Being traditionally masculine or feminine

[Nadine Spirit]

I have read many posts about those that are in a DADTDS (don’t ask, don’t tell, don’t show) relationship. One post in particular just last night where a GG said that she does not want to see any sign of her husband doing something that is considered to be traditionally feminine; like for example, shaving any part of their body. The point being that many of these women want to see their men as men; they do not want to stop seeing the masculine covered up or obscured by traditionally feminine things.

This got me thinking this morning; I wonder does it go both ways? Are any of you that have SOs who tell you how they want you to dress and behave, do you also get to tell them how they get to dress and behave? That maybe you want them to do things that are considered to be traditionally more feminine and that you do not want to see them do things that are traditionally considered to be masculine.

Like for example, it is fine that they do not want to wear makeup, but you want to see them with makeup. Or maybe, it is fine that they want to wear pants, but you just don’t want to see it. Or how about you want to make sure that when your children see their legs, they had better be shaved because you don’t want them to confuse your children about what mommy is choosing to do?

Okay, so maybe I am being a bit sarcastic (who me?) but I am honestly curious if it goes both ways? I suspect that maybe it doesn’t. Because I get the impression that this is how our society goes. It is okay for women to do a variety of things both traditionally masculine and feminine and it does not make them any less of a woman, but honestly from what I read, many GGs do not want their men to do things that are traditionally seen as feminine because it does make them less masculine, and it is a problem.

I am curious as to what other’s thoughts on this are as being gender non-conforming 100% of the time, I frequently ponder traditional masculine and feminine roles in our society and I think I see things a bit differently than most.

[bridget thronton]

I would never dream of dictating to my wife as to how to dress - i will offer an honest opinion is asked or a compliment spontaneously

[Eringirl]

Totally one sided. Would never impose my values on my SO. Here body, her choice. Would I prefer that she were less mens t shirts and more dresses/skirts/heels, a bit of makeup etc, absolutely ! But in the end she has to be happy with how she looks, not me. So I am with Bridget...not my place.

[Jenniferathome]

Nadine, I think this is a one way trip. Short of growing a beard, my wife can't even get to the edge of masculine, regardless what she does. Men doing something feminine is like stepping into the wading pool. A little bit and you're all in. For woman, it would be like going into the Mariana Trench.

[Michelle colson]

I would never tell my wife how to dress or wear makeup ect. I May make helpful suggestions for her while we're out shopping though. I'm lucky to have a pretty feminine wife that likes to dress nice but also doesn't mind getting dirty on the weekends, hiking or mountain biking ect.

[Judith96a]

I gotta confess to not liking my wife cutting her hair to anything remotely approaching "short"! In practice it's not a serious issue because it's not her style but...
We do have a running joke that the cats don't recognise her when she wears a skirt / dress (e.g. Hey kittens, mummy has legs after all!)

[Kate Simmons]

You have to understand the two basic rules when it comes to women Hon:

Rule # 1: Your woman is never wrong.

Rule # 2: If your woman is wrong, see rule # 1.

Simple, right? :battingeyelashes::)

[Sarah Beth]

I have made suggestions about various things to my wife over the years but I never insisted on anything. My biggest thing has always been about the length of her hair I like really long and she for years wouldn't wear it that way because she said it was hassled with it long and doing what she had to do to get ready for work. What she wears is up to her, although she does at times ask my oppinion.

There were times when I would have liked it if she had worn makeup more but she always had allergy problems and never could wear most makeup anyway. For the most part I have been happy about that too, not having to wait for her to put on makeup the woman can be slow enought getting ready (LOL).

[audreyinalbany]

I think that my wife LOVES it when I do things that are traditionally considered 'feminine,' such as clean the house or have dinner ready when she gets home,or make sure the laundry gets done. But she most definitely doesn't' want me looking like a woman when I do them.

[MarisaRose.]

This is a great post!! If my wife could do anything more than wearing pants to be masculine, she would and then say, "right back at ya baby" which I gotta admit would hang me up for a second. But I've never even had an inkling to request, require or insist she dress or appear in a particular manor, (she's a very attractive lady in her own right.)She's my wife and I want to keep it that way? She'll tweak my male wardrobe without hesitation and once in a blue moon comment on my female wardrobe, and that's just fine with me.

