Not really feminine?

[whowhatwhen]

Earlier this evening my mom told me that my aunt was worried I was rushing into transitioning because I'm apparently not very feminine.

I've been mulling it over since and trying to parse what that means.
I mean, it's true. I'm not very feminine in mannerisms, dress, or appearance but I never thought it was too relevant to me because I never was into girly-girl stuff and I'm not really interested in starting.

I've been on HRT for 7 months now and to be 100% honest I can't remember the last internal struggle I had over my gender identity.
What worries me is my family is going to doubt me because I'm not forcing feminine mannerisms or going super girly or something.

To kind of open this up to you all, how does your femininity relate to your transition or how people view(ed) you?

[Debglam]

I see a big difference between being a woman and being feminine. What is femininity anyway but stereotypes? Is a woman who is into traditionally masculine pursuits any less of a woman than the girliest femme? No. I see no problem with being a woman and being yourself.

[celeste26]

Femininity comes from within, it is expressing your inner self whatever is there. No amount of doing the various external things will enhance femininity except to satisfy the other people. Hurrying a transition is the worst thing to do though, so dont let them force you to speed up. Be persistent but slow enjoy each and every step of the process.

[chelyann]

Be your self , be how you feel you want to be NOT how any one else thinks you should be !!!!!!!!!!!

[Zooey]

I'm just at the very beginning of this process, but this is a topic that I've thought a lot about.

There are aspects of my personality and presentation that are very traditionally feminine, and aspects that aren't. I could say the same for all of my girlfriends, gg or otherwise (mostly gg though). My traditionally feminine presentation is very important to me as I start to think about the shape of my transition because, well, I'm a traditionally feminine person in some ways and I want to be myself. I like clothes, shoes, makeup, and all of that junk - always have - but I also love downing a few pints of Guinness while binge-playing videogames all afternoon to a hard rock soundtrack wearing pajamas. One of my best girlfriends cusses more than I ever have (which is saying something) and can put back whiskey like a sailor, rarely wears dresses but is always perfectly put together from head to toe and has the best hair I've ever seen. Another of my girlfriends could basically not care less about makeup/fashion/beauty/etc. and is a huge tomboy who loves driving giant trucks with huge tires up big hills, but is the best, most caring mother I can imagine to her new son.

Who's the feminine one out of all of us? I believe that all of us are equally feminine, but the ways in which we express it are radically different from person to person. Some people might find one brand of femininity or another to be easier to understand, but it's no more or less valid than anybody else's. People shouldn't judge the femininity of transwomen any differently than they do that of other women. What's wrong with being a trans tomboy (or whatever)?

[Nicole Erin]

The problem with some TS is they think downing a bunch of pills, getting electrolysis, and maybe surgeries (if they can afford it) will make them a woman.

The problem comes when a TS doesn't even bother to try to look like a woman, nor work on her voice or pretty much anything else. They wonder why they don't pass well, why they usually get called "Sir", and why no one takes them serious.

I know there are those rare, lucky Ts who pass without question even in man clothes, short hair, and no makeup but for the REST of us -
We have to make an extra effort to look good, present well, etc. If you at least ACT like you give a damn about your looks and presentation, people just might take you more serious, even if you don;t pass the best.

[whowhatwhen]

I take care of myself hygienically if that's what you mean ;)
My effort is making sure my hair is (more or less) combed and cooperative, my eyebrows aren't together, and I don't have a massive beard.

But my personality doesn't fit the whole makeup and glitzglam style which may be what my aunt was talking about, I suppose I could always ask her but posting here is easier.
:P

[Zooey]

Just do the Tina thing... Ask her, and if you don't like the answer make the noise. :)

[Rachelakld]

For me, when I want to be a female, I tend to emulate other females (dress, hair, make up, likes, dislikes, moves, voice, relaxed confidence) - Not girly-girly, that's OTT.
Maybe you could just girl it up a bit for Aunty and drop back to normal once she has gone? It might make her worry less and give your mum a big smile

[PretzelGirl]

When I made most of my statements about my transition, I usually said that I felt like a woman inside. From the first time I wrote that, I realized it was something that cannot be clearly defined, which could leave me open for interesting discussions. The reason is that it is different for each of us. The definition I just Googled of femininity is "the quality of being female; womanliness." and that would make be think that being a woman and femininity go hand in hand. So femininity is not clearly defined as it is also a personal thing. We can each express it in our own way.

Even though I always waited for someone to challenge me on the statement that I felt like a woman, I only ended up in that discussion once. It was from a supportive lady and she was being very complimentary. But together we drew the difference that I was dressed up for work with make-up and preferred it and she was in a t-shirt and jeans without make-up and that was her preferred daily attire. Neither of us was more feminine and neither of us was less feminine. We just felt we were feminine and had our own personal expressions.

