Question on low dose HRT to relieve anxiety and for better mental health

[Paula_56]

Because of family commitments transition and full on HRT isn’t an option for me. My therapist feels that a low dose regimen might provide me with some relief from these extreme bouts of dysphoria, anxiety and depression.

I am 55 and would like input;

Do you know anyone who has done something similar?

What were the results?

What physical changes occurred?

[Aprilrain]

HRT hasn't been anti-anxiolytic nor anti-depressant for me and frankly after full on transition I still have bouts of dysphoria! Some people claim that their depression, dysphoria and anxiety are "cured" by HRT but, in my experience, these people usually report feeling "better" long before the hormones have had time to affect any changes mentally, emotionally or physically, Like weeks rather than months. This leads me to believe it's placebo effect.

But more to your point, "low dose" HRT doesn't really mean anything. The amount of estradiol one needs to maintain average normal female levels will vary from person to person. Also M2F "HRT" includes an anti androgen so you don't have to poison yourself with really high doses of estradiol. Anti androgens aren't hormones they are anti hormones lol, but if you take away the T and don't add E or enough E you'll feel like shit.
I don't think hormones exist on a continuum, it's not a sliding scale where you get to pick where you want to be. There is a healthy range for males and there is a healthy range for females, they don't really overlap.

[PretzelGirl]

I agree with April. You might find a few people who were treated in this manner to see what they felt, but we are all different. The same goes for dosages. First, it is against the rules of this subforum, so we can't talk about it. But also a doctor has to prescribe an amount and monitor you mentally and physically. So there isn't a set dosage that would apply. It is a tough place to be as it will be like balancing between the place you want to leave and the place you want to go. Good luck!

[steftoday]

My therapist has the opinion that this is something worth considering...in a three month timeframe, her opinion is that physical changes would be minimal.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

any means necessary is the three words that i'd use to fight gender dypshoria...if its the extreme kind I felt, then god bless... I honestly don't believe anybody could try harder to not transition ...I had family commitments too..work commitments...friends..etcetc...

There are many issues with your idea...all outlined above...it won't make physical changes, you'll have to manage your body chemistry carefully if you are just taking Estrogen and not eliminating or reducing testosterone, it has not been shown to work, you don't know how much is "low", and you may find that doing anything that pushes you in the F direction is only going to make your feelings worse...

If you can solve your gender dysphoria this way then you are luckier than me.. all taking hormones did for me was cement my fate.

but I do go back to give it a shot...anything that makes you feel better and avoids feeling extreme gender dypshoria is a good thing, but your expectations should be low..

[joanne2b]

Hi Paula, from personal experience once you have experienced the well being that HRT can bring you will go back for more, you will stop when the first indications of breast development and changes hit you but you will go back for more and perhaps a small showing of breast development and again you will stop but that feeling will again take over and before you know it you will have a bust, small perhaps but life changing and then you may be at that crossroads. A bust is for life, personally no regrets but be aware of tinkering with HRT.. :battingeyelashes:

[GabbiSophia]

I can say that while they may help at first that they eventually did and are not cutting it for me atm. I have been on for 7 months. I agree with Kaitlyn that I am about ready to whatever to get it to calm down.

[Carlene]

Paula, I have been working with this approach for a short time. I am taking a low level dosage of Spiro, hoping to reduce the effects of testosterone and dysphoria. I find this to be satisfactory, keeping in mind that this is fairly new to me. Having said this, I am also experiencing periods of overwhelming sadness, which may or may not be a side effect. Overall though, I do feel less anxious these days.

I hope you find whatever it is that will work for you.

[RachelReaper]

Dear Paula,

I have done something similar, but not exactly the same.

Very short answer: Your therapist might be right. Try it, it might help.

Very long answer: Your note struck me as an important topic. I’ll start by stating that I am on a “full” dose, not a “low” dose, and I do not live as a female fulltime. I understand your desired objective, but defining “low” dose will be difficult to determine. Nonetheless, it’s a valid strategy to investigate and evaluate for easing the negative emotional feelings associated with your dysphoria.

