Bigotry and hatred in the LGBT community

[Promethea]

Recently I've been thinking about (and experiencing some) bigotry from within the LGBT community.

The other day, I can't remember how, I ended up opreading a thread on a non CD forum, where someone started to talk about maskers (CDers who wear rubber masks with feminine features, and quite often full body suits). The resident expert offered a link to a documentary featuring our very own and loved Docrobbysherry, (and a couple other maskers, unfortunately I couldn't watch the video then and now I don't know how to find it), and said that is what a crossdresser is, that they dressed to have fun, and that crossdressers were hated by the trans community.

That person wasn't, for what I know, trans nor LGBT in any way, and her ignorance is shown by her thinking that masking and crossdressing are synonims, as well as generalizing over motivations, but... where did she get that idea. My only interaction with CDers is on this forum, but I think CDers and trans* are the closest, so how can we hate each other.

But then, we are the forgotten ones from the fight for rights. For years the struggle has been about gay people, and nobody has thought of us, being as we were on the margins of society. Even today, a lot of gay and lesbian people don't see us as equals.

Case in point, some of my interactions with a lesbian young lady that is staying for a few weeks at the inn where I am working.

When she first came here and rang the bell I was sitting in the hall. As I got up and walked away to get the keys, I could hear her say "what the... A skirt?".
That evening we had a conversation, and the subject of my transition came up. She told me "oh, but you make such a handsome guy!". My venomous reply was "and you're so pretty, you could get yourself a nice boyfriend". The look on her face was priceless, it wasn't the first time she had heard that.

i thought she had understood, but last night her mother was visiting and she referred to me as "he" when introducing me to her. I know her mother is a bigot, and while she recently came out to her she still hasn't told her that she's living with her girlfriend, but... It's her mom, not mine, don't heteronormalize me! If she wants to hide, so be it, but I wear my transgenderism on my face everyday.

[arbon]

People are different and the groups are all very different, so there is and will continue to be a lot of misunderstanding.

It is true that a lot of transsexuals do not like crossdressers, and lot of Gay and lesbians do not like transsexuals or crossdressers, and a lot of hetro crossdressers stay safely hidden in their closets and have zero connection the LGBT world. Thats life.



But then, we are the forgotten ones from the fight for rights.

Are you referring to crossdressers or transsexuals? I think on the trans side we have been doing pretty good in that regard.

[RADER]

Every body walks a different road; no two people do it the same way.
Trans,verse Cross dressers verse Gay or Lesbians, all think that their way
is the way of the future. If people in general just had a little more respect for each
other, life would be better off in general. We all have to be comfortable inside our own bodies.
The problem that some do not know what they are looking fore and are afraid of
criticisms from others.
Rader

[I Am Paula]

My personal experiences are that the trans population is only grudgingly accepted among LGB. The only transphobic remarks I've ever gotten were from lesbians in gay bars.
As far as trans acceptance of C.D's, I've not seen anything remarkable. My support/social group allows any kind of member, and we all have something to share. Years ago I belonged to a group that split itself up into trans, and C.D. Although at the time I thought of myself as C.D. I found their group spent too much time discussing the exterior, clothing, hair removal, etc. I moved over to the trans side of the room, where the conversation was about politics, mental health, Doctors, drugs and the like. There was a difference between the two camps, but they got along fine. Later, I determined I was (and am) trans, so that was probably why my comfort was with them.

[Rachel Smith]

Simply put by Rodney King I believe, "can't we all just get along".

[Annaliese]

Good for you she did not get it, but you tried, Bigotry, is everywhere, with in all committees, agents all other committees. We need to fight it, the world is getting smaller, all the time. I am glad you are one that is fighting agent it.

[Rachelakld]

we had a well respected TS in our Parliament, became a well respected Mayoress. She did the hard years, when only male or females were allowed to exist, she was a big influence in changing the lifestyles of gays & lesbians (with the help of 2 other way out fun lesbians, aka, the much loved "Topp Twins").
I suppose after she changed herself, she then decided to get out and change our world - and she did.

[Rianna Humble]

You can find bigots and hatred in any community if you look hard enough, but my experience has been very different to the OP. I find a great deal of acceptance and friendship from people who are L, G or B. Within my union, the LGB members of the equalities committee actively sought out people to represent the T part of the name of the committee. They organised training for other Equalities reps with a specific emphasis on supporting trans* folk.

On the other hand, I have heard a great deal of anti LGB rhetoric from trans* people both here and in the physical community.

[Rogina B]

Acceptance[generally] gets acceptance.Especially once they see that you are genuine in that you wish to be their friend.Most people I have met realize that we are all from the same playground...