[noeleena]

Hi,

Feminine .

in looks feminnie clothes makeup and all those little ...things....that make you look the part or like other feminine women .

or how you are as a person now i cant talk about men thats out never happened ,

As a female yes now your talking .

i express my self in a way that even many females / women i know dont do . why , because i was born with that part of who i am , my actions manerisims my personality and just who i am
, how i interact with others women more so, than men yet even they can tell you what im like, its natural , not an act or put on or for show and to put it another way ,

I was under the gaze of a few women who were not sure about me they thought i was a male , so they watched me for some time , i never knew till they told me and i thought oh dear ......

So at the end they came to me and said your not a male are you , I said no im not and why would i bother to lie there would be no point and they would know and suss me out pretty quick .

You allso have to remember im in the spot light and a P R person and to well known more so with in our groups with a membership of over 1500 people ,

To be a woman i had to grow as one to be one .it did not happen over night like some like to think,

they put on our clothes and think , they are women .....not so .... many i know can out dress out class and make an impression as like being a woman and run rings around me both in looks and acting , and leave me for dead. or by passed.

Yet at the end of the day , whos the real female / woman. were it possible for you to spend time with me say for a week or two youd see despite my facial features youd see / know what im saying is true. my beauty comes from with in, and thats what people see,

I never would admit this being a girly girl, fact is iv allways said..... no way ever,...... oh dear, im wrong check my posts you ,ll see it there, well im embarrased to say i am , just i never saw it maybe i did not wont to see it , as i,v grown into a woman,

i see in my self little changes over the last 21 years, from my body change,s ( no meds ) ,, how i interact with others and just normal living,

What im trying to get over is about growing , growing into and becoming for myself a woman . i do have the advantage of being female so may be that is where part of my difference is ,

Any way hope i,v helped in some small way,

...noeleena...

[Promethea]

Your aunt will be so sad when she hears of Queen Victoria's passing.

Nah, really, does she expect you to play with Barbie dolls and wear only pink? I don't even know what being feminine is supposed to mean. For the last few years I've been looking into what is associated with each gender in different cultures and it varies a lot. I don't consider myself to be stereotipically feminine, yet nobody has questioned me. One of the reasons I had to get away to start living full time was so that I could do it in my own way, the way I am a woman, not how someone else expects me to be.

Just be yourself. You are a woman. You know how it's done.

But I'd like to suggest a slightly different approach to Rachel's. Girl it up A LOT when your aunt is around. Be obnoxiously stereotypical. Hopefully that will get her off your back.

[whowhatwhen]

Actually my aunt hasn't treated me differently and as far as I know is just thinking of outdated concepts of masculinity/femininity like people were suggesting earlier :)

[Veronica_Jean]

I struggled with this too for a long time then realize it was just silly.

I have three daughters I raised. Of the three the oldest and middle are not at all girly-girls. My youngest IS and always was. When I was transitioning and even after going full time before I would go to work or go out she would look at me as say "Are you really not going to _____" fill in the blank with whatever girly girl thing, wear makeup, fix my hair more, wear a skirt, etc.

I tend to be much more the laid back comfortable woman that can be well put together even in sweat pants and a sweatshirt, or a dress, heels and full makeup. As far as being a female, that is very different from having an external expression as very feminine.

The only person you have to satisfy is yourself. As long as you are happy, they will either accept your happiness, or struggle to understand why you don't fit what they feel you should.

hugs,

Veronica

[Rianna Humble]

Pink, yet another time, you try to generalise about TS people without having a single clue what you are talking about.

Yes, non-TS transgender people are less feminine than ciswomen - that is because they are men. Trans women are not men nnno matter how many times you try to say that we are.

[Persephone]

I'm with Nicole Erin on this one.

I think that your Aunt wants you to be successful in your journey and to be comfortable in the world as a woman.

"Passing," being accepted, and all of those things are a result of "tells," individual actions, gestures, and the like that say "female" or "male." When you look at the GG women who engage in "masculine" activities you are still pretty certain they are women. That's because there are more "feminine tells" about them than "masculine tells."

Sooner or later, unless you plan to spend your life in perpetual transworld, you have to move to that position. So enjoy your Guiness, but drink, er, responsibly.

Hugs,
Persephone.

[Nigella]

Look around you, you will see "feminine" males and "masculine" females, but all that is down to what your perception of these two words mean. Just be your natural self, that all you will need, not what others think you should be :)

[whowhatwhen]

Sooner or later, unless you plan to spend your life in perpetual transworld, you have to move to that position. So enjoy your Guiness, but drink, er, responsibly.


My only problem with that is it'd be breaking the promise I made to myself not to emulate and force behaviour, feminine or otherwise.
:/

[KellyJameson]

It can be difficult to capture the meaning of feminine. I have come to understand it as being two things. That which is easily seen and that which is observed and felt but more difficult to discern.

The feminine that can be seen with the eyes may be physical attributes associated with being a woman and is very subjective so made up mainly of personal opinions and preferences.

