My teenaged daughter's observations

[Ceera]

My teenaged daughter (18) made some interesting comments about the en-femme me, Ceera, recently:

"Ceera is very particular about her outfits and accessories. She wants everything to look just right and to look good together. She spends lots of effort making her nails and makeup and hair look good. She loves nice high heeled shoes or boots and nice clothes. She's particular about her jewelry, purse and other accessories, and they have to coordinate with her outfit. She wears skirts and heels far more often than pants. She pretty much fits the stereotypical feminine type."

Then she observed that she, on the other hand, was happy to slop around in t-shirts, jeans and flats, and doesn't care much how her hair looks. She also hates wearing high heels. I commented back that in her case, she didn't need all the stereotypically feminine trimmings to get people to accept that she was a girl. One look at her face and figure was sufficient to inform people that she was female, no matter what she was wearing.

I cross dress, but I'm not transgendered. My 'femininity' comes entirely from the breast forms, hip pads, clothes, wig and makeup that I put on when I transform myself, and from my reasonably good attempts at speaking with a feminine voice. For me it is sufficient to appear to be female occasionally, and I have no desire to alter my body to make that femininity a permanent change. It's just fun, for me, to become a girl sometimes, and be accepted as one. I only go out en-femme to one specific gay nightclub so far. I haven't had the courage yet to go to a mall or a grocery store or to do other more 'normal' activities as a girl. Last night while en-femme at that gay nightclub, I thought about my daughter's comments about me, as I observed the others around me.

At one point there were two transgender ladies and myself on the dance floor with three genetic girls. All three GG's were in pants and flats or low-heeled shoes, while the transgender or cross dressed ladies all wore high heels and dresses or skirts. And in this case I'd have to say it definitely wasn't because the GG's were lesbian - one of them was the wife of one of the transgendered ladies, and another was that transgendered lady's married daughter, who had her husband with her at the club.

Looking at others in the club, I observed that all of the four other obvious (to me) transgendered or cross dressing ladies were in dresses or skirts and heels, while the majority of the genetic girls wore pants and flats or low-heeled shoes. And I've also had several complements over the past few months from GG's who said that I walk and dance in heels far better than they ever could.

I guess where I am going with this is that when we CD's and TG's dress, it seems we tend to hyper-feminize. We try so hard to 'get it right' that we mark ourselves by looking 'more feminine' in some aspects than the genetic girls do - even if we have other faults such as too-masculine facial features or arms or shoulders or voices that give us away. It seems to me that we try to compensate for our less-feminine aspects by trying to make what we can control more 'feminine' than most GG's do. My feminine wardrobe does include some nice pants suits and sexy leggings jeans and dressy slacks that I can make equally nice female outfits with. I've enjoyed shopping for those pants as much as I have for shoes, skirts and blouses. Yet when I dress to go out, my mind tends to reject the idea of not wearing a dress or skirt. I get the feeling of "What would be the point of that?"

Does anyone else feel similarly, or seem to see the same trends?

[Crystal Beth]

When CD's go out, someties it is a rare occasion and a super big deal. I do not go out en femme to go shopping but do go to clubs and wish to express my femme side. Jeans and gym shoes will not help me express that but heels and a killer skirt will. When I am going out to a club I am going out to show off. If I were going to a store I would probably dress down to blend in.

[Ceera]

That may be a part of it, Crystal. In my own case, when I go to the club I want to be seen and appreciated. So yes, I tend to want to 'look my best'. It's something I only get to do a few times a month, so I want to 'make it special'.

[Tracii G]

I do think many CD's tend to over do the femme aspect ie: only skirts and dresses/heels.
Myself I don't need a skirt or dresses to feel feminine much less to appear feminine if I go all out 100% enfemme.
I think some are in DADT situations and rarely get the chance to dress and some just have a fantasy about dressing like their Mother so its skirts and dresses.
Its all good don't get me wrong dress as you like but just an observation I have made over the years.
There is no right or wrong way to CD so dress anyway you want.

