Question for Canadian Members or Those Who May Know

[Marcelle]

Hi all,

Well I am a bit steamed to say the least . . . just when I wish to rest on my laurels about how progressive Canada is, I get blindsided by narrow minded Conservative tripe designed to discriminate against those who do not conform to a neat binary.

My wife and I just got back from a trip to the US and as I have an upcoming trip to the Victoria BC I thought this would be a great opportunity to experience flying as Isha. So, I approached the CATSA agents to ask what things I need to do in order to ensure a smooth check in / screening while "en femme". Imagine my surprise when the agent looked at me, smirked and said "Unless you have your equipment removed or have a doctor's letter saying it will be done within the year, it is illegal to fly as the opposite gender". Needless to say, the douchebag agent and myself had words along with his supervisor about his rudeness and I have lodged an official complaint about the agent and now his DB supervisor who laughed at my "silly question".

So my understanding is that an obscure Transport Canada change (no vote required) in 2012 made it illegal for Trans persons to fly while presenting as the opposite gender on their documentation unless they could produce a doctor's letter indicating they are TS and will undergo SRS within a year.

So my question to any Canadian TG folks who have flown as the opposite gender since 2012 . . . Is this something you have experienced?

Sorry, very upset and very ashamed to be Canadian at this moment :Angry3:

Hugs

Isha

[Kris Avery]

Isha, that is totally insane. Illegal? That's not cool.
I haven't been to Canada (yet) but I guess I won't fly.....:devil:

[sandra-leigh]

In the FB discussions I have seen, this has not been a problem in practice for anyone who has gone through it.

The key to keep it within legality is to use your legal sex marker on the reservation / ticket.

If, like me, you can be "read" at a glance, then oddly that can be easier than if someone really has to look hard to see your birth sex. If "no-one is fooled" then you are not "passing yourself off" as the other gender.

[Kate T]

I'm guessing it is some sort of homeland security law as otherwise usually anti discrimination law trumps most other laws as it is generally associated with international treaties.

I would be seeking clarification. And as much as I am not a fan of discrimination if the advise was legally correct then I would be cautious about travelling femme as I doubt you really want to be arrested under any sort of security law. It would certainly be something though I think I would be bringing up before the Anti-discrimination commissioner or other similar authority.

[Candice Mae]

Hmm... May need to keep some of my old clothes around, otherwise I will be grounded. I wonder if this applies to boarder crossings, preventing me from going to the states to catch a flight. As I really have no reason to fly with in Canada.

[JenniferR771]

Does that mean CTSA demands that women who wear jeans, boots, and have short hair are not permitted to fly? Or is it OK as long as they are carrying a purse?
This is upsetting. Thanks for the information, Isha.
Hopefully more enlightened persons will reverse this sad idea.

[ReineD]

I have an anecdote to offer. I live in the US. I recently renewed a lapsed 5-year Canadian passport. in 2009 shortly after it was issued, I received a call from Passport Canada apologizing for the mistake, but they had given me a Male designation on my passport. The representative asked me to send her the passport as soon as I could so that she could fix the mistake. I was due to fly to Canada a few weeks hence, so I didn't send it. And then I forgot about it. During the course of the 5 years, every time I remembered was when I needed it to travel to Canada, so it was not the time to mail it in and wait to have it corrected. I have flown to Canada and driven across borders multiple times per year. NO ONE has ever even pointed out that my passport gender was "M"! (and no, I don't look like a guy. :p)

People can be sticklers when citing rules, but in practice it is another matter.

Also, Sandra has a good point. If your passport and ticket indicate "M", then there is no issue. It is not up to the CATSA to comment on your hair length or clothing choices. People change their hair length and color, men grow and shave beards, etc.

FYI, the exact wording of the law is as follows:

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-2007-82/FullText.html


5.2 (1) An air carrier shall not transport a passenger if
(a) the passenger presents a piece of photo identification and does not resemble the photograph;
(b) the passenger does not appear to be the age indicated by the date of birth on the identification he or she presents;
(c) the passenger does not appear to be of the gender indicated on the identification he or she presents; or
(d) the passenger presents more than one form of identification and there is a major discrepancy between those forms of identification.

(2) Despite paragraph (1)(a), an air carrier may transport a passenger who presents a piece of photo identification but does not resemble the photograph if
(a) the passenger’s appearance changed for medical reasons after the photograph was taken and the passenger presents the air carrier with a document signed by a health care professional and attesting to that fact; or
(b) the passengers’s face is bandaged for medical reasons and the passenger presents the air carrier with a document signed by a health care professional and attesting to that fact.

I think the intent is to prevent a person from using someone else's passport as their own for nefarious reasons. If a transsexual has had FFS, is on HRT, and no longer looks like her old photo, yet she has not had her gender marker legally changed, could she not have her passport photo changed while still retaining the "M" until such time as she can legally change it to "F", plus carry a letter indicating that she is undergoing transition? I don't take it that the law is preventing someone from appearing in the manner they choose.

[Rachael Leigh]

Does sound a little strange to me for sure I mean if you have all the legal docs that prove who you are who cares how your dressed. I mean just come thru Mexico Isha, doesn't seem like they care at all who comes thru that border lol.

[Rhonda Darling]

Isha:

A very sad state of affairs. This is probably worth speaking to a Canada based trans-rights organization for some competent advice as to how this has played out in real life for CD/TG/TS ladies. The law seems vague, so check with the CATSA office to see if there are post orders or other written guidance for the officers at checkpoints.

For reference, this is the link to the USA's TSA site about transgendered travelers:
http://www.tsa.gov/traveler-information/transgender-travelers.

Good luck and please keep us posted on your findings.

Best regards,
Rhonda

[Gillian Gigs]

I am never ashamed to be a Canadian, if anyone is to blame, blame the terrorist groups that are destroying our freedoms, so we may be kept safe, from them!Border security is a very serious business, not flying enfemme is a small price to pay to help keep out those who would bring harm into our respective countries. It is sad that there are individuals who would not show respect to anyone, regardless of the reason, and well done that they should be reported. To bring this into prospective we need to remember that people will willingly give up freedoms to be kept safe, which isn't right, but still a reality. If we want safety, then we all have a price to pay, whether we like it or not.