Some people may think a woman with long hair is more feminine than one with short hair. Another example is a woman with large breasts versus one with small breasts. It could also be how the person is observed moving and acting. Someone who is thought to be a lady may also being thought of being feminine but others may see a lady absent her sexual alure so find her unfeminine and cold.

It really is about the audience making the judgement.

To fully experience yourself as a woman does require being seen and treated as one. We are to some degree dependent on others to experience our gender and this makes us vulnerable.

You could have your identity stolen from you just as easily as you can have it reinforced and supported by others. It is important to pass but without losing yourself and if you must chose between one or the other, selling your soul to pass will leave you an empty vessel regardless of other many others see you as 100% woman.

In the becoming of a woman (as to the outside) you do not want to lose that which "makes you a woman" (as to the inside). I have seen this happen often and it leads to another form of misery perhaps less severe than GD but still the person suffers.

Do not betray your integrity to "pass according to what others define as being a woman" but yet push yourself to "be the best woman you can be" in every sense of the word ACCORDING TO YOU AND YOUR OWN TRUTH

You have to find your own truth as to what is a woman. As an example I like my "boy body shape" where I have long lines and I'm not curvy along with my B cups that also keep me from being to curvy. This was my deep internal image of how a woman should look as to how I was meant to look.

I would always notice woman built this way because subconsciously I was always compelled to find in another woman "the woman that I was" but had been prevented from being.

You do not want to become a caricature of "what a woman is" according to others.

As to the second meaning of feminine that is on the inside and is an energy that all things in you springs forth from. This energy while found most strongly in women is not only in women but also men.

Think of this feminine energy as being the Willow Tree contrasted against the masculine Oak Tree. Both have their stengths but they are expressed differently.

I have always identified with the Willow tree but have elements of the Oak tree in me as well.

They both endure but do so in there own manner. One is gracefull and the other majestic. One bends with the wind and the other is able to resist from the unique properties that give it the physical strength to do so.

Femine and masculine are two opposite energies found in all living things. They make up a duality that complements and restrains each other. They both balance and test each other. They can be both the best of friends and the worst of enemies.

To help me understand the feminine energy I thought in terms of Yin and Yang.

My identity comes directly out of this energy and why I never identified with men.

I am intensely feminine on the inside and changed the outside so that I could express it to the extent that I needed to.

In some ways it has everything to do with being a woman but also nothing to do with being a woman because it is not exclusive to her.

She carries this energy effortlessly where it can be a burden for a man to, just as it can be a burden for a woman to carry its opposite as the masculine energy.

I have a cisgender friend and her life (because of her strong dominant masculine energy) has been very difficult for her to live. She would be defined as an extreme Alpha Female and it has thrown her so out of balance that all her personal relationships have suffered.

In my opinion to successfully transition you want to cultivate (discover/release/express) this inner energy. It will guide you as to how you present yourself to the world and others will "experience you as a woman" to go with "seeing you as a woman"

Another way of thinking about it is as to estrogen and testosterone being Yin & Yang. They both sculpt the individual and guide the individual throughout life and even though this is a gross oversimplification they are both in men and women.

Men and women are opposite energies while being cut from the same cloth. They are both simultanously the same and opposite to each other

There is no pure expression of a man or woman who is only one without the other. Each resides in the other and it is only the illusion that gender roles perpetuate that makes thinking that they are competely separate and unrelated.

[Michaella]

Being feminine and being female are different things. It is quite appropriate for someone who is female to not be very feminine. True for a lot of women, some of whom started as men.

I recommend Julia Serano's book "Whipping Girl," for more on this subject.

Sometimes I wish I weren't feminine, so that it did not confuse the issue of whether I really should transition, that is, that the attraction is not "just clothes.."

Michaella

[Michelle789]

In general, TG and TS people are less feminine than cisgender people. It’s absurd to argue otherwise, but the difference isn’t a disqualification. Each gender class has typical, sub-typical, and super-typical members. Each type qualifies for class membership.


If they are not female identified, then they are less feminine than cis-women. If you are female identified (TS) then you are a woman and are as feminine as any cis-woman. I have seen large varieties in cis-women and trans-women. I have seen transwomen who love dresses and makeup and transwomen who love jeans and T-shirts. This goes for cis-women too. This applies to any other aspect of feminine or masculine. Anyone who is a woman, trans or cis, is a woman, and is feminine. I don't care to try to compare degrees of femininity and try to focus on being myself. I am a woman who was born in the wrong body. Simple.

I think a lot of valid points were made in this thread. Women can be teachers, computer programmers, nurses, doctors, stay at home moms, work in a supermarket, salespeople, graphic designers, run companies, drive trucks, and do every possible occupation out there. Stereotypical "male" or "female" fields simply means that a field attracts more men than women. My field, computer programming, is 90% male. Still, 10% are female. Some cis, some trans, it doesn't matter. I am no less a woman because I can write code. My boyfriend is no less a man because he shows his feelings. Actually I admire that trait in men tbh.

