Nuture/Nature and the Girl Lizard Brain (GLB)

[Marcelle]

Hi all,

Okay I will apologize in advance to the mods/admins and whoever for posting yet another topic along this lines. However it seems to be a big point of interest and since I did not want to hijack Katey's thread . . . not to mention she accused me of being quiet so the gauntlet has been retrieved Lady Katherine :heehee: . . . so I thought I would start a new thread along these lines to state my belief on this and encourage dialogue on the subject. I am going to discuss the two sides "Nurture" and "Nature" with competing views. I will apologize to our FtM brothers who may read this post. I am keeping the example MtF for ease of explanation but it would be the same for you, only in the opposite gender direction

Again this is my own take on things and to honest even the scientific literature is all over the place. However, after reading quite extensively on this subject, this is the stance I tend to believe in as it explains so much about me. I invite all to provide their input/experience . . . but's let be civil and not transcend into name calling please. :battingeyelashes:

Nurture

It has been posited in various journals within the behavioral realm that rearing (how one is socialized) will determine for the most part how a person interacts with the world around them. So if we look at gender identity, we all tend to be socialized along our birth sex (boys as boys / girls as girls). We interact with others of our gender and engage in gender typical play/past-times/relationships and so on. However, for some reason some of us tend to move toward the other gender. Early behavioral understanding tried to demonstrate that TG folks must have been raised/reared in a gender atypical way . . . think boys raised in an all female home with no men to role model becoming more effeminate or a girl raised with brothers being a tomboy. However this belief was put to rest some time ago and its disfavor can be evidenced here in that many who are raised/socialized along their birth gender still grow up to have gender identity issues.

Now this is not to say that behavior cannot account for some aspects of dressing. Some work has been done on fetish dressing in that young men who experience early sexual arousal either through gender role play or use of female items of clothing can in essence spend an inordinate amount of time "chasing the dragon" sort to speak in order to recapture that first orgasm. This may lead to more dressing behavior (upping the dressing ante sort to speak) leading to full on dressing in order to be sexually aroused. I am not saying this is the sole reason but some behavioral studies do point to that link . . . though I believe there is still more there . . . explained below.

Nature

What we are talking about here is "biology" plain and simple. A lot of time is spent espousing the "genetic" theory . . . we are who we are because of our genes. I for one cannot commit to the "gene theory" anymore than I can commit to the "behavior theory". Here is my reasoning. If this could simply be explained by genetics (passed along the family line in whatever genetic delivery system) there would be a prevalence of cross dressing men/women in your family line. Genetics by nature lead to manifestations of certain traits (hair colour, eye colour, phenotypes) and certain conditions (hemophilia, cystic fibrosis, and various other diseases/disorders) which tend to run in families. If this were so for being TG, then there would be a history of it in the family line. It might skip a generation but it would be close at hand (i.e., not a distant relation). Now many here might say "Well perhaps they hid it well?" Seriously? :raisedeyebrow: . . . As we all know, this thing does not stay secret for long and I am sure you would have heard the hushed stories about "Uncle Dave" or "Grandpa" who had a proclivity for ladies things.

Now not to deny the "nature" aspect it's day in court I do hold to some of the studies currently looking at the effect of prenatal hormones on the development of the human brain. Studies have shown that the human brain differentiates early in development both structurally and functionally in a sexually dimorphic way. Researchers have demonstrate that there are clear structural sex differences in the central nucleus of the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc) - a part of the hypothalamus. This difference between men and women is related to size and the number of somatostatin immunoreactive neurons. Studies have shown that those suffering from gender identity issues tend to have BSTc which are more typical of the opposite gender. Okay someone is going to jump and say "Yes but Isha, I am a cross dresser plain and simple. I know I am a man so I don't have gender identity issues" . . . Well, I suppose that could be true but let me ask you to suspend disbelief for a second and follow me down this garden path . . . :)

. . . We can all agree we are an eclectic bunch. There are fetish dressers, some who just like to dress up (makes you feel good) then put it away, others like to dress up and go out, others prefer to live life presenting female for some proportion of time while others will live life as a woman 24/7 and never transition (no SRS) and others will go the whole distance (SRS). To be honest, IMHO no matter which way you skin this cat we all have an innate need to present on some level as a woman. Be it just wearing some aspect of women's clothing (for what ever reason / sexual/ feeling good) or presenting to the Vanilla world as female. You may be able to say "I am truly male" (or not) but IMHO you are splitting hairs . . . you like to dress/present as the opposite gender in some form or another for whatever reason so your gender identity is not as black and white as you think. Soooo (and stay with me :)) . . .

. . . If we hold to the hormone wash theory above it is plausible that some of us may have BSTc more typical of women (MtF) and as such the gender identity issues may be more prevalent. This may cause some to have an overwhelming urge to present female in public (express the inner girl to the world), partake in body modification to be seen as more female (e.g., laser hair removal, BAS, HRT) and use clothing and make-up to approximate the target gender. In this circumstance the person may identify female only (TG/TS) or still have a strong pull to his/her male identity (TG/CD) with no desire to transition but the urge to be seen as female is still very strong because the Girl Lizard Brain (GLB :battingeyelashes:) is very vocal and wants coexistence with the male identity. For those who dress on occasion (could be in the privacy of your home or in public) to relieve stress, just feel good or for sexual satisfaction but you can then pack it away for longer periods of time until the urge hits again, it is probable that your BSTc may be more typically male but with a slight pull to the female hence you gender identity is more male than female. This would afford you the opportunity to explore the "inner girl" when needed but then go back to being "Joe Dude" for most of your life. So it is probable that those who progress up to and including transition, their BSTc may be more female and hence the male identity slips away over time or the male identity remains but has to time share with the female identity which would explain the urge to dress and present female from time to time (vocal Girl Lizard Brain). Those who dress on occasion for whatever reason may still be time sharing with the "inner girl" but she has limited windows of occupancy whereas the "outer boy" holds the lion share (Not so vocal Girl Lizard Brain). This might explain why some can just dress and go back to being guy without ever giving the inner girl a second though and some may go back to being "guy" but the inner girl is still there, jumping up and down while waiting for her time share and her shouts for recognition become pervasive in your thoughts.

Now this is not biology telling to wear women's clothing, use make-up, take on female gestures or engage in what you believe to be stereotypical female pastimes (housecleaning, cooking, shopping) it is biology telling you . . . "Umm, you do realize that you have some girl in you up in the lizard part of your brain". Once you realize that (at whatever point in your life) you take the necessary steps to present as female or your version of what female means to you and in whatever manner you wish it to be (fetish, feeling good, normal gal about town).

So that is my take on things as it explains so much about me. I was raised in an all female home but I had very strong "uber-masculine" role models who initiated me in the way of guy past times. However, I can recall still liking my sister's and cousin's dresses when young but never acted on it (girl part of my lizard brain . . . saying hello). I went on to socialize male (guy friends, guy past times) joined the military and engage in Alpha Male employment, go married (twice), pro-created and with the exception of one time at the age of 17 never dressed en femme until last year (32 years later). Behaviorally I may have been supressing my "girl lizard brain" but she was still there and when she did arrive it was a force of nature to the point where I present female about 40% of my time) . . . I have a vocal Girl Lizard Brain. Now behaviorally I was raised male and socialized male. I do not have any male relatives of whom I have heard whispered stories about so the hormone wash and development of the girl lizard brain makes intuitive sense to me . . . but this my belief.

Hugs

[Eringirl]

Hey Isha: alrighty then!! It is a bit early on a Saturday morning for me to respond in a coherent fashion, so let me have a coffee (or 2) and give a chance for my furry little brain to digest this. ;)

Will say though that there is a lot of material out there (e.g. MacLean's model) on the four quadrants of the brain and the lower lambic "reptilian" brain and how they are influenced in development and how they then influence who we are.

Let me get back to ya!

Erin

[Tina_gm]

I'm risking a brain ache with these threads.... lol. I guess based on my own experiences and observations I am on the nature side. My own kids are much different. One far more macho then the other. And THAT was never pushed on either of them.

I have a friend who is gay and was raised in a very traditional catholic Italian family. All 4 siblings are boys. 3 of them standard masculine men as was their father who was a firefighter. I have seen others too who won't mold with their environment.

If a person is geared towards the environment they are raised they will embrace it. If not, they will likely struggle with it. They may adapt to it. They may fake it or even be brainwashed into believing certain things. But something will be amiss if in nature it doesn't line up with the environment.