[Launa]

I am never ashamed to be a Canadian, if anyone is to blame, blame the terrorist groups that are destroying our freedoms, so we may be kept safe, from them!Border security is a very serious business, not flying enfemme is a small price to pay to help keep out those who would bring harm into our respective countries. It is sad that there are individuals who would not show respect to anyone, regardless of the reason, and well done that they should be reported. To bring this into prospective we need to remember that people will willingly give up freedoms to be kept safe, which isn't right, but still a reality. If we want safety, then we all have a price to pay, whether we like it or not.

Yeah, they sure never explained it to Isha like this did they? They need some sensitivity training and back up plans when situations like this occur.

[LelaK]

I prefer no mention of terrorists, since I'm probably not free here to give my reply (such as the shame of the war on "terror").

[sandra-leigh]

not flying enfemme is a small price to pay to help keep out those who would bring harm into our respective countries.

Are you volunteering to pay for my gender therapy and my HRT medications and my electrolysis? Considering that you feel they are only a "small price" ?

Thought experiment: recall the last time you flew. Now how much did it matter to you whether the person two rows away was "really" male or "really" female as they appeared to be? Would you have prepared different mental emergency plans if you knew that their chromosomes were not what they had first glanced appeared? But you wouldn't have worried about whether the femme-looking XX woman had been taking testosterone and working out and had only put on a femme appearance today because they worried about being refused the flight if their appearance (normally more male-ish) did not match their not-yet-changed legal gender? The dignified short 98 pound young woman, would you have taken more safety measures if he had been forced to put on his man-costume and so look like a miserable "98 pound weakling" ?

What a person wears on the flight is not the real issue for "terror". Whether a proper upper limit on a person's dangerousness has been judged is more important. There is, however, no screening for strength or fighting skills or ability to manipulate mobs or the like.

Have you paid attention to why flights have early landings due to passenger behavior? Drunks, mostly. Belligerent refusal to remove something that is interfering with adjustment of the seats. Making a big fuss because the tea is not warm enough. Panicking because they notice that a fellow passenger is calmly reading Arabic-language news sites (yes, they yanked the reader off of the flight, questioned him, and sent him onward when it became obvious that he was never any threat.) Did I mention the panic over a couple of passengers talking Arabic to each other?

Surely it would be a small price to pay if passengers were prohibited from reading, talking, playing games, listening to music, communicating through sign language, or anything else that could potentially be used to... ummm, coordinate attacks? Discuss targets? Well, we'll work out that part out later, better to be safe, right? Hey you, stop that coughing! And you, don't scratch yourself !!

[Kate T]

if anyone is to blame, blame the terrorist groups that are destroying our freedoms, so we may be kept safe, from them!
Really, seriously, it is OK to discriminate and perpetrate intolerance and misunderstanding because it is a part of the fight against terrorism. The whole point of fighting terrorism is fighting intolerance and discrimination.

Rule 5.2.1(c) seems to be fairly clear though in that it is illegal for a carrier to transport a person whose appearance is of a different gender to that stated on their identification. I think the law is poorly thought out. It should be sufficient to legally require a person to be able to verify that they are the person identified in the document presented. Interestingly Reine it would be possible that technically you could have been refused travel based on 5.2.1(c) despite clearly being the person in the photo identification. To be frank Rule 5.2.1 is actually a legal mess and would probably be torn apart by a half decent lawyer if genuinely challenged.

[Teresa]

Isha I'm surprised you have encountered this problem on an internal flight !
The officials concerned have dealt with it badly and the problem should be corrected !
I don't mean this to sound facetious but if you had actually arranged to meet someone on arrival who only knew you only as Isha, what would happen if you actually changed in the toilet on the plane ? What rules cover that eventuality ?

[BOBBI G.]

Teresa,

Interesting comment to the issue. They would have gotten off visually checking the carry-on, and done it publicly, in an attempt to embarrass. IQ's are not a requirement for government jobs, on either side of our border, and these employed by these agencies should be grateful for this. Oh, yes, I live south of the Canadian border (next door), and we are still having occasional problems here. All of this security is the reason I no longer fly. I now plan all my travels using private means and save myself the headache of aggravations.

Bobbi

[Georgina]

Isha did he say it was illegal for a male to wear a dress? It appears he only mentioned genitalia. If the genitalia match the gender on the passport is there a problem? Changing clothes does not change gender.

[Marcelle]

. . . People can be sticklers when citing rules, but in practice it is another matter.

Also, Sandra has a good point. If your passport and ticket indicate "M", then there is no issue. It is not up to the CATSA to comment on your hair length or clothing choices. People change their hair length and color, men grow and shave beards, etc.

FYI, the exact wording of the law is as follows:

5.2 (1) An air carrier shall not transport a passenger if
(a) the passenger presents a piece of photo identification and does not resemble the photograph;
(b) the passenger does not appear to be the age indicated by the date of birth on the identification he or she presents;
(c) the passenger does not appear to be of the gender indicated on the identification he or she presents; or

I think the intent is to prevent a person from using someone else's passport as their own for nefarious reasons... I don't take it that the law is preventing someone from appearing in the manner they choose.

Hi Reine,

I agree in principle and from other feedback received from a local TG support group . . . there have been few issues with "trans" persons flying while presenting in the opposite gender from their travel documentation. Specifically, if you look like your photo ID even while dressed (i.e., you don't pass whatsoever) it is unlikely they will prevent you from boarding as it is a touchy subject. However this is a lot of "might, should, may, can". Others have said, if the letter of the regulation is applied "the passenger does not appear to be of the gender indicated on the identification he or she presents" it can be left up the CSTSA agent to interpret what that means as there is no policy on the CSTSA site for transgender travel. So if I happen upon a ticketing agent or CSTSA employee who looks at me and says . . . "you are presenting as a woman and your ID says male . . . no flight for you" I can certainly ask to see a supervisor but if they side with the agent then I am out of luck and arguing the point will only be me ejected from the airport as a safety concern.

So while the wording may have been designed with the best intentions to ensure some terrorist does not slip through disguised as a woman the interpretation is too broad. Hence the reason why the two dimwits I talked to yesterday interpreted the regulation as unless I am TS with the working parts removed or have a doctor's letter saying I am going through the process . . . I can't fly while presenting myself as a woman regardless of how poorly I pass. BTW I just checked my ticket from my outbound flights to Washington from Canada and nowhere is "gender" even indicated.