@Nicole Erin and Persephone

I think you have some valid points. Women engaging in stereotypical male behaviors or activities still do them in a more feminine way, just as men participating in stereotypical female activities or behaviors do them in a more masculine way. A male nurse is man who is good and/or enjoys at nurturing other people, and a female truck driver is a woman who is good at and/or enjoys driving trucks.

Attitude and confidence are more important than any thing else. No matter how feminine a movement is, if you appear nervous you might get clocked. No matter how well you pass physically threatening to kick everyone's behind will get you clocked and in more trouble than just being clocked. Even if you don't pass too well physically having confidence and a good attitude and behaving responsibly will carry you a long way. I have personally seen transwomen who don't pass physically get gendered as female because of subtle behavior cues and by behaving responsibly, and I have seen transwomen who pass very well physically who get misgendered because of subtle behavior cues and for behaving irresponsibly.

[Inna]

being a woman, the natal genetic sort, comes in slew of variants, from ultra feminine XXX to butchy tomboyish girl.
And as expected I would suffice many answers here will factor in butchy-ness and the manner of being along the masculine line.

Said that, there are mannerisms which are entirely manly and vice verse. Some character overlap but some do not, and here is the detail of coming off as male or a female.

Because even though a real butch lesbian, who identifies within masculine aspect of character, walks within geometry of the female pelvis, uses voice coming out of female voice box, and projects her butchyness through slew of female character.
Same goes for transwoman, if certain aspects aren't corrected, they will always be somehow perceived as man portraying female within harsh societal scrutiny and even if some are looking with tolerant eye they still will see a TS woman instead of a female.

[whowhatwhen]

I agree on the voice, I have a decent phone voice with a roughly 80% hit rate but I haven't worked on pitch or anything yet.
What bothers me is the apparent need to emulate mannerisms.

:(

I feel at peace with my identity yet I'm conflicted on "forcing" feminine mannerisms uncharacteristic to myself. From what I'm reading here I won't pass unless I go against how I act by default.

[Starling]

There's no definitive answer that covers everyone. But I'm with you, Corinne, on not wanting to unnaturally distort my behavior. Rather than "forcing mannerisms," though, you might try wearing heels often and keeping your nails long. These two simple steps will alter your body language more than you might imagine. Wearing a shortish skirt, and therefore having to change the way you sit, could help too.

Growing up, I watched my mother very carefully: how she applied her foundation, powder and lipstick, did her hair, did her manicure; and I observed how she negotiated stairs in long, tight skirts, and how she managed to stand for hours on the stiletto pumps that in those days were de rigeur with a suit. Now, when she dressed down, as when doing the laundry or shopping in the daytime, her posture was less careful and her stride a bit longer, but she retained the larger part of her what I might call her dignified bearing, even so. She kept her pride, no matter what she was wearing and doing.

I always keep her image in mind when I'm able to go out as myself.

:) Lallie

[Veronica_Jean]

I agree on the voice, I have a decent phone voice with a roughly 80% hit rate but I haven't worked on pitch or anything yet.
What bothers me is the apparent need to emulate mannerisms.

:(

I feel at peace with my identity yet I'm conflicted on "forcing" feminine mannerisms uncharacteristic to myself. From what I'm reading here I won't pass unless I go against how I act by default.

The first year after I went full time I worried constantly about replacing the male shell I had created with a now new female shell. It wasn't at all what I wanted. I wanted genuine expression of myself to be what I presented. I constantly fought over the notion that I had to walk a certain way, and gesture a certain way, and all the rest. It just isn't necessary.

Within the last two years I was assigned with a group that has a high percentage of female workers. I would say at least 50% perhaps more. What I discovered is there is a wide variety of expressions, looks, opinions, and none of them are wrong or not female expressions. They all have many of the same insecurities and fears about how they look, act, what others say and how others will react. I personally believe I pass much less than I would desire, but most of these women had no clue I was a trans woman, and when they found out (because I told them) they could care less. To them I remain just another woman.

Forcing anything that is not authentic and genuine IMHO is just wrong and has nothing to do with passing or being a woman. I was given a precious gift once I returned to work after just starting full time from someone that no longer worked in that division. It is a book titles "I am beautiful: An celebration of women in their own words". This book is nothing but page after page of pictures of women, all shapes, ages, and features, that explain what to them makes them beautiful and often how they found it. It is an eye opening understanding of just how much women struggle just finding beauty in themselves, and a lesson that we are not that much different than we often feel from all other women.

Being accepted and passing is far less about how you move or gesture, and far more about how you feel about yourself and letting that inner female show through.

hugs,

Veronica

[Angela Campbell]

For me it was.. and still is important to pass. In reality I do in 99% of interactions. I did spend a lot of time working on my appearance, wardrobe, voice, air and everything else to the point it is all natural to me. But yes I have very masculine job and still am viewed as a lady even then. So in response yes it was very important to me and so far it has made my transition as smooth as it could possibly be.

