Androgyny and Cross Dressing

[Sonya]

I am curious about others opinions on the relationship between androgyny and cross dressing. Lately there have been few relevant threads which got me questioning where I stand and question my own situation. For a long time now I felt like I need to dress completely and try to pass (blend) as a woman when I want to go out in public. I think sometimes I can blend in if I don’t open my mouth :D. But there is also another side of me who constantly fantasise about going out in public with combinations of typical masculine and feminine apparel. For example recently I had some online shopping delivered :heehee: to my house and I was super excited to try my new skirt on so I just put it on without any makeup (3 days Facial growth) , wig or breast forms (actually I don’t own any forms, I just use fillets and push up bras). I just put a simple white singlet and some heels. I was quite happy with the my reflection on the mirror and I just wished that I could be out and about as I was. These feelings are not new to me and I really struggle with it at times.

I know that there are members here, who think similar to me, I am not sure if we are the majority of minority?? One of my theory is that maybe for some; cross dressing escalates so much (wigs, makeup, breast forms, hip pads ect..) as our need to go out and interact with the world increases and safest way to do that is to blend in.

Do you think as (if) androgynous expression and clothing gets popular would that be the end of cross dressing??

Sonya

[Nadine Spirit]

I do both, cross drss fully, and appear more andorgynous, or more accurately do gender non conforming things, and I will always do both. Oh, I should say, I do both in public and will continue to do both. I think there is a bit more inside of me than enjoying just the clothes. All of what I do, including cross dressing entirely helps me to be able express who I am.

[Alana Lucerne]

I share these feelings, although in my case passing isn't an option. I wear my hair very long - between bra strap and waist length. Sometime it is in a fairly neutral style like a braid, but sometimes i wear it up, or curled. I will sometimes wear a bra and forms under a blouse, along with men's jeans. Oddly enough, i very seldom get noticed wearing breasts, even though they are D cups. I have seen comments on here before about wearing long or painted nails. I have done both, and the significant point about all of these is that you just have to own it, act normally, and people seem to accept it. they may think it is a bit off centre, but then, who isn't a bit off centre in some way or other?

Alana

[Kate Simmons]

I think being relaxed no matter how we are dressed is the key along with self assurance. Who we are will shine through the clothing regardless of what we are wearing. :)

[Marcelle]

Hi Sonya,

Regarding your question as to whether cross dressing will end if androgynous expression gets popular? Well, I suppose for those on the spectrum where it is just about clothes then they may go their own separate way and just enjoy wearing what they wish to wear. However for others who most likely suffer from mild GD (a little further down the TG path) it is unlikely their female identity will cease and they will still try to blend as closely as possible to women of the day. In my own case, I do not mix "boy/girl". When I am boy it is what I normally wear as a boy and when I am girl I dress all girl.

Hugs

Isha

[Teresa]

Sonya,
I don't think androgynous dressing will end CDing !
I think many of us have that feeling of sometimes going OTT and wear something that blows your socks off !!
I have a thread running in shopping at the moment about wearing a wig or not, so if you choose the guy in a dress look no one will stop you !
I'm sitting here typing this in a tartan skirt and high necked sweater just lipstick and heels, if I didn't have to pick my wife up I'd probably spend the rest of the day like this ! I think she might object to me driving in 4" heels !

[Erica Marie]

As far as the line between being androgynous and crossdressing. Its kind of confusing because to be androgynous you must wear clothing of the opposite sex but it is more of the overall look. Someone would actually have to look twice and decide if you are a boy or girl, not just a boy in girls cloths or a girl in boys cloths. A three day shadow and a skirt is not being androgynous, its more about what you like to wear. Its about the cloths, the hairstyle, the make up or lack there of. Oddly enough most androgynous people we see are females, especially models taking on more of a masculine role.

[Sonya]

Thanks for the responses. I know that androgynous clothing (expression) if it ever becomes main stream will not cure people with GD but logic states that the term Cross Dressing would be obsolete. The purpose of my thread is not to have a rant about what is socially acceptable for man and women to wear and play the victim. I know that in the early days, my cross dressing was all about clothes and now it consists a lot more then clothes. I am not even sure where I belong in the spectrum, maybe I do suffer mild GD. One thing I know is that I am not really comfortable using a made up name and acting differently when in boy or girl mode.

At this stage I have to admit that I do enjoy when I do complete transformation with wig and makeup and I will probably still do it from time to time even if I lived in a totally accepted androgynous expression society.