. . . If we want safety, then we all have a price to pay, whether we like it or not.

Hi Gillian,

My gender presentation has nothing to do with "safety" and everything to do with IMHO providing a poorly worded regulation which could provide the opportunity for some CSTSA employee or ticketing agent to discriminate at will. I have to ponder the question why a security risk would go through all the trouble to disguise himself as a woman only to present "male" identification when boarding a flight . . . hmmm seems a bit counterintuitive . . . "yes I know it says male on my passport but trust me I am a woman, nudge, nudge, wink, wink". :thinking:

Regarding "giving up rights" for the sake of safety . . . are you serious? :eek: I get so tired of people throwing that Conservative tripe about restricting basic human rights for the greater good BS. Don't fool yourself, whenever we give up basic rights in the name of "freedom and or safety" we become less free and less safe. I am in the military and have seen first hand what curtailed freedom and rights do in other countries . . . funny how my TG status is never an issue when it is time go deploy for the sake of freedom. :thinking:

Hugs

Isha

[Krisi]

Blame it on the terrorists. People who are willing to kill themselves just to take out a few hundred innocent others who don't believe in the same supreme being as they do. It wasn't so long ago that you could buy a plane ticket and just walk onto the plane and sit down. You could give your ticket to a friend and he or she could just walk onto the plane and sit down. Been there, done that.

Now, because of the threat of terrorists, your privacy is invaded, you have to prove who you are and stand in long lines to get on the plane. They have rules but the rules don't apply to every situation (such as transgendered or crossdressers). The agents are left to decide some things on their own and these folks are people who were not at the top of their graduating class.

The easiest thing to do is suck it up and dress how you are expected to dress. You can change when you get off the plane.

[Marcelle]

Hello Krisi,

The intent of my post was to find out if anyone has had issues boarding flights in Canada not so much who agrees with the regulations or not. However, I do thank you for your response even though I don't agree with the premise of it :)

Yes you are right . . . I suppose I could just "suck it up" and dress how I am expected to dress and change when I get off the plane. However that is not really the point is it now? What next . . . perhaps you will be required to ensure your photo documentation matches your presentation should the local police pull you over (all in the name of safety of course) or should you just simply be asked for it by police on a random check. So I guess we should just "suck it up" and dress as expected by narrow minded people and never present in public again? Just saying . . . the "just suck it up approach never works" when it comes to rights and freedoms.

Hugs

Isha

[Princess Chantal]

Thanks for the comments like "blame it on the terrorists" and "homeland security", I really needed a chuckle this morning! It is discrimination based and stubborness to accept alternative lifestyles.

[Krisi]

I'm glad I put some humor into your life today.

Seriously, the checking of ID cards and such has nothing at all to do with discrimination based and stubborness to accept alternative lifestyles, it's an attempt to make sure that people boarding airplanes are who they say they are and not people intent on blowing up the plane or running it into targets on the ground. It's for your own safety. It's inconvenient but necessary in today's troubled times.

I hope I make myself clear.

[Gillian Gigs]

Krisi quote," it's an attempt to make sure that people boarding airplanes are who they say they are and not people intent on blowing up the plane or running it into targets on the ground. It's for your own safety. It's inconvenient but necessary in today's troubled times."

I had a friend who attempted to use an air ticket to travel from Edmonton to Toronto back in the 80's that was not in his name. Wow, what a nightmare for him, all of his friends learned a lesson from that one. The whole thing was about deception, and not being who the ticket said that he was. Well in the paranoid world we live in today, CDing can be miscontrued as being deception by an individual. I am not saying that it is right, or wrong, just stating that it can be misconstured that way.

Giving up freedoms for the sake of safety has nothing to do with politics, liberal, or conservative, people just want to feel safe within their own country. Is it right that someone can get pulled from a plane due to racial profiling, no, but it is going to happen when the paranoid people run amock. There must be a very thin line between paranoia, and "this is not going to happen on my watch", so I attempt to co-operate with any law enforcement agency who is keeping my country safe. They will make mistakes, but let us hope those mistakes don't give us another 911.

All religion, or politics aside I am a proud Canadian who is damm glad to live next door to the USA, and we need to work together to make our countries safe to live in!

[CONSUELO]

Sadly, the entire tenor of reaction to terrorist attacks seems to have been the restriction of the freedom of citizens and the institution of mindless bureaucratic rules enforced in a rude and aggressive fashion .

I had to travel to Canada frequently a few years ago and was struck by the absence of an open friendly manner that was so evident in prior years. Gone were the welcoming smiles and relaxed manner to be replaced by severe faces and dark paramilitary uniforms with stab vests. Similarly in the UK, where immigration officials usually wore smart but casual clothing and were quite pleasant and relaxed, there is a trend to severity and uniformity.

Along with this tendency to regard everyone as a potential terrorist comes the need to check everyone including small children and elderly people in wheel chairs.

The result is that an innocent person who chooses to dress in clothing normally associated with the opposite sex, is treated disrespectfully and aggressively.

I have come to dislike flying because of this dreadful and moronic security apparatus. If at all possible I take other forms of transport where security is more relaxed. Unfortunately a train trip across Canada is not a practical option in this case.

[Marcelle]

... Giving up freedoms for the sake of safety has nothing to do with politics, liberal, or conservative, people just want to feel safe within their own country.

Gillian . . . again . . . are you serious? You would gladly give up freedoms just to feel safe? Okay, what would you do if the government passed a law advocating that any who dresses as the opposite gender is suspect of potential terrorist activity because they are hiding something and these same people can be arrested and detained at will . . . oh and your neighbours and friends are free to turn you in. Would you allow that happen? Would you give up that freedom to feel safe? And safe from what?

If I present myself at the airport as Isha and my ID is male what security threat am I by presenting ID openly as male. Are you implying my being dressed as a woman makes me deceptive hence I have no right to be treated with respect and dignity because these great law enforcement agencies you are talking about are keeping you safe? I have shed a lot for this country so don't even get me started on the whole making the world safe for democracy tripe. This is a blatant attempt by the Conservative government to backdoor discrimination policy aimed at the trans community and I find it difficult to believe one of our own would roll over and say "okay so long as you are making the country safe please step on whatever rights you need to".

