times are changing in the schools

[jamie-upstate]

On December 2nd, the Shenendehowa School Board will be voting on whether to allow its high school students to request access to restrooms that correspond with the gender identity that the student exclusively and consistently asserts at school.*
Their request will be approved or denied by the superintendent or designee, along with the applicable building level administrator, based on several criteria.
We welcome you to share your thoughts/opinions on the school's proposal with us.


This is a large school in the capital district of NY

[Karyn Marie]

I work in a school district, and we just had this discussion today. We DO allow the kids to use the restroom of the gender they identify with. We have not had any students in my school use the restroom of their chosen gender, but it is coming. I want to think I am okay with it, but most of the people I work with are not. I worry what the other students will do or say, and will the person be ridiculed.

[Leilani]

I do not think that this is something that should be done. I think that if we, as a society, want to have unisex bathrooms for adults that is okay for discussion but when we begin to have a situation where we allow a boy or girl to use the "opposite" restroom, we are opening a can of worms that need not be dealt with. It seems to me that the percentage of people who question their identity not matching their birth gender is so low that we are putting a larger segment of the population at unease than we are helping. I ascribe to the "the good of the many outweighs the good of the few" philosophy so I think that in the interests of allowing the greater number of students to feel comfortable in these private areas we need to maintain a clear delineation for those who use the facilities. My opinion.

[Rachelakld]

I've 4 daughters and don't like the idea as it will be abused (boys with cameras, fem boys being bullied to install a cameras, or boys who use it being bullied).
If they install unisex, then it becomes "user beware", but I rather have a girls toilet for use for girls who don't want boys peeing on the seat, a seat that my girls won't be scared to sit down on.

[AllieSF]

I am totally in favor with this. I realize that it will take some getting used to, may require modifications over time. However, here we are on this transgender support site saying that we do not support transgender rights. That really confuses me. If the nay sayer's above go out in the real world and expect to be able and use the restrooms of the gender that they present as, how can they not support this? It is much better to start instilling in our youth the concept of embracing diversity versus separating it from the norm, whatever they decide to define that as. Boys with cameras, fem boys (is that bad??), or boys being bullied who may actually abuse this will be extremely rare if it happens at all, and is pure horseshit if one believes that it will happen in the majority of cases. Hell, boys do that now sometimes and probably never get caught. As they say, boys will be boys.

I obviously vote YES.

[Vickie_CDTV]

Making a single user restroom (which could also be used by children with special needs who need assistance using the bathroom) would solve the issue.

[BOBBI G.]

I am curious about the approval/denial system,letters from a certified gender therapist, endo referral stating medical treatment no in use, These type of things. Special ID will be necessary to help the situation, and some one standing as a door person as well. What are requirements for this approval/denial board. Are they really qualified to make these decisions? It is taking place now in some of the elementary schools around the country on a case by case basis, so can middle school and high school be that far behind? Personally, I haven't used the male urinal on over forty years, I will wait for a stall to become available, and am respectful of the facilities I am using, today. And, yes, I am a transgender girl, working toward womanhood.

Bobbi

[mechamoose]

Leilani:

Let me swap over the example for a moment from bathrooms to gyms.

When I was in HS in the 80's (I have not been in one since then.. not that kind of perv) The girls gym had individual changing areas and showers. Stalls with doors. The guys gym showers were a big open area. A big room with shower nozzles around the walls.

My take was a message that girls deserved privacy and modesty, guys were expected to be communal.

If you build these private spaces for private functions, it doesn't matter what happens in the 'lobby'.

- MM

[Promethea]

we are putting a larger segment of the population at unease than we are helping. I ascribe to the "the good of the many outweighs the good of the few" philosophy

It's not the good of the many, the "unease" a handful may experience comes from unjustified fear, product of misinformation and lack of education. That education is the responsibility of the schools, and giving it to them will be for the good of all.





If they install unisex, then it becomes "user beware", but I rather have a girls toilet for use for girls who don't want boys peeing on the seat, a seat that my girls won't be scared to sit down on.

I take it you've never been to a women restroom. Women don't sit down, they hover, because the seats are all peed on, because women don't sit down, the hover, because the seats are all peed on, because women don't sit down... And like this all the way to the bing bang.




However, here we are on this transgender support site saying that we do not support transgender rights. That really confuses me.

It's not really a trangender support site, it's a crosdressers support site with a section for trangender people, and we're not in that section... The majority of members are not TG, and a portion of them don't understand what we go through and don't even "approve" of us.

[Claire Cook]

I do think that "the times they are a'changin'". I hope the school board makes the correct decision that students who identify and present as the opposite gender be allowed to use the appropriate rest room. Locker rooms, however, might be a different issue.

[NicoleScott]

Restrooms have been built to accommodate a user's sex. Male restrooms have stalls and urinals. Female restrooms have more stalls and no urinals. This has worked for a long time. Why, suddenly, why a person's gender identity (rather than his/her sex) be what determines which restroom to use? A MtF can go into a men's room stall, lock the door, and sit down to pee. Oh, that makes him/her uncomfortable. So what if a MtF using the women's restroom makes some women uncomfortable. Too bad, right?
A transgendered person's state of mind comfort must be accommodated, but the discomfort of others? Well, get over it, right?
I agree with Leilani (Post#3) "the good of the many..." I believe in "reasonable accommodation": providing restroom facilities for the gender non-conforming, without negatively affecting the majority.
As much as I am for accommodating the minority, I still believe that restroom assignments based on sex is more appropriate than based on gender identity. But, I'm pleased that the school board used the language "gender identity that the student exclusively and consistently asserts at school."
Maybe all restroom door signs should say only "RESTROOM". That would make a few people happy, at the expense of all the others, of course.