[Michelle789]

I have generally found the L, G, and B to be very supportive of us, at least at MCC where I go to church. I have found the T to be mostly supportive, but there is hatred from within the T. Mostly people who are jealous of other T's for being more passable, younger, or better looking. And from other T's who think they're better because they're more passable, or more trannier than thou. The biggest problem I find from within the T community is the fact that it is very easy to attract toxic T's. I think this is because the T community is so small that we when there is a group of T's, you're going to find the toxic ones among the mentally and spiritually healthy ones. Among cis groups, which are larger than the T, the toxic ones stick together and the healthy ones stick together, so it's a lot harder to constantly attract the toxic ones among accepting cis people. In fact, with cis people, it is generally the toxic ones who are transphobic and the healthy ones who accept us, so if we find accepting cis people, they're probably good to have as friends.

[LeaP]

Oh, the animus toward trans people is well-rooted in the gay community, and there's a looonnnggg history behind it. If you would like to read a short version hitting some of the highlight themes, read this:

http://transgriot.blogspot.com/2007/10/why-transgender-community-hates-hrc.html

That doesn't mean that there isn't social acceptance locally, or face-to-face, but it does speak to entrenched cultural bias. Anti-trans bias exists, just as racism, sexism, and other types of entrenched biases exist. You need look no further than this forum ... forget the CDs and gender variant ... most TS discover it in themselves on the way to self-acceptance. Lots find it in their SOs and family, their work environment, their medical providers, etc.

The very worst anti-trans sentiment can be found in segments of the gay community, including several lesbian subgroups and among some gay activists who regard trans people as a political liability. I think it's only matched by some of the anti-trans rhetoric of the religious hate groups. That's added to the general cisgender ignorance and bias that exists everywhere (including among CDs and, to a lesser extent, gender-variant people). I don't think CDs and gender variant people necessarily are more bigoted toward transsexuals, nor transsexuals toward them. Rather, I think our proximity causes a level of constant irritation on a few themes, which is a different problem.

Don't confuse casual and transitory social acceptance and manners with lack of bigotry. They can co-exist quite nicely.

[flatlander_48]

Everybody has struggles and everybody has scars. The thing is, not everyones stuggles and scars are visible. The problem is when we believe, just because we don't see struggles and scars, that they don't exist...

[Xrys]

My father once told me that every orchard has it's bad apples, and likewise every group will have a few a-holes. The world has plenty of them scattered about, and no matter where you are, you can always run into one. Dealing with them is part of life.

Fortunately that number is slowly growing smaller and smaller, and most people I have met within the LGBT community have been cool. There will always be a few who aren't. Haters gonna hate. Sometimes you just gotta shake it off.

Stay strong and keep swinging.

[Nikkilovesdresses]

I encountered open prejudice as a bi-sexual, from a gay man. I only found it remarkable because he was a senior member of an LBGT support organization! Mind you I'm English and he was Irish...

[DebbieL]

It's ironic. Transsexuals are often the first to be persecuted as early as 1st grade.
Often we were the first to be persecuted because we were PERCEIVED as gay teen boys - even before the REAL gays were identified.
Often, we were persecuted even when gays were accepted.
Gay boys always insisted I was gay and just hadn't come out of the closet.
When I WAS finally read - in college - the kids gave me magazines of transvestites - hairy legs and all - being seduced by men.

When I finally got married, I could "pass" as a straight man, because I had a wife and child(ren). Even then, I was too femme to pass.

When I got divorced and started dating, my bisexual girlfriend would bring home lesbian girl friends. They didn't believe I really was a Lesbian until AFTER spending the night with us.

Ironically my bisexual girlfriend(s) were considered a bit "butch". They had big hair, but they were tough, had tempers, and acted more like guys than girls most of the time.

Lesbian women always got really worried that I might steal away their girl-friends who were bisexual. The lesbians were butch and thus gave much of the best of both worlds, but when a bisexual woman saw me, they saw that they could have the best of both worlds the other way.

At one lesbian bar, the lesbian got so jealous she recruited about 6 of her friends to castrate me behind the club. When I heard about it, from the bartender, I asked "do they have some starter fluid for the ether?". Needless to say, the club owner insisted that I stay seated at the bar until they had addressed the situation.

In any crowd of 100 people, there will be one person who will express their hate toward you for being "different".
Doesn't matter whether it's the preacher, the transphobic homosexual, or the jealous lesbian.
That one person, usually expressing self-hate, will try to recruit others to help them express that hate.

Sexual preference is something you can hide until the moment you want to express it.
A transgender identity is something you can't hide even when you want to.
I could wear a suit and I looked more like a girl in a suit than a guy.
I could wear a short sexy skirt to a club, but at 5' 11' in flats, wearing 3 inch heels, with legs like a vegas show girl, I got attention
The problem with being able to stop traffic in New York City on 7th ave, is that people WILL look too closely - and I got read.

Women often mistake us for drag queens, and drag queens often mistake us for wannabes.