[Beverley Sims]

Androgyny is only a half way house towards the real thing. :)

[devida]

I do consider myself transgender but that does not, to me, mean that I am in the process of transitioning from male to female. It's just an acceptance of the discomfort I always felt identifying as masculine. According to my SO one of the characteristics that attracted her to me was my androgyny. I've dressed somewhat androgynously most of my life. I see photos of me 30 years ago and I'm wearing very short shorts and girl's t shirts. But I went through decades of not caring how I dressed because I identified as male. I have to say that relaxing my definition of myself as a man has done wonders to my sense of style. I dress very much better and very much more femme though I am certainly not interested in passing as female. I would like to be known as third gender and I want to present myself that day, with clothes, mannerisms and behavior that cannot be typed as male or female but as a combination. I'm not interested in blending in.

I very much doubt that androgyny will result in the death of cross dressing. Despite protestations from some cds that it's all about the clothes, it isn't. It is very much about freeing oneself from a restrictive gender identification that is felt as suffocating and absolutely requires release. I feel that way too but I also think that I would feel that way if I had been born female. I am just not comfortable in the binaries. Most cds are. They just like to switch from one binary to another. I just want to stay in the middle.

I am sure I am in the minority on this forum. Most of the time that is OK. It does mean that I can't identify with many of the threads and find them kind of puzzling but I have enough commonality with cross dressers that I do keep returning. I am an outlier but I'm still in the tribe.

[I Am Paula]

Of course I advocate dressing and presenting any way you feel comfortable, and expresses that which you feel. However, I found in a brief andro phase, that it certainly made me feel more conspicuous. People tend not to see, or to ignore, those presenting as either end of the spectrum, but mix it up a bit, and you may as well wear a tee shirt that says queer. (the new queer, not the old queer slur.)
As I was presenting andro, it also reinforced that I was in fact much closer to the female end of the spectrum. Instead of being comfortably in the middle, I realized I had just become a girl without makeup.

[Annaliese]

For work I dress in girl jeans, my new cowgirl boots, girl sweaters, or my male shirt except for the button on the wrong side look fem, and make up. This week end I will be at a conference and plan to dress and go out. That all most change when I could not find anyone one there to go out with. This week end I made up my mind to go to the bar in the hotel about 9:30 or 10 and get a drink while dress, I hope picture to fallow. So I am in the camp of both.

[Secret Drawer]

I am firmly planted in the andro/ gender non specific camp for the most part. It is not that I find it unpleasant to go "all the way," just not necessary to my well being.
Specifically to Isha's post, I wonder if I don't have exactly the opposite view: I believe that those who truly suffer from mild GD are more likely to dress and go "as they are," and not try to be the perfect blend... It seems that we are stuck more in a "must accept ourselves as we are" mode, and don't have the psychological patients to need everything perfect in order to blend better. Another way of looking at it is that psychologically, I really do think that I look OK in a skirt, I don't think of myself as weird for it or somehow lacking... It isn't something particularly easy to explain, it just is.

[suchacutie]

Devida, one of the charming parts of this forum is that we all look like we are in the minority...neat, actually! I'm one of those who live deeply in the binary gender. Just this morning my wife suggested something new that Tina should experience, so the binary is not just me.

Having said that, some of what we do every day leads to androgeny. We can't help it. Eyebrows, skincare, nailcare, and sense of style come to mind immediately. How many of us wear woman's jeans, and mostly because we now take better care of ourselves than our cis-gendered counterparts so standard male jeans just don't fit well....and we care how we look!

Bottom line: I see androgeny as a part of what we do as a matter of course. It's just that some of us really identify with that slice of what we are. I really hope that the androgenous look takes off as it could make full transformation just a small step away in the public eye; androgeny leading to more crossdressing, not less.

[Sonya]

In my own case, I do not mix "boy/girl". When I am boy it is what I normally wear as a boy and when I am girl I dress all girl.

I think it will be very hard to not mix "boy/girl" for most of us as we strive to achieve a convincing female expression. Sure it would be easy to not mix boy and girl clothes but what about other androgynous expressions such as hairless arms, hands, legs, chest and facial hair when in boy mode. What happens if you decide to shape your eye brows and permanently remove your facial hair?