[Stephanie47]

When I go to a mall I see unisex bathrooms. Well, they are billed as family friendly bathrooms with changing tables. That setup is great for a mom with a little boy. The same for a guy with his daughter. The problem with allowing nature's assigned gender go to the opposite gender's bathroom is the total lack of maturity among kids and the probability of violations of privacy and verbal and/or physical abuse. It is also expensive to retrofit schools to accommodate one r two students. I've read of one solution where the child is allowed to use the teacher/administrative restroom of their choice.

There has been issues of transgendered adult men being allowed to use the locker rooms of females. This has been very upsetting for many very young girls and their parents.

[larry07]

It seems a no brainer to me. Of course kids (and adults) should use the restroom assigned to the gender that they present as and identify as. Details of their anatomy are nobody else's business. Imagine the possibility for problems if a genetic male who identified and dressed as a girl were forced to use the boys restroom.

[Beverley Sims]

Applied sensibly I think it would work well.

Do you know any sensible teenage children?

On the other side of the coin a single unisex bathroom for those who feel strongly about it may be a solution.

Boys will be boys and girls will be girls.

Leave them with separate restrooms and those that choose may use the single alternative accommodation made available.

Bullying remains supreme in schools and those that are different are ostracised.

Just stand in the mall dressed in drag at three o'clock in the afternoon. :)

We have all talked about it.

[AllieSF]

It's not really a transgender support site, it's a crossdressers support site with a section for transgender people, and we're not in that section... The majority of members are not TG, and a portion of them don't understand what we go through and don't even "approve" of us.

My comment is based on the definition for Transgender that is used on this site. That is, the term "transgender" is the umbrella term that all the rest fall under from crossdresser to transvestite to transsexual and probably a few other terms not commonly used. I do understand that not all here and in the outside world are in agreement with this definition, and that is fine with me. I specifically used that word for its all inclusive meaning, and this site offers support to everyone under that umbrella.

California introduced that state wide right of use of restroom and locker rooms based on the student's gender orientation last year. Controversial, yes, but let's see what happens over the long term.

[Eryn]

California has had open bathroom usage in schools for some time. No permissions, no review by a "gender assignment board," no nothing. The student simply uses the restroom that they feel matches their gender.

We haven't seen any repercussions from this except those of overzealous "concerned parents" and administrators who dwell on wild "what if" scenarios. No cameras, no gangs of boys invading the girls' room, no problem at all to speak of.

Nothing that a transgender girl can do would hold a candle to what GG girls already do to each other anyway!

[Marcelle]

Wow . . . interesting vote and very interesting replies.

So for those who are CD and don't agree but go out . . . say you were out and about and all of a sudden the call of nature overtook you and holding it is not an option. You look around and there are no "unisex/family" restrooms available what do you do? I tend to agree that a person should use the bathroom of the gender they present (adult or youth). So these young males who identify and present female are suppose to go in the "boys" restroom and risk being beaten/bullied or worse. Is that your contention?

One of my early forays out I took the mindset that I was a guy so I should use the "mens" restroom regardless of how I was presenting and if it was not for the fact that a security guard walked in a very irate couple of dudes ready to do bodily harm . . . well let's just say I don't use the "mens" when I am Isha anymore.

In Canada a Bill was trying to be passed which would enshrine TG rights in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. It was quickly dubbed the "bathroom bill" by those opposed so they could whip up peoples fear through ignorance by implying that allowing TG persons rights means that women will be attacked in bathrooms by men pretending to be women. Pure and utter nonsense. In the case of the High School students I am fairly certain that to use the bathroom of the opposite "birth gender" it would be a little more stringent than "Bobby Quarterback" deciding today he is a girl so he can spy on the girls. I am assuming the individual would be self-identified TG. Can they be bullied into putting a camera into the girls restroom? I suppose but then again, it is just as likely boys might sneak into the girls restrooms after hours and place cameras in there.

Hugs

Isha

[Tracii G]

Several single unisex bathrooms I think is a better idea that way everyone gets what they want.

[mechamoose]

Isha:

If you are presenting like a woman, I can't imagine why you would risk your safety be going into a Men's loo.

WHO KNOWS what bits dangle into the bowl behind that door?

Live who you are and act accordingly, that is my take.

