Here's why I don't get it

[Kacey Black.]

This is ok... and acceptable.

Yet we're not?

[Alice Torn]

The pictures say it all.

[Paula_Femme]

Hi Kaisa

Yeah, I know what you’re trying to say, but I can’t go with you in this particular instance.

This is just some cheesy “reality” show about the wives and daughters of convicted criminals… apparently members of the Mafia?!

Sooooooooooooooo… someone in the shows marketing department came up with the utterly brilliant - I hope you can hear the sarcasm! :heehee: - idea of photographing the Women in stereotypical mob suits.

They’re very obviously Women, they’re very obviously not Women pretending to be, or trying to pass or blend as men.

So no, there’s no double standard at play here, just a lame attempt at marketing a lame “reality” TV show.

Question: This is the shows FIFTH season?!?!?! :eek: How does garbage like this get to five EPISODES, let alone five seasons?!?!?! :sad:

All the best
Paula

[Rhonda Darling]

Paula, compare and contrast with "Survivor".

These shows are there because there's not enough Librium to go around. I rest my case.

[mechamoose]

"It is all fun and games until someone loses an eye"

Nobody has the room to marginalize us. "Reality" TV is a bad joke. That isn't US.

"Media" is biased. It gave us 'honey boo boo'. Do you like that?

Neither do I

You don't need the media to justify who you are, honey. If you can stand up and be *seen*, then that gives the mundanes fits.. because it makes them *think*.

Intimate/personal relationships aside, who are YOU?

We are beautiful and valuable people, dear. It is ok to want approval, but ask yourself this: Who's approval and why?

*Why* do you need THEM to approve of you being YOU?

We can't be on equal ground with 'them'. They don't get it. They aren't equipped for it.

That doesn't mean that you have to hide.

[ShelbyDawn]

I don't know... the one in the middle might just be TG... :)

[JenniferYager]

I didn't even know what I was looking at until others commented...

[Marcelle]

Hi Kaisa,

I am not 100 percent sure what you are asking but I will assume you are implying that women dressed in men's suits is okay by societal standards and not so much for men wearing an evening gown. I truly believe the picture you presented as others have pointed out, is just hype on the part of a reality TV show. I highly doubt these ladies dress as such in actuality. However, you are correct that society is more inclined to accept women dressing in typical male style clothing than a man dressing in typical female style clothing. Is it fair or right? Absolutely not. However, what we (CDers) sometimes forget is that women had to fight a long time just to normalize something as simple as wearing trousers. When women first attempted this, they were seen as an behavioral aberration and society demanded husbands and fathers rein these women in. They continued to fight and found acceptance and made the typical male style their own.

For MtF CDers, we are bucking the traditional notion of gender appropriate dress in the opposite direction and that is hard for some to digest. However, if we keep at it . . . who knows. Point is, nothing in life comes free and sometimes you have to pay as you go along to get to where you need to be.

Hugs

Isha

[Kate Simmons]

The answer is simple. By being care takers of the human race (by virtue of being women) women have earned the propriety to express themselves any way they choose. Men have limited options because they are men. :heehee::)

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Kaisa, It's the old double standard and I don't see it changing anytime soon.

[Sara Jessica]

This is clearly a play on the "Mob" theme of the show in question. These are women presenting as women who happen to be wearing men's suits. These women are unlikely to embrace such a look in their day-to-day lives. It is simply a photographic depiction, nothing more...nothing less.

What if you had a show about the husbands of beauty pageant participants? Imagine a converse image, the husbands with varying degrees of their manliness and face fur being shown from the chest up presenting obviously in evening gowns.

The difference is that such an image is seen by the public at large as being somehow humorous because we all know that men don't wear dresses. The woman in a suit, much less of a stretch which allows the viewer to see it more as the artistic and/or advertisement statement that it is rather than something many see as being worthy of a good chuckle.

[Mollyanne]

DOES ANYONE REALLY CARE ABOUT "THE REALITY SHOWS"?????? I THINK IT'S ALL JUST A MADE UP, SLEAZY TYPE OF TV SHOW THAT CAPTURES THE SMALLEST OF MINDS.

Molly

[Jenniferathome]

Well first, that one in the middle looks like a dude! But this is a simple illustrative. Now, you wrote that "this is ok" but in truth, it is not. It struck you as a bit odd, did it not? They are not dressed "normally." Our reaction to it is less strong than if the roles and clothes were reversed and that is because we KNOW no woman would want to dress as man. Funny.

[Lacy PJs]

Don't you suppose that someday, down the road, crossdressing will be more acceptable than it is today? Think of the circumstances under which women started wearing slacks. I'm sure that "in the day," that was met with heaps of ridicule and non-acceptance just as MtoF crossdressing is today. But when you think about it, there are already some inroads... guys' nylon briefs, pink shirts and fur-trimmed coats just to mention a few. Things are changing; it's just that many of us want it all and we want it now.

The fashion industry has a lot to do with this as well. Pick up any women's clothing catalog and you see "guy shirts," "boy shorts" and "borrowed from him." And items like blazers and jeans have been "feminized" to allow women to wear them more acceptably. I'm not sure how you can make a dress more masculine but over time, I think it will happen and there will always be those on the edge, pushing the limits for the rest of us.

Patience is a virtue.

Lacy PJs

[Paula_Femme]

...Think of the circumstances under which women started wearing slacks. I'm sure that "in the day," that was met with heaps of ridicule and non-acceptance just as MtoF crossdressing is today.

Here's a legendary example; Katharine Hepburn, one of the all-time-greats, had a very signature style, wearing tailored slacks, fitted jackets, and flats, when most Women in her position were flouncing around in voluminous dresses and heels!