[GeauxStacy]

Isha,

Love the post. I have had my 3 cups of coffee and can see where you are coming from. :) I myself have thought about this and would have to say I have followed the same path. My girl brain first said hello when I was 13 and did not realize it. Guy brain was in charge for the next 15 years with no issues. Then Stacy said "Hello, Remember me?. For a time I let her speak but then guy brain kicked in again and said whoa partner, you need to make a choice, me or her. I chose guy brain at the time, purged and thought it was just a phase.

The only problem was Stacy never shut up completely. For the next 15 years she would say do not forget about me, but I was fighting with her. When I got on my own this year I finally said "Okay Stacy lets do it". At first it was overwhelming and there were a lot of days of confusion, anxiety, feelings of happiness and comfort, and a whirlwind of other emotions. About two months ago, guy brain did kick in and say okay that is enough. And I almost purged again but something - Stacy maybe - said no, just step back, think about you and how you feel and just let both guy brain and Stacy co-exist.

So while guy brain is still dominate in my case, Stacy still has a voice and is there. I do believe you are correct in your explanation about the lizard brain part of why we are how we are. It is not right or wrong, good or bad and just how it is.

Again, I love this post.

Big Tiger Hugs

Stacy

[samantha rogers]

Wow...I read the whole thing. My brain hurts and my eyes are bleeding. I need coffee badly.
Isha...my God, I just woke up...why do you do this to me? lol
Im opening my eyes, spotting a new entry by gf Isha, and thinking..."oh good! A new anecdote or humorous adventure to enjoy"
But instead....no...its that dreaded 7AM philosophy class that you would have slept through in bed at home, were it not for the fact the professor was sooooo hot.
Sigh...
So, yes...read the whole thing. Do I get a gold star, hot professor?
Lol
But...in a nut shell...yes.
I agree completely.
Oh, btw, I love "girl lizard brain"...tee hee Can we now refer to our GLB?
Ever read The Dragons of Eden, by the late, great Carl Sagan?
Yes. I agree. I totally accept the appraisal, Dr. Isha. :-)
Thank you for the superb analysis and well presented explanation. Your findings neatly match my own not so neat, chaotic, artistic, mental meanderings, ramblings and ruminations on the topic.
Nurture? Dont buy it.
Nature? Go heavy. Buy, buy, buy.
And yes, the personality of each of our "girl lizard brains" would account so clearly for the differences amongst us.
Sigh...
I seem to have been blessed with a very vocal GLB ...(see? We have a newly coined acronym on which to hang our problems! My GID is pronounced, Dr, because my GLB won't shut up!)....
My GLB seems to be equal parts Patti Smith, Ellen Degeneris and Marilyn Chambers each with a drink in their hand. Lol It gets pretty noisy in here sometimes.
Thanks for waking me up, doll.:battingeyelashes::heehee:
Now...about that coffee...

[marshalynn]

Isha, I also believe that when our brain was being developed, the hormone mixture slid a little one way or the other a bit to make us like we are. I was raised as a normal male, but I can remember wearing my mother high heels at the age of 5 years old and liking it and it went on from there and never stopped. This was not something I was talked into doing, it was just the wright and normal thing for me to do, my brain and my internal being told me. Marshalynn

[Alicia S]

n1 Isha, full of content and makes good sense to my way of thinking and scientific background. There's soooo much muddled garbage out there!

but wow you have way too much time on your hands or are a very quick concise typist. You should get out more (lol)

Lizard brain - would that be gecko (for hanging on) or chameleon (to blend in)??

[Alice-V]

That's a rather well round up of information there, Isha. I haven't explored these issues well, so thanks for all the points provided.

The little I can contribute on the scientific side is that genetics does not necessarily mean heredity. That is traits and features may not really run in family. Mutations and gene reassignment occur everytime sex cells are made and new traits may just pop up out of nowhere. So, a minor shift here and there in the genes may be at least in part responsible for a more or less voiceful girl coexisting in a male body (or vice versa for FTM).

And as for my own story... My mother was the dominant figure in our family, dad was, well, more into the spiritual matters, and my older brother sort of took the male role, but it was mother who did it all (being the woman and man of the family). My inner girl probably said her first hello when I was a preschooler digging for skirts in my cousin's drawer when no one was around. Then there would be times I'd rather identify more with female role models than male. During my teenage years I thought I would do anything to be a girl. The urge came and went. Until recently, well... So, I would not give nurture much credit myself. I'm more for genetics/fetal development.

[Claire Cook]

Hi Isha,

We've been waiting for your take on this! Now I know it's my Girl Lizard Brain and I for one am glad it is there for whatever reason :cheer: . So as to the nature - nurture: I think they feed back on each other. Maybe this was your big point, but my GLB just kept picking up on all of those things girls did and wore and tucked them away in her little GLB attic, waiting for the time when I could do them too! (Even if I was unaware of it.) I just sent off a post in Katie's thread about twin studies that might be relevant here.

BTW ... where did you get the idea for the GLB? I love it!

[Teresa]

Isha ,
For me you've got it totally right ! You have left enough flexibility to accommodate most of us ! People who start saying, " Ah But!! " have mostly been covered !
Basically we are stuck with something that exists everyday or comes and goes but it's there for life ! The days of cursing it to go away are wasted breath and soul destroying ! The feeling of shame and guilt is only induced by others so we have to try and convince them that Cding does no harm and possibly makes of us better, happier people !

[Claire Cook]

Teresa,

Your last is such a great point. Let's all heed this!

[NicoleScott]

We all know by now that crossdressing is caused by guitar playing. Case closed.
Wait a sec...... is guitar playing caused by nature or nurture? Back to square one.

Isha, we know that you composed this when you were drunk last night, and programmed your computer to post it early his morning while you slept it off.

[Marcelle]

Hi Nicole,

Darn and thought nobody would catch on to the pre-programed computer trick as a way to sleep off that bender . . . guitar playing now there is an interesting theory :).


BTW ... where did you get the idea for the GLB? I love it!

I always hear about guys thinking with their Lizard Brain so it got me thinking this should not be gender exclusive so why not a "Girl Lizard Brain".

Hugs

Isha

[GretchenJ]

Good morning professor.

i had to get a cup of French roast to get through this one.

After reading this completely three times, I am in agreement with your GLB assessment. Frankly, I really don't understand for me if it was a nature or nurture for me. I did not partake in girl games or activities while a was young, did not really hang out with girls or boys while I was very young, I was a loner as a child, very shy, picked on by my peers. Maybe, it was me reaching out to try anew. I really believe that that there is some sort of chemical imbalance that contributes somewhat to my condition.

so. In essence I am totally onboard with your hybrid approach as to the reasons for what I am.

thanks for writing this post that forced me to take a well needed pause for introspection

[Marcelle]

So I did a Google search . . . you can find anything on Google and found the ever illusive Girl Lizard Brain (for all you naysayers). See photo below :battingeyelashes:

Hugs

Isha

[Ceera]

It would be fascinating to see a medical study of BSTc differences among a range of CD/TG individuals, from the occasional panty wearer to someone with all out gender dysphoria and an overwhelming need to go through SRS and change their gender. It would be a great comfort for many of us in understanding our own desires, and make it so much easier to explain to family and friends why we do what we do, if we could state definitively, "Well, my doctor tested me and he says I have a M/F BSTc ratio of 60%, favoring the feminine, and that's why I like going out dressed like a girl and being accepted as one, even though I don't feel compelled to have sex change surgery." Most likely it's more complicated than that, but wow... that would make explaining ourselves so much easier.

I know in my case, I couldn't blame genetics. There are no individuals in my family history who were ever into cross-dressing or who sought to change their birth gender. I do have one female cousin (daughter of my father's brother) who came out as a lesbian when in her 30's or so, but she is quite happy with dressing and presenting as female - she simply decided to Partner with a mate of the same gender. To the best of my knowledge, all my other relatives were or are quite straight and comfortable in their gender roles.

My parents had a very normal and loving relationship, were openly affectionate with each other, and I was raised in a two-parent home along with my sister. Dad was a perfectly 'normal' male role model who taught me to fish and to go bowling and to do my own car repairs and other 'guy stuff'. The only 'abnormal' things in how I was nurtured was that my mother firmly believed both of her kids should be able to run all aspects of their own households, and shouldn't need to be dependent on someone else to cook and sew and clean their home for them. So my mom made sure that both my sister and I could cook and sew and do our own laundry and do all the other 'girl work' needed for running a home, and my sister also learned along with me all the usual 'guy stuff', like how to fix her car and do woodworking and do home repairs. Gender wasn't an issue when it came to learning skills that could help us to live our lives. Also, my father was somewhat homophobic. Not the sort who would rant against gays as being evil, but he could barely say the word homosexual. He was very uncomfortable talking to anyone about any aspects of sex. So it was my mom who gave me the talk about 'the Birds and the Bees', and who did her best to answer the questions that arose with puberty, and who made written material available to me to explain what she couldn't.