Isha

[Isabella Ross]

Isha, my Canadian sister, I feel for you. But I find myself nodding in agreement with Krisi and Gillian. I think it's vital that anyone working in critical security areas has the ability to view official ID and compare it to the person standing in front of them...and that's what happens during the final gate check in Canada, even on domestic flights. I find similarities between this situation and the furor that erupted when women of Muslim faith demanded that they should not be required to remove the veil in court, etc. Sometimes we just need to prove who we are. In the absence of a full transition and all the legal steps one must take to complete this, I think presenting ourselves as who we are on our official ID is a small price to pay for living in our great country. Furthermore, the US is also similar. Here's the official word from the US TSA:

"Making Reservations: Secure Flight requires airlines to collect a traveler’s full name, date of birth, gender and Redress Number (if applicable) to significantly decrease the likelihood of watch list misidentification. Travelers are encouraged to use the same name, gender, and birth date when making the reservation that match the name, gender, and birth date indicated on the government-issued ID that the traveler intends to use during travel."

Note, however, that travelers are only "encouraged" rather than forced to present themselves in the same gender as their ID.

But while we may differ on the need for the policy, we are certainly in agreement over one thing: the agent you dealt with, and the superior who was consulted, were rude and insulting...and clearly in need of formal reeducation, reassignment, and even possibly dismissal.

[Marcelle]

Hi Bridgette,

No issues with yours, Gillian's or Krisis' beliefs. However, I caution that I have seen first hand the direct result of "give up some rights in the name of freedom" in other countries and when it gets started it doesn't end. As someone who has spent a greater part of his adult life defending this nation I am saddened to see "curtailing of rights" hidden under the guise of "safety" . . . we saw this same thing during WWII with Japanese nationals held in interment camps, property confiscated and no apology afterwards . . . heck it was just in the name of security and safety after all.

Hugs

Isha

[Katey888]

Yes, I'm know I'm not Canadian and I think Reine has closed off the 'Those Who May Know' aspect, but I have spent quite a few years working with the security services here in the UK including the period of the 2005 London bombings.

Isha, I feel bad for you that you have been made to feel the way you have as rudeness and lack of tact is simply inexcusable, from any public service employee, and I hope they get a sound, metaphorical thrashing for it! I think the legal enforceability of the law is questionable and although the rationale (of preventing someone disguised as someone they are not) seems sound, I don't believe any terrorist acts are carried out by perps disguised in a Mission Impossible-esque way... however, the civilian security services have a serious job to do and the ramifications of them allowing a perp through screening are just too horrible and nightmarish to consider. I do believe it is better that a few innocent people are inconvenienced versus 200 innocent people meeting a fiery end... :eek:

It is a reduction of our freedom, but it's one of those compromises that we make in order to be part of a broad society that curtails some freedoms in order to safeguard others. Travelling to Germany on vacs through Heathrow a few years back I was pulled to one side at security because I had forgotten that my mini-Leatherman was in the coin pocket of my jeans... I had the full grilling over a 1" pair of scissors and a tiny blade and was doubly embarrassed because at the time I was working with the Met Police who provide the police presence at the airport, although I think that fact helped reduce the lecture a little... my point being, I think the restriction on small sharps is totally absurd when you can buy much more effective weapons in the duty free shops at any major airport - but we have to go along with some arbitrary measures - and keeping it clear about proving identity is probably one of those areas.

The rudeness and approach is inexcusable - I think the need to both prove and validate identity is a genuine one, although you'd think that either finger-vein or iris recognition would be better, more sophisticated, non-subjective and non-gender related ways to go about it... perhaps you could suggest that as part of your complaint? :)

Katey x

[Marcelle]

Hi all,

No issues with people's belief's about safety and we are all entitled. However, I would like to bring this thread back on point if possible and ask if any Canadian members have recently travelled "en femme" (well since 2012 when the regulation went into force) and what was their experience (good or bad).

Hugs

Isha

[Isabella Ross]

Isha, I have not...and I apologize for my part in trending away from your original question. Heck, I'm nervous stepping out on my back deck, let alone into an airport. I did want to concede that it can be a slippery slope from maintaining security to erosion of personal rights and freedoms.

[flatlander_48]

"Unless you have your equipment removed or have a doctor's letter saying it will be done within the year, it is illegal to fly as the opposite gender".

This is the part that I find curious. From what I've seen, I believe 1 year is often a minimum of time that one must live as female (assuming M2F) before being approved for SRS. Sounds like the regulation was created without much input from professionals who counsel pre-op transexuals.

[ReineD]

"you are presenting as a woman and your ID says male . . . no flight for you"

Isha, the regulations say nothing about how a person presents (which I take to mean clothing choices). The wording is, "(c) the passenger does not appear to be of the gender indicated on the identification he or she presents;"

I'll get back to my earlier point. If a TS has not yet legally changed her gender marker from M to F but she has had FFS and HRT, and her features have changed considerably since her last passport picture, could she not have a new picture taken? If the passenger looks like her picture, then what would be the issue? Presumably such a person would also be in transition, and it would not be difficult to carry a letter as is directed in Item 5.2(2), until such time as her gender marker is changed?

In the case of someone whose features have not changed and the difference in presentation is only a wig, forms, and clothing, then I do not see how an employee or their supervisor can make a judgment on the hair and clothing, especially if the passenger is visibly male and pulls the hair back to reveal a face that looks like the passport picture.

When I buy a ticket online, they always ask my gender. It's not on the ticket but it's in their database.

I agree though, the law is poorly worded. I hope they are working on improving it.

[Marcelle]

Hi all,

A bit of an update as finding any information (definitive in nature that is) on this subject is like spotting a Leprechaun chasing a Sasquatch while riding a Unicorn. :)

I finally got through to CSTSA agent to discuss my experience at the Airport with the two DBs. He informed me that they (CSTSA) agents do not verify identity only the boarding pass and the security of the carry on luggage so the issue does not lie with CSTSA and he also indicated that the two who were rude will be sanctioned accordingly (whatever that means) as they had no right to speak to such policy. He further indicated that it is up to the Airline Boarding Gate personnel to verify identity and to his knowledge no TG persons have been prevented from flying but then again he was not sure if any had either. His understanding is that if you can be discerned from your ID (facial feature recognition) then there should not be a problem however as far as he knows, there is no guidance given to Airline personnel on making that call.

