health Organisation (http://www.who.int/gender/whatisgender/en/) as “the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women”.

[Angela Campbell]

If there was no difference between the sexes and the way they behave it wouldn't have evolved this way. It seems.

[Kathryn Martin]

There is a significant difference between the sexes, just look at the whole reproductive organization and the hormonal organization. Just don't believe that the social constructs of gender have anything to do with those differences. They are an interpretation of of the differences which enforce compliance with power dynamics.

[Eryn]

I think that most TG people initially try to emulate, in a rough fashion, feminine behavior. We consciously try to walk, talk, and use gestures as females do.

Much of this is learned behavior for GGs as they grow up. They were taught to "act feminine" by their parents and peers. We get the short, self-study course.

TG folks, as we gain experience, also fall into this model. We learn though many interactions, observations, and trial-and-error how women act in a wide range of situations and naturally act as is expected of us.

There is no one way to act, though. Some GGs cuss like sailors and others are prim and proper. Eventually we learn enough to "be ourselves" and exist comfortably with our current reality.

[Kate T]

April, as always direct and to the point. I think you are correct in that, most certainly unwittingly, I have perhaps implied that being feminine is somehow a negative reflection on the individual. It should not be. That was definitely not my intent. Your last comment "Men need to learn that just because women are different from men does not make us inferior" is a good reminder to me to make sure I don't fall into that mistake.

Rianna, my intent was not to blame women for being women at all. If, as Kathryn suggests, gender is a social construct and we learn socially appropriate gender markers and behaviour, then at some stage for the TS individual they must be unlearned and socially appropriate gender markers for their target gender must replace them. What is natural behaviour? Who decides what behaving like a female is?

Kathryn and Kelly, your points about the connections (or lack there of) between physiologic sex and gender I think are really interesting. Certainly one can make arguments for social gender definitions based on physiologic sex e.g. men are more aggressive and more driven because of testosterone is the obvious one, but as Kathryn points out, are these immutable links or are they variable? Whilst it is not possible for men to bear children they can certainly feed and care for them once they are born, a role at one point in time thought exclusively physiologically only viable for physiologic females. Should physiologic sex have ANY bearing on social gender? Is it possible to create a genderless society?

[Angela Campbell]

There is a significant difference between the sexes, just look at the whole reproductive organization and the hormonal organization. Just don't believe that the social constructs of gender have anything to do with those differences. They are an interpretation of of the differences which enforce compliance with power dynamics.

There's much more to it than that. There is the level of aggression, the tendency towards nurturing, physical strength (on average) the tendancies to work in groups or to compete, there is much more to it. There have been differences in the behaviors of the two sexes from the beginning. It takes place in the animal world as well when the mother behaves one way while the male behaves in a different way. This is not from social constructs.
However we have taken it to a much refined level.

[LeaP]

I agree, Angela. The particulars of the expression may be cultural (which I think better than "constructed"), but the drive to express differently is not. It is also true that many of those particulars are oppressive.

[DebbieL]

I agree, Angela. The particulars of the expression may be cultural (which I think better than "constructed"), but the drive to express differently is not. It is also true that many of those particulars are oppressive.

Some of our gender expressions are natural, a part of our evolution. Many traits are designed to help women bare, raise, and protect her children, as well as keep a man who functions as protector and provider.

Many gender traits of men are the product of centuries of war. The weak and timid would be killed in the first few minutes of a battle, while the alpha males would fight, survive, and come home to not just one, but often many wives.

But in the last 200 years something changed. Rifles, machine guns, and cannon could cause the deaths of hundred in minutes. In the United States, the Civil War killed much of the alpha male population. World War 1 killed more, followed by the Spanish flu, Scarlet fever and Polio, and the Great Depression. Those who survived had children who fought in WW-II which killed millions more soldiers with alpha male tendencies.

Because the 4-Fs were kept home, they survived and went on to have children of their own. Perhaps this was an important part of our evolution, especially since we now had the power to make war in ways that could kill everyone on the entire planet. Even in WW-II, the decisive elements were technologies developed by gays, transgenders, and women - programs such as MI-6 and cracking the Enigma.

Perhaps this is one of the reasons why we are seeing an increase in the number of men who are transgender, as well as increased acceptance of transgender males.

[Kathryn Martin]

There's much more to it than that. There is the level of aggression, the tendency towards nurturing, physical strength (on average) the tendancies to work in groups or to compete, there is much more to it. There have been differences in the behaviors of the two sexes from the beginning. It takes place in the animal world as well when the mother behaves one way while the male behaves in a different way. This is not from social constructs.
However we have taken it to a much refined level.

All of the examples that you have given, including what you say about the animal kingdom is sex based behavior. This has nothing to do with the social construct of gender as we find it in society. When is the last time an animal got shamed for these:

peroids - shame
masturbation - shame
body shape or size - shame
enjoying sex - shame
not enjoying sex - shame
wearing dowdy clothing - shame
wearing sexy clothing - shame
not having the same strength - shame

I could go on and on. And these are just examples. None of these and the many other ways in which oppression because of gender norms happens are in any way a direct outflow of sex differentiation between the sexes.

[Angela Campbell]

I'm not sure if you were directing this to me Kathryn but if you were I think it is a little harsh. Reread my OP and I think you will find I have absolutely no argument with you that gender is a social construct. And yes, I have and continue to read feminist thought. Yes I understand about male privilege. Thats why I'm asking doesn't it concern you that you're, albeit as Lea points out unintentionally, reinforcing social prejudices?