Full dose HRT has helped me tremendously over the last 4-5 years and I’ll never stop, no matter what transition path I elect to follow in the future. It has eased my depression, anxiety, and dysphoria. I won’t try to tell you that I know why that has occurred. It might be the decrease in testosterone, or increase in estrogen, or placebo effect, or happiness about the physical changes, or any combination of effects, but it has worked wonders for me. I feel more calm and peaceful----I feel more “right”, but I am not completely “cured”. Your mileage may vary.

Is it possible that you will also enjoy some emotional and psychological benefits by adjusting your hormone levels slightly with a low dose? I am not a doctor or psychologist, but my experience suggests that a low dose strategy would provide some benefits…but you would need to accept the risks and face potential physical issues. Your mileage may vary.

I had the opportunity to run an unplanned experiment and I was the human test subject. Consider the following experience. Many years ago, I was on full dose HRT and my hormone levels had flipped to normal female levels. I was at that female stage for at least 2 years, while living as male full time, and then I suddenly quit all HRT...Bam!....cold turkey as they say, against doctor’s recommendations. I thought I had my life figured out at that point. Within a couple of weeks of throwing away my medications, I could feel the clear emotional and physical effects as the testosterone came rushing back into my system and estrogen was depleted. My energy level, level of aggression, and metabolism, all increased rapidly. I had my blood levels analyzed by my doctor one month later and my T and E levels returned to normal male levels. Frankly, it was an awesome feeling initially. I felt like Superman with the rush of testosterone. Your mileage may vary.

Several years ago, after the Superman feelings long disappeared, and life calmed down, my gender dysphoria slowly returned to a very uncomfortable level and I resumed full dose HRT to manage my depression, etc. Incidentally, I was at your current age at that point. After resuming HRT, the positive emotional effects of HRT were made clear to me once again. Crystal clear, and therefore I will never stop HRT. The purpose of the story is telling you that I have real experience with the positive effects of HRT on emotional well-being.

I have made many concessions in my life, and I’ll bet you have made some too. In my case, HRT was one important step that I was able to take for myself, without making any concessions for family, career, etc., and without it having a huge impact on any other aspect of my personal life, professional life, or loved ones…..however, it is very important to note that there are personal medical risks and physical changes that must be addressed.

We can discuss the easing of emotional issues associated with HRT, but we must emphasize that adjusting your hormone levels is SERIOUS business and it must be monitored by a physician. There are real risks to your physical health and HRT might cause physical changes—metabolism, emotions, body hair, body shape, skin texture, etc. The degree of the changes will be unique to your situation, especially at a low dose. At a low dose, you might not face any issues, but be mindful that some physical changes, should they occur, may not be fully reversed if you stop HRT.

Paula, I am willing to take the ongoing risks associated with HRT, because I enjoy significant benefits. No matter what action you take---making a decision to start HRT, or avoid HRT----will bring consequences. Incidentally, HRT does not mean you must transition. Life is about making compromises and concessions. You know that already because you are considering a “low” dose. I wrote this long note because HRT has made a huge improvement in my life and I hope you will experience at least some of the same benefits should you decide to try it, even at a low dose. If “low” doesn't work for you, you can reconsider the dose. It’s yours to investigate and I encourage you to do so. Good luck!

Incidentally, Kaitlyn said in an earlier message, “I honestly don't believe anybody could try harder to not transition…” I will enter that contest! I am still in the game! :-)

[Cindi Johnson]

I won't pretend to know all that could/might/will happen should you follow your therapist's advice; previous posts have covered that ground, it seems. But your question seems sincere, and I will answer in the same vein. All I will tell you is what I've experienced.

About eight years ago, at age 55, while traveling in Argentina, I purchased "E" with the intent to take a low dose so as to soften somewhat one of the multiple hard edges of my life, namely my transgenderism. (BTW, no prescription is needed for E in many countries.) I had no contact with anyone in the medical community, and have never been to a therapist. But, that said, there was and is plenty of information available to me, courtesy of the internet. I took a very low dose, daily (maybe the lowest dose possible without dividing individual pills). I've continued taking low dose E ever since, mostly bought over the internet or while outside the USA, although I've twice visited a local physician during the past couple of years, who gave me a prescription. (It's cheaper to buy with a prescription than illegally via internet, but then, of course, after factoring in the high cost of a ten minute doctor visit, well, it's economically a murky decision.) I've not taken spiro or anything other than E.

