Erf.. *management*

[mechamoose]

So, I'm working with a recruiter who is placing me in a 'Team Lead' role for a crew of ~7 IT guys who do remote support. Not quite 'Helpdesk', but 'remote support'... it is what that company wanted and it pays for.

I have 25 years in this field. I have worked as a consultant for most of that. I have seen and heard pretty much everything, from companies that have money to burn to those who can't spend $100 they didn't plan for. I'm *good* at what I do.

I have been unemployed since August. My hair is now long and can be put up in a 'girl' pony-tail (up high rather than down at the nape). I have been walking around with all 20 nails painted every day. I have been *loving* it. I have been getting compliments on my nails (from GGs), I have not gotten a single word of criticism. Like I said, I have been *loving* it.

I'm now faced with the decision of how I can get 'buy-in' and acceptance from this crew who don't know me from a hole in the wall.. Further, as one who will be their manager. Sure, I can go the TG route which can't be discriminated against, but my professional side is questioning if that is what I should do.

Grr... I know what I WANT. I'm just trying to work out what I should DO.

Feedback is appreciated, sisters!

- MM

[kimdl93]

I face a similar dilemma. I worked from home as a consultant for four years before being drawn back into a 8-5 position as a CEO of a non profit. It was a great opportunity and I enjoy both the challenge and the autonomy....but...I had to work with the board of the organization as well as lead a team of strangers. I felt I had to present as male to both the board and staff. I feared I would not command the respect needed to perform effectively.. Without a doubt, I've compromised a very key part of myself. Life, though, is full of compromises.

[ReineD]

It depends on how much you want the job.

I think you should stop painting your fingernails to get in (toenails are OK), and then once you have proved yourself indispensable, start painting your fingernails again.

Ponytails are acceptable, aren't they? My SO and half the men who work with him have their hair tied at the nape. It's an academic environment though. I don't know what it's like in the corporate world.

[mechamoose]

Reine: I get that, but isn't that a 'bait and switch'?

It *feels* dishonest. I get the idea of Corp presentation, but part of me feels like it is opening the closet door and going back in. It rankles.

(Bitch, moan, complain. The world SHOULD be different, but it isn't.. yet.)

- MM

[Sometimes Steffi]

You should think about it this way:

No job, no money, no shopping for new clothes.

Do what it takes to get and keep the job.

Painted toes - OK

Painted fingers - not OK

Low pony tail - OK

High pony tail - Not OK

Earrings - Studs, probably OK

Earrings - Dangly, not OK

[mechamoose]

Thank you Steffi.

I *hate* hiding, but I get what you are saying. It just p!$$es me off when I have to compensate for closed minds. :/

(BTW, I think you should swap your forum title from 'Senior Member' to 'Damaged Goods') :)

- MM

[MissTee]

MM, I've always worn a suit and tie for interviews. Rarely have i worn them after I got the job. Just a part of the experience and it shows respect for the persons(s) looking to hire.

[mechamoose]

Oh, I did the wool suit and power tie for the interview. This is more how I'm looking to image myself to lead a team of people, and how that squares with my identity.

If I was just a 'member', then I'd feel free to be a little loose (My friends would say YOU? A LITTLE loose?) But I'm supposed to bring changes to this group. I need buy in, respect, and 'kinship'. They need to understand that I have sat where they sit, and that I *get* it. That I am one of them with several notches on the stick.

I'm seeing where this is ending up. I don't like it, but I see it. :/

- MM

[donnalee]

What I did when I had to go to work for others was do a few drive-bys when work started and work ended and see how the others dressed and how they related to each other before I interviewed. That way I wouldn't seem too needy from overdressing or too uncaring if too casual. seemed to work well. Then you can adjust for circumstances.

[Andy66]

Its not fair, but people treat you based on the way you dress. You know this. Do what you want, though. You will have to live with the results, whether they are good or bad.

[claire_hollinger]

depending on the state, they can fire you for absolutely no reason, so its not like you can successfully "bait and switch"

[kimgirl]

MM, you are in the unenviable position we all find ourselves in from time to time, some permanently. You need to get the respect of the team, recognition and for them feel your leadership. This means that first impressions and what goes on in the early days are vital. You will be under the microscope by them and any chink in your armour will be scrutinised and magnified. So you should present as an alpha male. You can always underdress, toe nails, etc. Once you have set the high standard you need to show leadership, you can let you femme side show through later. Dress to reflect your peers, to beign.