As far as the line between being androgynous and crossdressing. Its kind of confusing because to be androgynous you must wear clothing of the opposite sex but it is more of the overall look. Someone would actually have to look twice and decide if you are a boy or girl, not just a boy in girls cloths or a girl in boys cloths. A three day shadow and a skirt is not being androgynous, its more about what you like to wear. Its about the cloths, the hairstyle, the make up or lack there of. Oddly enough most androgynous people we see are females, especially models taking on more of a masculine role.

In my ideal androgynous world there won’t be different clothes for different sexes :D I really liked Eddie Izzards answer to the question of why he wears women’s clothing, his answer was "They are not women’s clothing, they are mine, I paid for them" (or along those likes). I did a Google search :heehee: and agree that androgynous clothing is a lot more common with females fashion, nearly all of the images are female models wearing masculine inspired clothes.

[Erica Marie]

Thank you Sonya. I wasnt trying to pin against you. I think alot of us feel trapped in between. Like said before, third gender. Titles, descriptions, labels, its all too much. Lets just be "us"

[heatherdress]

I frequently dress "Heather Lite". It's easy to wear women's jeans, sweaters, maybe some subtle makeup at night. I have a few pair of heels that work well with boot-cut jeans. It's fun.

[charlenesomeone]

Agree with it must be something to notice. I wear girl shorts with boy shirt. No one notices.
If I put forms on, jewelry, or makeup, some notice. Is that andro?
Is Andro, guy in a dress? Is it guy with girl clothes that fit and don't stand out? Is it a guy dressed in guy with a wig?
Inquiring girls want to know.
Char

[devida]

Agree with it must be something to notice. I wear girl shorts with boy shirt. No one notices.
If I put forms on, jewelry, or makeup, some notice. Is that andro?
Is Andro, guy in a dress? Is it guy with girl clothes that fit and don't stand out? Is it a guy dressed in guy with a wig?
Inquiring girls want to know.
Char

I would say it is androgynous if the person is deliberately trying to mix genders in clothing or is deliberately presenting as non binary, third gender, a gender or whatever you want to call someone who chooses a gender that is neither male nor female. Like all other gender identities androgyny is self defined. So I would say that the clothes are not as important as the identity. I do not see why a dmab person with a beard and a dress cannot be androgynous. It all depends, I suppose, on whether you consider androgyny to be a fashion statement or a gender identity. The issue is confusing because androgyny is so often just a fashion statement.

Androgyny is a little different from other gender identities to the extent that there my be more women presenting androgynous who actually are satisfied with their core gender identity as female. This is more a result of the history of fashion than anything else and the development of women's rights. I would imagine that most men who present as androgynous are not comfortable with being defined as masculine. In the coffee house the other day, for example, more people looked at me curiously than at the woman with short hair, a man's shirt and baggy jeans. I was wearing short shorts over thigh length shape wear, a woman's shirt with high cut sleeves, and over the knee socks. She was actually crossing genders in her clothing a bit more dramatically than I was but women wearing men's clothes nowadays is entirely unexceptional. If the fashion industry gets its way and mainstreams androgynous clothes for both men and women I doubt that my presentation would be found to be any more remarkable than hers. I'm in a small seaside town. Already in cities the way I dress is unexceptional.

Even so, and even though I certainly want to be fashionable, darling, I wear androgynous clothes because androgyny is my home address.

[JoannaCD]

I frequently dress "Heather Lite". It's easy to wear women's jeans, sweaters, maybe some subtle makeup at night. I have a few pair of heels that work well with boot-cut jeans. It's fun.

I agree. It is fun, and I follow your formula adding clip on hoops, brushing my hair a bit femme, mascara and a lipstick that doesn't stand out. I use Estee Lauder Spiced Cider but I see that Ulta has the same shade a lot cheaper. I'm 6-3 and in 2" heeled clogs no one is going to think i'm trying to pass as a woman. My friend and i visited the Atlanta Botanical Garden with me dressed that way and then out to a restaurant we wanted to try. I had to stop my car and ask two guys if they could give us directions and one said, "Sure ma'am" and proceeded to do so. My friend got a chuckle out of that and said I must be truly in Joanna mode to ask for directions. And I got a thrill from being called ma'am. Maybe the makeup wasn't as subtle as I thought and sitting in a car took away the height issue. Anyway, yes, fun!!!!

[dragdoll]

Yes, this is a thread I can really get behind. I've been an androgyne and gender-bender most of my life. Eventually it intensified over the years then I went into full drag crossdressing, then kind of shifted back to androgynous, dressing in more unisex clothes sometimes leaning more to the fem side when I'm by myself, and leaning more to the masculine side when I'm around people I know. Lately I've been going out wearing platform flip flops with super skinny jeans and a fitted unisex shirt, and I have a girlish 'pixie' style haircut. I catch people checking me out from time to time, but I've been getting more comfortable just being gender fluid. But I phase in and out of it still.