My 'inner girl' first 'said hello' when I was ten or so. As far as I can recall, at that point, aside from being taught there was nothing wrong with a boy learning to sew and cook and do laundry, I wasn't even aware of gender role choices or gay or lesbian stuff, other than the usual expectations based on birth sex. I was doing my laundry in the basement, and everyone else was upstairs and busy doing other things. I had to take a load of my mom's clothes out of the dryer to make room for mine, and I found her slips, bras and girdles 'interesting', to the point where I got undressed and tried them on. Then I quickly took them off again, finished getting my laundry going, and took mom's clothes upstairs so she could fold them and put them away. After that, occasionally I would repeat the experience of trying on mom's girl stuff from the laundry. But neither my mom nor my little sister were all that close to my clothing sizes, so I never considered actually wearing any of it for longer than just trying it on. I also didn't feel at all compelled to try to obtain any of my own girl stuff in my sizes. I do vaguely recall playing with mom's lipstick a few times back then, but no other makeup.

I didn't personally meet or know of anyone who admitted he was gay until I was 14 or 15, so no one else had influenced me to think that it was okay to think about gay sex or cross dressing. That one gay friend of the family was completely in the closet himself, and didn't cross-dress. I'm pretty sure none of his family knew his inclinations, and I would never have guessed if he hadn't admitted it to me. After one brief encounter with him though, I had to admit to myself that there were some males that I found attractive. But I flatly refused to act on any of those impulses after that, because my father would never have accepted the idea of his only son doing anything remotely gay, nor would anyone else in my family, as far as I could tell. You could definitely say that nurturing prevented me from exploring my inner girl back then.

For the same reason, I certainly wasn't going to explore wearing women's clothes, even after I moved out and was on my own. In my early 20's I had one other gay encounter, and had one bisexual male friend that I almost confessed my feelings of affection to, but other than that I remained functionally straight. I tried very hard to live by the gender roles that my birth sex indicated were appropriate and acceptable. I married, fathered a child, and had a fine monogamous relationship with a woman, that lasted over 30 years, until her untimely death this year. We raised our daughter to accept that what mattered about others was their behavior and character, and not their gender roles or sexuality. She was raised to be tolerant of the differences of others.

In my very late teens and early 20's, a few years before I married, my 'inner girl' surfaced again, in the form of my choosing to play several female characters in role playing games like Dungeons and Dragons. I'd create characters of both genders, and found I had a lot of fun playing a girl and making her talk and act as much as I could like a real girl would. That became my one outlet for my feminine aspect, and that has remained with me for the rest of my life, in various forms of roleplay in games and in on-line venues. Until 5 or 6 years ago all of that play was g-rated and non-sexual. Then some of the roleplay did start assuming a sexual nature, but I made it very clear to those that I did adult play with that the activities were only fictional play between the characters, and that in real life I was married and monogamous. My wife and daughter knew about my playing girls in those roleplaying experiences, and accepted it as an outlet for my feminine aspect.

A few years ago, after both of my parents had died, I started to explore wearing panties and other mild cross-dressing. My inner girl had been lusting after ladies boots and pretty skirts and other things for years, and I had been denying her those real-life pleasures. But with my parents gone, I decided to risk it. I admitted after a while to my wife that I was wearing panties under my male clothes, but I didn't try to take it further. She was mildly disapproving of that, but let me do it. Her lack of complete acceptance of that mild under-dressing kept me from taking it further while she was still alive.

When my wife died, I started to indulge my inner girl fully, and to open myself to the possibility of seeking a bisexual path in the remainder of my life. I was in my 50's, and it was pretty late in life to make such a change, yet I had no reasons left not to indulge myself. My 18 year old daughter by that time had admitted to me that while she wasn't yet sexually active with others, her interests weren't defined by strict gender roles. She found some girls as attractive as she found some guys, and she had several friends who were openly gay, bi or lesbian. So I felt safe coming out to her about my being bi-curious and about my interest in cross dressing, and began to do it fully, with her acceptance and support, just as she has my support to follow her heart with whatever relationships she might seek in the future, regardless of her partner's gender. She dresses as a boy sometimes while doing cosplay, so she fully understands me.

Hummm. Maybe for my daughter, it is genetic... Certainly she's been nurtured to follow her heart and make her own choices in life, with my support.

[Claire Cook]

So I did a Google search . . . you can find anything on Google and found the ever illusive Girl Lizard Brain (for all you naysayers). See photo below :battingeyelashes:
Hugs
Isha

Maybe she should be our mascot! How about a name -- Liz-ette? Zarda?

[Mia Brankovic]

Isha...I only have a rudimentary knowledge concerning this issue...WOW...I bow to your intellectual superiority on this One.

I do know that it's usually not one or the other (nature/nurture) but varying degrees of both.

On a personal level (Paragraph 2, Nurture): Sexually, I'm much more relaxed/calm. Also, could you direct me to, or write a thread on BSTc (If I may request that)?

Thank you for a wonderful read, I learned much!
Mia

[Alice Torn]

As Gomer Pyle would say, "Gawwwlly!", and Jed Clampett would say, "I need to do some cipherin." Makes some sense to me. I heard many moons ago, the women have a larger hypothalamas , and can use both sides of their brains, at the same time easier than most men, multi task easier. I would like a brain x-ray and see if mine is similar size, as a bachelor, with no mate, have multitasked often.

[Ressie]

I wish I had the time and patience to read long posts like this. I don't read very fast so I always skip reading more than a couple of short paragraphs.

[Tracii G]

I have to ask why torture yourself with all this analyzing ?

[mariehart]

Very interesting and coherent comments. I always feel the nurture argument falls apart very easily. When you consider that many of us who are TS had conventional male upbringings. Yet we reject our maleness and wish to live or dress/act as females even in overtly patriarchal cultures. Now nurture may have part to play in encouraging fetishes and other sexual behaviour. That's easy to see. But I believe many of those who cling to the nurture explanation are more interested in the social or political implications. Gender neutral toys for children as an example. A pointless effort IMHO.

So for me it's largely nature with I think hormones having a large part to play, particularly when it comes to being TS. The issue of pre natal hormones I read about previously. One explanation suggested that stress in the Mother during the foetus early development can interrupt the flow of hormones that dictate a male or female brain development. I doubt if the science is fully settled on the point but in my own case my Mother became pregnant before she married my Father. Bearing in mind this happened in Ireland during the 1950s at a time when unmarried pregnant women where put in Mother and baby homes and often had their child taken away from them for adoption. She must have been under considerable stress at the time not that she ever spoke about it. Could that have an impact on my development? Possibly.

There may be a genetic aspect but I think hormones are the most likely culprit.

On the other hand I do think the differences between male and female are not as great as many of us believe. The balance of ying and yang as it were. My own belief is that all of us have both male and female characteristics. But because culturally we have tended to separate the male and female roles there's a tendency to assign certain behaviours or interests as male or female. Now with gender equality being high on the agenda. Women are often encouraged to take on formerly male roles. But the opposite is not true. Often professions that were male dominated are now dominated by women. For example Secretaries or Personal Assistants used to be a predominantly male job. Now it's largely female and as such is avoided by men. I came across this myself I started off in a job as an office clerk in an Engineering department. But as time went on they only hired people who could type which meant girls. So the role became largely female. I was the one and only male in that role and as befits the cliché an effeminate one at that. I had to learn how to type and effectively became a PA to an Engineer. No men would take on the job anymore. The medical profession is another example. It's not just nurses, many of the background jobs have become female dominated. It may be only a matter of time before most Doctors are women. Once a job is seen to dominated by women most men avoid it because of course most men don't want to be seen as effeminate or gay even if they might be so inclined. Culturally any perception of being anything less than masculine is still not very acceptable. So it's ok to have a girl who might be considered a tomboy but a boy doing 'girl' things is not.