The field I work I work in is conservative to the extreme, pony tails would be frowned upon and could even effect ones future career. However, I always wear something femme, even if its just a pair of panties, clear nail varnish, although I have worn light make-up and nobody seemed to notice.

Kim

[Maria 60]

Well you know what they say, "keep your work at work and your pleasure at home". Just a suggestion.

[Katey888]

MM - you know, you know the answer to this... :)

It depends...

It depends on whether you are prepared to compromise your feelings and values to be an employee - Kim said it right: life is full of compromises...

Some folk would not be prepared to compromise their ethical values and work for any company that had any military affiliations - they have to compromise who would be a viable employer. Some will only want to work for those that have completely ethical policies with respect to the environment, or the third world and child labour, or the use of animals or animal testing in products... We all make compromises to live in a society that provides security, structure, law and common values... bit hefty for a Monday morning, but just not exhibiting some of these external cues doesn't change who we are - surely your behaviour, your relationships and what you do and say is more important than your 'work uniform'...??

If you worked for UPS, the military or Starbucks, or a thousand other companies, the uniform wouldn't be up for any discussion...

Perhaps you can work on your flair surreptitiously.... :D


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-74Jo85ji9Q

Katey x

[Adriana Moretti]

awwwww SSSSSHHH----NIKE'S .................she said flair

[Kate Simmons]

When someone is made "team leader", at least one person on the "team" will harbor resentment. This is something you have to consider. Usually those people will pick on anything that makes you potentially look bad to others. This is why I usually shied away from "leadership' positions and instead concentrated on my technical expertise. Pushing the femininity aspect on the "team" may be going too far but only you know that for sure and if you are ready for an ongoing potentially up hill battle to retain your leadership. :)

[mechamoose]

Thanks all! I appreciate the feedback!

<3

- MM

(Macho Moose *bleh*)

[Kim_Bitzflick]

I feel for you. It's hard. You feel you have a choice, present as male & have a job or present as female and no job. I don't have a good answer for you. I just want to let you know I sympathise with you. I would love to go into work in full girl mode and be accepted, but I know that would not go well.

On the other hand, several years ago, I met a CD girl who had retired from her permanent job as an engineer and then switched to girl mode and came back as a consultant/contract employee. She said everyone accepted her (in the engineering field). The only person she worked with who knew she was a CD was her former boss. I say this to show you there is hope for you.

[Andy66]

- MM

(Macho Moose *bleh*)

In that case, would it help if you think of yourself as one of those macho lesbians?

...What? Im trying to help, here, but I really got nothing.

[mechamoose]

Hee Hee!

Thanks Andy :)

[sometimes_miss]

Madame moose, you can simply do what I do; consider what you have to wear as the uniform of the job. Millions of people wear specific types of clothes or uniforms for their work; models, nurses, military, police, waitresses, flight attendants, etc., all wear specific types of clothes, hairstyles, shoes, everything to look the part of their position. My uniform is 'standard issue guy', and I wear it to work every workday and I look good in it, I take pride in my appearance and those I work with seem to think I'm a good role model for the new hires. To me, boy clothes are just a uniform I wear to get the job done.

[MsVal]

I can't tell you what to do MM, but I can tell you what worked for me.

I am able to maintain separation between my personal life and my professional life. My personal and professional lives did not mix. (I am now retired)

My leadership recognized, appreciated, and generously rewarded my dedication. My family didn't have to hear about or share my attention with work issues.

There were many times at work that I compromised my own feelings to do what I was required to do. Sometimes it was difficult or made me uncomfortable. Those times of selfless attention to my employers needs led to many promotions.

I started as an entry level technician at a major auto manufacturer's R&D lab. By focusing on my employers needs rather than my own wants, I retired from there as manager of all their domestic test and laboratory IT resources.

Those promotions gave me the ability to do more for my family.

I wanted to rise in a corporate setting. I was willing to adopt the corporate ways and forego those things that ran counter to them.

Which is more important to YOU, advancement or personal expression?

Best wishes
MsVal

[mechamoose]

MsVal: Thank you. I already determined that I have to 'wear the uniform', as they will yield the best results.