[Dianne S]

As with Angela above, it's important to me to pass and I do my best to do so. I do try to have some feminine mannerisms, especially the way I walk because that's often a dead giveaway. However, I don't do anything that feels unnatural or exaggerated.

Not all women are "feminine" in the stereotypical sense. My sister wouldn't be caught dead in anything other than jeans and a sweatshirt. She wears no makeup most of the time, walks around with a backpack instead of a purse and takes no bullshit. But no one would think for a second that she's not a woman.

[Angela Campbell]

But you see, those things have nothing to do with femininity. It is much more subtle than any of that.

[Requal Jo]

The important thing is all of this is to be yourself. Be who you wish to be as you are only one you have to satisfy.

[Persephone]

My only problem with that is it'd be breaking the promise I made to myself not to emulate and force behaviour, feminine or otherwise.

So what have you transitioned to? What does it mean to you? Are you socially confortable?

Hugs,
Persephone.

[whowhatwhen]

Obviously I'm transitioning from M to F and to me it means being happy and living my life as it was meant to be in the first place.
I'm comfortable with myself and no longer question or struggle with my gender identity.

Behaviour and identity are completely separate, what the issue seems to be is that in order to have any chance at passing I'd need to do the same conscious emulation I did to survive school.

[Xrys]

This is something I have thought about alot myself. I made myself a similar promise, that I was going to be honest and be myself and stop trying to act like a walking steriotype. I understand the struggle you are having. What things do I need to learn/practice/do to pass, and what things are just tryino to perpetuate a steriotype. I am also trying to find that fine line between being genuine and natural and just trading one steriotype for another.

[whowhatwhen]

Definitely.
While I know it's definitely holding me back to where I only get read as a feminine kind of gay guy it feels great not having to consciously think of any traits.
I'm just existing :)

[mechamoose]

Feminine???

I'm a girl inside here, and I can bench press my (considerable) body weight.

Don't you let anyone tell you that you don't deserve to live in the space you are in.

You need to please YOU.

Everything else is gravy.

I get the feeling that many members feel that if they don't nail the illusion, that they failed. It isn't just about the illusion, it is being comfortable being who you are. I have said in other circumstances that you could look like Earnest Borgnine in a sun dress, but that doesn't invalidate who YOU are.

Give yourself some breathing room, sweetie!

<3

- MM


<3

- MM

[Promethea]

So what have you transitioned to? What does it mean to you?
Persephone.

I think the key lays here, in the second part mostly. What does being a woman mean to you? We are all different, and those tells that Persephone was talking about change depending on the context. Tonight I'm going to a jugglers gathering. If I were to show up looking like Persephone on her profile pic I wouldn't be read as female, I would be read as lost. Not to mention I wouldn't feel comfortable, as it's not my style. Yet it's probably very appropriate for her circles, and she wouldn't be allowed into some of them if she looked like me.

I've always thought of myself as slightly tomboyish, but apparently I am feminine. At least yesterday a girl I had met the day before told me that for her, the difference between gay men and transwomen was that gay men force their femininity while for transwomen it was natural, and she felt I was naturally feminine and delicate. Not going into all that is wrong with that phrase, I take one thing from it. Naturality. Do and be what is natural for you. You will be read as you. You who happen to be a woman.

[Inna]

I have come to understand that being man or in fact being woman is still wearing a MASK!
In sociology one and the other contain attributes which sometimes overlap and then some remain separated by the cultural aspects or simply biological ones.

When transitioning, one does take off the uncomfortable and undesirable mask in place of one which fits their inner being. However, it still remains a mask. Even girls are conditioned through mostly peer influence to embody the femaleness. Some revolt against this enslavement and act as Tomboys, however when observed by a bystander they still are visually easily recognized as female. That is because of their biological texture. Such as flexible joints, weaker muscular foundation, pelvic structure, all these promote the body language and movement which drastically differ from that of males.

When a transwoman trains or rather retrains her movement and mannerisms, all she is doing is to take her body to next level of congruity with the inner feminine being. Some do, Some don't, not that either is wrong or right, but if someone does not care to embody womanliness in its entirety, then they should also accept the fact of being pointed out in the crowd!

It is all about how much detail and believability one wants to add to their mask!

[Kathryn Martin]

Earlier this evening my mom told me that my aunt was worried I was rushing into transitioning because I'm apparently not very feminine.

If you ask yourself against what is your femininity measured against it might give you some answers about where femininity comes from. It is not other women, who fight the passing game every day because someone decided how a woman should look like, should behave like, should dress like etc. And this standard is enforced through everything you see about women in the media, in social discourse, by men, by other women etc. Your aunt is now enforcing it on you. Think about it.