You can even see it with the reaction of wives to finding out their husband is a crossdresser. They're shocked as they stand there in their trousers and business suit having just come home from their job in a male dominated profession. 'I married a man' they cry 'not a woman. Are you gay?' they ask, without a hint of irony. In our culture women are encouraged to take on formerly male roles, professions and behaviour. They can wear men's clothes without any comment from anyone. But again the reverse is not true. We must keep the masculine mask at all times. Not for us are the 'pretty things'. Many men are comfortable with that but a significant proportion are not. But they cannot express anything feminine in their day to day life. So they secretly wear women's clothes which gives permission to express their true selves. That in my opinion is why many CDs have a clear and discrete separation of male and female personas. It's a way of coping with restrictions placed on men by both women and our society.

That's the way I see it.

[Isabella Ross]

Isha...interesting. I'll have to do some more reading about your theory. However, I think Alice-V made a great point: to the best of my limited knowledge, genetics and hereditary traits are not necessarily the same. We're all quick to agree that all of our physical traits result from genetic expression. Why is it such a stretch to extrapolate this to our mental and personality traits? One other thing: you and several others have made the argument that, "There's no history in my family of crossdressing or transgenderism, so therefore the answer can't be hereditary." Really? I successfully concealed this from every person on the planet for three decades or more. Many of you have done the same. You're telling me that you don't think that your ancestors might have been able to achieve the same thing, and taken their secret to the grave? Particularly in a much more conservative era? Come on.

[bridget thronton]

A very elegant post Isha. Another dimension of this discussion that has fascinated me is reincarnation (while I am not a general believer in reincarnation - it does hold some interesting concepts for me - perhaps not letting go of having been a woman in a former life or prepping for that role in the next). So watch things to read but have not found a lot.

[Allisa]

WOW!, Okay while waiting for my wash to get done and my nail polish to totally dry, I believe in some way (my experience) that nurture is a part of how I developed my GLB, while living in an all female(strong mother, provider) household I was exposed to the teachings of how to be a proper woman(60's) and as my mother taught my sisters the ways of womanhood and this constant exposure was stored away, for now I feel as comfortable and natural to express my GLB. Although I acted and did the natural male things as a boy and a man( the nature part) I was still inherently both genders it just took a long time for my MLB to catch up(mature) to my GLB, which I can now live as a one person being. As far as dressing that is nurture by way of advertising in the media, to which we are exposed every waking moment of our lives, as to how to dress and act in our physical gender thus the confusion and all the other negative feelings one encounters on there journey thru life. My only regret is that I could not totally accept my GLB sooner. Well got to go finish my household chores the day is never long enough.

[Stephanie47]

I cannot believe how many of you logged in so early in the morning or is it late at night. Were you all standing in line waiting for the doors to open for another Black Friday shopping experience? Like banging away on a cell phone or tablet or whatever gizmos you got that I don't have?

Anyway, yes this issue has been beaten to death. I have pondered this for five decades. I think a shrink will analyze this to death. I really think you'd have to track a child at birth and watch his or her development with concealed audio and visual surveillance. For myself I don't have a clue.

But, I have now adopted my wife's theory. It is as valid as any other. And, since she subscribes to it, it works for me. She believes many of us (ME! ME! ME!) have lived a past life and that life (ME AGO! ME AGO! ME AGO!) has affected me! Praise the goddesses! I was a gorgeous clothes hog sexy woman in a past life and SHE (ME) has imprinted all this desire to emulate her. Wait, I'm not emulating her! I am her. She is me! More coffee please!

Anyway, who can disprove that I am not under the guiding influence of a woman from a past life? It makes total sense to me!

[Lynn Marie]

I'm sorry, way too many words on this subject. Give it rest. It tired me out and now I need a rest!

[Isabella Ross]

Uhhh, Stephanie, science is founded on several underlying principles. Foremost among these is that no one has to disprove your theory. The onus is on you to prove it.

[Donnagirl]

Isha,

So it's all in the hypothalamus, eh.... Fight or flight... Frock or jock... You might be onto something there....

[Jackie7]

"young men who experience early sexual arousal either through gender role play or use of female items of clothing "

It is easy to underestimate the importance of imprinting, and even easier to misinterpret and misunderstand the twisty turns it can take during a lifelong dragon chase (nice phrase, Isha). It's the only thing of course, but it is something very powerful, and often suppressed from conscious memory because of the shaming our culture lays onto adolescent sexuality. One is require to take responsibility for forces one cannot understand let alone explain. The argument for "nature" can be seen as a desire to avoid being blamed and shamed by finding a cause that lies outside personal responsibility. My 2 cents.

[Lorileah]

*raises hand* will any of this be on the final?

[Isabella Ross]

"young men who experience early sexual arousal either through gender role play or use of female items of clothing "

It is easy to underestimate the importance of imprinting, and even easier to misinterpret and misunderstand the twisty turns it can take during a lifelong dragon chase (nice phrase, Isha). It's the only thing of course, but it is something very powerful, and often suppressed from conscious memory because of the shaming our culture lays onto adolescent sexuality. One is require to take responsibility for forces one cannot understand let alone explain. The argument for "nature" can be seen as a desire to avoid being blamed and shamed by finding a cause that lies outside personal responsibility. My 2 cents.

That's ridiculous. So imprinting can explain being transgendered? I suppose imprinting can explain sexual orientation as well? Ergo, we're all brainwashed at an early age? Poppycock.

[Jackie7]

Come on Bridgette I didn't say any of that. Imprinting helps explain a powerful interest in female things.

[Teresa]

Jackie and Bridgette, Isha did deal with nurture and imprinting very well, so why fall out over it !
One thing I will add since being on the forum a little imprinting has rubbed off on me or maybe it's given me a little more confidence with Cding ! I think it's a good thing not bad because I'm coming to,terms with it more through that !

I do think that some of made too light of a well written thread, if some are tired of the subject then don't read it or put in caustic comments, to me it makes a lot of sense in a well written way ! Again thanks for that Isha !!

[Katey888]

Nice to see you back with another thesis, professor.. ;)

I like it - it makes a lot of sense to me to... When I was asking the question 'IF it was hereditary' (Rather than 'Do you think it is hereditary..') I was teasing out the ethical perspective rather than the scentific - so thanks for expanding this side of things. :)

A number of important points have come out in this discussion too, I think:


One other thing: you and several others have made the argument that, "There's no history in my family of crossdressing or transgenderism, so therefore the answer can't be hereditary." Really? I successfully concealed this from every person on the planet for three decades or more. Many of you have done the same. You're telling me that you don't think that your ancestors might have been able to achieve the same thing, and taken their secret to the grave? Particularly in a much more conservative era? Come on.

I think this is a really good point and may explain why historical observations (such as diaries or journals) don't seem to have thrown up much about CDing in the common man. But there may be another reason that can sit alongside your theory (I think) and Marie touched on it here:


There may be a genetic aspect but I think hormones are the most likely culprit.


I think it should emphasised that the term 'genetic' doesn't necessarily mean 'hereditary'. Genetic abnormalities can also be caused by a chemical agent (chemical mutagens) or radiation (generally ionising radiation) as well as natural, random mutations - the way science and technology has developed both in the use of chemicals in the past 100 years (as fertiliser, drugs, etc.) and incidental radiation (eg. the nuclear tests of the 1940s-60s) can't be discounted as potential factors in all sorts of health areas - why not a potential factor for this too? It seems fairly definitive now that anti-androgenic chemicals are responsible for the feminisation of male fish and are also suspect in testicular dysgenesis syndrome (a range of male reproductive problems) which is a growing issue in industrialised countries - we just don't know the long term effects of any recent developments either...

I don't get the feeling that many people here are looking for an 'excuse' as to any probable cause - it doesn't really matter what causes it other than at its root, it doesn't seem to just be 'free will' as a choice of pastime (too much stigma - too many societal negatives) - but if the cause was a man-made (irony.. ;)) one rather than natural, that may change how this is both accepted and can have its impact modified in the future... The incidence might increase or diminish...

And why do we torture ourselves with this analysis? Probably for the same reasons humans have wanted to know 'why' about anything and the product of those inquisitive minds is the world we live in today, for better or worse... some of us enjoy exercising our minds - but it's clearly not compulsory... :)

And neither is reading it or having to make a comment - so keep it polite or just keep away...

Katey x

[Adriana Moretti]

You need to write a book....become an author of CD books....I think today you can do those e-books pretty easily..( just an idea)...and another observation because I noticed others say it this time....have you noticed EVERY Sat morning you go all deep?? So while having morning coffee, you fry our brains?? I usually just read and go wow....I cant think right now...its Sat morning.....but the "Girl With The Lizard Brain" was so genius I had to read it and reply....Now I will go finish my fist cup of coffee too

[Jamie Lynn]

Your new Avatar Isha!!!