My next call was to Air Canada . . . what a joy that was. I talked to several people and asked about their TG policy and identity screening and nobody could answer my question directly as they were not sure. One person was not aware of any identity restrictions, one person suggested that I just save myself some hassle and fly male, another said it should not be a problem so long as I don't look too pretty but look more like a guy (WTF :eek:) and the most disturbing response was . . . "well it is left up to the individual boarding gate agent. If he/she doesn't believe that is you in your ID then they have the right to deny you boarding" So I asked if push came to shove and I removed my wig so they could get a better look at my face would that suffice? The response . . . "It really depends on the agent. If he/she believes that you are trying to conceal your identity by dressing as a woman it is their call. You have the right to complain and seek a second opinion but it is unlikely they will override the initial call and you will be asked to leave." He added that it is not only about the gender you present but how you appear in comparison to the photo ID. He recommended be up front at check in, indicate you are TG and things should be okay as he has never heard of any TG persons being denied boarding a flight based on incongruent ID but then again he could not speak to every case.

Reine,

I asked the agent I talked to about what information is given to employees about what "gender" means. His was response was very telling on how they are applying the term "gender" . . . "Well if you look like a woman and your travel document says "male" then you do not match the gender on your travel documents and this can be an area of concern." I then asked him how does the agent determine if I "look like" a woman. His reply . . . "Well if have longer hair, are wearing women's clothing, make-up and you know look like other women then that is a cause for concern and may be questioned". So, it is easy to see that agents especially in the absence of policy will confuse "look" with "gender". Added to confusion is the other part of the identity screening policy:

5.2 (1) An air carrier shall not transport a passenger if:

(a) the passenger presents a piece of photo identification and does not resemble the photograph;

While I may resemble my boy self when I am presenting as Isha (kind of like a better looking sister :battingeyelashes:) It is still the boarding gate agent's call in that no guidelines exist for them to go by. So, they are free to interpret the regulation as they wish. If the agent feels I am trying to disguise myself he/she can deny me boarding regardless of whether I take off my wig, remove make-up and strip down to my underwear to prove I am 100% guy. This is just a agent doing due diligence with no other hidden agenda. Now what happens when I go up against an agent whose personal belief about TG persons is that we are an abomination, perverts, creeps and degenerates . . . these people do exist and the balance of probabilities would indicate that some are employed as Air Canada personnel. This same person doesn't have to be overtly discriminative in order to discriminate against us based on personal belief. He/she only need look at my ID, smile and say "Sorry ma'am, but I cannot let you board as your ID picture looks nothing like you. Have a nice day." Oh, I could indicate I am willing to remove my wig (nice embarrassing moment for any TG person) and he/she cans still say "Sorry, for the safety of the plane, I cannot let you board". If I continue to argue I am more likely to find myself flanked by two RCMP Officers being escorted from the airport for being a disturbance.

So in the absence of information (more like disinformation) I have decided to travel as Isha. My plan is to arrive at the airport, present my travel documents and declare myself TG and see what happens. Now the annoying part is that in the absence of clear Air Canada policy to its employees, I will have to go through this each time I board a connecting flight. So it is plausible that I might make it through Ottawa, Toronto only to get denied boarding in Calgary prior to my last flight to Vancouver and even then I could be denied boarding for my flight to Victoria.

Ah . . . now don't you feel safer knowing that crazy fundamentalist TG persons can be kicked from a flight at the whim and fancy of one person's definition of what gender means or how you present.

I'll let you know how it goes . . . keeping my fingers crossed.

Hugs

Isha

[Rogina B]

Here in the states,this is where the state ID card with your girl pic comes into play..

[Teresa]

Isha, I was also as impressed with Air Canada as you are ! To call it the national carrier is taking the *****!! and I was travelling in drab !!

I take it you couldn't get a through flight to save you the annoyance of connections ?

Best of luck ! If we hear of Isha's wig being tied to an Air Canada tailplane we know all did not go well !!

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Isha, We will be waiting for further details of your trip, GOOD LUCK .:daydreaming:

[Michelle Deere]

Holly smokes Isha....Ottawa, Toronto, Calgary, Vancouver to Victoria....that's one heck of a milk run to get across the country, or are you stopping en-route?
Obviously, lots of opportunity to "test the system".
To paraphrase a classic movie line "I just wanna tell you: good luck. We're all counting on you".

[Marcelle]

Hi all,

I just received a long winded e-mail from Air Canada's Customer Service regarding my follow-up query. For the most part is was a cut and paste of the Transport Canada ruling and changes to the security screening but this is the part that hit home and effectively ended my trip "en femme" that is.

In order to comply with both governmental regulations, and security requirements, it is in your best interest to travel in the gender in which your identification is issued in.
We look forward to welcoming you onboard for travel.
Best Regards,

I did send a follow-up e-mail and asked does this mean I can or cannot and the response was that they (Air Canada) cannot guarantee the right to board at any stage of the journey as that is up to the individual boarding agent. So in other words . . . if you are Transgender and wish to fly on Air Canada you are taking a risk that you can be ejected from your trip at any connecting gate. So unless your passport says "F" you are welcome to try with the "M" moniker but it is a flip of the coin . . . funny considering they "Look forward to welcoming me onboard for travel" . . . well so long as I am dressed like a dude so as not to upset their sensibilities.

So this gal has taken her TG banner as far as it can go as I need to travel for business and getting ejected from a flight would not be welcome at work. I will however pass this to my Member of Parliament . . . not that I am expecting anything as she is a Conservative and her government put these rules in effect.

Hugs and sorry I could not strike a victory for the greater good of the community. :sad:

Isha

[Judith96a]

I'm not sure whether the "board/not board" decision being effectively at the discretion of the gate agent is worrying or reassuring!