[whowhatwhen]

I've been thinking about it and unfortunately for transpeople it seems to be a hard truth.
People seem to read the cues as much as they do things like bone and facial structure and unfortunately it's so common that those changes won't happen in my lifetime.

It's certainly a different perspective, she's worried about me making a mistake because of missing cues or not being feminine enough whereas my mom just doesn't want me to end up murdered.
In fact no more than an hour before my mom told me about what my aunt said we were discussing my childhood and how she kinda knew, ect...

The real kicker is that by not practicing and enforcing those cues I will definitely increase the amount I will be read as male in the future.
There's no getting around that but on the other hand I feel that emulation is a bit of a betrayal considering what I needed to do to get by somewhat easier growing up.

[DebbieL]

I always thought it was a bit funny. As Rex, I was "Too nice", effeminate, "swishy". People assumed I was gay because I was effeminate. They would try to fix me up with cute guys, not understanding that Rex was asexual. The girl liked both guys and girls, and especially bossy girls who took control.

When I first came out as girl, people thought I was a drag queen because I was so feminine. My skirts were too short, my heels were too high, and my tops were too tight, but I was just being me.

When I started dressing age, situation, and weight appropriate, I just blended in. In fact, the first time in almost a year that I got "read" was an 8 year old autistic girl, who told her mother "That's a man!" in front of several other women who were also waiting in line for the restroom. I bent over and whispered "I was, but not anymore". She smiled and said "Like magic?", I smiled and nodded. She turned and joined her mother.

A few people know that I was a guy, but they also know that the boobs are real, they won't just "go away", and that I'm too feminine to be a guy.

Sometimes I think I'm not femme enough, but I seem to blend in quite nicely.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

One of the biggest motivations for people to deny us support or to campaign against us is simply fear!
It works against us because the nature of being transsexual and especially the nature of transition almost always includes a lot of fear on our own part (even if its just fear of unknown).
And by raising the whole "you don't look like a woman" thing, it can really dig at you. So I feel you that these comments are on your mind.

They should be on your mind.

It's a hard truth that if you are talking about appearance, you must consider it in any decision you make regarding transition. Your appearance will impact your quality of life.
You must be prepared to not pass. You must be prepared to stand out at times or be looked at "funny". You must be prepared to disclose your transsexuality even after transition.
Post transition, I've been blessed to pass, but I still have shame issues, and I don't relish disclosing my transsexuality to people. I live with that every day even though I am thrilled beyond belief that I transitioned and don't have any more gender dysphoria.

So I can't hate on somebody for raising this issue.
The good news is that you can find all this stuff out by just going outside and being yourself. You can get a feel for how you will deal with it by interacting with people as yourself (ALOT). It's not a necessary thing to go out a lot before transition, but ask anybody that did it that way and they will tell you that it solidified their decision to transition or not transition. It's just a very realistic and pragmatic way to approach it.. Perhaps you do go out a lot already. If that's the case, then you already know the answer and the whole debate about masc/fem is intellectually interesting and helpful, but it won't change what's going to happen for you.

[Angela Campbell]

Kind of like RLE I guess? I think that is a good thing. I just completed my year of RLE and I am glad I did so. It has been affirming.

But as to the other issue. Only you can decide how to live your life. Some want to be relatively stealth like me, while some are trans and proud, and others are in the middle somewhere. If passing is important you learn and do what you need to do. If not then do as you like. I have many learned behaviors. some about being a woman and none feel fake to me. Then again there are lots not to do with transition I adhere to because it is better overall. Like keeping my hair nice...a pain in the ass and it is a forced thing, not natural at all. Manners....Not natural but I still use them, always have. There are just some things that society expects and you stand out if you don't comply. Standing out is ok for some, not for others.

If you had been born gg surely your mother would have pushed you to learn some of the behaviors you are concerned with. Girls don't just automatically walk a certain way or are born keeping their knees together. They are taught. Mostly by growing up around other girls.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

What i'm trying to say is that you need to focus like a laser only on what will make your life better, and forget all the imponderable and debatable social implications about masculine and feminine, society, child raising, how to sit, whether to smile, whether to be more passive...(i've met some really really aggressive and domineering transsexuals..nothing feminine about their demeanor at all!)

All these things are not going to help you live your best quality of life. Feminine is this, masculine is that....you say its this and I say its that.
potato potatoe...

Live your best life. This is noise generated out of fear by people that hopefully love you.

[becky77]

Do you want to be a woman or something inbetween? Simple as that.
If you have these principles that keep you from learning what all other women learn then so be it, be different, own it and stop worrying about passing.
Otherwise quite moaning and put the hard work in that everyone else does.

A good example of this is Voice: (even though you have 80% success rate, what if you didn't?) So by your rules don't bother trying to speak like a woman, use your mans voice as thats what is currently natural to you, despite that you will have picked up a mans way of inflection. If you are happy to talk like a man then all power to you, but if you are not you will need to see this for what it is and make the changes.