[Rhian]

I read an article were a particularly political correct couple, had a child and decided it would be gender neutral. The sex of the child was male. The child wore dresses and played with dolls and the politically correct feminist beamed at how gender was a social construct but in reality the child had been wanting to play with boy things but the parent had been discouraging him simply to prove her point. So it seems there has to be at least some element of nature when despite the mother actively seeking to discourage his masculine side, he still wanted to do typical boy things.

[docrobbysherry]

Ok, Isha. Let's start with the GLB, (girl lizard brain). That just------. OMG! U almost did it. Almost roped me into your most insane post!

Since I'm not drinking, I'm out. Just going to wish u luck and hope u feel better soon.

[LilSissyStevie]

Here's a blog post from a while back that debunks a lot of the nonsense surrounding measured gender differences. 'nuff said!

http://sugarandslugs.wordpress.com/2011/02/

[Zylia]

Whether it is genetic, prenatal hormones, nurture or something in the water, most theories on the "origin of transness" suffer from inherent causal reductionism.

As a side note, some people think they have been abducted by aliens at some time in the past. Just because the rest of us know those stories aren't true doesn't make it any less true for them. Funny how our mind works.

[Gillian Gigs]

Being someone who has spent most of their life asking the "why" question, this to me is the most logical reason for why this eclectic group exists. Thank you, I agree with your comments based on my own research into this "phenomenon". The hormones that washed through us making our brains in the womb would have an effect us, then there is the effect of what the hormones are doing now. This thinking will also explain why there are various degrees within this group. This make sense to me, and helps explain this thing I call a "quirk".

[Tinkerbell-GG]

. Just because the rest of us know those stories aren't true doesn't make it any less true for them. Funny how our mind works.

Good point. I actually doubt a scientific reason (if ever found) would help anyone with this issue as the truth is clearly subjective. People believe what they need to believe. It's just human nature to desire a more complex reason for something than say 'a bra in the laundry hamper lead to fulltime crossdressing'. If the nature/environmental explanation was ever proven, would anyone here really want to admit that serious crossdressing started because they were bored/curious/horny? Yet, why are these reasons any less valid than biology?

I like Isha's post though, and the lizard brain surely works for women too, as I know we can be as masculine as the next guy. We just don't seem to compartmentalize these elements of ourselves into a separate identity. I mean, when this GLB pops in and says hello, why is the first thought - 'I must put on a bra and dress and call myself Jane.' Why is this GLB so dang obssessed with the material trappings rather than suggesting y'all go and cuddle a kitten or something?? It would be like my BLB stepping in and I suddenly feel like hunting deer in a cowboy hat. But my masculine side is more about inner strength and leadership than physical presentation.

Okay, huge stereotypes there, I know, but I do love kittens :)

[Stephanie47]

I don't have to prove anything. My theory or is it my wife's theory makes just as much sense as all the dribble on this subject. Heck, there's even a television program on one of the cable channels concerning children you have detailed recollections of the past lives. If science has proof of the reason why anyone is a cross dresser, gay or lesbian then I suppose we can effect a cure, if someone was so inclined to be "cured."


Uhhh, Stephanie, science is founded on several underlying principles. Foremost among these is that no one has to disprove your theory. The onus is on you to prove it.

My theory? Like I said I don't have a clue.

Maybe, when I decided I loved the feel of nylon fabric and put my mother's slips on, I thought a male child does not due this, therefore I must add more women clothing to mask the boy, who should not wear such attire????? Forgive the run on sentence.

Or, maybe when my mother told me several times I was suppose to be a girl, because she and dad already had a first boy son, I needed to kiss up to her by being a pseudo son.

Maybe, there are genes to answer the query.

Maybe, in the womb I was exposed to some sort of chemicals.

Maybe, I do have some sort of dual personality that manifests itself in dressing as a woman.

All I know is society/psychiatrists have decided gays and lesbians are "naturally" born. And, there are men and women who were born into the wrong physical body. I don't believe anyone has really come up with a certified proven reason why this has happened. Part of the reason for stopping persecuting these groups is nobody would really want to endure such discrimination and angst in the real world.

And, so it is with me, the cross dresser. Life would have been a lot easier for six decades if I was not a cross dresser. I did not choose this affliction.

So, my wife's belief in past lives affecting a current life is just as valid as all the dribble I constantly read.

[Marcelle]

Hi all,

WOW . . . I did not expect this amount of response and some very great responses they are . . . THANKS. I do want to reiterate, this is not me saying this is the way it is and you have to believe it but more so this is what I have found in my own studies and it makes sense to me. What makes sense to you may be different be it past lives, alien abductions, nature, genes or you just don't care. So no harm no foul if you don't agree but I am set on my path to understand as much as I can about being TG (hence all my social experiments).

Another distinction I would like to make is that my GLB hypothesis is not what causes the dressing. I believe the brain is more ordered female and as such drives a TG to explore that side of gender according to the socially defined concept of what it means to be a woman. This could explain why there is such a huge variety in dressing behaviors. Some here dress according to their concept of femininity as that what makes them feel good (e.g., fetish dressing vs Plain Jane) and to act in their definition of what it means to be a woman (e.g., doing housework, shopping, getting nails done). We (TGs) were for the most part not socialized as girls/women (nature) so our understanding is limited to what we observe (i.e., we never lived it) from the girls/women around us. So if the GLB is active some may just go with a concept they remember and makes them feel good (their definition of being femme) others might want to push the boundary and explore outside of the initial concept of being femme and enter day to day functioning en femme. So in effect you are seeing an interaction between nature (brain structure) and environment.


. . . Im opening my eyes, spotting a new entry by gf Isha, and thinking..."oh good! A new anecdote or humorous adventure to enjoy"
But instead....no...its that dreaded 7AM philosophy class that you would have slept through in bed at home, were it not for the fact the professor was sooooo hot.
Sigh...
So, yes...read the whole thing. Do I get a gold star, hot professor?

GOLD STAR for Sammie! :cheer:


. . . Lizard brain - would that be gecko (for hanging on) or chameleon (to blend in)??

Hi Alicia . . . LOL I am going to go with chameleon :)


Isha,

So it's all in the hypothalamus, eh.... Fight or flight... Frock or jock... You might be onto something there....

Hi Donna . . . LOL . . . Love it!


*raises hand* will any of this be on the final?

Hi Lorileah only one question.

If a TG travelling in a eastward direction in a HUMVEE at 100 kph passes a store advertising LBDs on sale but it takes 20 minutes for her GLB to scream "Hey LBDs on sale!!!" but the nearest off ramp is 150 kilometers away . . . How long will it take the TG with GLB in the HUMVEE to get to the store and buy the LBD? :battingeyelashes:


...and another observation because I noticed others say it this time....have you noticed EVERY Sat morning you go all deep?? So while having morning coffee, you fry our brains?? I usually just read and go wow....I cant think right now...its Sat morning.....but the "Girl With The Lizard Brain" was so genius I had to read it and reply....Now I will go finish my fist cup of coffee too

Hi Adriana,

LOL . . . I normally do an early morning run on Saturdays and that is when I tend to get a bit introspective unless I have chase to Husky through the woods because he decided not to come back . . . then introspection goes out the door. Glad you enjoyed the GLB. :)


Ok, Isha. Let's start with the GLB, (girl lizard brain). That just------. OMG! U almost did it. Almost roped me into your most insane post!

Since I'm not drinking, I'm out. Just going to wish u luck and hope u feel better soon.

Hi Sherry,

Darn it . . . almost is not good enough. I will have to try harder next time :heehee:


. . . However, I think Alice-V made a great point: to the best of my limited knowledge, genetics and hereditary traits are not necessarily the same. We're all quick to agree that all of our physical traits result from genetic expression. Why is it such a stretch to extrapolate this to our mental and personality traits?

Hi Bridgette,

Traits which have a genetic predisposition tend to be physical in humans and for the most part not behavioral. Inherited behavioral traits can be seen is some animals . . . for example my Husky's instinct to pull or a cat puffing out it's fur in response to a threat. Francis Galton was a pioneer in the area of Behavioral Genetics in the 19th century to explain a genetic link to behavior (twin studies) however this field of research died out in the 20th century as it became apparent that environment was more responsible for behavioral traits expressed in humans. Now an area of psychiatric genetics todays has found a genetic link to disorders like schizophrenia, bi-polar disorder and alcoholism but has found nothing in relation to TG. However, the literature does agree that most behavioral traits are learned after birth.