- MM

[Lorileah]

I think that if we, as a society, want to have unisex bathrooms for adults that is okay for discussion but when we begin to have a situation where we allow a boy or girl to use the "opposite" restroom, we are opening a can of worms that need not be dealt with. OK when do they become adults?16? 18? 21? Where is that line in the sand. And the argument against that idea is that 6-7-8 year old kids are not sexually active and by allowing them the use of unisex restrooms, they grow up thinking it isn't a sexual thing.
It seems to me that the percentage of people who question their identity not matching their birth gender is so low that we are putting a larger segment of the population at unease than we are helping. Really BAD analogy. Your saying that we should not accommodate a small minority over the majority. Welcome to 1950's Southern US. "Separate but equal"
I ascribe to the "the good of the many outweighs the good of the few" philosophy so I think that in the interests of allowing the greater number of students to feel comfortable in these private areas we need to maintain a clear delineation for those who use the facilities. thus sayeth every white male in Alabama in 1959. I understand it is your opinion and you are welcome to it but there are little flaws that I don't think you have considered. Step back and put yourself into a situation where you are marginalized and treated as different or less. Hard to do. Say 90% of the population isn't like you so they say "Hey you can't do this or that" but you want to do whatever it is. Using a restroom maybe.





It's not really a trangender support site, it's a crosdressers support site with a section for trangender people, and we're not in that section... The majority of members are not TG, and a portion of them don't understand what we go through and don't even "approve" of us.

Um...no. It i a site for the support of everyone. It is a Transgender site with sections for transsexuals and crossdressers (as well as Spouses an transmen) Also (as noted later here) transgender is crossdressers.. This is why it is IMPORTANT that we all use the same definitions. So I assume you are TS (which is part of being TG) and I agree we can't skitter off and play male when we are being discriminated against


Restrooms have been built to accommodate a user's sex. Male restrooms have stalls and urinals. Female restrooms have more stalls and no urinals. Really? so if we um...eliminate the urinals it becomes a women's restroom? Do you have a urinal in your house? Just asking (I actually have a friend who does but amazingly his wife uses the same restroom...:idontknow:
This has worked for a long time. Why, suddenly, why a person's gender identity (rather than his/her sex) be what determines which restroom to use? Gee segregated lunch counters worked a long time too. Women not voting seemed to work well. We are evolving as the human race right? I mean a woman could be president soon...
A MtF can go into a men's room stall, lock the door, and sit down to pee. Oh, that makes him/her uncomfortable. and upon exiting they can and do get harassed and threatened and sometimes even assaulted because of their appearance
So what if a MtF using the women's restroom makes some women uncomfortable. Too bad, right? I have not found that at all. I know it happens but usually no one cares. In fact women seem to be at ease when I am there using the mirror or washing afterward. I don't think any have ever been afraid when I am in a stall. Certainly I don't know of any reports where a TG was beaten or assaulted by women.

These are all straw arguments that are easily dispelled by education and eliminating falsehoods. That if we are to believe we are actually evolving into a more civilized world, we need to eliminate the hurdles. I have one silly question...when you send your son into a men's room do you ever consider that they may be assaulted? If so what do you do? If you send your daughter into a women's room do you fear the same? Less so. Why? Because we have educated our son's (and the men they become) to think of elimination as a sexual thing when it is a bodily function. That trying to cop a look at panties (really guys? why?) or a breast (which in 99% of the cases women how in a restroom anyway) is a sexual turn on. We instill THAT our boys. What do we instill into the girls? That all boys are perverts. Show of hands here, how many men (which as I understand a great number of CDs consider themselves) have EVER thought about going into a women's restroom for sexual purposes? Straw argument. You know the earth is flat too right? I have been in men's rooms when women come in and use the stalls. No one freaked out. Amazing and I bet that those women just came in to catch a gander of guy's stuff. Ever been to Paris? They used to pee in little metal things on the street...no one died that I know.

Do you think a little sign on the door is enough to keep a pervert out? Yeah it probably does because the pervert is a law abiding citizen who follows all the...uh huh. Weak arguments against this.

[Marcelle]

Isha:

If you are presenting like a woman, I can't imagine why you would risk your safety be going into a Men's loo.

WHO KNOWS what bits dangle into the bowl behind that door?

Live who you are and act accordingly, that is my take.

- MM

Hi MM,

That was the moral of my tale. Some here believe that it is better for these young TGs to use their "gender birth" restroom vice the gender they present. If they do, it is likely they will get harassed or worse.

Hugs

Isha

[Katey888]

Soooo.... Lori's dealt with all the individual niggles very thoroughly, I'd say... :D

I think it's simple:

If a country, a state, a school board - and ultimately a society - accepts that some of us (including legal minors) are TG who have a preferential gender presentation, then it is an absurdity not to let them use the restroom that aligns with their preferred presentation if no unisex restrooms are available. Of course, one lad dressing on Halloween does not make them TG... the important criteria there is that it's "the gender identity that the student exclusively and consistently asserts at school."

You'd let TG teenagers present as female (or vice versa) and then insist they use the boys..? Hypocrisy...!

And you don't mean to tell me that nobody else is aware of other males going into the girls loos at school as a dare?? It happens already - and it still wouldn't be right in those circumstances..