Women have years of growing up and maturing to learn how to be a woman, you grew up learning to be a man. If you want to be able to fit in with the female race in general you have to unlearn some male behaviours and learn some female, hopefully as TS much of it is natural to you already. That's just the way it is
You say you just want to be yourself but who is that? You haven't long started your transition. Your options are really very simple, be trans and proud and accept you will be seen that way. Or learn to become a woman, it's what women do and you say you are a woman?

I think you need to contemplate what the meaning of feminity is, It's not about wearing dresses, make-up and pink but it's also not talking and walking like a bloke!

Perhaps it would be helpful to say the things that you feel personally would benefit you to emulate but that also feel forced to you? right now you are generalizing, so it's difficult to see what the problem might be other than a touch of stubborness? I don't mean that in a bad way but after years of trying to be someone else I can see your stand point, but also it's hard to see the woods for the trees sometimes.

For example, if someone said to me that I was sitting in a particularily masculine way, say legs spread but in a skirt. I would want to know and work on it because that's not going to help me fit in and it's not good etiquette either. But if that person said you're a girl now you should not be drinking Beer, well I think that's just dumb. It may not be viewed as particularily girly but plenty of women drink beer, you like what you like.
Me I prefer Red wine :)

[whowhatwhen]

I don't think that not going all the way in terms of conscious emulation puts someone in the "in-between" category.
I feel that if behaviours are going to change it needs to be an organic process and that forcing female mannerisms to "fit in" is just as bad as the male ones you forced before transitioning.

When you give the example of women sitting with their legs apart I think "that's arbitrary, why can't they?" instead of how I can incorporate that into day-day life.
Definitely related to stubbornness but it bothers me that in order to have a chance of passing I need to pick up archaic mannerisms and force them into use.

That being said I'm not in the RLE phase yet, with a 10% "read female" rate that'd just be asking for serious depression.
Don't get me wrong, I want to get there but I really wish it'd be natural and not forced.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

You are who you are..

for what its worth, some of us know that difference between 99% full time and 100% full time is night and day...

what is natural BECOMES what you are... not the other way around..

you can't pretend to pass or force yourself to act a certain way to pass... it just happens or doesn't. You are best served to consider that all you need to do is be yourself, then the chips will fall and instead of preparing to wonder about whether you have to cross your legs a certain way, prepare to live your life knowing that you may or may not pass, that you may or may not be good at dealing with it..and act accordingly..

[GabbiSophia]

How long or when does that take effect kaitlyn? The natural? I really like the op and i am near this question myself.

[Kathryn Martin]

The real kicker is that by not practicing and enforcing those cues I will definitely increase the amount I will be read as male in the future.
There's no getting around that but on the other hand I feel that emulation is a bit of a betrayal considering what I needed to do to get by somewhat easier growing up.

But what really are the cues? I think that is the real question.

[mechamoose]

Hi WWW :)


I don't think that not going all the way in terms of conscious emulation puts someone in the "in-between" category.
I feel that if behaviours are going to change it needs to be an organic process and that forcing female mannerisms to "fit in" is just as bad as the male ones you forced before transitioning.


Until we go 'all the way', we are all 'in between'. Me? I live my life 'in between'.

As far as 'sitting' behaviors go, males have bits that need freedom that females don't. It is a natural behavior for males to go 'wide'. Females can tuck in without discomfort. For those of us trying to cross over, that is a learned behavior, not a natural one.

Trust me, being you, at 60/40, 70/30, whatever, is FAR more valuable from a psyche perspective than calling yourself up short because it isn't 90/10+

You have to be comfortable in your own skin, honey. Nobody else's timetable, nobody else's approval schedule. You just have to be ready to be yourself. If that is a moving target, so be it. Nobody else gets to say who you are but YOU.

<3

- MM

[Angela Campbell]

When you give the example of women sitting with their legs apart I think "that's arbitrary, why can't they?" instead of how I can incorporate that into day-day life.
Definitely related to stubbornness but it bothers me that in order to have a chance of passing I need to pick up archaic mannerisms and force them into use.
.


But you know the old saying...if it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck......maybe better said.....if it walks like a man.......

It all depends on how you want to be perceived by the rest of the world. But yeah, if you want a chance at passing you have to learn the ways. No it isn't about girly girly, but the old male ways have to be overcome.

[becky77]

What is all the way? Be more specific, what is it that you feel is forced?

[mechamoose]

To me, 'all the way' is a complete transformation in appearance and attitude. Surgery isn't required.

- MM

[whowhatwhen]

But what really are the cues? I think that is the real question.

That's what I wanna know lol.
If I have to research them then it's most definitely not gonna be natural.