The other area Alice V touched on is that not all traits tend to be genetically inherited (i.e., gene mutations). Gene mutations occur in two ways: they can be inherited from a parent or acquired during a person’s lifetime. Mutations that are passed from parent to child are called hereditary mutations or germline mutations (because they are present in the egg and sperm cells, which are also called germ cells). This type of mutation is present throughout a person’s life in virtually every cell in the body. Mutations that occur only in an egg or sperm cell, or those that occur just after fertilization, are called new (de novo) mutations. De novo mutations may explain genetic disorders in which an affected child has a mutation in every cell, but has no family history of the disorder (some examples of de novo mutations include some types of muscular dystrophy, haemophilia and type 1 neurofibromatosis). Other gene mutations occur after birth as a result of exposure to certain environmental toxins (e.g., radiation). The thing I have found is that most genetic based literature talks about disorders, disease and whatnot. I cannot for a moment believe that being TG is a disorder or disease caused by genetics (inherited or de novo).

That is why the hormone wash makes better sense to me. The brain structure is different causing the GLB to drive the behavior. Now if you environment you are raised in predisposes you to dressing then it is plausible we are seeing a interaction effect between nature (GLB) and nurture (environment). However if the GLB is extremely vocal it is unlikely that environment will make a difference as she is going to want out. This could explain why men who are raised very macho still go on to try and explore their femme side (strong GLB). On the other hand if you have a less vocal GLB but your environment is more femme it gives the ability to express the GLB and learn behavior associated with being a woman.

Hugs all and thanks again for your responses. :)

Isha

[Stephanie Julianna]

I have always said that my female side was always a part of me since I cannot rember a time, at least from the age three that I did not want to dress and be with girls. With that being said, the question of nurture is still out there. As a very young child, my parents always fauned over my sisters and female cousins raving about their dresses and hair and how pretty they looked. That combined with the fact that until high school, most of my circle of friends were girls. I lived on a street in a Long Island town that only had girls that were my age. There were a few brothers of theirs but they were much younger. So I played hop scotch, jumped rope and played other girl games a lot. I was tough to beat once I got the hang of it. Once I created a challenge with them that ended up with me wearing a red chiffon over satin party dress that belonged to the girl next door. Since I was never a big kid, it fit perfect. We played games at her house all afternoon since the challenge was to see how long I could last (HA HA) in a dress. It was actually the first time I wore an age appropriate dress that fit since my sisters' dresses were for high school girls and I was in fifth grade at the time. I was not a girly boy but preferred the company of girls to boys and still do to this day. My wife thinks that I went toward crossdressing to garner my parents attention but if that is true than why didn't I come out to them? Actually I did dress once for my mother, a long story, and she "poopooed" it as a passing phase that I would get over. We never spoke of it again. So what is my take on "nurture-nature"? I still think that for me it was nature (wife still says nurture. However, I am sure that there are many girls out there that can fall into the nurture category. The variety of possibilities must be endless.

[Michelle Deere]

Sorry Isha, no earth shattering response from me. Only to say I loved reading your OP and agree wholeheartedly with your theory.
I have however, decided to not to pursue the "why", but rather concentrate on the here and now and learn to accept myself and this part of me.
Michelle

[Mia Brankovic]

"Oh my...I'm being torn between Science and Stephanie's position:

Based strictly on the theatrical value, Stephanie's theory sounds more lucrative: It would make for a better story...It's got Love, a Goddess', a gorgeous clothes hog sexy woman, and the Surreal-ness of fate...I mean, if we thro' in a chariot race...we may have something?"

Mia


I cannot believe how many of you logged in so early in the morning or is it late at night. Were you all standing in line waiting for the doors to open for another Black Friday shopping experience? Like banging away on a cell phone or tablet or whatever gizmos you got that I don't have?

Anyway, yes this issue has been beaten to death. I have pondered this for five decades. I think a shrink will analyze this to death. I really think you'd have to track a child at birth and watch his or her development with concealed audio and visual surveillance. For myself I don't have a clue.

But, I have now adopted my wife's theory. It is as valid as any other. And, since she subscribes to it, it works for me. She believes many of us (ME! ME! ME!) have lived a past life and that life (ME AGO! ME AGO! ME AGO!) has affected me! Praise the goddesses! I was a gorgeous clothes hog sexy woman in a past life and SHE (ME) has imprinted all this desire to emulate her. Wait, I'm not emulating her! I am her. She is me! More coffee please!

Anyway, who can disprove that I am not under the guiding influence of a woman from a past life? It makes total sense to me!

[Isabella Ross]

Isha, the theory you support has credibility. I think we can all agree that A) conclusive answers are not yet known and B) hormonal abnormalities and genetics are the two most likely causes, as opposed to environmental causes (although I'll concede that environment may play a role in encouraging someone who is predisposed at birth to be transgendered.

However, I'll add this: there are many small pieces of the puzzle that, when taken together, make a strong case for genetics as the determining influence for transgenderism in the fetus, long before hormones can play a role. Hopefully, some day, someone will be able to put the pieces together. Here's a small sampling:


1. Gender identity disorder in twins: a review of the case report literature.
Heylens G1, De Cuypere G, Zucker KJ, Schelfaut C, Elaut E, Vanden Bossche H, De Baere E, T'Sjoen G.
Author information

Abstract
INTRODUCTION:
The etiology of gender identity disorder (GID) remains largely unknown. In recent literature, increased attention has been attributed to possible biological factors in addition to psychological variables.
AIM:
To review the current literature on case studies of twins concordant or discordant for GID.
METHODS:
A systematic, comprehensive literature review.
RESULTS:
Of 23 monozygotic female and male twins, nine (39.1%) were concordant for GID; in contrast, none of the 21 same-sex dizygotic female and male twins were concordant for GID, a statistically significant difference (P=0.005). Of the seven opposite-sex twins, all were discordant for GID.
CONCLUSIONS:
These findings suggest a role for genetic factors in the development of GID.
© 2011 International Society for Sexual Medicine.


2. Reuters News Service 10/20/2003

Refuting 30 years of scientific theory that solely credits hormones for brain development, UCLA scientists have identified 54 genes that may explain the different organization of male and female brains. Published in the October edition of the journal Molecular Brain Research, the UCLA discovery suggests that sexual identity is hard-wired into the brain before birth and may offer physicians a tool for gender assignment of babies born with ambiguous genitalia.

"Our findings may help answer an important question - why do we feel male or female?" explained Dr. Eric Vilain, assistant professor of human genetics and urology at the David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA and a pediatrician at UCLA's Mattel Children's Hospital. "Sexual identity is rooted in every person's biology before birth and springs from a variation in our individual genome."

Since the 1970s, scientists have believed that estrogen and testosterone were wholly responsible for sexually organizing the brain. In other words, a fetal brain simply needed to produce more testosterone to become male. Recent evidence, however, indicates that hormones cannot explain everything about the sexual differences between male and female brains.

Vilain and his colleagues explored whether genetic influences could explain the variations between male and female brains. Using two genetic testing methods, they compared the production of genes in male and female brains in embryonic mice - long before the animals developed sex organs.

To their surprise, the researchers found 54 genes produced in different amounts in male and female mouse brains, prior to hormonal influence. Eighteen of the genes were produced at higher levels in the male brains; 36 were produced at higher levels in the female brains.

"We didn't expect to find genetic differences between the sexes' brains," admitted Vilain. "But we discovered that the male and female brains differed in many measurable ways, including anatomy and function."

In one intriguing example, the two hemispheres of the brain appeared more symmetrical in females than in males. According to Vilain, the symmetry may improve communication between both sides of the brain, leading to enhanced verbal expressiveness in females.

"This anatomical difference may explain why women can sometimes articulate their feelings more easily than men," he said.

Overall, the UCLA team's findings counter the theory that only hormones are responsible for organizing the brain.

"Our research implies that genes account for some of the differences between male and female brains," noted Vilain. "We believe that one's genes, hormones and environment exert a combined influence on sexual brain development."

The scientists will pursue further studies to distinguish specific roles in the brain's sexual maturation for each of the 54 different genes they identified. What their research reveals may provide insight into how the brain determines gender identity.

"Our findings may explain why we feel male or female, regardless of our actual anatomy," said Vilain. "These discoveries lend credence to the idea that being transgender --- feeling that one has been born into the body of the wrong sex -- is a state of mind.

"From previous studies, we know that transgender persons possess normal hormonal levels," he added. "Their gender identity likely will be explained by some of the genes we discovered."