I would say a society with institutions that adopts these views is maturing. :clap:

Katey x

[Promethea]

Um...no. It i a site for the support of everyone. It is a Transgender site with sections for transsexuals and crossdressers (as well as Spouses an transmen) Also (as noted later here) transgender is crossdressers.. This is why it is IMPORTANT that we all use the same definitions. So I assume you are TS (which is part of being TG) and I agree we can't skitter off and play male when we are being discriminated against


I'm sorry, I tend to be a bit tomato tomahto sometimes, and I still can't grasp the supposed difference between TG and TS. The way I understand it, CDers are not, necessarily, TG, but well, regardless of that, the name of the forum is not transgender.com nor transexual.com, it's crossdressers.com, and the tagline doesn't mention TS. I wasn't here at the start, but I imagine the sections for TS people were added later. Just the name of the forum will not attract that many TS members as CDs (I just googled "transsexual support forum" and this forum wasn't on the first page of results - maybe the SEO needs to be worked on). The fact is that, judging by the number of posts, most members seem not to be TS. CDs come in very different flavours, some closer to being TS, some being just straight guys in dresses (I'm not talking about passing) who never left their home en femme, who see themselves and everyonelse in here as men (except the transmen, those are seen as women, of course), who have bought the idea that what they do is wrong. The experiences a CD and a TS person go through are different, so they may or may not be able to develop empathy.

There is no logic to make us expect every member of this forum to be supportive of us TS folks. Some of them are, but not all by any means. And some are just a-holes, like in any group of people.

Edit: oh, and there are and have been women presidents for quite a few years in countries inhabited by the human race ;)

[mechamoose]

Promethia:

What/who do you identify as in your most private moments?

How do you present/identify in your day to day life?

We have the right to be OURSELVES. Social considerations and norms be damned. I don't have to apologize for who and what I am. I may like you. but you have not EARNED the right to challenge that.

I'm a girl in a bull male body. I don't need your approval before I continue to be me.

We 'cross the streams'. We challenge assumptions. We are outliers... just being ourselves.

That isn't a crime.

- MM

[Promethea]

Moose, please read my posts again, I have not said anything remotely close to what you're implying. I'm actally saying almost the same as you.

On my last post I'm only talking about being surprised when some people here act the way they do.

I don't expect everyone here to be supportive, nice or sympathetic, so when some people are not I'm not disappointed.

I haven't challenged you nor what you are (and I agree you don't need my approval nor anybody elses, which is why when I talked about the word approval I put it between quotation marks).

I am a woman (I'm past the "girl" age). A trans woman. I wear skirts and dresses all the time to make my gender clear and unambiguous, but I don't "pass" and I don't try to. I don't apologize for "not passing" (I keep my body issues to myself and the mirror, I can beat myself enough, I don't need others to beat me even more). That doesn't make me (or any of us) any less of a woman.

[Katey888]

Definitions aside... there are whole threads dedicated to the discussion of our favourite 'categories' or 'labels' - so please, please, please keep it on topic from here... :)

And the subject matter is: times are changing in the schools

Thank you...

And definitions for this forum are in the sticky at the top of this section here: http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?162497-Some-Common-Trans-Related-Definitions

Katey
Moderator

[Melissa_59]

I've 4 daughters and don't like the idea as it will be abused (boys with cameras, fem boys being bullied to install a cameras, or boys who use it being bullied).
If they install unisex, then it becomes "user beware", but I rather have a girls toilet for use for girls who don't want boys peeing on the seat, a seat that my girls won't be scared to sit down on.

I have two daughters, Rachel. One is named Rachel. So - what is your solution?

~Melissa


I do not think that this is something that should be done. I think that if we, as a society, want to have unisex bathrooms for adults that is okay for discussion...

Do you have even a rough idea of how many other nations out there in the world have unisex bathrooms and have NO problems with both sexes using them? Even a ROUGH idea - it's more than you can imagine, and more than most MURICANS! or other Western countries can imagine, to be honest.

If you don't teach someone from birth that their body is shameful and must be hidden away or else 'The Devil Will Tempt You Into Evil', then you don't have these sort of nonsensical conversations. TRUST ME, when I first went into my first unisex bathroom in the Orient YES, I was disturbed!!! But it was because of my Christian upbringings and the "Evil" that I was taught from birth that was "sex" in any display (I was in the Air Force at the time) so yeah it bothered me. But you know something? You live, you LEARN, you educate yourself, and you stop hating yourself for what you are ("Ah'm a MALE an ah have SINNED" / "I'm a WOAH-MUN an ah have SINNED" - what balderdash!!!)... and suddenly this doesn't make any sense at all.

Really. If people weren't taught to hate themselves right of the starting gate, this sort of nonsense would be behind us. And I'm not just picking on Christians, I'm picking on any religion that teaches their followers to hate themselves for some "sin" that they were responsible for even before they were born - which is completely ludicrous. You're not even OUT OF THE CHUTE YET and yet somehow, you're already in the wrong - this is stupid. THIS is how self-hate starts, and it takes a long time to get over it.

Yes, I said that. And I'm right too.

We need to start teaching kids that they're not "defective even before they're born", and then we can get over this stupidity.

~Melissa

[Leilani]

In response to Lorileah:

"OK when do they become adults?16? 18? 21? Where is that line in the sand."

Seeing as you seem to be based in Denver, the following would apply:
"Colorado law (2-4-401(6)) defines a minor as a person who has not attained the age of 21, except as otherwise provided in the express language of another statute. The age of majority is the age when young people are considered adults for most matters. Colorado, as many other states, has determined the age of majority to be 18 years of age or older. Individuals are treated as adults at the age of 18, with some exceptions, such as drinking alcoholic beverages (12-47-901), renting cars, and purchasing a hotel room"

In my case, being from BC Canada it would be 19 years old as defined by the age of majority act from 1970.