As I may have mentioned, I have been unemployed since August. I guess I have just gotten spoiled by 3+ months to presenting however I want 24/7.

<3

- MM

[Lacy PJs]

You just have to decide what is more important to you. Once you do, then everything else falls into place. But having been on the unemployment line myself, I can tell you that I did what I had to do to get a job. This may mean working for a company that you don't totally agree with (or doesn't totally agree with you) or a host of other compromises. But you do what you need to do to survive. Some religious people work on Sundays so I guess they have to make choices too.

Good luck!

Lacy PJs

[Tracii G]

Team Leader is just the companies title and it is their way of alienating you from the rest by rank.There will always be animosity between you and the "team".
I'm assuming this will be at a salary for you and hourly for the rest of the team?
If so get ready for you to work long hours basically at straight time pay.
I have been offered positions in the past to move into the office ranks and I always declined the offer.
Not that I couldn't do the job they wanted me to do but to lose the respect of the people I worked with wasn't something I felt good doing.

[mechamoose]

One thing I do know is that none of the current people want The Big Chair, so I have that in my favor.

These guys have been without a manager for 6 months (the old manager was out on medical leave) and they have worked out amongst themselves how to get the day to day stuff done. But they have no-one looking at the bigger picture, doing KPIs, coordinating with the field engineers, etc. I know I need to learn how they work now before I consider changing *anything*, and I need their buy-in and confidence that I am 'one of them'.

I'm sure it will work out fine, but I will miss my long hair.

<3

- MM

[Tina_gm]

So many people, just about everyone on some level leaves a lot of themselves home. We wear different clothes than we do at home. We speak differently. Granted you may be compromising in different ways, but most cders face what you are facing every day. And many non cders deal with having a work world which is far different than their personal world.

[Melissa_59]

Hello fellow IT worker!

If I'm reading this right, everyone *now* seems to be ok with how you dress and present. Will you retain the same manager that you currently have, or will you have a new manager? If your current manager is fine with you, I'm push ahead full steam. If someone who works FOR you has an issue with it, they're free to take it to HR who will probably tell them to blow it out of their ... um... ear. If you have a new manager though that you're uncertain of, and you really LIKE this job, it comes down to "stick to your principles or compromise".

I work from home, and I'm very happy to work from home because I can attend winter meetings in my favorite sweater dress and leggings and not worry about offending anyone. I was recently offered another job, making over $32K more a year than I do now and I turned it down. I love my current work conditions, my job, and everything, to chance a new position that might be something I'd hate myself for taking.

It's not always about the money. For me, it's about the happiness.

~Melissa

[~Joanne~]

You should think about it this way:

No job, no money, no shopping for new clothes.

Do what it takes to get and keep the job.

Painted toes - OK

Painted fingers - not OK

Low pony tail - OK

High pony tail - Not OK

Earrings - Studs, probably OK

Earrings - Dangly, not OK

I would have to go with everything said here. You said you have been without a job since august but you didn't mention whether you need to work or not. If you need to work then work. If you don't then stay home and enjoy your dressing. I don't know where you are on the TG spectrum but if your truly CD, then the beauty of it is the ability of going back and forth.

[Helen_Highwater]

tracii,
"Team Leader is just the companies title and it is their way of alienating you from the rest by rank.There will always be animosity between you and the "team".

I don't think this is always the case. I've worked for managers who were extremely supportive of the guys they managed such that, we the team members, would work all and any hours to achieve what was needed to keep the customer happy. We did this knowing that, a) we got paid overtime and always without a quibble, b) After any team meetings we ended up in the pub, beer and food paid for. We were treated fairly so we responded accordingly.

As for the core issue at the heart of this thread. I think it's a given that when you start you need to conform to the expected norm. Once there who knows, you may find the company is extremely open and accepting. I can remember turning up for what is normally considered to be the most important meeting with a new customer, the first one and this was a multi million pound project. Suit and tie, shoes polished on a hot summer's day. Customer's team, shorts and tee shirts. The looked at us like we were the odd ones out and said, gents we don't stand on formality here, casual dress for meetings is fine. So who knows what mindset you'll find.

[Promethea]

Well, I don´t know if everything is as black and white as most seem to be saying here, although that depends on the company, of course.