[Trishpdxcd2]

We are not starting at the same ground zero so it is only natural to dress up more. We are disguising our male self and it takes more to do that.

[Nikkilovesdresses]

Hi Ceera,

Have you asked your daughter for advice on clothes? Sounds like she takes you seriously, unlike many teenagers, and you could a lot worse than ask her opinion. She may suggest a style which would never have occurred to you.

I had a long conversation with a pre-op TS genetic male this summer. She is over 60, though you wouldn't guess it, and was dressed in a simple blouse and skirt, with flats, a small amount of jewelry and little make up. She thought it was important for CDs et al to dress their age, and that some of the CDs strutting around town in black mini skirts and high heels gave the LGBT community a bad rep. I saw her point, but it seemed a bit priggish- each to their own and all that.

I've always gone for an androgynous look- my present avatar is by far the girliest I've ever looked, and if I thought I could pass as a pretty girl I'd girly-up to the max. But I'm 53, kinda jowly, and still quite overweight- and I'm a guy. If I'd been a girl I think I'd have been very feminine indeed. To me CD is about fun, not about proving myself to other people. If it feels good to you to dress very femininely, then blessings be upon you. I just admire you for being yourself.

[Isabella Ross]

Never been interested in androgyny...just seems like fence-sitting to me. Yes, I'm over the top when I dress. Perhaps part of it as, as Trish suggests, that my starting line is way behind the average GG's. Or maybe, as you suggest, Ceera, it's overcompensating. But when I really think about it, I just believe it's because I really want to feel pretty, special and very girly. Why dress to be a tomboy, when I'm already a boy? By the way, I'm really curious why you think of yourself as a crossdresser and not transgendered, and why you refer to the other girls in the club as transgendered. In my somewhat limited Canadian view of our world, I crossdress. Therefore I am transgendered. And proud of it...

[Stephanie47]

I will agree that a natural woman does not need window dressing to express her sexuality and femininity. I have seen some drop dead gorgeous well formed females covered in grease, dirty nails, disheveled hair, sweat, donning hardhat, work boots, filthy jeans and tee shirt. And, they clean up really nice to that gorgeous creature in a little black dress and heels. Yes, I think a woman's femininity is evident even if she does not fit the societal norm of a beauty queen.

As to my personal dressing, I only wear dresses, slips, hosiery and heels so I portray in my mind at least some femininity. I try to not look like a man in a dress. Once upon a time, decades ago, my wife and I were painting our first apartment. She was attired in cut off jeans and a paint splattered tee shirt. The painting took long than it should have, if you know what I mean.

[Judith96a]

Here's my take on it from my situation...
I love wearing skirts and dresses. I love wearing earrings and other jewellery. I also love wearing makeup - principally lipstick & eyeshadow.
Now, if I slop around in jeans and a T-shirt and don't go all out on the makeup then, no matter what else I do, I look like a man. The only thing that works is to go all out and dress as feminine as I can manage.

[Ceera]

My daughter goes clothes shopping with me, when I'm looking for things for Ceera. This is quite a blessing as she's close enough to my size that while I am in guy mode while we shop, I can plausibly claim that the things we are buying are for her. (Though my slipping into a suitable changing room to try things on can be a challenge!) She does give me suggestions and feedback, but most of the time she thinks I have better fashion sense than she has.

[Ceera]

By the way, I'm really curious why you think of yourself as a crossdresser and not transgendered, and why you refer to the other girls in the club as transgendered. In my somewhat limited Canadian view of our world, I crossdress. Therefore I am transgendered. And proud of it...The other two TG ladies on the dance floor with me were both on HRT and in the process of changing their bodies to be female. One said she probably wouldn't go as far as SRS, primarily because of age and financial resources, but her transition was far enough along that her wife had asked her to cut her real hair short for when out in guy mode, and to use wigs in girl mode, because with her long natural hair, breasts and facial figures she 'got ma'am'ed a lot' even when trying to present as male. That lady and the other on the dance floor both referred to themselves as Transgendered.