Vilain's findings on the brain's sex genes may also ease the plight of parents of intersex infants, and help their physicians to assign gender with greater accuracy. Mild cases of malformed genitalia occur in 1 percent of all births - about 3 million cases. More severe cases - where doctors can't inform parents whether they had a boy or girl -- occur in one in 3,000 births.

"If physicians could predict the gender of newborns with ambiguous genitalia at birth, we would make less mistakes in gender assignment," said Vilain.

Lastly, Vilain proposes that the UCLA findings may help to explain the origin of homosexuality.

"It's quite possible that sexual identity and physical attraction is 'hard-wired' by the brain," he noted. "If we accept this concept, we must dismiss the myth that homosexuality is a 'choice' and examine our civil legal system accordingly."

The UCLA study was supported by the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development, the National Science Foundation and with start-up funds from the UCLA Department of Urology. Vilain's co-authors included Phoebe Dewing, Steve Horvath and Tao Shi, all of UCLA.

Molecular Brain Research, Oct. 21 issue, Vol. 118, pgs. 82-90.

[Marcelle]

Hi Bridgette,

I am not saying genes are not a potential but these are two studies (which I have read) and have yet to convince me. In one study the case of twins authors cannot point out which genetic factors are culpable they extrapolate that it may be genetic. It is also plausible that hormonal washing may occur and be more selective when it comes to fraternal twins. Specifically the hormonal wash may have occurred early in egg development and affect on one of the dizygotic twins may have been greater than the other. However of the monozygotic were washed early in the development (pre-split) this could explain the concordance for GID. Not saying this is the case but there is always the possibility but the authors did not explore that in the paper.

The second paper is extrapolating from mice to humans and while this is sound scientific practice they have yet to identify these genetic markers in humans. In addition they don't discount the hormonal wash theory but posit that genes may predispose some to the hormonal wash during the development of the limbic system (on that I can agree).

However, I still going to stick to my belief about the hormone changes and limbic system development as it makes more sense to me at present. Not discounting genes as the sole reason . . . just not convinced by the science yet.

Hugs

Isha

[Teresa]

Isha,
I don't want to side track the thread too much but has any research been done on primates as our nearest descendants ?
I apologise that maybe I should have done some research but are humans the only ones to have this level of gender anomalies ?
I've always been intrigued by the fact that after WW1 the birth rate for males in France was much higher until a natural balance of male to female was achieved . So what influences the reproductive system to achieve that ? I also read in a paper that homosexuality varies depending on the the birth rate ! I have doubts about that one because some countries struggle to control their birth rate !
I suppose the point I'm making is are the differences in the brain arbitary or is there something in natural selection ?

The bottom line is we are not lying when we say we can't help our Cding. we are somewhere between male and female ! The feelgood chemicals released by our dressing are superfluous to where we are on the gender line !

[Meghan]

Hi Isha,

A very thought-provoking post. I have been away from this forum for almost 2 years and it's refreshing to return to such a unique and well thought-out perspective.

I've been dealing with my duality since I was little - it emerged around kindergarten or first grade. However, without a doubt my female side is by far the most primal - my male side is more controlled and abstract/aesthetic/contrived. I don't think I will ever know if that's a result of genetics or nurture...but it is what it is.

Now I have something new to think about!

Meghan

[Kate Simmons]

I could've come back with a long convoluted observation but decided to take the easy route by saying "Just call me Liz." :battingeyelashes::)

[Claire Cook]

Isha,

Thanks again for this very thoughtful post! Let's accept the CD / TG / TS spectrum we are part of, and the range of GLB's that we have.(IMHO, that we are lucky to have!)

Hugs,

Claire

[Katie Russell]

Hi

For this those of you with the time I think it was worth researching epigenetic. It seems that these little markers on our DNA can have a huge impact on who we are. Scientist believe they could be responsible for sexual orientation so why not gender variation.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/10369861/Epigenetics-How-to-alter-your-genes.html

Katie

I was thinking about it further and just wanted to add to my previous post. In the article they talk about the epic-markers being used to either turn on or off the gene but also adjust the volume. That would account for the differing spectrum from full transition to mild CDing if it can affect the 'gender' gene. I read in another article that scientists believe that the epi-marker maybe responsible for changing sexual orientation, the so called 'gay gene'. It is obviously a new science but does seem to have some explanation of why we are as we are as the maker can be turned on not only in the womb but by other life events. I'm no scientist and would love to hear from anyone who has an alternative view.

Katie

[Alicia S]

i'm not specifically genetics trained but I am a biologist. From my limited perspective I find it highly unlikely that these issues are controlled by a single gene (even making a huge assumption that the cause is only genetic in the first place!) Developmental thinking shows much more flexibility to explain complex issues and covers ranges rather than black/white gene on/off.

Alicia

[Nikkilovesdresses]

I really believe that that there is some sort of chemical imbalance that contributes somewhat to my condition.

I don't drink coffee, so have no excuse for being dopey, but here goes anyway.

Gretchen's chemical imbalance theory is both right and wrong IMO. It's right in that chemicals are the fuel that run the brain - water's a chemical if it comes to that - but it's only societal conditioning which tells Gretchen that her blend of chemicals (actually it's the brain isn't it, rather than the chemicals?) are out of balance.

Homosexuality between men was entirely normal in Ancient Greece, and there was a special term for homosexuality between an older and a far younger man - I can't remember the word because I don't drink coffee - but it was seen as both normal and healthy. Are we saying Gretchen that all the men in Ancient Greece were chemically imbalanced? If so, I wish some of today's architects could be similarly imbalanced.

Isha's theory, spectacularly caffeine-influenced though it may be, doesn't bring me any closer to understanding why I love girls' clothes. If anything I tend to believe in nurture over nature, since I was raised largely by my mother, with a fairly lousy and frequently absent father, and a lot of time to myself to explore possibilities. Nowhere yet on this site have I read any mention of Oedipus Complex, but in my case it would explain a lot. I sided with my mother from an early age, and especially so from age 10 onward, when my father left (without saying goodbye to me- hello Dr Freud) and although in a sense I became the man of the house, I was a sheltered, gentle kid and machismo was never my thing. I never forgave my father and I was definitely something of a mummy's boy. What made me start trying on her underwear I'll never know, but I think I began to identify more with women than men as a result of the absent father.

There were macho role models, as Isha had, but they were only ever temporarily present- mum was discreet in her many liaisons and basically I was with her most of the time I wasn't in school. We lived remotely so as an only child I grew up independent and focused on her, and I've always supposed it was that female influence which made me the way I am. I've always felt more comfortable with older people and still many of my closest friends are a generation older than me.

If I'm imbalanced chemically, which I dispute, at least I'm not crippled with the guilt and shame which some of us seem to feel- and for that I am very grateful. I was raised to treat people kindly, to look for the fun in life, and to please myself up to the point that it negatively affects others. Sometimes I have gone beyond that limit, it's true. But I don't think it's because of any chemical imbalance, I've always put it down to the anger, the chip on the shoulder (particularly against authority) which I got from my resentment towards my father.

I have found great comfort in crossdressing, like many others, and the only other theory I have about its cause is that my mother has expressed several times that she wanted a girl. I know she loves me deeply, and I'm not insecure about that, but we do take things on, we are influenceable and perhaps I just want to please mummy. The irony is that mum is not sympathetic to gays or deviants from society's norm. Definitely no Greek blood there. And that in a nutshell is the paradox- part of me wants to be her little girl, but I know she'd hate to see me crossdressed or come out as gay. Luckily for all of us I met a woman who I love and want to remain with- my greatest hope being that she will come to accept my CD comfortably. At that point I'd have to look pretty hard to find something about my life that wasn't ideal.

Isha, I like you greatly, but I'm sorry dear- I'm not taking up coffee just to please you.

[Tina_gm]

Nikky@ #58- I am not among those who had no early nurturing aspects which MADE me this way. If anything, it was reversed. I had a wonderful father. He was a mans man in the sense of family 1st no matter what. He was not a physically large man... but when it came to his responsibilities, he was second to none. He was never too busy for me. We had all kinds of time together on weekends when he wasn't working. He made time for me on weekends, he would work early then him and I would go do things. I cannot say enough good things about my father. My mother on the other hand... but yet here I am. If anything according to the nurture arguments, I would disown any crossdressing based on my past and how I was raised. Because of my past, I should never even want to, but I do. Gender issues just like sexual orientatiation issues come from birth. We are what we are. It is nurture that helps with when and how we accept these things IMO

[AngelaYVR]

I just wanted to chime in and say that my great uncle Tommy died wearing a pair of lacy knickers. It was spoken of in later years with incredulous looks and mild laughter. But up until that point, nobody had a clue.