I would tend to disagree. All those things are the results of the differences between the sexes. Yes gender does seem to result in discrimination, but it is not totally a construct.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I recall earlier this year Kathryn you made a comment about women over 50 with long hair being appalling...I remember it well because i'm 52 and my hair is plenty long (as an aside, I am apparently NOT very invisible to men even tho i'm 50+)...and we kidded each other over it.....

anyway... we all communicate in a social way and our language and behavior is gendered. This is always and forever.
However, there is no need, nor would I desire there to be a genderless society.. And there never will be a genderless society.

That's because gender is more than a social construct...its the number one fundamental principal of organization and communication for human beings...its in everything
and in my opinion, separating sex and gender with too sharp a line is an intellectual exercise that can spur an intellectual debate.
However even though there is gender and sex...and its mostly social and its biological.. but they are deeply intertwined ..

Adina mentioned child birth and babies...its a nice sentiment...and actually lots of dads care about their babies and take wonderful care of them
...but a mothers love is so much more than a social construct and almost everybody knows this because its real, and it has nothing to do with socially created constructs to subjugate women...

Maybe most importantly, arguing that gender stands alone ignores the biological reality that these social constructs are created by two groups that are fundamentally biologically driven..one leads to the other
...imagine arguing that gravity is different than a ball falling to the ground everytime... they are different but the ball would not fall without gravity... we can talk about the ball, but gravity is the driving force... and when we see that ball fall we all intuitively know that gravity makes it happen..


It's true that some social stereotypes make many women feel ashamed ... this is well, a shame. and its something worth changing and it is changing...btw..its interesting to me that much of the recent narrative in this regard is sadly about victimhood and not empowerment.. the recent focus on domestic violence and the so called war on women seems misguided and negative to me....don't hurt me, don't rape me is a lot different than i am woman hear me roar... but it does reflect the biological reality of strength and aggression... should we take strength and aggression out of life?? what then of being a man?...should we take the testosterone out of their bodies?? take the fight out of them??


It's interesting because I feel alot of shame that has resulted in a negative impact on my life...my own shame is about being socially raised as a boy and breaking all the rules of what manhood should be...so i do get that social constructs can create shame..
but complicating this was 40 years of testosterone inside me...it was a biological reality that i had these "social" feelings that conflicted with my gender (or as professors would say my sex)

I love wearing my hair long..i enjoy making myself up at times.. i have certainly (consciously at first) changed the way i carry myself in walking and sitting.. i am 6'2 and i have made myself "small" many times because it feels right to me...
i feel no shame about this..it does not grate on me... perhaps that's because i never learned to be socially shamed as female.

[becky77]

If being feminine is socially constructed by men, then in theory its learned behavior?
Having been brought up as a man, influenced by men and given all the privilege how come it was all so alien to me? I grew up trying to fit in and be the man, so I should have been masculine in nature by virtue of being taught to be masculine?

My Nephew from early on has always been a boy, he has an older very girly sister and his parents do not conform to gender stereotyping. So why is it he has a deep dislike for anything female, is dominating, always playing aggressive games and generally naturally stamps his male authority on any situation. He never learned this it was there from the beginning.

I've always crossed my legs as that's comfortable for me, is that a feminine stereotype?
I love a get together and chat with the girls and totally switch off with any conversation about cars or sports etc. I have never been interested in that even when I tried hard to like those things to fit in, again am I stereotyping or just being myself?
Personally I think this part of the thread is utter rubbish, just be yourself.

My older niece when she was young adored everything pink and Barbie dolls, she was a typical girly girl and I'm pretty sure at that time she wasn't thinking "I must show I'm liking dolls so I can conform to a female stereotype". She got to the age of 9 and overnight was bored of Barbie and suddenly preferred purple. It's just personal preference

Now what was stereotyping was my parents taking me away from my friend, because we played with dolls together. THAT was natural to me, making me feel like a freak and having to pretend to like boys stuff wasn't. What colour we wear as a child and what toys we should play with is socially constructed,

Where I think your point is valid is in attraction. I like makeup and looking in a way that is attractive to men, because I want to be attractive to men. Is that socially constructed, yes. But I didn't make the rules so I'm not going to purposely dress like a slob just to prove some feminist point. You live your life how you want to and I will live mine how I like.

[Frances]

Gender is entirely a social construct. There is nothing innate about gender. It is a socially constructed norm used to oppress women. Everything that is "feminine" is a constructed norm, the entire concept of "beauty" that we confront as women daily is a constructed norm. Gender differences are are a constructed norm. All of these are used to re-inforce role compliant behavior. For this reason they are learned behaviors not anything innate.

Read feminist thought. Read about male privilege (http://amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/), and for God's sake don't take up so much space.

Good lord Kathryn! One could also stipulate that gender constructs are used to signify sexual function to possible mates. Biology is stronger than intellectual analysis. Careful about making assertions. Isn't "not taking space" a construct too? As a trans person, you should know that gender in the sense of sexual identity (man or woman) is not a construct, otherwise, you would have not transitioned. Feminism, especially the second and third wave, seems to about exploiting false information (John Mooney's studies) and creating a victimization mirage that grants unfair entitlement.

[KellyJameson]

"Is it possible to create a genderless society?" No and it is because of sex.

Gender is about perception. How we want to be perceived.