"the argument against that idea is that 6-7-8 year old kids are not sexually active and by allowing them the use of unisex restrooms, they grow up thinking it isn't a sexual thing"

This is great in theory but in reality this is disproved simply by the number of children who historically have played "doctor". By their curious nature they are inclined to question and examine differences that they see (for better or worse) and while it may not be sexual per se, it would have a result of bringing attention to the genitals. Now, when we progress to the age of puberty and adolescence, the very nature of this time of someone's life and the fact that they are experiencing many changes leads to a general discomfort with their own bodies. Now, let us add to that discomfort the strange new feeling many of them are having for members of the opposite sex. Now let us thrust someone(s) of that opposite sex in their environment where they are dealing with very personal physical changes (we can pretend for the case of this argument that it is a females bathroom with a girl who is just getting her period for the first couple times) and in walks a boy (who identifies as a female). Whether that TG person means to or not, they will likely make the girl feel uncomfortable. Through nobody's fault I grant you. But, the reality is that there may be 1 or 2 of those boys and dozens or more of those girls.

You say that I use a "Really BAD analogy" by "saying that we should not accommodate a small minority over the majority. Welcome to 1950's Southern US. 'Separate but equal'". Forgetting for the moment that I used no analogy; but rather made a statement as to whether I felt it fair to inconvenience a greater number of people for a smaller number, I say again that if we want to work within society it behooves all of us, for the greater good to consider the feelings of those we affect. In effect, while someone out at a restaurant with a very young child might be able to sit and eat with their kid while it is screaming away annoying the majority of other diners, I think in that case the parents should pack up and leave. Get their food to go, or, if they have not yet ordered, apologize for the commotion and head out. It is simple consideration for the feelings of others. With a space as "private" as a bathroom, I believe that it is acceptable to place parameters such that the majority of that group have a right to reasonable presumption of privacy, uniformity of gender and uniformity of experience in that space. As parents, we should teach our children to consider others rather than teach them entitlement.

In response to my "good of the many..." you responded:

"thus sayeth every white male in Alabama in 1959"

I find that quite presumptuous a statement (every?) and quite insulting to hundreds of thousands of individuals from that time and place. Not trying to be inflammatory. I really do.

"I understand it is your opinion and you are welcome to it but there are little flaws that I don't think you have considered. Step back and put yourself into a situation where you are marginalized and treated as different or less. Hard to do. Say 90% of the population isn't like you so they say "Hey you can't do this or that" but you want to do whatever it is. Using a restroom maybe."

I do not think it is so hard in fact. The reality of the situation is that very nearly all malls and restaurants are now being built with "family" washrooms. If we want to stick with the school situation, as presented in the original post (and I do), I will propose a couple right now off the top of my head that would solve many issues without the need to needlessly make uncomfortable anyone:

1) The parent and teachers could make an arrangement where the child uses the staff restroom. Again, as it is only a couple kids that are likely to be in this situation, this should be fairly amenable to all

2) If the child is worried about getting bullied in the boys' room (I use boys room because of ease for scenario and not because it could only be this way) they could simply wait until after lunch, raise their hand 10 minutes into class and say "may I please go use the bathroom"? Then, they are very likely to have the bathroom all to themself.

No muss, no fuss and we are teaching our kids to be respectful of others feelings. Frankly, I think any argument that the other kids are not being taught tolerance is just silly. There is so much media coverage and social engineering in most other aspects of society that preach "don't judge others", "it's okay to be different" etc... that such concerns effectively become moot. I also see this as a way for the affected child (affected not meant as a disease but simply as "they are affected by the decision which will occur") to maintain their dignity among their peers. It shows the other students that the child cares about their feelings and is trying to ensure nobody has to feel attacked. In return, the student body gains respect for the person trying to find a reasonable, non legislative solution (though I do not think the kids would think of it specifically in those terms).

I will not go into a long rebuttal of comments to others that you wrote in your response but I will sum it up by saying that if you truly believe that the issue is that we have educated our sons to think of "elimination" as a sexual thing, I think you are completely missing the point. Completely. It may not be sexual, but it is genital. We must accept that kids will be curious about differences, we must accept that what is unknown will be sought out and that people, especially pubescent ones will have great anxiety about those areas considering all the hormonal changes that are affecting them at these years in their life. To force your issue on them is, to me, not only inconsiderate, but bordering on unconscionable.

These are just my 2 cents and I am sure that since we are so philosophically opposed on this there will be no meeting at a middle ground for us on this issue

[Dianne S]

Here in Ontario, we've been able to use the washroom of the gender we present as for quite some time now, and it's never caused problems.

Anyone who thinks this will be "abused" obviously knows nothing about teenagers. A guy is going to dress up as a girl and claim to identify as transgendered just to take photos surreptitiously? I don't think so... imagine the reaction of his peers.

There are a small percentage of perverts out there, and they will do their deeds whether or not transgender people are permitted to use the washroom of their presented gender.


It may not be sexual, but it is genital.

But... but... women's washrooms have separate stalls. No-one sees anyone's genitals! And I don't know about you, but I don't have a urinal in my house... the normal toilet works for men and for women.

As for men's washrooms, if a transman is uncomfortable (or incapable of) using a urinal, he just goes to a stall... privacy granted and problem solved.