I came up with my own personal 'mode chart' that I use to determine what level of masculine to feminine I might be in at any time:

Mode 0 = Totally raw male mode, no femininity whatsoever
Mode 1 = Mildly androgynous, leaning more towards masculine but some fem mixed in
Mode 2 = Unisex/androgynous, leaning more towards feminine
Mode 3 = Fully Crossdressed 100%, almost passable as a female
Mode 4 = Transexual, taking hormones, full mtf transition, living as a female 24/7*




*I have never done Mode 4, nor do I plan on it, but I did fantasize about it briefly.

[SusanaO]

I also don't think more androgynous will end crossdressing. I've come to terms with myself and being open about being an androgynous guy. However, to me there is a clear distinction between being androgynous and either mostly (or entirely) masculine or feminine. And because of that, I savor even more every chance I get to be a woman.

[atlflygirl]

I've gone out a few times recently dressed in a woman's shirt, make-up, jewelry, men's pants, tights and women's flats. My hair was done up like I usually do it as guy's hair. To me, that is an androgynous look, although some would simply think I was a guy in makeup with no hips, butt or tits to complete the picture. Current men's styles are also coming into this picture; low-cut buzzed hair, longer beards, tats, wingtips and the like make the trendy male styles very butch in some respects,although the rolled-up jeans and chukkas are slightly androgynous. My feeling is that men wearing makeup (not tights at this point) is not far away; I'm getting excited already.

[Marsha My Dear]

My wife and I have agreed that my CD life will remain a private matter. But we do like pushing the male envelope. I underdress, wear large ear studs with jewells, and sport perfume that could be mistaken for guy stuff (or maybe not), and some subtle makeup on occasion. I would wager most everybody here would be able to spot me in public as being really discreet, but to anyone else I'm my usual out of the mainstream self. It's like an inside joke, and we're the only ones who know the punch line!

[Brenn]

To answer your question - NO! - androgynous dressing will not end crossdressing; there will always be those who want more than the androgynous look.

I understand how you feel though. I spent several years doing the full "dressing to pass" thing. It never quite felt right though. On one occasion I decided to go shopping in basically male-mode (but was wearing panties and pantyhose). I went to a mall and found a dress shop that was really accommodating and offered to let me try some things on. After that I did this more and more and gradually incorporated more women's clothing until I had what could be considered an androgynous (in not femme-androgynous) look. At that point I realized this was how I was most comfortable. Have not fully "dressed to pass" in over a decade. I occasionally fantasize about it, but am perfectly happy as I am: A slightly femme, androgynous male.

[prene]

Nice question.
For me I dress male or female.
I use to dress very sexy and curvy as a female but now I just want to blend in and not cause anyone to even notice.
although,
When I dress as a guy I always have something feminine on underneath.

[Teresa Monsivais]

I can relate more with Prene when I dress as a male I tend to wear something feminine underneath and continue to to shave my legs, arms etc. occasionally I may head to the gym with women jogging pants that are fitted in the rear and thighs and wide under the knees (they have to somewhat resemble men's pants ). But I don't use them to workout though just to get into the gym during the winter months. When I dress feminine I tend to put everything effort to look feminine with whatever God gave me to work with.

[Richelle]

For me androgynous or as Nadine said non-confirming is what I prefer. Almost every day I wear woman's clothes mixed with clothes from the men's department. However, I always wear earrings and most often nail polish. However, I do enjoy dressing all the way with forms and makeup.

Richelle

[jjjjohanne]

I never wanted to be a girl. I just wanted to wear their clothes. When I realized I could wear their clothes and not present female, it freed me!

I started wearing hose and shorts in public. No one noticed. I eventually ventured out in women's shorts and androgynous shoes. No one noticed. I eventually tried darker hose a couple times. People noticed, but still treated me with respect. Then I tried going out in a skirt, black hose, blouse, flats. Everyone noticed, but they took their look and then tried not to stare. After that, I started doing more while dressed. I always present my normal male head, no breasts, wigs, or makeup. I try to go out during school hours and I try to avoid places where tourists might be with cameras. (Phones have changed that dynamic!) I try to do normal things. People aren't really all that shocked to see a guy in a dress. Everyone treats me with respect for the most part. Some snicker and/or tell their friends if they see me from a distance. They don't realize I can see them, I suppose. I have posted most of my experiences going out like this. Take a look at my previous posts if you are interested. Sometimes other partial dressers from this forum speak up in the replies about their similar attitudes.