As Reine mentioned, procreation influences stereotypical behavior. In that example perception is about attraction because of the forces of procreation.

Understand how you want to be perceived and WHY concerning your gender presentation and you not only understand your gender identity but equally important, your values.

An example is breast augmentation. I would never do this because it would cause a conflict with both my body image that supports my gender identity and my values.

My body image is very exacting in that I have always envisioned myself as small busted because I have a slender frame. Slender woman with large breasts appear unnatural to me.

My values also affect how I want to be perceived. I have a genuine concern about appearing like a bimbo (stupid) or trashy and this was learned by how I have watch people treat women like this. This concern folds back into my gender identity which is all encompassing.

It is not only being perceived as a woman that is important but equally important " what kind of woman". I cannot overemphasize how important this is to me.

I'm very sensitive to tone of voice and when I hear someone talking down to me and being condescending I become angry. I'm also uncomfortable with being treated as a sexual object unless this is blended with genuine love and respect.

Needless to say I'm a difficult person to have a relationship with.

Because of my values and how they influence how I want to be perceived I doubt that I contribute much to gender sterotypes "as how I understand them"

I don't think in terms of patriarchy/ matriarchy as men oppressing woman probably because I have never seen women as being victims and since I have never identified as male I have no male guilt or feel any responsibility for their "supposed oppression".

I also do not have the emotional need to prove I'm a woman by taking up their causes. I believe in protection for everyone by everyone.

Control/abuse mainly happens at an individual level and abuse is tolerated at a societal level, made up of individuals. I see concepts like patriarchy/ matriarchy used to influence individuals but I'm suspicious of many of the reasons this is done.

To often evil is done in the name of good.

here is a link you may find interesting Adina http://www.academia.edu/2216281/Would_it_be_possible_to_have_a_society_without_gen der_If_so_what_might_it_look_like

[Kathryn Martin]

As a trans person, you should know that gender in the sense of sexual identity (man or woman) is not a construct, otherwise, you would have not transitioned.


I transitioned because my sexual identity was not congruous with my biological reproductive organization.



I also do not have the emotional need to prove I'm a woman by taking up their causes.

Interesting that you should use this as an example. It is a classic shaming tactic to have women "prove" that they are equal to men. The implication of your comment is that I might have to prove something because I have feminist view of the world. I work in a very conservative profession that is ruled by older white men, a judicial system that is still ruled by older white men, which grew out of juristic world view in which women were property and did not have the right to vote. The institutions of oppression of women which evolved in that system are still built into the system despite everything that has happened since those times. I typical example is that women are treated more favorably in the Courts with respect to child custody because of the notion that "mothers love" is considered beyond reproach, un-attackable, and worth more than a fathers love, or for that matter a trans woman's love (in that order). Courts will routinely prefer mothers even in the face of evidence that it is not in the best interest of a child. The wrongness of such a judicial is apparent when you consider that it has grown out of the notion that women should tend to home an hearth, birth and children while men are the providers and protectors. It is an expression of control and abuse of a social level. And society (ruled by men) has made it stick because in the end women always live in fear of violence precisely because from a brute strength point of view they will always be subdued, physically, economically, socially and politically. Where do you think feminism of any wave comes from.

Kaitelyn, I wanted to address two things: firstly, if a young woman, trans or not, dresses provocatively she is either **** shamed, or seen as a free for all. Young boys believe that a 14 year old who has grown big boobs overnight are easy or a ****. This is how we still teach our boys to behave. Mens jokes about tits make sure of that. This is not negativity or victimization it's a fact of life. Secondly, that something is stereotypical such as long hair or makeup does not mean that anyone should not have long hair or makeup. I have a perm now (see avatar) and I wear makeup daily to work. Remember I have always said that one of the cornerstones of my transition was to make sure my appearance did not become a distraction to my work. Playing by the rules of a gendered world does not mean I have to be blind to it's mechanisms.

[Angela Campbell]

It seems to me that your reproductive organization is mostly not that which is congruent.

[Frances]

To get back on topic, transition allowed me to act like myself and not stand out anymore. No affectations or training required.

[DebbieL]

To get back on topic, transition allowed me to act like myself and not stand out anymore. No affectations or training required.

That pretty much describes it for me too.

[Eryn]

Carrying a purse or anything that looks like it, as a man, will certainly single you out, (as effeminate and most likely cause others to assume you are gay or a "pervert" - to quote a heckler I ran into personally -- rather than trans)

I'll nit-pick on this one. I've carried a purse for years in male mode and, except for a couple of isolated (and innocuous) comments from friends, have heard absolutely nothing about it. Quite a lot of men these days carry some form of bag to haul around our technology.

If one has the misfortune to acquire a heckler a purse might draw their attention but if there were no purse they'd find something else to go on about.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

yep ...what Frances said...in both posts...

......

Kathryn I don't take issue with the idea that gender conventions/constructs can be imposed on people, and they impact people sometimes very negatively...usually one group is favored over the other depending on the situation.

...

The distinction I was making is that biological sex is very much operative in constructing gender norms..
Social norms would not be constructed without a biological impetus...these accepted norms didn't grow from nothing..
They grew out of "how men are" and "how women are"...

Its not that a mother's love is always beyond reproach, its that mothers are biologically more driven to care for their child....it is indisputable..
and because of that society grew to expect mom's to take care of their kids for better or worse
...the complaint that a woman is more shamed than a man if they ignore their child stems as much from the biological drives of each
... remember you must accept the shame to be shamed..