On the one hand, airline gate staff tend to be rather more approachable than airport security or the cops (though it's gotta be said that in my experience police officers tend to be very well trained, very professional and unglazed by anything - somewhat intimidating but, unless you give them reason to believe that you're a potential problem, unlikely to make a fuss). Airline staff tend to want boarding to run smoothly etc. Handling agent staff, in my experience, tend to appear rather less well trained, more officious and much less concerned about either the smoothness of the boarding process or the airline's reputation.
My guess would be that faced with a crossdressed man who looks rather different from the photo on their ID :-
Most police officers will take a hard look, perhaps several hard looks, and then say "thank you ma'am, that's fine". (And probably have a quiet chuckle with their mate)
An airline gate agent will either have several good looks, possibly consult with their colleague etc. and the say "Ok" or will punt the decision to their supervisor (unless, of course, you get an officious *****)
A handling agent agent may not even bother looking at your ID, but if they do is likely to become terminally confused, do the first thing that enters their head and refuse to budge

One snippet that I picked up on a recent flight (different context, nothing to do with CDing) is that, unless the Captain needs to get involved, the final decision as to who / what goes in the cabin rests with the Cabin Services Manager. So, if your concerned about what the gate agent may decide then it might be worth asking to speak to the CSM. Remember that they have a thousand and one things to do in order to get the aircraft ready for passengers, so they may not be thrilled at having to leave the aircraft (especially if they're across the tarmac on a wet day). However, if the CSM says "yes" then the gate agent, airline or otherwise, is unlikely to argue. Hope that this doesn't come across as patronising etc. - it's intended as a compliment to busy gate staff - in my experience asking for the gate staff's help up front, ie before they start actually boarding, (especially if the person whom you approach is female and 30+) works. (In my case the lady in question was very helpful but wasn't quite sure of the best thing to do and suggested consulting the CSM - who sorted the problem very acceptably in 10s flat!)

Hope that you have a pleasant and hassle-free trip. Look forward to hearing the debrief!

[Teresa]

Isha, Not the right outcome but an expected one ! Sorry about your plans ! Is there much choice of other Airlines across Canada ? Might be interesting to see what their policy is !

I still wish you a good trip !

[Kate T]

An unfortunate ruling. I would suggest in addition to passing it on to your member of parliament that you could lodge a complaint with your Antidiscrimination commissioner and also pass on the email trail to any local community legal organisations that have an interest in GLBT rights.

It is somewhat disconcerting that you cannot board the plane dressed as you wish but once on the plane you can consume alcohol as much as you wish with all of the associated issues that that results in. I agree with others as well, lesson 101 in terrorism surely is to blend in, boarding a plane as a cross dresser is hardly blending in. The idea that a terrorist would think that dressing in a manner inconsistent with the gender marker on their travel documents is quite frankly just plain dumb.

[ReineD]

He further indicated that it is up to the Airline Boarding Gate personnel to verify identity and to his knowledge no TG persons have been prevented from flying but then again he was not sure if any had either. His understanding is that if you can be discerned from your ID (facial feature recognition) then there should not be a problem however as far as he knows, there is no guidance given to Airline personnel on making that call.

This is how I read the wording as well. If you look like your picture, then there is no issue. As to airline personnel, they just want to board people safely. You might well run into the lone individual who disapproves of transgenders and who wants to make it an issue, but there are supervisors and more supervisors beyond the supervisors. The goal is to prevent someone from boarding under a disguise who wants to blow up a plane or smuggle goods. I should think that individuals who want to do this would not go up the chain of command if refused boarding, and anyone who did would be offered courteous service with a prompt apology.

I'm sorry that so few people were able to answer your query. If a greater percentage of our population chose to adopt the styles of the opposite sex, I think the laws would be more clearly written and individuals working for airlines and CSTSA would be better trained and they would have daily exposure to gender-nonconforming individuals. As it is, you spoke to individuals who likely had no experience and a different mental image or a sketchy image of the experience you were describing. Rules generally apply reasonably well to the majority, but not so well to the percentages at either end of the spectrum.

The wording really does need reworking to both keep the guidelines that are meant to prevent people who wish to disguise themselves for nefarious reasons (including non-TG men who adopt a woman's disguise), all while respecting a person's right to express an innate gender. Also, personnel need better training to interpret the meaning of the law. Hopefully your queries will help move things along.

[Jennifer-GWN]

Isha;

A close friend says when encountering these kind of situations where all you can do is bang your head again and again and again is know that it will feel soooo good when you stop. Your making so much progress at work it's disheartening to have to deal with this nonsense. Canada is healed up as a diversity and multicultural country and this situation with AC just rots.

Now remember that AC is based in Quebec and from a Provincial government perspective they are fighting the Muslim women / head scarf in quite a nontollerent way which to a degree is somewhat similar here. Just a thought of perspective.

Stand your ground for what is right.

Head in my hands.... Jennifer

[sandra-leigh]

I flew within Canada in summer 2013, and New Years 2013, and had no difficulty in this respect.

If I am going to have difficulty it would more likely be after a gender marker change, as my face is not so female looking.

[Marcelle]

So after consultation and advice from various members of the Trans community in my local area I have decided to dig my heels in (no pun intended :)) on this one. I have bumped my initial Air Canada query up to the management level to see what response I get from the policy makers and I have sent a query to my Member of Parliament.

In the interim, I will test the waters and fly and Isha this Sunday.

Hugs

Isha

[Michelle Deere]

Wishing you safe and trouble free travels Isha.

[Marcelle]

Thanks Michelle,

I am probably getting all spun up due to the Air Canada responses and hype this regulation received back in 2012 but I still can't help being very nervous.

Regarding the "milk run" flight . . . yeah as this was booked travel for work they went for the cheapest fare so I will be collecting milk and testing the system in several airports.

Hugs

Isha

[sandra-leigh]

DailyXtra reports (http://dailyxtra.com/canada/news/passport-canada-rejects-sex-unspecified-passports) people have had problems in practice.


A spokesperson for Transport Canada told Xtra in 2012 that people who may be affected by the regulations would be permitted to fly if they provide medical certificates. The clause the spokesperson cited, however, refers to a mismatch between the photo and the person’s face, not between the sex inscription and the person’s perceived sex.

“I get little reassurance from this provision in the identity screening regulations that says it will be fine if you have a doctor’s letter with you,” Smith says. “This section has to do with a mismatch between photo ID and the person, so if you no longer match the image of yourself, there is a requirement that says you can have a doctor’s letter. But what I’m hearing from members of my community and from clients of mine is that, despite having a doctor’s letter, trans people are often grounded because their identity documents don’t match their current appearance.”