[Lorileah]

has any research been done on primates as our nearest descendants ?
I apologise that maybe I should have done some research but are humans the only ones to have this level of gender anomalies ?

Depends on your definition? When a male wolf decides to not fight for top dog position and urinates or rolls over...is that a gender anomaly? Since you bring up primates there are some who take on the female role in both societal presentation And/or sexual. Are they gay? Well the same monkeys have been seen trying to copulate with a female in the pack. So being anthropomorphic on these studies doesn't work. That is why it is also difficult to prove the nature vs nurture arguments. If you never KNEW there was clothing for women, would you still want to wear it?

Arguments of CDs vs TSs is different. Would a CD know what they are missing if they didn't see it? A TS on the other hand would still feel that something isn't right, clothing aside.

[Tinkerbell-GG]

Nikki, your story is exactly like my H's. He's firmly in the 'nurture' camp, too. Having little children myself, I can say that some of the things kids get up to make a little boy finding comfort and identity in his mother's clothing outright boring. Seriously, the nurture path to crossdressing is a fairly easy one to map so I'm always a little surprised at the reluctance for so many to admit it DOES happen. Most boys had a mother. Most mothers wore women's clothing. Its not a difficult thing to start with the right circumstances and motivation. In my H's case, he was outright rejected by his father and his mother took up the slack. He worshipped her, yet she had a natural closeness with his sister as they could wear the same outfits etc. He felt rejected again every time they connected this way, so the day his mother dressed him in his sisters clothing becasue his were dirty, is the day he felt included. He even admits now how silly that is as his mother and sister thought he looked silly. But aside from the mortifying embarrassment a typical boy feels, he also felt a part of their world for a second. The only world he knew, I might add, and the one that made him feel safe and not rejected. It became a self soothing habit (still can be) but he rarely dressed until puberty when it became sexual.

To say my H's crossdressing is genetic is like saying a girl who cuts herself because she was sexually abused has a genetic condition. SOME crossdressing might be inborn, but some is born of life experience and this seemed the most logical and available coping strategy at the time. Doesn't make it any less real or determined than a GLB - it just is.

[Marcelle]

Tink,

Then how do you explain all like myself who had a relatively normal upbringing when it came to male/female gender roles. My uncles were ever present in my upbringing . . . kind and gentle mountain men type who never forced me to be a boy but to be a good man. Yes, I liked my sisters clothing from an early age but it was not because I saw them get dressed or watched my mother get dressed that I like to dress now. If it were truly just nature then every man who was raised purely in a female home (mothers, sisters) with little or no male role models or were rejected by their fathers would be cross dressing today and that is not the case. Yes I believe the environment you grow up in has a potential to shape the person you become but there has to be a predisposition for that behavior somewhere be it genetic, hormone wash or neurochemicals. I don't believe little boys who had no desire to dress as the opposite gender wake up one day and say "Hey, I like that pretty dress and I think I'll give it a fling and see how it feels" and even if they do, and there is no innate desire they will most likely take it off and never put it back on as it would feel weird.

So sorry . . . still can't buy the "nurture" only hypothesis.

Hugs

Isha

[Tinkerbell-GG]

Isha, actually I think I can agree with the predisposition idea. I just don't agree this disposition is necessarily about crossdressing. My H is pretty sure if it hadn't been crossdressing it would have been something else, depending on the circumstances. He's always been highly sensitive to his environment and had the situation been abusive or perhaps involved his mother disappearing instead of his father, who knows. Maybe he'd be into BDSM instead? :). But his overall mental make up seems to require an 'out' so to speak, both sexually and as a self soothing technique. I have a child who is very similar to his father - not so that he's into crossdressing, but his overly sensitive mind will often turn him into a cartoon character when he's very stressed and I've had teachers tell me he spent all day as a robot or something. Is this the same as what my H went through? Who knows, though my H relates heavily to those anxious feelings my son suffers so there's definitely something innate causing them both to seek comfort in the identity of others.

Is this the only reason someone crossdresses?? Highly doubtful. I personally think there are as many reasons as there are men who do it - and maybe there's a common thread somewhere among you all. In the end, it won't matter much what we think as this is all just online waffle that will be lost in cyberspace come tomorrow. But at least we all cared enough to try and understand this crazy part of our lives. :) x

[PaulaQ]

I agree with your idea of the 'GLB', Isha. Maybe not quite so simplistic as that, but there are parts of your brain that are wired up needing to express femininity - whatever that means within a particular culture.

I think behavioral explanations for CDing are largely nonsense. If we are so influenced by our upbringing that we start wearing mommy's clothing, why can't behavior modification get rid of this? I'll tell you why - its for the same freaking reason we couldn't teach people not to be gay or lesbian. Because it's not a learned behavior.

There is no reason to think gender identity or expression are any different than sexual orientation and identity in terms of their ability to be influenced by behavioral influences. Indeed many of us have faced massive and terrifying social consequences and punishments for these behaviors. Do we stop? No. It just screws us up as we internalize hatred. This is more or less EXACTLY what happened to gays and lesbians. Its cruel, its a pack of lies, and it needs to stop right freaking now.

The theories that try to explain homosexuality via a behavioral model are rejected by modern science. But we wanna hang on to these ideas for gender? Well, OK then...

[Marcelle]

Hi Tink,

I can agree with you on this. As I stated in my OP, I don't say this is the sole reason and even science (genetics, biology, psychology) cannot agree on things and highly unlikely they ever will. In my case, the concept of a limbic system more ordered female makes intuitive sense to me for me. Specifically, there is something about me that is wired "female" but not 100 percent hence my requirement to time share. I still know I am male, feel male, interact male and even when I am presenting as Isha, I am still me (core personality) but there is a small part of my psyche which requires the ability to present female to the world. The presentation (i.e., how I dress, act, walk, talk) is not the compulsion for me. I present as I do because it allows the world to see me as female (well at least a close approximation) and allows me to interact in the world thusly. If women were dressing in baggy jeans, work boots and checked flannel shirts, no make-up, hair pulled back in a pony tail as a matter of standard convention, it is likely that is how I would present. My need to be and present female is predicated on whatever amount of time my GLB decides to steer the ship. Conversely when my "guy side" is at the helm I dress as a guy (i.e., I don't underdress, feminize my male wardrobe or for that matter even wear both earrings in my ears - just one).

However we (humans) are complex creatures and when it comes to behaviors there is truly no "one size" fits all. Cross dressing for some could simply be an expression of emotion/stress reduction/soothing based on recapturing the feel good moment that clothing was put on for the first time. It might have no biological drive short of neurotransmitters telling the brain "this feels good so do it again" and if your environment provides the opportunity to do this over and over again, then it could be construed as nurture. So there is no true disposition here just a collage of neurochemicals and environment (e.g., being around women/girls with more socialization leaning toward female than male) telling the mind this feels right. :)

Hugs

Isha

[Katie Russell]

Hi

Maybe everyone is right.

To quote from the World Health Organisation:

http://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index2.html

Behavioural genetics research aims to determine the role genes may play in shaping human behaviour. ‘Behavioural phenotypes’ are those patterns or sets of behaviours that are dependent on genotype. Animals, including humans, are born with innate behaviours so that they react instinctively to some environmental stimuli in a way that enhances their prospects for survival. Genes are increasingly being considered as candidates for complex behavioural traits such as sexuality and gender differences.

Behavioural traits, such as aggression or sexuality, are extremely complex and cannot be explained by one gene or genetic component. Cultural norms pertaining to gender roles and sex-related behaviours fluctuate and change with time as well as across cultures. Moreover, the existence of a gene does not guarantee the expression of that gene; indeed, expression is the product of a complex network of other genetic, developmental, biological and environmental factors. It is this complex network of interactions that constantly shape and define behaviours. Any genetic component that is found to be linked to a complex behavioural trait at most indicates a probability of that behaviour manifesting, and not that the behaviour will definitely occur. Behavioural genetics research is still in its infancy, and its capacity to identify any genetic component of behaviours, such as sex -specific conduct, is limited.

If you add that to my previous post on epigenetics then you may have an explanation of why it can be both nature and nurture. I did a bit of searching and came up with this fascinating TED talk. Have a watch and decide for yourself if we are born as we are or made or a combination of both.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuahzV12mi0

Katie