[Leilani]

To Dianne S,

I am not saying, and have not said in either of my comments, that I think it would be abused. I do not think that there would be any type of epidemic about boys (or girls) using this as a way to go to the other genders bathroom and get a cheap thrill or take photos on the sly. My point as that with unisex bathrooms for kids there is the chance for people getting curious and this could have repercussions of making someone feel uncomfortable at a time of life when they are trying to get used to their own bodies never mind doing so in the presence of the "mysterious" other sex. If that was not clear I apologize for not making it so.

I also realize that if you are in a stall doing your business, nobody will, without effort" see any of your goods. Again, my point is that simply by them (the other gender) being present it may make someone needlessly uncomfortable. Again as another example (forgive me if I am indelicate), let's say a boy is in the bathroom and a girl who identifies as a male comes in. He is only recently getting interested in girls and wants to make a good impression. Is he going to feel as comfortable stinking up the bathroom or grunting away while she is in there since she is in fact the gender that he wants to impress. It is irrelevant that she identifies as male if he sees her as a mysterious other gender and by letting his guard down he could in some way hurt his chances with the girls in his school/class. Do I think it is a silly though on his part. Maybe, maybe not, but the important thing for him at this point in his development is that HE likely sees it as a stressor that need not be there.

Again, I have no issue if someone wants to discuss this for adults. And whether I am for or against is irrelevant on that point. But when we are talking about young children who are at a vulnerable time we should try to make as many of them feel as comfortable as possible. Is this not the whole point of the anti-bullying movement? To prevent putting kids in a position where they feel helpless and that their needs/concerns are irrelevant.

I say again, in areas like malls/restaurants/civic buildings etc... use the family washroom all you like or, sure, go to whichever bathroom you want I do not care but in a trapped environment for children, such as a school, e should err on the side of caution for the greatest number of individuals.

I am not god. These are just my thoughts.

[Dianne S]

Again, my point is that simply by them (the other gender) being present it may make someone needlessly uncomfortable.


Yes, you are right. If I use the women's washroom and I get read, some of the women might feel uncomfortable. (Though I doubt they'd feel threatened as I'm very small, even for a GG.) However, if I use the men's washroom while presenting as female, I place myself in serious danger of abuse or even assault. So ask yourself what is better: To make some students feel a bit uncomfortable, or make a few students feel seriously threatened? I know which side I come down on.


He is only recently getting interested in girls and wants to make a good impression.

If a male-identified person goes into the boy's washroom, presumably he looks male and the other guys in the washroom are not going to perform close examination to determine otherwise. You've been in a guy's washroom, right? It's basically "don't-make-eye-contact!!!" :) I think you're inventing edge-cases.

The real solution is non-gender-specific washrooms for *everyone*. That's more efficient, too, because you can plan capacity more accurately.

Another thing: Has anyone actually polled the *students themselves* to see how they feel about this? Most young kids I know are very open and accepting and don't even worry about all these fears that adults project on them.

[Marcelle]

In response to Lorileah:

... If the child is worried about getting bullied in the boys' room (I use boys room because of ease for scenario and not because it could only be this way) they could simply wait until after lunch, raise their hand 10 minutes into class and say "may I please go use the bathroom"? Then, they are very likely to have the bathroom all to themself.

Hi Leilani,

It is obvious you have some very strong opinions about this but your solution above makes no sense. Being TG in high school has to be difficult and I am sure we can agree on that part. But to imply a boy (MtF) can simply raise his hand 10 minutes prior to end of class and enjoy unfettered access to the "boys room" is not logical. I am not sure what school you went to but it is very likely that any number of guys could be using that same bathroom when the young MtF enters and if the dude(s) take exception to the young TG wearing a shirt and heels . . . well let's just say it is not a pretty picture . . . kid are capable of violence regardless of the age.

Your other contention that these kids can simply use the teacher's lounge is also not plausible. I discussed this with a friend of mine who is an executive with the "Teacher's Union". She indicated that it is unlikely that the union would allow kids in the Teacher's Lounge as it puts teachers in the position of being in close proximity to children in a seclude venue outside of the academic setting. This would be seen as problematic.

You also talk about this being a time for kids to come to grips with their own bodies and the confusion it causes. However, what you are not considering is the young TG. He/she is also trying to come to grips with an incongruence between their birth sex and their target sex. We are not talking about young boys or girls who want to try on the opposite gender's clothes for kicks . . . we are talking about a young person (e.g., boy) who knows in her heart of hearts she is a girl. Are you seriously saying that our response should be "man up boy and take you skirt and heels into the boy's room because that is where you belong" Yes there is going to be a discomfort level on both sides but that is where education needs to take place to ensure all parties understand what is going on . . . this is not about presentation this about incongruence of a young person's identified sex and birth sex. So while the young TG attempts to make sense of things we (society) are suppose to force them to conform to "you must be a boy not a girl because people are going to be uncomfortable with your going pee?" Do you understand the amount of emotional trauma that young TG is going through and by forcing them to use their "birth gender" bathroom? This thinking only aids in confirming to the young TG that they are different and on some level what they are doing is wrong.