[Vickie_CDTV]

You're right, it can be rather hypocritical in a sense. I wonder how women would feel if a man insisted on his wife shaving her legs or armpits when she did not want to ("patriarchal sexist pig! This isn't the 50s!") versus a woman telling her husband he can't shave his legs ("Of course she objects, she married a man!")

To me, it is one's own body and they can do with it as they see fit. I may want my SO to shave her legs, I may not want her to buzz the hair on her head off, but ultimately if I don't like it tough rocks, it is attached to her and it makes it her choice.

(I won't lie and say I didn't have my preferences, but I would have never dared to tell Old Lady what she "can" and "can't wear" or "could" and "could not" do, that would not have lasted a nanosecond!)

[Nadine Spirit]

Nadine, I think this is a one way trip. Short of growing a beard, my wife can't even get to the edge of masculine, regardless what she does. Men doing something feminine is like stepping into the wading pool. A little bit and you're all in.

Once upon a time little things that women did, like wearing pants, was seen as being masculine. No more though, why? Because of their insistence that it does not make them any less of a woman to simply wear pants, or not wear makeup, or have short hair or????

Oh and funny story from today at work. Someone who works with my wife said to her, "your husband does not look like how I thought he would." My wife said "well how did you think he would look?" The coworker replied "Oh, I dunno, maybe bigger and with a big hairy beard or something." My wife said "Yeah he does lots of feminine things, like painting his finger nails and wearing women's jewelry, but he is still uber masculine huh?" The coworker replied "Yeah he is."

So maybe once upon a time it was like stepping into a wading pool, but from my personal experiences times are a changing!

And maybe that is where these thoughts originated from for me. Just because I do lots of things that are traditionally feminine, my wife does not see me as any less of a man. It is kind of odd for me to read about GGs on this board who are concerned about loosing sight of their manly man. I mean from my own wife describing me as "uber masculine," wow, how much more masculine could I get? Even with everything fem that I do, somehow I am still her uber masculine man.

Maybe I am just doing this whole cross dressing thing wrong! Ha-Ha!

[Amanda L.]

Hi Nadine
I think you are absolutely right about this. Whilst my wife is free to choose how she presents her femininity she is also free to be as raucous as she likes when watching football or actively follow male dominated sports. Don't get me wrong there is nothing wrong with a woman being passionate about following sport, my point is the she is free to move between the two domains of what is socially acceptable for both males and females.
As men we are expected to stay within the confines of 'Manworld' and if we venture into 'Girlworld' well eyebrows get raised.
My wife had great taste in clothes and used to get her nails done regularly. Over the last few years she stopped getting them done and seems to have opted for a simpler wardrobe style, still her choice, no issue. I'd like her to look more feminine but will not say anything for fear of hurting her feelings.
I mistakenly told her once that I thought she was too mannish with the way she followed sports. I don't think she ever forgave me for that, it was how she was brought up.
Well maybe this is why I like to frock up.
Amanda

[Yoshisaur]

I don't really mind if my girlfriend wears pants or not wear makeup or shave hers legs, Yeah I think she looks a lot better with makeup and girly clothes, but I wouldn't love her any less if she decided to be more masculine. As for me though it seems like i'm expected to be masculine, and i'm fine with that for now since i'm very in the closet about my CDing

[MatildaJ.]

Once upon a time little things that women did, like wearing pants, was seen as being masculine. No more though, why? Because of their insistence that it does not make them any less of a woman to simply wear pants, or not wear makeup, or have short hair or????

Right. Women worked together to change social expectations. It was hard on the first women, and people (both men and women) made their lives hell. But they persevered and persuaded other women to join them, and over time they changed society.

Similarly, those of you who bend gender norms are changing society. In the last fifty years it has become more acceptable for men to have long hair, to have first one and now both ears pierced, to shave their legs, and carry a purse. That's more true in some regions than in others, of course. (For women too, it was easier to challenge social conventions in big cities first, and women in the suburbs and rural areas took a long time to adopt the new approach.)

[Teresa]

Nadine,
The point about shaving is a little unfair because as I've said before my wife's family have little or no body hair, my son takes after them and has no chest hair but no one calls them effeminate !!

Recently I told my wife that I sleep better wearing a nightie, to keep her happy under my PJs ! The other night I thought to hell with this, I took my PJs off ! I make no comment at all to what she wears in bed, she can wear anything and I would say nothing, in fact I hate her PJs !!