So, what was the result? Physically, some change. A little fat on the hips, and a bit of breast development, but probably not enough to put me outside of the male spectrum. (I go to a local gym daily, and some of the heavy guys have larger breasts than mine, by far.) My transgenderism, when I'm in male mode, is probably revealed more via my lack of body hair (via shaving) and thin facial hair (via electrolysis) and plucked eyebrows than via the effects of E.

Emotionally, the HRT has, I believe, really helped. Within weeks, an aura of peace descended upon me. I've had a difficult life in many respects, which had left me gnawing at myself like some character from a Russian novel. The HRT seems to have eased this. Rarely do I now lose my temper; rarely do I descend into the dark depths of despondency.

Does this mean that my emotional changes are a result of HRT? No, of course not. To say such with any honesty would require a large, double blind study, and face it, we are far to few in numbers to allow such a study to be performed. All I know and can say to you with total sincerity is that I noticed emotional changes. Maybe from E. Maybe just from getting older. If you want to know, without a doubt, what will your result will be, well, there are always plenty of girls on this website who know such things with absolutely no doubts. Don't count me as one of them.

I should add that while, for family reasons, I do remain male, I nonetheless spend a considerable amount of my life as a female. Except for employment (which I currently don't have), walking my dog, and trips to the gym, much of my contact with the world is as a woman. That, I should add, also gives me a great peace of mind; maybe that (my time spent as a woman) is the cause of my emotional changes, rather than the HRT. More likely, a symbiosis of the two.

To summarize: in my specific case, a low dose of E correlated with a calming of my personality. It's been eight years; neither I nor my doctor has identified any negative health effects so far (knock on wood). I hope my comments, along with the others' posts, help you reach the decision that's best for you.


in this world
we walk on the roof of hell
gazing at the flowers

[sandra-leigh]

HRT hasn't been anti-anxiolytic nor anti-depressant for me and frankly after full on transition I still have bouts of dysphoria! Some people claim that their depression, dysphoria and anxiety are "cured" by HRT but, in my experience, these people usually report feeling "better" long before the hormones have had time to affect any changes mentally, emotionally or physically, Like weeks rather than months.

HRT does not seem to have touched my Major Depressive Disorder, but it has done a lot for my gender dysphoria. It was not immediate, definitely not so, though it helped within a few months. I had already been on HRT a few months when I received notice of my lay-off, at which point I had been getting pretty close to going to Human Resources and saying that I needed to come out at work; with the lay-off I pushed that off, hanging around so that I got my severance without risking that. I might have needed someone there as a Reference, so I didn't want to end as Having Gone Off The Deep End. If you have enough time left on a job then there is time for people to get accustomed to the new you and see that you are Just Living Your Life, but when you are given 6 weeks then it might not be worth it.

The period after leaving work, I could "grow into" transition, and that is the time when HRT turned down the internal pressure. When I finally had the freedom to go anywhere presenting as I choose (except for being Obvious at home), HRT helped me adjust to doing so "just being natural" for me. And then when, the next spring, my live-in mother-in-law died, negating the compact that I couldn't dress obviously at home "in case it disturbs or confuses her", and so really could present as I wanted all the time, the HRT again helped me feel that it was just the right thing for me. The dysphoria before HRT had me under a lot of internal pressure to be blatantly more female, to take risks, to "push it in people's faces". Now with HRT I still don't quite know where I fit, still don't quite feel that I am "really" female, but that stresses me out far less, and I get a heck of a lot less torn about whether I should overtly "pretend" to be male for the sake of jobs or society or whatever. The guilt and self-shame are considerably reduced. I am no longer "a guy in a dress". I am no longer "a transgender person who feels angry and resentful and confused and tensed up with a load of Don't You Dare Make Fun Of My Dress Because I Need It". Now I "Just Am" much more. I don't care so much for wearing jeans because people mis-gender me more when I do so, but I accept myself more.