. . . I also realize that if you are in a stall doing your business, nobody will, without effort" see any of your goods. Again, my point is that simply by them (the other gender) being present it may make someone needlessly uncomfortable. Again as another example (forgive me if I am indelicate), let's say a boy is in the bathroom and a girl who identifies as a male comes in. He is only recently getting interested in girls and wants to make a good impression. Is he going to feel as comfortable stinking up the bathroom or grunting away while she is in there since she is in fact the gender that he wants to impress. It is irrelevant that she identifies as male if he sees her as a mysterious other gender and by letting his guard down he could in some way hurt his chances with the girls in his school/class.

Sorry, I can't buy that argument. What about a young homosexual male in the same situation. Is he going suffer the same issue when it comes to hoping to impress the boys he likes? Indeed, we could apply your same logic to homosexual youth in their "birth gender" bathroom. Kids are not stupid and they know who is gay and who is not. Are girls going to feel uncomfortable because a homosexual girl is in the next stall? If so, should we have separate bathrooms for homosexual children who are open about their sexuality because kids might feel uncomfortable? Now before you launch with . . . "Its not the same thing" consider this. If a MtF TG truly identifies as female (i.e., they will most likely transition some day) then they are female in all sense of the word (genetics aside). They may like boys or they may like girls (sexuality) but then again a genetic female may like boys or may like girls. So what is about the young MtF TG using the girls bathroom is that upsets you. Is it that girls might (and you assuming this as you have not quoted any literature to prove it) be uncomfortable with it. It is just as likely that the kids will not care.

You talk about the "needs of the many outweighing the needs to the few". I would argue that we (society) represent the many and that when these children grow up what they learn about tolerance and accommodation to differences will flavour the world of tomorrow. If we teach them that they need to be afraid of difference, then things will never change. Why do you think it is so difficult to use the "Ladies" room when I am out presenting female? Because we have bought into the belief that it is somehow wrong. Teaching children while they are young that some people are different but it is nothing to be afraid of will make the world a better place in my opinion and as such "the many" win.

Hugs

Isha

[NicoleScott]

Of course kids (and adults) should use the restroom assigned to the gender that they present as and identify as. Details of their anatomy are nobody else's business.

Let's turn it around. Of course kids (and adults) should use the restroom assigned to their sex. Details of their gender presentation and identity are nobody else's business.

[Promethea]

Nicole, will you be the one inspecting the kids' genitals to determine which restroom they need to use?

[Dianne S]

Let's turn it around. Of course kids (and adults) should use the restroom assigned to their sex. Details of their gender presentation and identity are nobody else's business.

That doesn't make sense. One's gender presentation is usually pretty obvious, but one's genital details may not be, especially if one is presenting as a different gender than one's assigned-at-birth gender. So would you have inspectors at restrooms doing spot-checks?

I agree with people who say schools should provide a separate gender-neutral washroom. It should be used by all of those (male, female, cis-gendered or trans-gendered) who are not comfortable with the possibility of a transgender person in the regular washroom. Everyone else can use the regular washroom.

[NicoleScott]

No, I won't be doing any inspecting of genitals. Will you be confirming a person's gender identity? Gender presentation and identity are not always obvious.
I turned around a statement to show that people see the issue both ways. I'm for accommodating those who are uncomfortable using assigned restrooms, whether assigned by sex or by gender, by providing gender-neutral restrooms.

[Dianne S]

Will you be confirming a person's gender identity?

Of course not. All one can go with is presentation, and that's good enough. After all, if someone looks female and women in the restroom cannot tell that "he" "isn't" female, then what harm has been done?


I'm for accommodating those who are uncomfortable using assigned restrooms, whether assigned by sex or by gender, by providing gender-neutral restrooms.

I agree with that solution with the proviso that the special restrooms are reserved for those who would be uncomfortable with a transgender person in the regular restroom. Democratic societies guarantee personal safety. The specifically do not guarantee anyone the right to be free from discomfort. If you are uncomfortable with something, it's up to you to make accomodations to reduce your discomfort. Since it's physically dangerous for a transgender person to go to a washroom of the opposite-from-presentation gender, that person's right to personal safety trumps your desire not to be uncomfortable.

And in schools, even separate washrooms will lead to stigma and danger... unless they are reserved for so-called "normal" people who might be uncomfortable with a trans person in the washroom.

[mechamoose]

Promethia:

Sorry, I was forgetting for a moment that *I'm* an outlier here. Parts of me wish that I felt like the majority of you do.. stuck in the opposing gender's body, and making strides to 'correct' that. I'm not either, I'm both. Sometimes that clouds my vision.

I cope with the looks I get for wearing pretties and polish.. people just assume I'm gay. That isn't who you or our other sisters here are trying to be.

You have every right to live who you are, not as who you present. That goes all the way back to kids. Your identity has nothing to do with your chromosomes. Our 'officialdom' of government and politics hasn't figure out how to deal with that concept yet.

I don't care if you look like Earnest Borgnine in a dress. If you identify as female, I feel that you should have the right to live in that space.

<3

- MM

[suchacutie]

May I respectfully suggest that one important thought has yet to be discussed. If we are truly speaking of tolerance in diversity, then why are we not focussed on educating the students in these schools rather than, effectively, putting a bandaid on the problem. Let's step back for a momentand ask why bathroom usage Iis an issue. It has already been said that a boy presenting regularly as a girlwould be in danger (at some level) using the boys bathroom.