On the flip side, bisexuals and transgenders are such a broad spectrum of preference and identity that they are also the largest groups - possibly 1 in 3 people are bisexual and 1 in 3 expresses some form of transgender desire from fetish dressing to public cross-dressing.
When you start considering the combinations - it could make the dance card very complicated.

What do you do with a bisexual transgender?

[Persephone]

The reality is that there is no "LGBT Community," it is simply a tool for political manipulation.

Hugs,
Persephone.

[Nicole Erin]

I don't know why people hassle over dumb stuff.
We each have to live our own lives. Every human in the world is doing the same thing. We are all just trying to make it in life. Trying to pay bills, eat, have a roof over our heads, stay afloat, whatever.

I do not understand why a man would be turned on by another man. But it doesn't matter. It doesn't effect my life. Same with why a woman would be attracted to another woman. But once again - it doesn't effect me in any way.
Unless someone is doing something to impede another person's ability to make it in the world, why would either one care what the other does?
People just hassle over meaningless crap. I do not give two craps if some gay or lesbian person doesn't approve of how I live. I do not feel like I need their acceptance.
Why do some TG even worry about it? The LGB are not stopping us from living as we want.
If you cannot get along with someone, just don;t associate with them.

[Rianna Humble]

Oh, the animus toward trans people is well-rooted in the gay community, and there's a looonnnggg history behind it.
...

That doesn't mean that there isn't social acceptance locally, or face-to-face, but it does speak to entrenched cultural bias.
...
Don't confuse casual and transitory social acceptance and manners with lack of bigotry. They can co-exist quite nicely.

I think you are very wrong to dismiss other people's experience as "casual and transitory social acceptance" merely because it does not support your agenda.
To me this speaks volumes for your personal attitude towards LGB folk.

Your quoted source does you a disservice by conflating Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists with"leadership" of the LGB communities (yes that's right plural). It also contradicts itself by saying that the opposition is concentrated in two geographical areas which it later describes as being the most accepting in your country.

[Cheryl123]

I don't know. I don't think there is such a thing as a LGBT community or a Trans community, unless you are referring to national organizations. There are local advocacy groups, but most gay and trans people I know are not involved in any of these organizations. We all have circles of friends and and common places where we hang-out -- but nothing like a community. When I go out on the town, I tend to prefer gay bars and the only rudeness I've encountered is from a few people who are rude to everybody, and not just to me because I'm trans. I do get curious inquiries but nothing offensive. Maybe I'm naive but I tend to believe if you treat people with respect, most will give you respect in return. I'm personally not involved in a "Trans Community" and most of my friends are neither gay nor trans. At least that's the world I live in.

[Rogina B]

To borrow one of Beth-Locks's terms.."intertrans bitchyness" aptly describes some friction and there is matching "intergay friction"...Not everyone is someone elses cup of tea. However,in statewide Equality organizations,people get along for the common cause of equal rights.Everyone has their own personal thing they are pushing for but realize there is strength in numbers..I speak of Florida where Transequality has had a good year.

[Promethea]

Rianna, don't take me wrong, that's only a small part of my experience, but it is there nevertheless. I feel it's much worse when comments like that come from LGB people than from a straight cis person. They've felt that on their own skin.

And everybody, forgive me for my choice of words, tomato tomahto, replace community with people or whatever word you prefer, the word is not important and you know what I meant.

I don't think there's a generalized hatred towards us from LGB folks (although some exists). My mention of hatred came from the comments on that thread, that surprised me. I can't hate CDers, the ones on this forum were instrumental for me in discovering myself, and I thought I was one of them for years!

The biggest issue in what I've experienced with LGB folks is not hatred, but lack of information/missinformation. "We" need to do something about that.

And in the countries where I have lived, we trans folk are not doing that great. In Uruguay, same sex marriage was approved, with great support from the population; the "parade for moral values" that took place the week after pride parade had about 30 people; two men or two women holding hands in public is a common sight now; and nobody looses their job for coming out as gay.

But the majority of trans women are kicked out from home at a young age, don't finish school and work in prostotution; transmen mimetize as butch lesbians, and those that come out as trans get harassed; four trans women were murdered a couple of years ago, the police didn't do much and on the news most reporters called them transvestites and all of them used male pronouns; comedians still use transexuality as a joke (where what is fun is the "effeminate guy in a dress"); private healthcare companies don't offer support for transition, and in the public healthcare system, the department that used to offer it was shut down, supposedly to reorganize it and improve it, but it's been a couple of years already and there are no news, and some people that were in the middle of the process weren't even notified it would close and were left in the dark and looking like Hedwig. But since LGBs are doing so much better a lot of people (including a lot of LGBs) believe that the work is done. In Argentina, Spain and Brazil it's even worse.

[Kathryn Martin]

I think you are very wrong to dismiss other people's experience as "casual and transitory social acceptance" merely because it does not support your agenda.
To me this speaks volumes for your personal attitude towards LGB folk.