Between Passport Canada’s and Transport Canada’s rules, many trans and intersex Canadians who need or wish to travel are reluctant to do so.

“I’ve avoided going anywhere because of having to travel with my [female] passport,” says Lennox LePage, a trans man who sits on the board of directors of Pride Muskoka in Ontario. “I certainly wouldn’t attempt to fly with my passport for any reason.”

[Marcelle]

Hi Sandra,

That is exactly what I am nervous about . . . goodness could they make travelling anymore nerve wrecking. Oh well, I am still going to give it a go . . . if I get grounded well my next stop will be the papers. I suppose people won't care or won't understand (just man up and dress like a dude . . . geez what's the problem) but then again those people have no concept what it means to be TG.

Thanks again

Isha

[samantha rogers]

Well, here I am, late to the party...as always. But, for what its worth, a good friend who joined us in Atlanta for SCC came from Canada. She flew to the US in drab but returned en femme. My recollection is that she had no real difficulty.
I agree with you wholeheartedly about giving up freedoms to protect them. I have always thought that line to be wrong. But in this case what I find appalling is the amount of control and power that a poorly written policy gives to so many individuals at such low levels of regular authority. It simply opens the door, as you say, for one close minded jerk to wreak havoc.
I know there is much discussion within the tg world as to "proper" strategy for making this world better for us within this community. I know many prefer to quietly blend and take no activist role. I know others prefer a more "in their face" confrontational approach. I think this (travel) is an area where quietly blending is the wrong approach. I know you and I know you will be polite, tasteful, friendly and logical. I am so glad you have decided to go for it. I cannot think of anyone better suited to serve as ambassador in this situation. I do hope it goes smoothly.I so hope it is all good and you are able to experience the joy of being yourself in this new situation. But if there is a problem, I know you will handle it superbly. If nothing else, simply reveal your amazing service record and ask them how they feel about abusing the rights of someone who has given so much to protect their rights. I would love to hear the answer to that question.
Please do let us know how this goes. I will be waiting with bated breath.
So proud of you, girl!
:love:

[Michelle Deere]

As I'm sure you have already Isha, I have searched for news items related to any problems encountered by trans* persons flying in Canada. Plenty of items right after the policy came into existence (and stories about a topless TG incident on Westjet) but nothing else. Surly there have been many trans* flying in the last couple of years?

The other interesting fact about this whole thing is ref "5.2 (1) (c) the passenger does not appear to be of the gender indicated on the identification he or she presents". Funny, both my drivers licence and passport indicate SEX not GENDER. So, technically, by the letter of the policy, it can't be done. :confused:
Yep, who ever wrote this needs to be educated, there is a difference.

[Marcelle]

Hi Michelle,

You are right and I am probably getting all spun up for a big non event at the airport as there has been little news since 2012 (I just hope I don't end up as the 2014 poster child :)) and I have spoken to others who have flown since it no issue . . . I guess we will see. Yeah I pointed that out to Air Canada as my "passport" and "driver's licence" indicate "sex" which is a biological marker basically assigned via "genitalia". So I asked them "how do you agents verify that?" Nobody responded to my question and they kept going back to gender.

Hugs

Isha

[Annaliese]

On my flight back from North Dakota this week, was the guy hacking the hole flight, there are so much more they should be paying attention to than what someone is wearing. At the airport in ND the TSA made me pull the bag out with all my make up in it, my boss was standing right next to me. I find that smaller airports the TSA go over board and it not about safety.

[Alana Lucerne]

Good luck Isha. I am sure it will go well. I suspect as long as the boarding agent can recognize it is you in the photograph in your id, you will be fine. Remember that most of those photographs are terrible anyway and it could be anyone. I feel insulted when people look at my drivers licence and say they can recognize me. It doesn't look anything like me.... it's some blurry troglodyte.

And if it doesn't go well, and you get busted in Calgary, I'll come bail you out.

Alana

[Marcelle]

LOL Alana . . . I know what you mean about the photos. I'll look you up if I get booted from the plane in Calgary.

Hugs

Isha

[sometimes_miss]

Does that mean CTSA demands that women who wear jeans, boots, and have short hair are not permitted to fly? Or is it OK as long as they are carrying a purse?
We all know that this doesn't apply to women. The double standard about gender is still in full force.


The other interesting fact about this whole thing is ref "5.2 (1) (c) the passenger does not appear to be of the gender indicated on the identification he or she presents". Funny, both my drivers licence and passport indicate SEX not GENDER. So, technically, by the letter of the policy, it can't be done. :confused:
Yep, who ever wrote this needs to be educated, there is a difference.
yeah, in a court of law I suppose that's correct, but that won't stop you from going through all the aggravation of being pulled aside to argue your case, and potentially get pulled off the flight while they debate your point.


The easiest thing to do is suck it up and dress how you are expected to dress. You can change when you get off the plane.

^this. After all, we've spent so much of our lives living as standard issue males, what's a few more hours? If you want, wear a nice comfy pair of panties under sweatpants and a t shirt, have a few drinks, listen to some music once they allow mp3 players to be used, bring a board a copy of Cosmo and Glamour, a nice book from recommended reads listed on Seventeen magazines' website, and enjoy a (hopefully) uneventful flight. You'll hardly remember that you're a guy at all.

[Marcelle]

Sometimes Miss,

Not hacking on your post but you and others are missing the point IMHO. Of course I can fly as a "guy, dude, bloke, man" whatever. What we are talking about is a curtail of fundamental rights and something I feel very strongly about. I have spent 32 years defending this country and to be potentially denied basic mobility rights because of the way I choose to express my gender . . . well kind of makes that whole "defence of democracy thing" a moot point. So I choose not to ignore but push the point. If I get bumped then so be it . . . next stop will be to make the country aware of it. Will anyone care what one disgruntle CDer has to say? Probably not. But if I can make one person go "hmm that seems a bit unfair" then I will feel somewhat vindicated. When I signed on to defend my country, it was not just against external threats but also internal threats and those include the erosion of fundamental rights of all Canadians including the Trans community.

Will get off my soapbox now as that was not the intent of this post.

Hugs

Isha

[Robynts]

Isha, even though you are Canadian, I still appreciate all your efforts to stand up for Trans rights both at home in Canada and elsewhere.