There is the stereotype of baby momma's and deadbeat dads...deadbeat moms are rare...baby daddy's are rare... that's not a construct...its never ok to leave your kid to fend for themselves when they are little..
but I'd bet it all that the first mom took better care of her first baby.. the constructs grew from that ...not the other way around..

[LeaP]

...

The distinction I was making is that biological sex is very much operative in constructing gender norms..
Social norms would not be constructed without a biological impetus...these accepted norms didn't grow from nothing..
They grew out of "how men are" and "how women are"...

Exactly. The details are cultural (better than "constructed") but the drive toward differentiated expression has a strong natural component. In the main, people align along gender lines in whatever form they happen to take. What makes a TS different is that there is a change involved. The question is what s/he is aligning to and why.

[devida]

Gender is entirely a social construct. There is nothing innate about gender. It is a socially constructed norm used to oppress women. Everything that is "feminine" is a constructed norm, the entire concept of "beauty" that we confront as women daily is a constructed norm. Gender differences are are a constructed norm. All of these are used to re-inforce role compliant behavior. For this reason they are learned behaviors not anything innate.

Read feminist thought. Read about male privilege (http://amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/), and for God's sake don't take up so much space.

Gender is not only socially constructed to oppress women but also to force compliance on men. Since the ideal gender template, constantly culturally reinforced, is the extreme of gender presentation - the supremely macho aggressive male, the submissive physically weak female - most people in modern society suffer low level or greater anxiety about their gender identity and presentation. This low level anxiety is very useful to social institutions (advertising, mass media, consumer corporations etc., etc.) that make their living from exploiting gender anxiety. A slight cultural improvement appears to be the retreat of governmental institutions from the gender policing that was the norm until a very few years ago and still persists today although less and less on national and international levels. A skeptic might argue that governments have just outsourced this policing to other institutions.

My feeling is that the only way to negotiate the problem of reinforcing gender discrimination through adopting stereotyped gender behavior is by becoming aware of the difference between the way people actually are and the way in which these social institutions say that people should look and behave. Neither men nor women in the population at large look like or act like the gender stereotypes that are continuously pushed at us through the media, consumer corporations, and other powerful institutions. Human beings are all shapes and behave in all kinds of different ways. That is the reality. What is presented to us by the social institutions and what may be reflexively and coercively supported by people who do not pay attention to the diversity of human beings is just a fantasy, designed to sell us stuff, keep us from complaining, and keep us in our place.

[Kate T]

And society (ruled by men) has made it stick because in the end women always live in fear of violence precisely because from a brute strength point of view they will always be subdued, physically, economically, socially and politically. ......
Playing by the rules of a gendered world does not mean I have to be blind to it's mechanisms.

It also doesn't mean that those things are right either? Surely we should fight for what is right, not just for what works for us?

Yes , yes, I know, I'm not going to accuse any of you of "not doing enough" for trans or womens rights. Everyone gets to choose what is the best approach for them. Sometimes though I do wonder though whilst it might be the best thing for ourselves to just blend and fit in, comply with the social norms when required, is it the right thing to do?

[Tinkerbell-GG]

I had to chime in here (not very welcome at the MTF these days, lol) but I actually think we women do things differently because we are different. Our bodies move differently (hips are wider etc) and yes, some of this, like long hair, is caused by the social construct that is gender specific presentation etc, but it's also just who we are. Our brains expect us to behave differently. I was a bit of a tomboy as a kid, but as I hit puberty I can tell you, something innate in me made me suddenly care a lot more about being different from the boys. It's just there, and Reine is right that it can lessen with age, but I do think men and women are internally different and no acting is needed as it just is. I will also add that I don't think we're VERY different from men (not to the extent some on this forum would have us believe) but there are subtleties that are undeniable. It's not a feminist issue either as I consider myself a women's rights supporter, but I personally don't understand those who fight to remove female/male altogether. This is as bad as the over-the-top female cliches. Denying women and men are different is the reason women suffer so much. We don't need to be like men to be worthy of basic human rights, do we?!?

Anyway, I suspect this man-suit spoken of here is just the female mind rejecting being forced to wear the equivalent of a costume every day when it really wants to be authentic and walk and behave as women do. It's no wonder everyone here had to learn how to behave like a man. If someone put a man suit on me, I'd feel beyond uncomfortable. I literally wouldn't know what to do! I'm sorry everyone here had to suffer that. It's not fair.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Tinkerbell what a terrific nugget of wisdom..

You said.."We don't need to be like men to be worthy of basic human rights, do we?!?"
Especially in regards to the OP

Adina, its so easy to say Lets fight for what's right. What is right? I mean EXACTLY what is right??

And how to fight?? Surely not by trying to transition but to tamper down our innate sense of our gender?
I repeat the question...what does the way I cross my legs or make myself fit in appearance wise have to do propagating negative stereotypes??

Please be specific.

For me, my specific answer is that our best way to do what's right is to thrive as women (or men if ftm). To prove to the world that we are valid and authentic as humans, worthy of respect.
That means accepting the reality that men are different than women. If we try to say otherwise we will be marginalized. And that implies our status as trans is personal and irrelevant to "the cause" of influencing women's rights or influencing the media complex to change the way women are portrayed.