Of the other four, one I know refers to herself as transgendered and lives full time as a woman, and she as well as two of the others have sufficient breast development and showable cleavage that it's clear they have actual breasts (either from hormones or implants) and aren't using breast forms. The fourth one I honestly couldn't tell if she has altered her body at all, or if she cross-dresses, as I do, and relies on breast forms and pads to feminize her body. Her clothes could have concealed anything, and her face wasn't very feminine. So I classed her as I do myself - a cross-dresser.

I suppose it would have been more accurate to use the term 'transsexual' for the ladies I labeled as transgendered, since the strict definition of transsexual indicates that they desire to change their bodies either partially or completely to other than their birth gender. But I used the term I know those ladies use for themselves, having heard three of them use that term in referring to themselves in conversations with them. I haven't yet met a MtF cross-dressing individual who was in the process of changing their bodies like that, and who referred to themselves as anything other than transgendered.

As for myself, to me, 'Cross Dreser' indicates that while the person may wear the opposite gender's clothing and try to present convincingly as a female (or as a male for FtM cross dressers), that desire to actually change their bodies or that sense of gender dysphoria and a feeling that their birth gender doesn't match what they feel they are isn't necessarily there. I see myself as a a bisexual man, and I have no desire to fully become a woman. I don't feel my birth gender is 'wrong' for me. But I do feel that I also have a feminine side, an 'inner girl' who likes to express herself occasionally. I love expressing the feminine side of my nature when the mood suits me, but I wouldn't want that to be my whole life. It's particularly nice for me to be accepted socially as a female when I am en-femme, even though I know my presentation isn't perfect enough to really 'pass'. My height, shoulder width, arms and facial structure could never be considered truly feminine, though with good clothing selections, careful makeup and a good wig I can look at least as 'feminine' as some genetic girls at the less feminine end of their spectrum of body and facial types.

[bridget thronton]

Very thoughtful post

[Rhian]

Like others have said when cross dressers and it's our chance to dress like women at their most glamorous and most feminine. Women only make the effort to look glamour on special occasions and when they are out in public but often the house is our special occasion so we dress to that standard of dress. It's just like we as men make a lot less effort to look our best when we're just hanging around the house or nipping to the shops for a pint of milk but we do care about looking our best when we have a special occasion or we are going for a night out. Similarly GG care how they look when they go out or have a special occasion but not when just hanging around the house as it just isn't worth the effort; I don't think I've ever seen a girl on a night out ever wearing trousers.

[Ceera]

Maybe it's just that when I go out as Ceera, it's only to that one gay nightclub, where they have a pretty laid back scene. The GG's there, presumably most of them lesbian or bi, since it's a gay bar, almost without exception do wear pants and don't wear heels. I suppose that while it's a safe place for those of us who are CD's or TG's to go and express our feminine side, for a lot of the GG's it's more the 'neighborhood pub' atmosphere - a place they can relax and hang out with their friends. So perhaps the GG's there don't feel the need to dress up?

I don't usually hang out at other nightclubs or bars as a guy or as a girl, so I can't really say what most GG's wear when going out on the town to a bar or nightclub.

[Rhian]

Ahh I see I visit a gay bar quite regularly while not dressed as it's right next to the indie bar which doesn't start to get busy till about one O'Clock and the gay bar has an amazing atmosphere. But the gay bar is very much more clubby than bar like, so people dress to reflect that and the non lesbian girls are often their as part of a night out rather than exclusively for the gay bar. It sounds like we visit different types of establishment that just both happen to come under the umbrella term of gay bar, so we probably have different experiences.

[Teresa]

Ceera,
I agree with you, as I've worn trousers all my life, as a CDer I much prefer to wear a skirt or dress and heels !
I posted a thread a while ago after seeing so many women wearing trousers, the only ones wearing skirts must be CDers !
Sometimes I feel they play their femininity down too much and that's not just seeing it from a CDers point of view !