[Cheyenne Skye]

A lot has been said already about going to a doctor for blood monitoring etc. so I will just relate my experience. Before I started transition, I had base testosterone levels done. They were already at the low end of the normal male range. My doctor started with a low dose of spiro then added estrogen after two or three months. I too hoped that at least my dysphoria would calm down after a month or two. But it didn't really seem to make much difference at first. The first few times my blood work came back with the T level barely changed, even though my doctor slowly increased both spiro and E. It took slow ramping up of my doses over a year and a half before my T level finally started to drop significantly. Incidentally, that was around the same time I came out at work and started working on my legal name change. That's when I noticed an improvement in my mood. So it's hard to say if it was just the hormone change or the fact that I finally felt free after coming out. But I really could tell the hormones were affecting my mood around 3 months ago. Then at my most recent doctor visit, my blood results came back with almost no T left. But it took a full two years to get to this point. The dysphoria isn't completely gone, but now I only think of my transgenderism in a near clinical way instead of emotionally. (If that makes any sense.)

[charlenesomeone]

I have the same questions as Paula. Thanks for all the great responses.
How do you start out with this? Tell your Doc, Physc? What has been
best. I have read and done lots of Google searches, just wanted some practical
advice from girls I trust.
Thanks
Hugs

[steftoday]

I started by talking to a wonderful gender therapist. She's not pushing anything on me; we're simply discussing options.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

One key thing is that no matter what you do, it really helps to have a good therapist to help you through..

Whether you are trying it to avoid transition, to just feel better or in desperation, its important to have somebody to lean on.. I bet its also helpful to talk more directly to people that are doing what you are thinking of

It won't cure you for sure but perhaps it will make your quality of life a little bit better and get you through...like I said though, the outcome is very unpredictable and what helped people stay in a holding pattern for many years has also pushed people into the "next level" ...

[Traci Elizabeth]

There are many anti-depressions, anti-anxiety, and anti-dysphoria prescription medications that can be prescribed for you.

HRT will not solve those issues. What HRT will help with is reducing the "T" effects that men suffer from and will calm you down and make you more gentle, more caring, more understanding, more patient, and more at ease. You will have a longer fuse (meaning not short tempered) on HRT as well.

But from my experience, HRT is not going to help you with your mental health issues.

[sandra-leigh]

Traci, I agree that your experience is that HRT did not help you with any mental health issues, but I don't think it fair to then conclude that it would not help anyone with their mental health issues.

The causes of Major Depressive Disorder are unknown. Imbalances in brain chemicals gets talked about, but why are the chemicals out of balance?

I could put together an argument, with references, suggestive of the possibility that in some transsexuals, in the brain there may be a mix of masculinization and feminization of brain centers. I would put it to you that such a mix could lead to internal signalling conflicts in a brain. In such a case, HRT's effect on the brain could be to either re-shape some centers so they all a-line (I am not sure if any brain imaging studies have been done about this), or that the hormone dose could at least "coax" the centers to act more consistently with a single gender. Reduce the internal brain conflicts and depression would be reduced.

[PaulaQ]

I know people who report positive psychological benefits from doing a low dosage of HRT. It doesn't work for everyone. The feminizing effects are hard to predict. They'll likely be less than a more normal HRT regimen, but it's very difficult to predict these things, or tell what the minimum dosage that will mitigate some of your symptoms of dysphoria.

Many, but not all of us, report emotional benefits from HRT. There is no guarantee though that you are going to be able to stand part time life as a man on any HRT regimen. I couldn't do it and I was on a more normal HRT regimen.

There are reasons we transition. My feeling is that people who try this are mostly prolonging the inevitable. That said, if you are really suffering it's worth a shot. Just understand that what you probably end up doing is simply transitioning rather slowly. That's been the experience of others I know who've tried this. Still, I've been told that it brings some significant relief. You just have to realize you are likely still on borrowed time in terms of maintaining your male life.