Now, if they started selling men's skirts and made some shoes or garments unisex, would I stop buying women's clothes for these outings??? I don't know... Would I be satisfied if it wasn't from the women's section? Currently, I do not wear men's spandex bikini briefs, I wear panties. I do not wear men's pantyhose, I wear women's. The anecdotal data suggests that I would keep buying women's wear. But I consider this quite insufficient to convince me.

Joey

[Brenn]

I never wanted to be a girl. I just wanted to wear their clothes. When I realized I could wear their clothes and not present female, it freed me!

I started wearing hose and shorts in public. No one noticed. I eventually ventured out in women's shorts and androgynous shoes. No one noticed. I eventually tried darker hose a couple times. People noticed, but still treated me with respect.

Joey

This is about as far as I have gotten. Still want to try a skirt sometime soon.

Brenn

[AlanaG]

I never wanted to be a girl. I just wanted to wear their clothes. When I realized I could wear their clothes and not present female, it freed me!

I started wearing hose and shorts in public. No one noticed. I eventually ventured out in women's shorts and androgynous shoes. No one noticed. I eventually tried darker hose a couple times. People noticed, but still treated me with respect. Then I tried going out in a skirt, black hose, blouse, flats. Everyone noticed, but they took their look and then tried not to stare. After that, I started doing more while dressed. I always present my normal male head, no breasts, wigs, or makeup. I try to go out during school hours and I try to avoid places where tourists might be with cameras. (Phones have changed that dynamic!) I try to do normal things. People aren't really all that shocked to see a guy in a dress. Everyone treats me with respect for the most part. Some snicker and/or tell their friends if they see me from a distance. They don't realize I can see them, I suppose. I have posted most of my experiences going out like this. Take a look at my previous posts if you are interested. Sometimes other partial dressers from this forum speak up in the replies about their similar attitudes.

Now, if they started selling men's skirts and made some shoes or garments unisex, would I stop buying women's clothes for these outings??? I don't know... Would I be satisfied if it wasn't from the women's section? Currently, I do not wear men's spandex bikini briefs, I wear panties. I do not wear men's pantyhose, I wear women's. The anecdotal data suggests that I would keep buying women's wear. But I consider this quite insufficient to convince me.

Joey

Oh how I can relate. I've been under dressing for years as well as wearing woman's heeled ankle boots and women dressy trousers. Just recently tried the skirt thing. So far I've been out in public 3 times. I've only encountered 1 comment directly at me. A guy asked me if it was comfortable. The only negative is that the wife doesn't want me in a skirt out in public while with her.

[Taylor186]

As far as the line between being androgynous and crossdressing. Its kind of confusing because to be androgynous you must wear clothing of the opposite sex but it is more of the overall look. Someone would actually have to look twice and decide if you are a boy or girl, not just a boy in girls cloths or a girl in boys cloths. A three day shadow and a skirt is not being androgynous, its more about what you like to wear.

Yes to this.

It is really more about how you look naked. If you have androgynous features then you can push your clothed look towards androgyny. If you don't, and I don't, then you just look like a guy in a dress. (Just check out "people of walmart" to see plenty of examples of that not done well.)

Gender nonconforming, yes, but androgynous, no. Really, androgyny and crossdressing aren't measured on the same scale.

[CONSUELO]

As a teenager I was thin and more or less hairless on my body. I didn't need to shave often and it took very little effort to look more or less feminine. In the sense that I did not look "strongly" male one could say I was borderline androgynous. Sadly, a more masculine look has developed as one has aged and "thickened".
I look back wistfully on those years and wish that I had taken more advantage of my "androdgyny". These days I work hard to make sure that I look as feminine as possible.

[SamanthaSometimes]

For me, I enjoy both andro and full CD. Everyday and all the time I'm rather andro with much longer than guy and many girls nails and long hair (down to the bar strap). I enjoy this because there is always a little of Samantha looking back at me when I look into the mirror. I sometimes augument the full time look with mascara and colored glossy lipstick. This feels very comfortable to me and more 'natural' than fully CD. However I very much enjoy full CD too but can do that only when I have a significant amount of time to make it worth the effort to get all dolled up.

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Sonya, When I dress I want to look the best that I can.