I started exploring my gender identity back when I was still part of the corporate world. No, I wasn´t fired for it, I quit years later when I decided that job was one more thing I didn´t want anymore. While I didn´t crossdress to work, I would express in some ways not too different from the ones you are saying, Moose. I got promoted three times despite things like long polished fingernails, pierced ears, long hair with a feminine haircut (which I would occasionally wear in a braid over one shoulder), indian patterned feminine shirts, women´s jeans (tight and with bling on the back) and sometimes even wearing foundation and a few times mascara.

Of course, YMMV, and in my case the company was one of the first ones to have an LGBT employee resource group and it was later acquired by (if I´m not mistaken) the first company to have one, and they both were leading in LGBT fiendly workplaces. And well, the people that I had to lead rarely had to see my face, since we were in different cities.

It´s ironic that in another thread you just said something about being true to oneself and now you feel you can´t take your own advise. If you have to do bait and switch, what is so bad about it? It´s a corporation, not a charity organization. No need to feel guilty.

Edit: The first time I read through the thread I missed what you said about cutting your hair. Just wear it in a ponytail, unless the dress code has anything against it cutting it is too much!

[Dianne S]

Moose,

Have you met the recruiter in person? Maybe your appearance is a total non-issue. I know that at most of the places I've worked, plenty of guys had pony tails. Painted nails would've been a bit unusual, but I've seen that before too. And it seems to me that a remote support position shouldn't require any particular dress code!

If there's any way you could put out feelers without jeopardizing your chances, maybe that's the solution.

[PaulaQ]

MsVal: Thank you. I already determined that I have to 'wear the uniform', as they will yield the best results.


How do you know this? Have you talked to anyone at the company about it? If this is a technical / IT company, you may find that they are pretty accepting. A lot of tech companies are. Some aren't. You are in Massachusetts - I'm not even sure if they can legally fire you for something like this. LGBT rights are a reasonably big deal in that state, I believe.

If these people are smart, they'll respect you for what you know, and how you stand up for them. How you present may not be that big of a deal.

I wouldn't let people here talk you out of this before you've even explored it. Yeah, it's scary. Be yourself unless they absolutely will not allow you to do it. But you owe it to yourself to find out first. Be proud of who you are, hon.

Look - it's a little different for someone like me. Basically, at this point, there is no more guy more for me. (And I wouldn't do it anyway, regardless of the personal cost.) But staying closeted is what keeps y'all powerless and terrified. Is that how you really want to live? Really?

[flatlander_48]

Prime Directive: Care, Feeding and Protection of The Mechanism against untoward forces, within and without.

[Michelle789]

Sure, I can go the TG route which can't be discriminated against, but my professional side is questioning if that is what I should do.

I'm confused about going the TG route versus not going the TG route. Do you just want to wear painted nails and long hair to work, but still go by a male name, or are you going to fully transition to female?

In the end of the day, anything that is not living fully as your gender assigned at birth is TG. So whether you just decide to wear painted nails to work, or fully transition, either way you're considered to be TG, both by the TG umbrella and by TG protection laws.

Massachusetts has some of the best TG protection laws in the USA. However, no TG law is fool proof. No company can legally fire you or refuse to hire you because you are TG in Massachusetts. However, they can indirectly discriminate against you and either find some other reason to get rid of you or not hire you, so you should always be on your guard. I wouldn't live my life worrying about it and just do my best job every day.

I agree with Paula, as a tech worker myself, tech is one of the most acceptable fields to be TG in. Most tech companies are pretty accepting of TG people. Some aren't, but many are. In the end of the day in the tech field they care about if you get the job done. If a transgender worker does the job better than her/his/their cisgendered counterparts, then the transgender person is a valuable employee and they won't want to get rid of you. Afterall, they want someone who is talented and can get the job done efficiently, correctly, and using the best technique possible.

Be yourself no matter what. If they absolutely won't let you, then you can always look for other work. The 128 corridor outside of Boston is one of the hottest tech markets, along with the L.A., SF Bay area, and Seattle. So you will be able to find another job if you had to. And these four tech markets oddly enough are the four most trans friendly places in the USA, if not the entire world. And all three states have some of the best TG protection laws.