[AllieSF]

I think that the key words in your daughter's statement are "stereotypical female type". Since we usually want to emulate only a part, and probably for most women, a smaller part, of the overall feminine presentation, we tend to dress up more formally than what most women would do in a similar situation. Why? To me it is obvious because our opportunities to dress up are limited to logistics, family requirements and our degree of trans-ness (for me TG is the umbrella term with us CD's, transvestites, transsexuals and everyone else under that umbrella), we want to portray that part of the femme mystique that attracts us the most. Usually that is portraying the view we most appreciate or admire, overt femininity which usually does not include casual clothes and zero or minimum accessories. I go out a lot and have many opportunities to mix the dressier outfits with more casual ones, but I almost always go for the dressier presentation and am usually dressed a step or two above the rest of the woman that I see at the same venue.

Now, in your case in particular, with you limited outings over time and your single venue, you probably do not get the opportunity to mix and match your outfits. Maybe you can think of it as a person who likes desserts but limits them for whatever reason. That person also really loves ice cream. So, when they finally decide to have dessert, they will most likely mostly chose ice cream over cake, pie, pudding, fruit or whatever. You like the dressier presentation and when given that almost rare chance to get out, you opt for that style. As to who you see at your local gay bar, I agree that is a very closed and specific venue regarding how people dress. When and if you eventually get out to other venues you will quickly see that not all women dress androgynously. Many dress up very nicely, though they may be in the minority when compared to other women.

I think that dressing as you like and accepting any third party reactions, both good and bad, is the way to go. If you are comfortable when out, what more can one ask for? If you ever start going out during the day to run errand, go shopping, see a movie, whatever, you may find yourself dressing down for the time of day and venue. There is still no harm in being a little better dressed than those around you. I used to try to dress as a guy one step above those around me. However, since I started going out a lot dressed as a woman, my male presentation has deteriorated so much that it is probably much worse, or non flattering, than the women's androgynous styles you see at your friendly bar. That sounds like another type of role reversal!

[Danielle Austin]

Maybe it's just that when I go out as Ceera, it's only to that one gay nightclub, where they have a pretty laid back scene. The GG's there, presumably most of them lesbian or bi, since it's a gay bar, almost without exception do wear pants and don't wear heels. I suppose that while it's a safe place for those of us who are CD's or TG's to go and express our feminine side, for a lot of the GG's it's more the 'neighborhood pub' atmosphere - a place they can relax and hang out with their friends. So perhaps the GG's there don't feel the need to dress up?

I don't usually hang out at other nightclubs or bars as a guy or as a girl, so I can't really say what most GG's wear when going out on the town to a bar or nightclub.

Can I ask which club it is in Austin? Sounds like 'Bout Time?

[Michaelasfun]

I agree Ceera. While its fun to dress to the nines, most gals don't do it just to go to the grocery :)

Last outing, I decided to make the usual mundane grocery trip a little more fun by going dressed; I picked a crop sweatshirt, capri sweatpants, sandals, and minimal daytime makeup, and felt more like I fit in than most other times when I've been out in a dress or skirt because I didn't look "over the top".

I do however understand others' points of view that going out should be fun and I enjoy putting on the smoky eyes and skirt too, I just save that wear for more appropo times/places than when I'm popping out for milk :)

[Ceera]

Can I ask which club it is in Austin? Sounds like 'Bout Time?Yes, it is. 'Bout Time II' is the club I go to, usually on Saturday nights between 9 PM and midnight. It happens to be fairly close to my home, so I don't have to drive very far en-femme to go to and from the club. I also like the way it is positioned relative to the other nearby businesses. It's easy to park close to the club and go to and from your car without drawing very much attention from anyone that isn't also there for that club. It is a very pleasant place for a fairly new CD or TG lady to hang out, and the people there have been very welcoming and accepting toward me.

[MissTee]

Amazing! I hope you feel blessed being able to talk to your daughter so openly and have her accept this part of you.