The other point is as you say do we ever comment on our partner doing something that wasn't very feminine ? My wife doesn't appear to be 100% happy with me doing the house hold chores maybe because she thinks I'm doing them dressed ! At least she comes home to a clean house a meal on the table and the washing cleaned, dried and ironed !

[cdtraveler]

Doesn't cut both ways. Men are put into a box pretty early on. Women 7sed to have s8milar constraints but that has changed a lot s8nce the feminist movement particularly as it relates to clothing and activities and behavior. Some of the reasons why I spent so much wasted time hiding things about me that we simply a natural part of me. What a waste! Some new I'm seeking to move the dial a bit. Still can't forget 8 projected one thing f9r along time and my SO deserves time to be eased into seeing my fem side.

[Amanda L.]

Right. Women worked together to change social expectations. It was hard on the first women, and people (both men and women) made their lives hell. But they persevered and persuaded other women to join them, and over time they changed society.

Similarly, those of you who bend gender norms are changing society. In the last fifty years it has become more acceptable for men to have long hair, to have first one and now both ears pierced, to shave their legs, and carry a purse. That's more true in some regions than in others, of course. (For women too, it was easier to challenge social conventions in big cities first, and women in the suburbs and rural areas took a long time to adopt the new approach.)

I think Jess makes a good point to remind us of a world that has changed to accept the struggles that women fought hard for. Do we tend to adopt a "woe is me mentality" towards the social bias that exists? I mean no offence with this or am trying to be argumentative its just that there are a lot of posts that deal with the inequality of men's right to present as they want when women have greater choice.
Maybe we need to take a leaf out of the Suffragettes book. Or is the issue rooted in the balance of power?
Just saying
Amanda

[Marcelle]

Hi Nadine,

This is a fair observation and though I am not in a DADT relationship I would still like to wade in if I may. What you are alluding to is one sidedness in this creation of boundaries/rules/regulations or whatever negotiated during the early phase of discovery. I am a firm believer of mutually agreed upon boundaries. Specifically, if one party is not comfortable with it then an accord needs to be reached and if one party has to give up a bit of ground then the contract (written or verbal) needs to ensure that this particular boundary is open for renegotiation at a later date. Some here will say it is important to accept all conditions sight unseen in order to have peace. However IMHO this implies you have done something bad and now have to acquiesce in order to gain acceptance and be welcomed back as a good person . . . as if all the loving and caring things you may have done in the past are wiped out and now you need to tow the line. If you can accept those conditions and are happy then so be it. However, I have seen time again where people have promised to adhere to a boundary and then creep up to it and try to pass only to end up in a tailspin.

No party, the SO or the CDer should have the right to dictate terms . . . this is not a war negotiating surrender terms but a partnership trying to make sense of a new development. If one party cannot abide by it then perhaps exit visas are the best option. But if you can come to mutual terms it will be a better experience.

Hugs

Isha

[Tina_gm]

I don't have enough hair on my head to grow long. If I did, it might happen. My nails are a little long, but not to the point of omg that man has long nails. And I shave my legs. My wife has never told me I had to stop shaving or I had to cut my nails. The nails she is not thrilled about, but has never said you have to cut them. I have said things to my wife before about what I prefer, but have also never told her she had to do this or that. I have told her that if she stopped shaving and cut her hair real short (mens style) I would not leave her, but I would not prefer it, so its all fair. I limit my nail growth because A. my wife does not like me with real long nails, and B. I don't want to be noticed because of it. If both A and B were not an issue, they would be longer. I limit myself.

[Nadine Spirit]

I mean no offence with this or am trying to be argumentative its just that there are a lot of posts that deal with the inequality of men's right to present as they want when women have greater choice.

This is an excellent side point in this discussion. Women have fought hard for their right to appear however they want to. This has not always been popular with either gender. I think that nowadays we are experiencing the exact same thing with men. But a big difference as I see it is, many men do these non-traditional things, but we are so ashamed of our own behaviors that we refuse to allow others to see it. We hide them from everyone. Without publicly standing up for our rights we will never change the public's perceptions. For me, I know I have changed many people's opinions. While I am not 100% out with my cross dressing, I am out 100% with my gender non conforming. For example, I am at work right now, and here are my nails:

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[UNDERDRESSER]

This is one of those times when each situation needs to be assessed on an individual basis. If I hadn't told my GF before we moved in together, I could have understood her being uncomfortable seeing any aspect of femininity, assuming that bothered her, and she would have had a case for objecting. As I did tell her, and she had seen it, her telling me now, would be unfair. Similarly, me telling her that she should put on a skirt more often, is not going to fly, nor should it. When something changes in a relationship, you both have to work out where the changes leave you, and whether they are something you can accept. If the male starts to become a bit more girly, and the female objects, well fine, but she might not have such a strong case if his changes are comparatively minor, when she has completely stopped taking care of her appearance and become a saggy pant wearing frump when before marriage, she was always looking like a million dollars. Gotta look at the whole picture.