[Bambi87]

Personally i've spent the last few years hiding away and being someone i'm not, until recently when i decided who cares what other people think, if i'm happy and my family are happy then its all good :).
However i've had a bit of banter at work having painted finger nails etc but they're now used to it and its not even mentioned anymore. :) so once you get past the initial shock and banter phase it soons becomes the norm.

Hugs Bambi. x

[mechamoose]

I'm not looking to transition, I more genderqueer. I go by a male name, I'm genetically male, but I wear women's stuff day to day. Skirts at home almost every day. Modest earrings, painted nails, mascara, bracelets.. that kind of thing.

If I can get away without cutting my hair, the rest I can camouflage until I get a batter understanding for the culture. While it IS and IT company in Massachusetts, it is an outsource services company which can have client-facing parts to it.

- MM

[Michelle789]

Genderqueer is still considered to be transgender, and is covered by TG protection laws. If you have any concerns about your job I feel Massachusetts is a great place to find tech work.

[MissTee]

Whatever path you choose, wishing you the best of luck MM!

[Beverley Sims]

I would take the opportunity as a male and then grow into it.
It seems a bit of a setback to you but really you need to take advantage of the situation to get ahead.
Ilike my hobby, but I do not let it interfere with work.
Yep, I am an IT specialist that is "not up himself".

[Tamara Segunda]

I've just retired after many years working in the technical world. I never had your dilemma, but I do know of one transwoman who was a senior editor of one of our trade magazines. She was nice looking and professional, but her features pretty much gave her away to most people who met her. Nevertheless, she was GOOD at what she did and had an engaging personality. Some people were initially flummoxed when they met her, but she always had the respect of her colleagues; and her staff (both male and female) were loyal and protective of her. I think you should go with what feels right to you. In the technical community, my experience has been that competence is more valued than 1950s-era cultural norms. Best wishes!
. . . . . Tamara Segunda

[reb.femme]

Hi MM,

You can always move to Britain, where the general work attitude and law is much better, especially if you work for government services. No 'At Will' clauses here! In fact after one year, you're pretty much fire proof. I don't dress as often as you do, under dress yes, but I would love to wear what I want to work, so I feel your pain. Just not coming out at work by agreement with my wife. I too am IT, seems so many of us are, so I'll blame computers for my CDing from now on :heehee:. It must be something in the ether.

You clearly accept the balance required for life and work, but it doesn't help does it? Just wondering if your state allows for dress-code change shall we say, having not declared this possibility at interview? In the UK this wouldn't be a problem, as many HR departments would bend over backwards to assist you in your change.

I agree with many here using my own generalisation, 'hide a little of yourself for your future well-being'. Good luck in that position.

Rebecca

[mechamoose]

http://www.mass.gov/courts/case-legal-res/law-lib/laws-by-subj/about/transgender.html

https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXXI/Chapter151B/Section4


Section 4. It shall be an unlawful practice:

1. For an employer, by himself or his agent, because of the race, color, religious creed, national origin, sex, gender identity, sexual orientation, which shall not include persons whose sexual orientation involves minor children as the sex object, genetic information, or ancestry of any individual to refuse to hire or employ or to bar or to discharge from employment such individual or to discriminate against such individual in compensation or in terms, conditions or privileges of employment, unless based upon a bona fide occupational qualification.

Just because I *can*, doesn't mean I *should*. THAT is really the question I'm rolling over in my head.

If I'm going to be invested in a company, I want to make it WORK. My personal goals are less important, but that doesn't mean they are UNimportant.

I'm trying to work out where the line is.

<3

- MM

[mechamoose]

Well, I got the position. I start on Friday.

As I said earlier, if I can keep my hair, the rest I can tone down. I need to speak with the HR department about dress code.

Here we go!

- MM

[MsVal]

Wow! You were interviewed and hired on the same day - you must have exactly what they're looking for. They want you to start just two days later - they must need you disparately.

All this sounds good - very, very good. I'm really happy for you and wish you the best.

Welcome to management MM.

(obligatory CD content)
In therapy today we talked a bit about the time I was hired to fill a position vacated by a woman in a six member all-woman management team, and how good it felt to be accepted as one of the gals in "chick central". I wasn't even out to myself at the time, and the bonds I formed in that group strongly influenced my desire to explore and understand my feelings.

Best wishes
MsVal

[flatlander_48]

Congratulations! Employed Is Good!