To me that means dealing with the reality that gender differences are innate, and that society will continue to drive how those differences are perceived..
This means that if you view the society as negative(As opposed to the differences themselves), then you must AS A WOMAN, actively support your human rights to thrive as a woman...your own self interest would be consistent with your world view...

. and in the meantime, i'll dress, talk and act however the hell I want, and I will thrive.

[LeaP]

This discussion reminds me why politics is such a pain. Theories of gender construction come out of the politics of more than a hundred years ago. One of the reasons that power and oppression is always a part of the dialog is because the politics are fundamental to the theories. Not a consequence, not a sidelight, fundamental. In that regard, I view the notion itself as a construction for the furtherance of the politics.

In any event, few of even the most ardent academics dismiss biology's influence (or employ the more extreme version, which postures biology itself as a construction). And if you take the more utilitarian position that I do, discussing oppression doesn't necessarily require resolving all gender role differences anyway. Because if you can separate sex from gender, you can also separate gender role from politics. The feminists might start by laying off some female politicians and business leaders who choose more "stereotypical" presentation (as they see it) yet function effectively and on a par with their male peers.

[ReineD]

I was a bit of a tomboy as a kid, but as I hit puberty I can tell you, something innate in me made me suddenly care a lot more about being different from the boys. It's just there, and Reine is right that it can lessen with age, but I do think men and women are internally different and no acting is needed as it just is.

In my view it's about our fundamental reason for being here, which is the propagation of our species. Men are attracted to women, and women who want to attract men will do what it takes to attract them. The methods change historically and from one culture to the next, so the things that we DO to be feminine are socially constructed or at least this is what I take is a construct: something that is not stable across different cultures and the span of time. In an African tribe two hundred years ago I might have worn a lip plate (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Mursi_woman_and_her_baby.jpg), in China I might have bound my feet to the point of deformity (http://snowfallingschultza.wikispaces.com/file/view/bound_feet.jpg/285856308/560x401/bound_feet.jpg), and in modern western culture, I might dress like Julia Roberts in "Pretty Woman" (http://www.hotflick.net/flicks/1990_Pretty_Woman/fhd990PMN_Julia_Roberts_008.jpg). These are obviously extreme examples. I'm guessing that during the pioneering days in the US, strong, strapping women were more prized than the pretty young things who fainted at the sign of a calf being born, and so the former might have been considered more sexually appealing.

Men will always be attracted to women, and women will always want to attract them. THIS is not constructed, it is biology … although the attraction game and the ways in which we modify or accentuate our femininity does lose its importance when we are seventy. :)

[Kate T]

Adina, its so easy to say Lets fight for what's right. What is right? I mean EXACTLY what is right??


Freedom, equality, tolerance, understanding, peace, love. Yes, they are rather broad generalisations but they are what I believe to be right.


And how to fight?? Surely not by trying to transition but to tamper down our innate sense of our gender?
I repeat the question...what does the way I cross my legs or make myself fit in appearance wise have to do propagating negative stereotypes??

Please be specific.


Indeed How? Is it enough that one thrives as a woman and thereby provide an example of what can be done? If society accepts us as "just another woman" who fits in then who do trans youth look to for inspiration and affirmation? Is it enough that the mainstream visibility of our community is principally via drop dead gorgeous actresses (at the same time I do not deny their contribution to the rights of the trans community)? Does fitting in help others to be treated with equality, understanding and love? Honestly Kaitlyn my questions are half directed at myself as anyone here. I ask them because frankly I genuinely don't know what the answer is, or if there even is an answer. It doesn't mean the questions shouldn't be asked, at least not in my book.

[becky77]

If society accepts us as "just another woman" who fits in then who do trans youth look to for inspiration and affirmation? Is it enough that the mainstream visibility of our community is principally via drop dead gorgeous actresses (at the same time I do not deny their contribution to the rights of the trans community)? Does fitting in help others to be treated with equality, understanding and love?

That's an interesting question. I think it depends on the individual if you want to be different or 'normal', and the word 'normal' had it's own very in depth thread.
I'm not an extrovert, hardly confident and I just want to get on with my life.
Let's engage in a little daydream on my part, so this time in let's say five years I would like to be just a typical woman, perhaps lucky enough to have found a decent guy to love, friends to enjoy my time with, a career that i'm good at and holidays to look forward to. It's simple stuff taken for granted by so many people except us. It would be just living life without anxiety and discombobulation, just being.
Or, Do I wish to be standing up for Trans rights, keeping my life in the community and segregating myself from the rest of the world so that I am an inspiration, despite the fact it's totally against how I feel inside. Also how do I achieve that? For me to stand out as Trans does that mean I have to purposefully look different? For surely blending in with women is not the goal here so we must aim not to fit, in other words we need to embrace being different?
Well here is the issue for me personally, i'm Transexual and i'm not happy about it. I don't like that label and it doesn't feel to me that's who I am. I'm a woman and unfortunately I have spent enough time living a life different and feeling like a freak. For the first time I feel the chance of a normal life free of a lifetime of wrongness, I don't want to be anything special or stand out I just want some peace and quiet from my demons and enjoy being my trueself and i'm having to fight for this right in my own corner of the world.

When I first came on here I was severely questioning my motives, I guess I was still looking for a mentor type to help me through and the ideology of a world where being TS is accepted sounds great. That's until I built up experience as living as a woman, things changed then, it reinforced my inner feelings and the more I live my life as my true self the less I want anything to do with being anything other than just a woman.