Women these days have a lot more freedom to behave in ways that weren't considered "proper" a few decades ago. Still a long way to go, and the princessification of girls is too deeply embedded to be done away with overnight. Men have even further to go to break out of the "stoic, unemotional" straitjacket we have been forced into for so long. I consider myself fortunate in my GF, and in my work environment that I have a lot more freedom than most in that regard.

[Kate T]

This is an excellent side point in this discussion. Women have fought hard for their right to appear however they want to. This has not always been popular with either gender. I think that nowadays we are experiencing the exact same thing with men. But a big difference as I see it is, many men do these non-traditional things, but we are so ashamed of our own behaviors that we refuse to allow others to see it. We hide them from everyone.

Yes and no. Women do still hide some things. My wife will not wear a skirt out if her legs need waxing. Her choice or social expectation and pressure? How many women do you see at formal functions wearing a suit and tie? If they do they are judged as butch or lesbian.

I think that there is less social stigma for women to wear a larger variety of clothes HOWEVER I do think there is still just as much social stigma for women to express a masculine gender. The two are not directly correlated.

[suchacutie]

To the point of the op, even my very supportive wife has some "male things she really wants maintained, but they are so few it is totally not a problem...but...in another life I could never have a relationship with a women who was not open to a dialogue about these issues and compromise on both sides. My wife is very conscious of my likes and dislikesIin her gender presentation. It is a two way street.

[Nadine Spirit]

To Adina

Yeah but what was once considered masculine for a woman to do has changed over time while for men it has remained rather static. I think this has been due to how men and women have handled their desires. Women stand up for themselves and stick together much better than men do.

[JocelynRenee]

This is instantly one of my all-time favorite threads. Many great points have been made and I agree that we tend to overlook the fact that it took many years for society to move to the point where it became "acceptable" for women to behave in a traditionally masculine way. Change for us will absolutely require time and someone to lead the way.

There's more to it than that, though, because part of the problem is simply that it is more acceptable to behave like a boy than it is to behave like a girl. Boys are strong; girls are weak. Girl behaving like a boy? That's a step up. Boy behaving like a girl is a step down.

Sadly, our culture inculcates this belief at a very young age - in both girls and boys. Just take a look at the #LikeAGirl campaign by Always and the filmmaker Lauren Greenfield. It's shocking and sad how our girls view themselves. We've got to stop this, and frankly, manning up and putting on a dress is a great way to start breaking this cycle. LOL

[sometimes_miss]

This got me thinking this morning; I wonder does it go both ways? Are any of you that have SOs who tell you how they want you to dress and behave, do you also get to tell them how they get to dress and behave? That maybe you want them to do things that are considered to be traditionally more feminine and that you do not want to see them do things that are traditionally considered to be masculine.
Oddly enough, back in the 90's my ex and I had this very discussion with our therapist. Of course, both therapist and ex are women, and adhered to the timeless camaraderie of women both saying that men had defined what was appropriate behavior for women for many generations, and how did I like it now that the tables were turned? Never anything being said about what was right, or fair: Only that it was now the women's turn to decide what men were allowed to be, and do. It was just such a perfect example of how the women's rights movement was and is never about fairness, it's about advancing the rights of what women want over anything that men want. When I brought up this fact, of course both immediately went back to their argument that I was just experiencing what women had gone through in the past; they refused to address the issue of what is right, and fair, for both sexes. And I see that in the past twenty years, absolutely nothing has changed. And I don't expect it to in my lifetime.

[Kate T]

Yeah but what was once considered masculine for a woman to do has changed over time while for men it has remained rather static. I think this has been due to how men and women have handled their desires. Women stand up for themselves and stick together much better than men do.
Ish. Certainly in western culture the traditional masculine "breadwinner" role who arrives home from work and watches the news while his wife brings him dinner and the kids have nothing to do with him is (thankfully!) no longer the case. Fathers participate heavily in child rearing and this is not only socially accepted but even applauded in many areas of society.