In fact this was such an unusual look for the time, late 30's - early 40's, that one day on the set of "The Philadelphia Story," Cary Grant turned up to rehearsals wearing a skirt to "protest" Hepburn's shockingly unorthodox attire; Jimmy Stewart also seems to think it's a hoot! :heehee:

There were even rumours, dating back to the early 30's, that she was, in fact, Gay, or at the very least, Bi... how little things have changed, when the average muggle STILL equates male Crossdressing with being Gay! :sad:

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=236999&stc=1

[Kacey Black.]

I understand... and continue to try. I'm such a noob, and I know it.

I was really only pointing out the clothing... not who was trying to be what.

:)

[Pat]

Wait... we're not OK?

[Dianne S]

This comes up regularly and I think the people who ask this question miss the point. The motivation for women wearing pants and jackets is completely different than the motivation for men wearing skirts and blouses and that's why society treats the two activities completely differently.

Most women who wear shirts and pants are not trying to pass themselves off as men. They're doing it for comfort and convenience. On the other hand, most men who crossdress do at some level want to pass themselves off as women. And it's this blurring of the gender lines that causes societal disapproval.

[deebra]

So Kate, post #9, how can CD (men) get this right (equality), please don't say castration!!!!!!

[Rhian]

By wearing what we want in public and helping it to become publically acceptable.

[Taylor Ray]

Yes this unwritten prejudice seems to be buried deep within the collective unconscious.

A (seemingly) common scenario: after a wonderful and intimate night, a woman wakes up and puts on her underwear and her man's button up shirt.

"You look so beautiful in my shirt!"

An uncommon scenario: after a wonderful and intimate night, a man wakes up and puts on his girlfriends' cami and prances around the apartment.

"Um, what in the world are you doing?!"

[Paula_Femme]

Well Taylor, if I "pranced" around the apartment, my girlfriend would also be saying, "Um, what in the world are you doing?!" :laughing:

[Anna H]

i practice my runway walk sometimes...i guess technically that's
prancing (?) ...but that's a secret...

oh hell, now i've told everybody. i'm so embarrassed!

lol!

[Savannah_Skye]

I don't get it either especially when I walk in I walk into an office (I travel a little for work) and most of the women are wearing suits and the only difference is the buttons are on the other side. I remember one such occasion is which a few women were discussing how they wanted their husbands/boyfriends to be "manly." But before I digress, and as said earlier, society will change...over time.

[Beverley Sims]

Kiasa,
It is an age old question that has been pondered over many times.
I can wear a skirt down the high street and I will be laughed at.
I don't think we will ever get anywhere with this one.
Next question please. :)

[Dianne S]

I don't get it either especially when I walk in I walk into an office (I travel a little for work) and most of the women are wearing suits and the only difference is the buttons are on the other side.

Is that the only difference? The suits are not cut to flatter their figures? They don't wear makeup, nail polish and jewelry? They don't wear heels? No hair accessories? Their blouses have the same cut and fabric as men's shirts?

As I wrote earlier, women wear suits and pants for completely different reasons than men wear dresses and skirts; the motivations are in no way comparable and that's why male-to-female crossdressing is much different than women co-opting some so-called men's styles.

It's not the clothes; I've seen a guy around town wearing a kilt and no-one makes fun of him, even though a kilt is to a woman's skirt pretty much as women's pants are to men's pants.

[sometimes_miss]

They’re very obviously Women, they’re very obviously not Women pretending to be, or trying to pass or blend as men.
And that's the clue. And again, it's the societal bias against males behaving in any way as females. There's no danger to societies from females behaving as males. But when you have the protectors of the society behaving in any way which might make the society vulnerable, it becomes viewed as a potential problem, and people become uneasy in our presence. I believe it's a genetic predisposition towards feeling that way which is handed down through the generations.

[jjjjohanne]

Hi.
I am afraid that do not accept the premise of your question. Are we not acceptable? When I go out in a dress or skirt, I always present male. I do not go out much, but when I do, it is a non-event. I do choose where I go carefully because I do not want to be in a bad situation, and that implies there are unsafe situations where I would not be accepted... However, as I grow more confident, I go to more places and situations and find that my fears were unfounded. It seems that the only place that truly does not accept me in a skirt is my home. My wife dislikes this stuff and does not want our friends or family to know about it. Others might prefer if we did not dress like women, but I predict that we could do it if we had the nerve. So, what's the difference? Women have crossed the line and worn stuff, and society has gotten used to it. We have not gone public and society has nothing to get used to. Our behavior might be the only difference.

[Alicia S]

It's not the clothes; I've seen a guy around town wearing a kilt and no-one makes fun of him, even though a kilt is to a woman's skirt pretty much as women's pants are to men's pants.

Now there's an oddity. I have a kilt and love wearing it but it definitely presents in boy mode. I get noCDing feeling when wearing it. On the contrary it's enhanced machismo. Don't know why....

[Mark/Rebecca]

I am surprised no one had mentioned that it is common knowledge Grant wore Ladies nylon panties exclusively.

[Barbara Jo]

It simple really...
Women are still viewed as second class citizens...as the weaker sex.
Men are are viewed as the stronger sex, the protectors.

So.......
For women to dress/act as a man, it's a step up ... she is often commended for doing so.
For a man to dress/act as a woman, it's viewed as a step down and........there must be something wrong with a man if he wants to take a step down and not fulfill his male role in society.

Then, you have the homophobic males who hate male gays but gets tuned on by lesbians.

It all comes down to human nature and I don't think it will ever change .