Lets say the word Transexual doesn't exist, and we use the cliche of woman in a mans body. Now through transition lets remove the mans body bit and say woman. Now without the confusing label we have a woman, why would a woman want to make herself look different to stand up for trans rights? Surely that's for the Transgender community to deal with?

[Kathryn Martin]

Freedom, equality, tolerance, understanding, peace, love. Yes, they are rather broad generalisations but they are what I believe to be right.

Indeed How? Is it enough that one thrives as a woman and thereby provide an example of what can be done? If society accepts us as "just another woman" who fits in then who do trans youth look to for inspiration and affirmation? Is it enough that the mainstream visibility of our community is principally via drop dead gorgeous actresses (at the same time I do not deny their contribution to the rights of the trans community)? Does fitting in help others to be treated with equality, understanding and love? Honestly Kaitlyn my questions are half directed at myself as anyone here. I ask them because frankly I genuinely don't know what the answer is, or if there even is an answer. It doesn't mean the questions shouldn't be asked, at least not in my book.

It is interesting that you should mention the examples after which young trans persons model themselves. The issue as I see it is not anything new in our society. Because what you describe could equally be said about young women whether trans or not. Equality, understanding and love is almost inextricably bound into gender norms. So is acceptance respect and power. I recently had a conversation with a radical feminist (many of you would describe as TERF) about this very theme. The conversation was focused on the question of how to dismantle these norms so that an equitable outcome would result. Her take on this was:


But it's also (presumably?) difficult to find, create and maintain those spaces except on a small scale and few of us have the freedom to live like that the whole time.

Fitting into a political and social expectation to gain equality, understanding and love is often a necessity but it is also the very instrument by which we are subjugated. Ask any trans person about their pre-transition experience and this is the theme that emerges and ask any post-transition trans person and they will tell you that the degree of acceptance and equality that they experience is the degree to which they fit in.

I know that my views on this are quite unpopular. I would rather prefer to see the world I live in with eyes wide open.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Thanks for you answer Adina.. I admit to a certain analytical and pragmatic view that generally finds unanswerable questions less than helpful..

If you don't have a specific answer , compared to mine, i'd say that I have a much more meaningful and constructive view. I have actually done something about the problem. I've done what I think is right.
Lots and lots of people knew the old me...Hundreds and hundreds... they've all seen my transition which I did gradually, carefully and in full open sight (including my neighborhood)... every single one of those people have a better more constructive view of what a transsexual is..neighbors that 4 years wondered who the freaky looking Lady? man? coming in and out of "its" house now smile and wave and talk to me as I walk my dog... my next door neighbor used to stare at me in hatred and now he just smiles and even lets his kids run over to my house..this guy is a stereotypical man and I still can't believe its now "ok"...the guy across the street that cleans his motorcycles every weekend comes to my house now in the winter and offers to plow the snow off my driveway... this is real life..

I've given presentations to a couple dozen groups of students (nursing, physicians assistants, sociology). Almost every time I get people running up to me telling me how much they learned, how they didn't know about the things I shared, and how they won't think of us the same way. And trust me , I didn't bring up the internecine politics of radical feminism and how it interacts with ts dogma...I told my story plainly and openly with my heart right there in front of them..

The idea that you can't even begin to answer the question I asked (and instead simply defended that you asked the question) tells me that you are not really interested in real life answers...I gave you one, and your response was more unanswerable questions...
I would urge you to "do something" stop wasting your own obvious smarts and your own personal power...if I said I talked a million people into loving transsexuals it seems like you would say "is that enough?" who cares if its enough... you gotta start somewhere..i'd add one more thing...

we can have a conversation and go home and get stoned like a bunch of liberal arts professors (i lived this...I went to Swarthmore college..the epicenter--- of course I was one of a handful of math majors out of 300 kids..)

if that's all this is, count me out...
But as Kathryn points out (despite our disagreement on some of the details), only your answers really matter..

I really like her penultimate paragraph. Her very practical view reflects a hard won knowledge that I share with her even if we differ on how we get there.

[LeaP]

Adina, you've only hinted at one specific - trans community visibility. I'm not a lawyer, but there's an expression I like from the legal world: "bad cases make bad law." There are tons of reasons for this, but it fundamentally boils down to the difficulty of crafting broadly applicable and acceptable solutions from argumentive, exception-ridden, controversial, and exceptional circumstances.

Very few transsexuals indeed aspire to a permanent status of being trans. The nature of transsexuality, the inner drive to actualize your identity, runs counter to that. Becky captured this beautifully, as follows. I also like her point on this perhaps being a topic of more concern to non-TS, transgender (or gender-variant) people.


Lets say the word Transexual doesn't exist, and we use the cliche of woman in a mans body. Now through transition lets remove the mans body bit and say woman. Now without the confusing label we have a woman, why would a woman want to make herself look different to stand up for trans rights? Surely that's for the Transgender community to deal with?

The "bad cases" aphorism relates to the problem of trans women representing women's rights. Trans women are not lesser women. They have the right to such participation. No arguments there. The fact, however, despite limited acceptance in some quarters, is that most don't want to hear it. Not the radical feminists certainly, but also not the general public.

There is always an audience for the reformed and converted ex-whatever preaching to the masses. Ex-addicts, ex-criminals, ex-atheists, ex-communists, etc. And ex-males and ex-females. Great if you like lurid, exhibitionist attention.