[GabbiSophia]

HRT will not solve those issues. What HRT will help with is reducing the "T" effects that men suffer from and will calm you down and make you more gentle, more caring, more understanding, more patient, and more at ease. You will have a longer fuse (meaning not short tempered) on HRT as well.
.

I do not agree with this and from what i read hrt doesn't change who you are. I personally have not seen any of this change. I would think that if it is brought out as you say then it was just a hidden or suppressed side.

All hrt is doing for me is relieving the crazy that GD brings. As of now though just hrt is not enough but it was for a few months or at least gave me a break enough to look at my situation.

[Alex R]

Hi Paula

I'm 57 and started a low dosage about three to four years ago. patches twice a week, upping about a year later and then again year after that. All without transitioning.

Yes, it helps, no doubt about that. But, it is not a panacea. It helps lessen the dysphoria, but doesn't erradicate it. However, it does help crystallise any doubts about where you are on the fabled spectrum.

Physically, upper body muscle size diminishes with strength being noticeably affected. Breasts grow, but probably within the man boob range in size; shape maybe more female when seen without a shirt but 'camouflageable' with a shirt on.

This is a very quick summary; if you want anymore info feel free to PM me, more than happy to discuss.

My advice: as I say not a panacea but give it a go if you feel the need, remembering to do it through a doctor of course.

[pose007]

I could not have described my path any better than you have.

Hi Paula, from personal experience once you have experienced the well being that HRT can bring you will go back for more, you will stop when the first indications of breast development and changes hit you but you will go back for more and perhaps a small showing of breast development and again you will stop but that feeling will again take over and before you know it you will have a bust, small perhaps but life changing and then you may be at that crossroads. A bust is for life, personally no regrets but be aware of tinkering with HRT.. :battingeyelashes:

[sandra-leigh]

Asking yourself whether you should see a gender therapist is not a decision to transition.
Asking around to find out about gender therapists in your area and their costs, is not a decision to transition.
Making an appointment with a gender therapist to determine whether you are comfortable talking to them is not a decision to transition.
Attending gender therapy regularly is not a decision to transition.

Asking a gender therapist about HRT is not a decision to transition.
Asking around to find out where you could get HRT locally is not a decision to transition.
Making an appointment for "intake assessment" at the HRT facility is not a decision to transition.
Attending the intake assessment and asking questions is not a decision to transition.
Getting preliminary blood-work done is not an decision to transition.
Asking the HRT doctor what the likely physical effects would be on you considering your family history and blood work, is not a decision to transition.

Starting an anti-androgen, at any dose, is not a decision to transition.
Starting estrogen, at any dose, is not a decision to transition.
Increasing dosages or changing medications is not a decision to transition. Not even if you do so because you find yourself "impatient" at "how slow it is going".

Deciding not to start HRT is not a decision to not transition.

Slowing down or stopping HRT because of medical complications is not a decision to not transition.
Slowing down or stopping HRT because you are getting flak from other people, is not a decision to not transition.
Slowing down or stopping HRT because it frightens you how much you like it, is not a decision to not transition.

[RachelReaper]

Wow! That’s a lot of non decisions. I like it! But now I ask myself…

When is a decision to not transition not a decision to transition? When it’s a transitioning decision between transition and not transition? Or when it’s a decision {**Brain exploded**}

[sandra-leigh]

I didn't expand out as far as I was imagining when I sat down to write, but I figured that I would put it out and add to it afterwards.

What exact is a decision to transition (or not to) is a good question.

I did a lot of things "because I needed to at the time", that individually were not decisions to Transition, but at the same time were part of the process of transitioning. "transitioning" lower-case-T is the action or process of changing, derived from root words "transit" meaning "to cross". "The Transit of Venus" for example. But people change all the time, in reaction to circumstances or internal need, and there isn't necessarily a plan. Indeed, the Plan might be to "Not Go There" but one day you realize you are there anyhow, willingly or not.

[DebbieL]

This should really be taken in three sections.
First, you are seeing a therapist, who seems competent in gender dysphoria. This is critical. Has she been encouraging you to get some real life experience? How often are you getting RLE? Are you able to live at least part time every day?