So, isn't that the problem the school districts should be focusing upon? Isn't that intolerance the bigger issue? Why are we trying to find ways around the "elephant" in the room instead of dealing with it head on? Protecting TG youth in the short-term is fine, but it would be more effective to instill tolerance along with this short-term solution.

[NicoleScott]

I agree with that solution with the proviso that the special restrooms are reserved for those who would be uncomfortable with a transgender person in the regular restroom. Democratic societies guarantee personal safety. The specifically do not guarantee anyone the right to be free from discomfort. If you are uncomfortable with something, it's up to you to make accomodations to reduce your discomfort. Since it's physically dangerous for a transgender person to go to a washroom of the opposite-from-presentation gender, that person's right to personal safety trumps your desire not to be uncomfortable.

Right out of the progressive playbook. "I'm different, so all of you have to change so I don't have to". Just like "I don't celebrate Christmas, and I'm offended by all the decorations. Remove them so I don't have to see them".
As I posted earlier, you want others to deal with their discomfort so you don't have any discomfort.

[Dianne S]

As I posted earlier, you want others to deal with their discomfort so you don't have any discomfort.

Let me fix that for you: I want others to deal with their discomfort so that transgendered youth don't have any threats to their safety. I'm gonna stop now, because I believe I've made that point as well as I can.

The Christmas decoration thing is a false analogy. I happen not to celebrate Christmas and I hate December because of the annoying Christmas music in all the stores. But it's not a threat to my safety, so I don't get upset about it.

[AllieSF]

I agree with you, Suchacutie, when dealing with an issue as important as trans rights the elephant in the room needs to be identified and then dealt with. However, in most cases the rights denied should be dealt with first even before a decent plan for that elephant is developed. Otherwise, our society and normal bureaucracies would easily continue to deny those rights unduly. So, I have no problem with the idea of granting the right first and finalize a good plan for further education later.

Nicole, are your concerns only for the current issue in schools (youth), or do you also believe that no one, including us adults, CD's or TS should be using the restrooms of the genders written on the door unless they have the correct genitalia? Though similar issues they both have distinct differences too.

[Promethea]

Moose, in my years in this forum (even though I've spent some time away) I have learned that there is no such thing as an outlier here. We are all very different here, and some of us would be (or are) seen as wackos outside of this forum. Although sometimes it would be good if we all had the frame of mind of being an outlier, in the sense of not assuming everybody else here is just like us.

Suchacutie, I think I did mention it, although maybe too briefly, but of course I agree with you. This effort needs to be accompanied by education to avoid any weird situation and that discomfort some people may feel due to injustified fears.

It also seems some people aren't reading what others have said, about this already being in place where they live and NOTHING hapenning. No boys dressing as girls to spy on girls, no transboys raped by cisboys, no girls screaming "there's a guy in here", nobody crapping in the halls because they don't want to share the restroom with a trans person. Nothing.

[Jilmac]

Any school I've seen have clearly marked restrooms so there's no question as to which is which. That being said, the one marked for "boys" usually has a row of urinals (some with partitions, some without), and two, maybe three partitioned toilets. The one marked "girls" offers more privacy with numerous toilets, each with a partition and door. I think it would be a no-brainer for any school board to vote in favor of letting students use the restroom provided for the gender they represent. As for the students themselves, some might be unhappy with the decision but diversity must start somewhere.

I would limit the decision to restrooms only but not locker rooms or showers designated for a particular gender.

[ReineD]

I don't know if there is just one solution. There are too many variables.

A teenager who identifies as the gender opposite than birth sex can still obviously have all the physical characteristics of their birth sex if they're not on hormone-blockers. What happens when a physical male uses the girl's bathroom? If the MtF is not on T-blockers will the MtF still not feel the consequences of testosterone production? On the other hand, if this MtF were on T-blockers to delay puberty until old enough to transition, then testosterone would not be an issue and it would be risky for such a young person to use the boys' rooms since the MtF would not have developed like the other boys.

At any rate, I don't think it should be up to just the individual to declare their gender as a free pass to the opposite sex bathroom. This would place the school in the position of having to make a medical assessment. The child/parents should procure notes from both a therapist and a medical doctor, which would not be an issue if the child were on medically prescribed hormone-blockers.

The other side of this: if a young FtM who still looks like a girl should use the boys' room … would the FtM be sexually harassed or man-handled by the other boys?

If a child is well on the way to transition physically (at this age it means hormone-blockers), then of course this child should use the bathroom that corresponds with his/her target sex. I've seen such children (all MtFs) and they look just like any other girl. But what to do during the transition period, or if a child is not on hormone blockers, when things aren't so clear? I think a single-user, unisex bathroom is a good idea. My SO suggested using the teacher's bathrooms if the school does not have funds to create a separate bathroom, until they no longer pass as their birth sex.

I still don't know about FtMs. This should be decided on a case-by-case basis. Can the FtM defend himself if assaulted or harassed by boys in the boys bathroom, if he is in a school full of people who don't accept this easily? Obviously there are schools in areas where such FtMs would get nothing but support from their peers. The demographics make a big difference.

[JamieQ]

A nearby university has the right idea, I think..."all gender" or "unisex" restrooms should make this argument easier. I'm for it.

http://www.wbko.com/home/headlines/WKU-Adding-All-Gender-Restrooms-To-Campus-285294681.html