You argue social justice. Right and wrong. But incredible progress has been made in the treatment of transsexuals as well as how they are regarded in the health system in the last couple of decades or so. How is that? It wasn't the kind of advocacy you appear to be implying, certainly not primarily. It's been a combination of medical research and grass roots support mechanisms arising out of the internet. The former chipped away at such things as the DSM, associations' medical necessity and ethics statements, and lately, insurance and civil rights laws inclusion. This was aided by organizations like WPATH out of the practical experiences of practitioners much more than traditional advocacy organizations like HRC - which have a long reputation for throwing us under the bus.

There is more potential (in the US, anyway) for rights advancements in the individual cases and decisions proceeding under Title VII of the civil rights act than all the traditional advocacy approaches combined. Like much else in the TS world, it seems, success comes from quiet, persistent individuals standing on identity alone. Or, as many here might put it, women pressing their rights AS women. Not trans women and not transgender, such things being more a medical and historical point of view with limited applicability.

If you want to argue peace, love, acceptance, etc., you really do need to get to specifics. I think these are being addressed for transsexuals in ways that are appropriate to transsexuals' needs and preferences already along the lines I've outlined. I'd be happy to hear alternative views, but platitudes alone aren't going to get a hearing from me.

[Kathryn Martin]

There is more potential .......... for rights advancements in the individual cases

There is a lot of wisdom in this sentence. I for one believe that real rights advancement does not necessarily lie in organizations that want to elevate trans rights to the 2000 and teens version of the last civil rights struggle, but rather in the the family courts, in the criminal courts and in the court of living simply a life, normal and as visible as a normal life makes us. I am not stealth, everyone knows where I came from.

Rights advancement for those that are transsexual or gender variant is not on the barricades of "special" rights but on the achieving "normality" when our rights are considered beside the rights that everyone else has. It s about the removal of this automatic disqualification to be custodial or accessing parent, it is about the honesty and credibility when we are accused of having been charged with a criminal offense and it is the normality of our lives. It is in the end about the recognition of the dignity of the person in the rights sphere.

That is where the real advancement of rights, are not with actresses or organizations that tell everyone what to say so as to not hurt our feelings.

[DebbieL]

The thing I remember when I was growing up is how hard the men and other boys tried to force everybody to NOT be girls.

If you were a "Sissy" you got beat up, targeted for violence and abuse.

If you laughed the wrong way, you were a girl - a target.
If you walked the wrong way, you were girly - a target
If you sat the wrong way, you were girly - a target
If you cried, you were girly - a target.

To me the world of boys and men was violent and dangerous. A game of soccer could end up with the "sissy" being used as the ball, everybody getting in a few good kicks".

The football coach had even more colorful language to describe boys who were too feminine.

I grew up at a time when hundreds of thousands of young men were being drafted into military service every year.
There was a program dedicated to preparing boys and young men for military service (President's Council on Physical Fitness).

For Vietnam, 18 year old boys had to be trained to kill women, children, even babies, on command, without hesitation. Mothers often slipped explosives between themselves and their babies. When they were shot, the booby trap would be triggered by someone wanting to help the crying baby, and the explosion would kill anyone within 50 feet. Children often came up to get candy, then tossed grenades into the jeeps and tanks. Some of the deadliest snipers were women.

Boys of that period were encouraged to violently attack guys who were too effeminate. Learning to hide that femininity could be a matter of survival.

Things have improved so much in those 50 years. There's still a ways to go, but progress has been made.

[Rogina B]

There is a lot of wisdom in this sentence. It is in the end about the recognition of the dignity of the person in the rights sphere.

That is where the real advancement of rights are not with actresses, or organizations that tell everyone what to say so as to not hurt our feelings.

I really believe that putting a "face to a label" is often the way progress is made. I did a political event for Equality Florida in August. My part was to be up close and personal as they[the politicians in power and wannabees] were asked" If a piece of transgender legislation[equal rights] were to be put to a vote..How would you vote on it?" It gives them[or the mainstream] a different viewpoint when they see the person that goes with the label.

[sarahcsc]

Hey all,

3 pages of comments later and I can't help but notice that we have veered off the original topic but it was nonetheless an enlightening trip. I only wished I had been part of the discussion a bit sooner but better late than never.

Like many have said here, I believe gender is a social construct that was driven and shaped by evolution and biology. Charles Darwin had an eloquent way of explaining an organisms behaviour especially when it comes to gender and sex.

Charles Darwin said in his second book The Descent of Man and Selection in Relation to Sex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Descent_of_Man,_and_Selection_in_Relation_to_S ex):

"The sexual struggle is of two kinds; in the one it is between individuals of the same sex, generally the males, in order to drive away or kill their rivals, the females remaining passive; whilst in the other, the struggle is likewise between the individuals of the same sex, in order to excite or charm those of the opposite sex, generally the females, which no longer remain passive, but select the more agreeable partners."

Gorillas are prime example of the former, while peacocks are prime example of the latter.

It seems to me that men are like gorillas, and women are like peacocks, but we must remember that the competition is always with the same and never with the opposite sex. Kelly Jameson mentioned about misogynistic men projecting their fears and weaknesses unto women:


Misogyny is a form of projection where the male rejects those unwanted "weak" parts of himself onto the female which he than "hates" (as hating her) but they are actually the parts of himself he hates from being immersed in the collective hate of women by men.