Taking T-blockers actually Androgen blockers, such as Spironolactone will lower your testosterone levels, they will also lower your blood pressure and help your heart rate. When my heart doctor found out I was on spiro he was able to take me off 4 other medications. The spiro has side effects that most men would hate, but as a transsexual, you will love them.

Taking Estrogen with or without Progesterone can get very awkward very quickly. I was still living part time, but pretty much everywhere BUT work as Debbie when I started that phase, and the breasts slowly and gradually formed until suddenly they were very difficult to hide. I wore a thick cotton "pup tent" dress shirt (18 collar) to hid the girls, but I had to switch to being "Rexxy" for a few months until I could get the legal name change because even when I thought I was in "boy mode" wearing a t-shirt and pants, the "ping" was so obvious that people kept saying "I can help you miss", and it was no longer an option to hide it.

What other measures have you taken to prepare? Have you done laser or electrolysis or otherwise cleared your face of things that would leave shadows in the night?
Have you trimmed your eyebrows and shaped them with wax or tweezers? Have you had a manicure and worn your polished nails for a week or longer without removing the polish (even clear?).

One of the reasons for doing Real Life Experience is to prepare you for life as a full-time woman. But the other key reason is to prepare those IN your life for your life as a full-time woman. Letting people see your polish, or your colored hair, or your shaped brows gets them used to the idea that you are more woman than man, and gets them used to the idea that you are really a woman who just acted like a man because you had to.

Keep in mind that once you have B-cups or larger, it would take surgery to turn you back into a man, and that surgery might not be covered by insurance.

You will keep making excuses for not transitioning until you realize you have to transition - or not. If you are like those of us who have to transition, putting focus on "what will my in-laws think?", "what will my friends at church think?", or "what will my family think?" are a lot of fretting over the wrong things.

If you really are Paula, then your friends will love Paula, or they weren't really your friends.
If your in-laws don't love Paula, they don't live YOU!
If your wife or children don't love Paula, then they don't love YOU!
Rather than trying to maintain the lies, masks, deceptions, and diversions required to maintain Paul,
Focus on making sure that Paula is someone who is loving and will be loved.

When Debbie came to Thanksgiving last year, it was on a "trial basis". But when I got there, I helped with the cooking, I helped with the clean-up, I let people talk to me about what was important to them, I let them ask questions, I shared my feelings, I shared from the heart, I listened from the heart. I even played games with the family and even won at poker because my father-in-law thought that my flirty smile was a "tell" that I had a bad hand.

By Christmas, all the gifts were for Debbie, not one for Rex, because "We like Debbie SO much better than Rex".
As Rex, there was always a wall, a mask, a costume, and a complex network of distractions to keep myself (Debbie) hidden.
As Debbie, I could just be myself, trust others, love them, and let them love me.
Debbie is better liked at home, at work, at church, at family gatherings, and everywhere else I go.

If you are transsexual, which I believe you are, you will also be much more loved as Paula everywhere you go.

[mbmeen12]

Do you know anyone who has done something similar?
Ans; Yes myself....

What were the results?
Ans; My therapist agreed I met in the spectrum of transgender but not full blown transgender and the therapist even sat with my wife to explain.

What physical changes occurred?
Ans; None.....I have NOT taken synthetic HRT after meeting a transgender gurl friend for dinner and she explain personally the real commitment. My therapist said it might be possible to take a minimalist approach for treatment. I have thought/sought another way to approach the conundrum that you and I seem to have.

[LeaP]

Paula,

When I started HRT, I did so on low dosages of both estradiol and spironolactone as is the norm with my doctor, with every intention of ramping them up after 2-3 months. I did not for 2 years, because the low dosages worked well, producing good, steady feminization effects. You can't count on "low dose" being low with hormones. This is regardless of serum levels of hormones, by the way. The change from *your* normal levels may be sufficient, as opposed to hitting some theoretical target levels.

Depression? You will almost certainly get short-term relief, which will be largely psychological. Longer-term, the jury is out. If your depression really requires anti-depressants, it's a good bet that it still may.