Your quoted source does you a disservice by conflating Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists with"leadership" of the LGB communities (yes that's right plural). It also contradicts itself by saying that the opposition is concentrated in two geographical areas which it later describes as being the most accepting in your country.

I have no idea what you are saying in your first sentence. Much of the social acceptance of people like us is casual and transitory and lacks any kind of analysis of who we really are. Such acceptance exists because it is politically correct and not to show yourself as intolerant. Trans activism in the form practiced currently certainly has made it so.

"Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists" is a term invented by the trans community. I wonder if any of you have actually had real conversations with gender critical radical feminists (which is what they call themselves). It is interesting and might surprise you.

There are biases and bigotry in every community and no one is excepted. Focusing on dialogue instead of naming could easily work in everyone's favor.

[LeaP]

I have no idea what you are saying in your first sentence. Much of the social acceptance of people like us is casual and transitory and lacks any kind of analysis of who we really are. Such acceptance exists because it is politically correct and not to show yourself as intolerant. Trans activism in the form practiced currently certainly has made it so.
...

Precise and correct, Kathryn.

Riann, the blog entry is a neatly encapsulated recap of some of the politics over the years, nothing more (at least to me). The geography mentioned is only relevant from a communities (yes, plural) leadership perspective. The blog post makes that point, it doesn't contradict it! As it happens, I'm from smack in the middle in one of those areas, my family having lived there for 400 years. What passes for acceptance is a complex thing. There is a strong puritanical streak that runs beneath the culture there. While it currently works to support progressive politics, it can - and has - been employed for just the reverse. In fact, the progressiveness exists in a particularly intolerant form itself.

[Michelle.M]

"Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists" is a term invented by the trans community.

I rather doubt that -

http://www.transadvocate.com/terf-what-it-means-and-where-it-came-from_n_13066.htm


I wonder if any of you have actually had real conversations with gender critical radical feminists (which is what they call themselves). It is interesting and might surprise you.

I have, and it was a decidedly unpleasant surprise. This person was so committed to an ideology that facts were merely an inconvenience that threatened the accepted dogma of what was considered to be the established principles of their particular interpretation (an error-filled interpretation, IMO) of Radical Feminism.

When it was over, the conclusion I came to was that the only difference between a TERF and a transphobic religious conservative is that the former gets to sleep in on Sunday morning.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Society evolves. But it does so on its own terms.

Outside of the arrogance of progressive minds that "know better", everybody knows this through experience.

Nobody but a small cadre of activists on both sides cares about this. It signifies almost nothing. Nothing we say here and nothing transgressive activist radical transphobic manhating feminist/lesbian idealogues (:devil: who write books, write blogs and generally just make hay out of simply having the argument) say will matter.

I'm all for activism. We deserve our rights to a good quality of life without fear. But this whole debate is a silly waste of time.
Stick to the basics. Do your best. Thrive. Stick to your guns and don't let the *******s get you down.

Us vs them is always and forever. Animal Farm has it right..

[Judith96a]

The only transphobic remarks I've ever gotten were from lesbians in gay bars.


Funnily, one of the places that I'm most comfortable is in a well known lesbian bar in London. I've never had any even slightly negative remarks there. Online can be a different story!
Just goes to show that YMMV!

[Judith96a]

The reality is that there is no "LGBT Community," it is simply a tool for political manipulation.

Hugs,
Persephone.

You got THAT right!

I think that we're kidding ourselves if we think that 'T' is doing anything within LGBT other than helping to make up the numbers and that we (T) are rather more interested in being part of LGBT than LG&B are in having us! At present we have some usefulness in that we bulk up the numbers. But all that we really have in common with the LGB lobby is that we're the victims of discrimination etc. The L/G Lobby has been pretty successful in making progress towards L&G being perceived as "mainstream" (with B quietly riding their coat tails). The more progress they make in that regard then the greater the danger that we will become the rather awkward relation that no one wants to own up to! Cos we're not going to be "mainstream" anytime soon.

Having said that, I have to acknowledge that the girls who staff and frequent a certain well known lesbian bar in Soho, London are VERY friendly and accepting! I consider it to be a safe and welcoming place.

[Kathryn Martin]

I have, and it was a decidedly unpleasant surprise. This person was so committed to an ideology that facts were merely an inconvenience that threatened the accepted dogma of what was considered to be the established principles of their particular interpretation (an error-filled interpretation, IMO) of Radical Feminism.

I woul;d not consider that to be a real conversation. I have been a member of a gender critical discussion group which includes both radical feminists and persons with a trans background. Interestingly, the fundamental positions with respect to gender are not so far apart. There are always golden calves to be slaughtered on both sides.


Us vs them is always and forever. Animal Farm has it right..

It seems that everyone wants to bite everyone in the ass all of the time ......