You are right about the continuing loss of rights. Most people are afraid of being afraid. As FDR said "we have nothing to fear but fear itself."

So many folks are freely giving up their rights in an effort to be safer, I am sure that you would agree (maybe privately) that the actions taken since 911 are likely to have a very small impact on a smart person committed to doing bad things.

We will give up our rights, one little bit at a time until there are none of any significance left. We will end up like the frog in the pot of water that is getting hotter and hotter eventually the frog is cooked and he never notices.

[Dianne S]

I have spent 32 years defending this country and to be potentially denied basic mobility rights because of the way I choose to express my gender . . . well kind of makes that whole "defence of democracy thing" a moot point.

Isha: You rock. I'm glad we have people like you fighting for Canada.

Back to the point of the regulation: I cannot see how preventing someone from expressing him or her self as the opposite gender has any impact whatsoever on security. Airport security in North America is mostly theatre anyway, designed to make the public feel that at least something is being done.

Enforcing this regulation means: Great, next time there's an attack, we'll know the attacker's "true" gender. Whoopie.

[andreanna]

This whole thing makes me embarrassed to admit that I am Canadian. I cross the border many times a month and Canadian officials are extremely arrogant. Granted I use land crossings but they just seem to think that they a bit better than anyone else. I have been stuck coming into Canada a few times for hours while the "officials" went out for a smoke. Thank goodness that I don't come across dressed. Don't need the hassle.

[Beverley Sims]

Seeing others have weighed in as also being un-Canadian I thought I would add my piece.

There are a lot of Victorian laws still on the statute books and they have just not been upgraded to reflect the times.
I think there is still one for transportation to Austraia if you step out of line.

Gotta luv those Brits. :)

I go to Montreal in a few days time alsol.

[Tora]

There is a quote.... Those who would give up Freedom for security, deserve neither. Get involved. Society is dealing with new problems. The solution or reaction to the new problems are not always the first or simplest. Bureaucrats go for the CYA solution even if is tough on the 99% who are not the problem.

[Marcelle]

Hi all,

Heading to the Airport (as Isha) in about and hour . . . keeping my fingers crossed. I'll let you know how it goes when I get back next Saturday (of course unless I don't get on the flight then I'll let you know today :)). Will be working quite steady on the West Coast with no internet access so until next Saturday.

Hugs and thanks for all your support.

Isha

[Michelle Deere]

Bon voyage!

will be waiting eagerly for trip details.

Michelle.

[Stephanie Sometimes]

Best of luck Isha and safe travels! I will be hoping you don't have a bit of a problem on your flights. Thanks for your efforts to stand up for all of us.
Hugs,
Steph

[ophelia]

Why fly? To me itt just seems to be a giant wormhole of trouble to attempt to fly enfemme. What do you get out of trying that?
When I dress I want to be as worry free as possible. I don't want to be forced to sit next, or to have someone forced into the seat next to me someone who wouldn't understand...
I don't mean to judge, but inform me as to the point for those who do.

[Alice Torn]

For those like you, who have served your country long and well, and some of us who served short and well, it is frustrating, that they treated you this way. I agree, that canadian border agents can be harsh! I crossed into Canada, south of Cranbrook, in 2003, and they treated me like a possible terrorist, and took every last thing out of my old 1977 Plymouth Volare. I was going to a church fall feast of tabernacles harvest festival.

[ReineD]

I'm sure it will be fine, Isha. Have a nice flight! :)

[Leslie Langford]

For those like you, who have served your country long and well, and some of us who served short and well, it is frustrating, that they treated you this way. I agree, that canadian border agents can be harsh! I crossed into Canada, south of Cranbrook, in 2003, and they treated me like a possible terrorist, and took every last thing out of my old 1977 Plymouth Volare. I was going to a church fall feast of tabernacles harvest festival.

Alice, you had a 1977 Plymouth Volare that lasted until 2003 (and maybe even beyond that)??? No wonder the border guards were suspicious. ;)

I once had a 1977 Dodge Aspen (the Volare's sister model), which was one of the worst pieces of sh*t ever built and made the Lada and Yugo look good in comparison. Went through 2 transmissions, 3 radiators, and 3 alternators in the space of 6 years. It was particularly fond of stalling unexpectedly at highway speeds or when crossing over bridges causing the power steering and brakes to suddenly go dead. Also, if you listened carefully enough, you could actually hear it rust... :sad: :doh:

[ophelia]

I haven't crossed the border into the US in decades, but watching a show on Global on Friday nights which deals with border guards has been illuminating. 9/11 changed everything, and now this ISIS business has only made things worse.
What I have learned from this Global TV show is that border guards are now, more than ever, trained to key into nervous or uneasy behaviour. So it follows that unless you plan to cross totally at ease with your look and walk and everything...you are going to get the Royal Canadian Treatment.
We Canadians are nice people once you get past the (dis)honor guard.
Again, my best advice is to enter Canada in drab and enjoy the freedom of our land.

[Eringirl]

Isha?? IIIIIshaaaaa ?? Has anyone seen Isha?? Hoping she made it through....haven't heard anything on CBC....;)

Hope you are safe kiddo ! :hugs:

As always, so proud of you !

Let us know you are okay as soon as you can....

Erin

[Michelle Deere]

Erin. No news is good news...hopefully..haha.

We all now have to sit and wait until next weekend. Its going to be a long week.

[Alice Torn]

Leslie, Don't faint! I am driving a 1976 Dodge Aspen now, and have had it since 2001! It is my fourth of four Aspens or Volare's i had in the Seattle area. Yes,it has taken constant work, mainly electrical ills. And, the salt on the winter roads here, is causing it to "rust out loud." But, that slant six motor lasts forever , almost! I am too broke to get another car, though, and spent too much on lady clothes! Maybe the border guards did suspect i was a bit odd, for driving that car.

[Bailey420]

No new updates, so I'm hoping no news is good news? I hope your travels were pleasant and uneventful Isha :)
I can't wait to hear how it went.

And as far as I'm concerned, every time we allow the government to take away any of our rights and freedoms in the name of safety and security, as trivial as they may seem to us at the time, we are moving one little step closer to martial law

[Robynts]

OK, suspense is killing me! Isha, how did your trip go?