And dysphoria? What heppens in some cases is the distress lessens, but the gender pressure does not. You may trade one issue for another.

[PaulaQ]

Depression? You will almost certainly get short-term relief, which will be largely psychological. Longer-term, the jury is out. If your depression really requires anti-depressants, it's a good bet that it still may.


It's very difficult to tell depression and anxiety that seem to stem from GD from chemical imbalances that require anti-depressants. My doc loaded me up on anti-anxiety and anti-depressant meds. They did *nothing*. The only medication he gave me that worked to alleviate my anxiety was Xanax - and I dared not take that often, because it is so very dangerous to a recovering person like me. (I threw away the bulk of the pills, I only used a few when I was at a point where I could barely keep my hand steady enough to hold the glass of water to take it with.)

Starting HRT really seemed to turn the tide for me. My symptoms were not subtle. (I was fortunate to be having a breakdown during a visit to my doctor's office - he saw it.) And within 2-4 months, I felt really normal. I'd been on anti-depressants about 6 months before starting HRT. They really had no effect on my symptoms. None. The first dosages of HRT my doc prescribed for me knocked out most of my symptoms, although the dosage cycles over a 28 day cycle, and I noticed that I was frequently mildly depressed / anxious during the low dosages in the cycle. So he bumped up my dosage a little - and I felt great all the time. That's not to say that I don't cry, or have other hormonal emotional episodes. I do - but these feel very different from the anxiety and depression I felt before. The stuff I felt before was crushing, oppressive, and felt as if it was going to tear my head open from the inside. I really couldn't have taken much more from it - it was agony.

I know not everyone experiences this - and it's entirely possible to be clinically depressed AND suffer from GD at the same time. All I can say is that if you didn't have this experience, you are quite lucky. (Or perhaps me and others who've experienced this are simply unlucky.)

[kimdl93]

To follow on Paula's point, when you are talking about what is clinical depression, ranging from mild to moderate, antidepressants are effective about 76% of the time! about 1.5% more than a placebo. It is a statistically significant improvement over sugar pills, but comes at a rather high cost given the minimal gains. And cognitive therapy, without medication, shows equal results.

So, what do we make of this? Depression is a western affliction. People living in abject poverty inAfrica and Asia are not depressed. People living Stone Age existences...the Masai and the most remote villages of Pau Pau New Guinea are not depressed.. This is an affliction of thinking, susceptible to suggestion...in e form of antidepressants and low dose HRT.

If this works, fine. But one needs to get to the root of depressive thinking and I guess we all know what our cause can be.

[sandra-leigh]

So, what do we make of this? Depression is a western affliction. People living in abject poverty inAfrica and Asia are not depressed. People living Stone Age existences...the Masai and the most remote villages of Pau Pau New Guinea are not depressed

Low depression rates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology_of_depression): Japan 531 (lowest), Spain 620, Greece 632, Côte d'Ivoire 714, Portugal 721
High depression rates: USA 1454 (highest), Nepal 1424, East Timor 1404, Bangladesh 1401, India 1400

Papua New Guinea, 909, is middle of the list.

The Maasai people live in Kenya (723) and Tanzania (724). Those rates are certainly lower than USA (roughly half as much), but still higher than Japan, Spain, Greece, Portugal. Or are those countries not "Western" countries? Or is there abject poverty in those countries that is not known to the researchers who put together poverty tables (http://povertydata.worldbank.org/poverty/country/KEN)?

I am not easily finding studies of depression in the Maasai, but I do see ethnological studies of what they use plants for (http://www.ethnobiomed.com/content/2/1/22).


Apart from dental hygiene and malaria treatment, only few plant species were employed for treatment of other health conditions. [...] and "Low spirit / depression", which was treated with a Morning Glory (Evolvulus alsinoides).

I don't know about you, but I find it very odd that a people who "are not depressed" include treatment for depression as one of the few things they use plants for medicinally.

I'm going to have to ask you to provide sources, Kim, as your sources have irreconcilable disagreements with the ones I can find.