But I dare to say that women so the same with men with the feminist movement.

Both parties are trying to suppress and condemn the opposite sex when actually the competition has and always will be within the same sex!

If I went back to the original question:


What I am curious about is how many of you have made specific efforts to adopt stereotypical female associated gender behaviours in order to be perceived as more "authentically" female by the general public?

Yes, I have made conscious efforts to adopt stereotypical associated gender behaviours in order to be perceived as female but I guess we all got caught up by the question of "what is female"?

If we think that behaviour defines sex, then perhaps the peacocks can shed light on why females behave the way they do. In which case, females compete amongst other females by behaving in a way that increases their chances of charming the opposite sex so they can select more agreeable partners. This could possibly explain some feminine expressions and mannerisms. Men on the other hand will compete amongst other men by acquiring higher social standing (instead of beating or killing each other) so they can increase their chances of being selected by the most attractive female.

But I don't think behaviour defines sex. And I still have very little idea what "female" means but why should that stop me from behaving the way I want?

Just because I assumed a more stereotypical associated gender behaviour doesn't mean I have compromised on my own identity at all and it could even be argued as a process of redefining myself. It just so happened that I am now much more conscious of my ugly teeth when laughing so now I cover my mouth (whenever I can) when I laugh. I used to take up a lot of space but now I find that rude. You can argue that these are all just social constructed behaviours but I'll do it (without exaggerating it) if I felt it would make me feel more feminine.

The truth is, we all mirror ourselves through the eyes of others to huge extent. Nothing is more comforting to me than to hear somebody say that I look feminine than to hear myself saying in front of a mirror. This process of mirroring occurs throughout life and it applies to every aspect of our personality. You would start feeling tired if everybody at work commented that you looked tired. Some celebrities think they can behave recklessly and are above the law because millions of fans worshiped them. And it is this mirroring process which sustains our ego and identity. (ref: self psychology by Heinz Kohut)

Trouble starts when there is an incongruency between the way we perceive ourselves and the way others perceive us wherein lies the main dilemma of TS.


Pursuant to this question I also ask do you find this necessity to adopt what are essentially socially constructed stereotypes to be somewhat grating and do you not worry that you end up reinforcing a stereotype that has been used to discriminate against you your whole life?

There is no doubt I am enforcing some stereotypical behaviour, but why is this wrong? We can't even be sure if these stereotypical behaviours are "pathological" especially when it is rooted firmly in biological impetus to survive and procreate. Humans need a certain set of rules to follow in order to survive so they can know instinctively that anything foul smelling do not belong in the mouth or anybody that behaves in a stereotypical way is not a suitable mate. Yes, there is merit in not judging a book by its cover but we all do it anyways. It is an incredibly shallow way to know a person based on solely on their appearances (including stereotypical behaviours) but we all have to start shallow before going deeper.

In conclusion:

I believe both men and women adopt certain stereotypical behaviours or mannerisms that is a social construct which is grounded in biological and evolutionary principles. These two interact and affect each other to produce a set of recognizable human expressions. We acknowledge and accept some of these behaviours instinctively but challenge the rest. It has to do with the two separate parts of our brains "arguing" with each other and that is our more primitive reptilian brain which is covered by a more highly evolved mamalian brain. The primitive reptilian brain recognizes physical beauty while the mamalian brain recognizes social rules and hierarchy.

I guess the trick is to finding a balanced way to live taking into account our biological needs and needs to conform to society.

Any thoughts?

Love,
Sarah

[Brianna_H]

SarahCSC, this is a nitpick, but peacocks are males and peahens are females. It's the males that have the bright colorful plumage. There's even some controversy over whether or not the plumage is how the females actually choose a mate. There may be other, more subtle, reasons.

My real point is that in nature, these roles shift from species to species. Human culture and gender are way more varied and mutable than the instinct-driven behavior of animals. Sure we have instincts, but the way those get translated into our cultural norms is hugely variable. even in the animal world, homosexual behavior occurs. I'm sure it has some evolutionary origin, but what purpose does it serve in the sexual binary? Where does it fit? I think even the animal world is more intricate and blurry than Darwin realized.

On the competition issue, humanity and transgender people in particular are blurring this distinction, too, from bathrooms to the sporting field. Even if we wanted to be more "natural", which animal should we emulate? Better to find our own way with reason and compassion, as we are a different sort of animal.

When it comes down to it, gender may be a necessary thing, but it's expression is purely cultural. We TG/TS folks emulate the gender behavior of our "true sex" because we want to be seen and treated as who we feel we really are. That involves unlearning trained behavioral markers of our old gender and adopting the traits of our true gender. Sometimes that is easy, as we have picked up those traits already by being part of the culture. But sometimes it is difficult for psychological and physical reasons (fear of going out in public, our voice or body shape, etc.).

To answer the OP, yes, of course I have made efforts to fit the "stereotype" or gender norms of my culture. From the clothes I wear to the shoes on my feet. And it does concern me that I may reinforce stereotypes that make other uncomfortable. I'm obsessed with getting a bra and having womanly breasts, but I am also aware that women have fought for the right not to be bound by the oppressive side of our culture.

The best I can do is to express myself in the most genuine way I can, while supporting the rights of others to do the same. Just because I want to be a homemaker (wish I could be a mom) and wear lace and be submissive in the bedroom, does not mean that I think all women should be satisfied with those things. I can support them with my political voice and my heart.