I agree with you that ON AVERAGE women tend to be more empathic and this leads them to consider the struggles of others and perhaps work better in a group as there doesn't tend to be a clash of ego's. My wife and I had this discussion a while ago and agreed there is a tendency for women to prioritise family over ideals, whereas men tend to prioritise ideals over family. It's not necessarily that one way is right or better. It does tend to mean that history focuses on men more because history tends to be the story of ideals rather than the story of relationships.

[Jenniferathome]

... How many women do you see at formal functions wearing a suit and tie? ...

Well, mostly zero. You know why? Because they think it would look stupid! The same reason you don't see men wearing gowns at that same function. They don't want to. Now, that aside, it is equally true that a woman wearing suit will be less offensive than a man wearing a gown.

[Jamie001]

Well, mostly zero. You know why? Because they think it would look stupid! The same reason you don't see men wearing gowns at that same function. They don't want to. Now, that aside, it is equally true that a woman wearing suit will be less offensive than a man wearing a gown.

I am not sure about this. Think back several years ago. I believe that a woman was hosting the Oscars and that she was dressed in a man's suit. I'm sure it wasn't Ellen Degeneres. Who am I thinking of?

[SO1Adam12]

I am not sure about this. Think back several years ago. I believe that a woman was hosting the Oscars and that she was dressed in a man's suit. I'm sure it wasn't Ellen Degeneres. Who am I thinking of?

I believe it was Ellen who, btw had just come out as a lesbian and was known for not dressing "girlie". The Press is responsible for making "will she or won't she weaar a dress" a big deal. I don't believe for a minute anyone was offended that she wore pants.

It is true that it is easier for women to wear men's style or out and out men's clothing without question. The difference being, we are not trying to pass as a man. Men's clothing is far more comfortable. My ex had a flannel shirt I loved to wear with a pair of yoga pants and a tank top on rainy/shilly days. There are articles of clothing out there that lean a bit more to the feminine side. When skinny jeans first came out, lots of teenaged boys bought them in the Junior's Dept. because they said they fit better (especially when you want to wear them halfway down your butt).

I can tell you the reason most men don't feel comfortable wearing feminine clothing - HOMOPHOBIA! The assumption among the general public is that men who WANT to wear women's clothing are gay and don't want to be perceived as gay and I include myself in that group up until my SO came out as a CDer to me. To further that, a guy trying to pass as a woman most certainly must be trying to trick straight men into kinky sex. Of course this is not how every straight, non-CDing man thinks, but I believe most do.

As for women in men's clothing, there are 3 women just within my working world who are definite CDers. One is openly a lesbian and presents completely male all the time including name. Another I am not sure is a lesbian and uses her female name and refers to herself as "Miss" to people. One is young and admits she is not sure if she is a lesbian or not and dresses like a 12 year old boy, skateboard and all. Are the rest of the women threatened by them...maybe a few. There was some whispering for a while but then it went away. I'm not sure why this is the case but I think it falls in line with it being more "acceptable" for women to experiment their sexuality. Let's face it, I haven't met a straight man yet who didn't fantasize about his wife/girlfriend having sex with another woman.

[Jenniferathome]

I am not sure about this. Think back several years ago. I believe that a woman was hosting the Oscars and that she was dressed in a man's suit. I'm sure it wasn't Ellen Degeneres. Who am I thinking of?

Well, if your one example is one woman (Ellen) at the Oscars, then I think my answer of "mostly zero" qualifies pretty well.

[LilSissyStevie]

You're probably thinking of Anne Hathaway.

[Alice Torn]

It seems like boys are born and put into a shirt and pants, and a straight jacket, and girls are born, and put into a princess outfit with wings.

[Beverley Sims]

My wife does not tell me how to dress although she prefers male dress on me.
I have a bit of a sticking point dressed as a woman in so much as she does not like me wearing a wig.

Everything else is fine....
So I don't know.

[AnnaBMarie]

The boundaries between masculine and feminine are certainly fuzzier than they were a few years ago, but still some traditions are firmly entrenched. I can drive a high performance car at 130 MPH on the track, fell trees with a chain saw, and play rugged sports, but put on a bra and the world spins off its axis. What I wouldn't give to be Danica Patrick.