I dress in what to me represents femme. Jeans and T aren't that. In my early dressing days heels were a must, but anymore flats and comfy shoes rule. I still love skirts and dresses, and those are my go to options in most cases.

[Ceera]

Amazing! I hope you feel blessed being able to talk to your daughter so openly and have her accept this part of you.I certainly do feel blessed in the close and trusting relationship that I have with my daughter. She's 18, and throughout her teenage years my wife and I never had issues with her not wanting to talk to us or be seen with us. She liked doing things with her parents and thought we were both 'pretty cool'. I do think my daughter felt closer in many ways to me than to her mom. It was me she would confide in for many personal issues, rather than my wife. And that was well before she had any inkling from me that I was anything other than a 'normal straight guy'.

[suzanne]

I get that we CD's cannot fall back on natural female physical traits to convey femininity to the world. So we do have to try a little harder with what we do have available, namely wardrobe, hair and makeup. But there is such a thing as overdoing it and we need to be aware of what's apppropriate for the activity. Wherever you go, just observe what the women are wearing. For example, you won't see anyone grocery shopping in a LBD and mink coat. Even more mundane dresses are rare there. If you wore slacks, a modest top and maybe 3 inch pumps, you'd be nearly invisible.

[Ceera]

I get that we CD's cannot fall back on natural female physical traits to convey femininity to the world. So we do have to try a little harder with what we do have available, namely wardrobe, hair and makeup. But there is such a thing as overdoing it and we need to be aware of what's apppropriate for the activity. Wherever you go, just observe what the women are wearing. For example, you won't see anyone grocery shopping in a LBD and mink coat. Even more mundane dresses are rare there. If you wore slacks, a modest top and maybe 3 inch pumps, you'd be nearly invisible.Quite true, and in fact I've done a lot of 'girl watching' at my local grocery store with the idea in mind of re-creating the sorts of apparel that the GG's there wear, so that when I am ready to try going there en-femme, I don't stand out like a red rose in a bouquet of white daises. T-shirts or simple blouses, skinny jeans or leggings, and boots or shoes with modest heels seem to be pretty typical here. The hard part is that there are not all that many women my age who shop there, so what I can observe is mostly much younger women.

[Tinkerbell-GG]

Sometimes I feel they play their femininity down too much and that's not just seeing it from a CDers point of view!

Only if you equate femininity with clothing and make up, which most GGs don't. The two are not related. Our femininity is innate and requires no props. We just are. The girl in the flats and trousers feels no less feminine than when wearing a dress. I don't really understand how clothing and wigs etc can make a person feel feminine but I trust this must be the case as so many of y'all say it does.

So trust that GGs aren't downplaying their femininity because they're not wearing traditionally feminine clothing. We just don't need all that to feel authentic and honestly, if men want to take all the uncomfortable, restrictive clothing options from us, I for one won't complain. It is an evil mind indeed who invented pantyhose! :)

[DanaR]

Only if you equate femininity with clothing and make up, which most GGs don't. The two are not related. Our femininity is innate and requires no props. We just are. The girl in the flats and trousers feels no less feminine than when wearing a dress. I don't really understand how clothing and wigs etc can make a person feel feminine but I trust this must be the case as so many of y'all say it does.

So trust that GGs aren't downplaying their femininity because they're not wearing traditionally feminine clothing. We just don't need all that to feel authentic and honestly, if men want to take all the uncomfortable, restrictive clothing options from us, I for one won't complain. It is an evil mind indeed who invented pantyhose! :)
You bring up an interesting point. I used to get all dressed up to reach where I felt feminine, now I don't. I suppose I learned that from my wife. I can achieve where I want to be, by just taking out my posts and substitute a cute pair of earrings, fix my hair a little, a little makeup, flats, a cute top and maybe pants. I used to spend hours, now I can put myself together in less than a half an hour. I'm even talking about going out the door after that.

[Beverley Sims]

Your daughter gave you a heads up, didn't she?
Imade that mistake of being overdressed until I was given the heads up by a complete stranger at that time.