Disclaimer:
No Casting Couch was harmed in the prduction of this employment offer...

[Promethea]

Well, I got the position. I start on Friday.


Yay! So happy for you!

[Lynn Marie]

Being employed is pretty much the same as being a hooker. They're paying you to perform a service. They "own" you for the time you're on the clock. Even when self employed, you are always "selling" yourself and your services. You accept payment for your services, you do what you have to do. Don't allow the "fog" to cloud your judgment. Hell, you can't fish on the job either!

[Brynna M]

MsVal: Thank you. I already determined that I have to 'wear the uniform', as they will yield the best results.

As I may have mentioned, I have been unemployed since August. I guess I have just gotten spoiled by 3+ months to presenting however I want 24/7.

<3
- MM

Here is hoping you find your team to be very relaxed and you can put back a few touches as time goes.

[sometimes_miss]

I guess I have just gotten spoiled by 3+ months to presenting however I want 24/7.

Same thing happened to me when I was on sick leave for a couple of months. I got to live 24/7 in girl clothes, never felt better. It was a sad day I had to drag out the old 'man work uniform', put it on and go to work. Not so much the go to work part, I like my job, I just wish I didn't have to dress as a guy to do it.

[Joan.Meredith]

I got a idea for your fingernails, go with clear polish for the first couple of weeks before going with some neutral color that will ease into the more bright colors. Just my 2 cents.

Joan

[Nikkilovesdresses]

Why not quit and start a rival company- that way you can dictate the dress code.

That could be a lot of fun...

[mechamoose]

1st day.. I can keep my hair!! (Yay!)

I already did the base-coat thing (ORLY 'Orlon') thing. My nails need it.

I finally got to meet the team, and it is a bunch of geeks. I don't expect that that 'oddities' will be an issue in the long run. I just need to ease into it over the next few months. All their cubes were full of fan and other techie irreverent stuff. I just need to keep myself a level more 'formal' than they are to make this work.

They just need to get that I am 'one of them', and the rest should follow. :)

*happydance* (cloppity-clop-clop)

- MM

[MsVal]

Congratulations on your first day, and hundreds of days to follow.

It sounds like it could be a fun and relaxed place to work.

Best wishes
MsVal

[Amy Fakley]

By "remote support", does that mean your entire team is offsite/working from home or whatever? that's increasingly the case in the IT world. If so, you probably have a lot more leeway than you think. All you really need to do in That scenario is look square enough to get past the HR/interview process, and after that, you'll be lucky to meet another coworker in person once every couple years.

I ran a team of that nature for a little more than 10 years (I worked from home as well). It definitely had its up sides in respect to dressing how I wanted, but the challenges involved with running an IT team spread across three continents from your spare bedroom ... they are not insignificant, no matter how pretty you get to be at work. Not saying it can't be done, but if you're stepping into something like that, be prepared to throw everything you know about management technique right out the window, lol. On the upside, absolutely nobody will know or care how you look :-)

[mechamoose]

Two teams, field engineers and remote support. Some companies only sign on for the remote stuff.

We still need to integrate with the field guys. If we run into a solution that requires many hours to solve, it is best that it gets handed off to a field engineer... that isn't happening now. Very little integration between the field and remote teams. I plan to change that, and my boss is looking for exactly that.

I need to be in the office every day and have a tie & blazer handy for client meetings. My sparkly pink fingernails would distract from that. I will just be happy to be able to wear my earrings. (I got my hair, what else can I get?)

Not being greedy, a girl just wants what she wants :)

- MM

[alison_nyc]

My 3 cents based on what I've seen from my years in executive management...

Being "different" is fine these days with a significant tolerance and protection built into the system. However, being different only gets you so far -- up top, it's still called the "old boys club" for a reason, and unless you work for a significantly progressive company without glass ceilings, your ability to rise within an organization stops because you are different. It's the ugly and unpopular reality. At some point, someone in the company will consider "do I want this individual to be the model by which others associate with this company", and if not the growth stops. It makes me sad, but I have seen it too often.

It may almost be 2015, but from my various management jobs, we're a long way from finding the guy in the dress, stilettos and painted nails in the corner office as a regular occurrence. Dress for what others want may be the worst form of oppression, it is still a prerequisite to rise to the top in probably 95% of companies out there. Careful out there!