There is no in-between here, what I am understanding is that "in-between" only exists if you don't want to consciously act feminine.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Sorry but you simply can't know

in the context of living your best life (assuming that's transition), consider the statement you made..."what I am understanding is that "in-between" only exists if you don't want to consciously act feminine"...it doesn't even mean anything...

Living as you were meant to live, from the RLE to transition and everything in between IS THE PROCESS that gives you this information..

IF you do not transition, then one of the "issues" you may have is dealing with the daily grind of whether you feel more fem or masc...or whether you seem to others too masc or too fem...

fwiw, I cross my legs all the time... and I recall sitting on my couch with my legs curled up and thinking "OMG, i'm sitting like a girl", and then wondering if I did it on purpose and beating myself up for trying to hard... I am not talking to you from a judgemental perspective, I am talking to you from a perspective of sharing the experience I have and how I thought exactly the way you are thinking and all that thinking came to nothing.. you have to do it if you want to know..

[Starling]

Corinne, I once had a female teacher who was extremely manly. Her name was Dr. Miller. She walked like a man and struck poses like a man. She talked tough, both in speech patterns and choice of words. She wore her hair in a severe style, used no makeup and dressed pretty much like a man, wearing oxford shoes or loafers with socks, but always with a below-the-knee skirt rather than slacks. She was still undeniably a genetic woman.

What were the cues? She was shorter than the average male, she had a waist and hips, although they were not particularly shapely, and she had a female face with no beard. Corinne, you are much more female than she was; and in fact the only thing she had over you was the label of woman. And that's something you've given yourself. Worry it not to death.

:) Lallie

[Inna]

these cues are obvious to a woman who had transitioned in the past and who now lives a congruent life.
Her perception of the world is quite different than that of non transitioned or in process of transition person.
Details are difficult though not impossible to convey.

I use my example, when I set out on the path towards womanliness, I put emphasis on "Rebooting" the hard drive of my self, and uploading a new mannerism software, that of mainstream female.
Firstly was unlearning which was forced by continuous exercise in movement. Being analytical in nature I wanted to know what mechanisms were responsible for woman to move her hand just as most do, to stride along in the mesmerizing fluidity, to feel soft to the eye of an observer.

None of this is easy, in fact it is utterly difficult.

To find a new way of propulsion, to change the alignment of center of gravity, to stretch ligaments of the pelvis to allow the fluid and remotely opposite weight shift, which in turn makes for the swaying movement.

Not days, not months but years of constant repetitive learning.

But here we are, I live, I embody, no longer consciously but inherently! This is how far it needs to go to "be" instead of to mimic.
I have relearned the behavior, I come of as natural because I no longer have to think about it.

Now, am I better then anyone else, heck NO, but, if natural is of importance in your quest to self, then it will take tremendous amount of dedication to get there.

As I was used to say here in the past "All it takes, is everything"

[Kathryn Martin]

That's what I wanna know lol.


Watch women...... then watch yourself...... natural comes from how you relate to the world around you.....

[Starling]

Corinne, I was constantly being called on sitting, standing, walking like a girl my whole young life. When I don't consciously "tighten" myself, my movements and gestures are way more female than male. Being myself is a huge relief from that. I'd bet the same is true for you. Get in the swing of things.

Your mom and your aunt are too close to you to judge. They've learned to ignore the female cues you throw off. Thank them for caring and enjoy yourself.

:) Lallie

[PaulaQ]

Earlier this evening my mom told me that my aunt was worried I was rushing into transitioning because I'm apparently not very feminine.

To kind of open this up to you all, how does your femininity relate to your transition or how people view(ed) you?

It could very well be your voice and communications style (gestures and stuff like that) that concerns them. You don't have to be super feminine for there to be noticeable differences in the way men and women speak and communicate. In fact, there are noticeable differences between say a VERY butch lesbian and a really femme gay man.

Children pick up on these differences - they are all learned - at a young age. You can certainly learn this stuff - but you'll have to make an effort to do so if that's what you want to do. I do try to make this effort.

That said - there's nothing wrong with being obviously trans. You don't need to pass. Yeah, life is a lot simpler in many respects if you do pass. But there isn't one thing wrong with being yourself. You weren't socialized as a woman. How much male socialization you shed, and how much female socialization you pick up is entirely up to you. There is no right or wrong answer here in my opinion - just what's right or wrong for you. Again that's just my opinion.

I'll also say that in my own case, there are women I know who are more feminine than I am, and women who are less feminine than I am. (A lot less - I'm fairly feminine.) In person, people generally see me as a woman - I'm passing much of the time now. I've been working diligently on my voice for a year now, and it's pretty good, but not where I want it to be yet. I have noticed that I have a much easier time coming across as a woman to people who didn't know me before. People from my past have a very hard time not seeing me as "Scott," despite the fact that at this point, I really look or sound nothing like him.

So I don't think family members or old friends are a good source for judging your femininity.

For me, personally, I present the way I do because it makes me feel better. I don't give a damn what anyone else thinks.