How can we change our view in society

[Carly CD]

My wife and I went shopping yesterday for some sewing items so I can start making some new steampunk outfits. It made me wonder how is crossdressing much different? When we dress, we change our appearance and our personality from our "norm". When I work as a haunt actor, I change my appearance and become Edgar Burke. The same happens when my wife and I attend renaissance festivals and steampunk events. The last three events people accept and many thinks it's cool. So why is crossdressing harder for some to accept, when it's not much different than other forms of role-playing? I think because it is viewed by many as a sexual fetish. I feel that movies, tv, music, etc have fueled that image so much, that people can't get past it. When I'm Carly it allows me to express my femine side, Edgar allows me to express a darker, more evil side and the same happens with my goofy steampunk character (think Dr. Who) and a more proper, defined side at the renaissance festivals. I wonder how we can shift our lifestyle away from the fetish lifestyle and drag queens and into a more accepted lifestyle.

[Rachael Leigh]

Carly, I like how you think and agree it really is just an expression of a different part of our personalitys.
While it's different than most it's still is just an expression

[Lorileah]

when you are playing a role, people see you as that role. It isn't YOU, it is a character. When you participate in SteamPunk you are in a group that is also dressed that way and everyone assumes you do it for fun. When you crossdress you have two hundred years of negative publicity to overcome. Do you do it to be a woman? How creepy is that since you were MADE a man. It doesn't make sense. Was there something in your childhood? Were you molested? Did someone turn you gay? You like kids don't you? You must because you are fooling them to get them to trust you as a woman...after all. Did you keep your dead mother in the attic while you wore her clothes and killed women in the shower? Are you making a suit out of skin? How about robbing a bank, you must have planned doing that because you are wearing a disguise. You are going to try and steal my boyfriend or husband aren't you? You are a weakling aren't you? You don't like manly things like cars or sports. You probably don't like women.

See? Nothing above has a positive. No,you look awesome in that outfit. I like how that eye shadow brings out your eyes. I don't think I ever saw a news article that said "Steampunk people are criminals looking to break laws" Have you seen a movie where the villain is steampunk (and wasn't science fiction or fantasy)

It sounds like a great argument that YOU aren't (choose the stereotype above), you are just a normal male who likes to dress up. But why? Why would you? there must be a deeper meaning somewhere...

[Jenniferathome]

...When we dress, we change our appearance and our personality from our "norm". When I work as a haunt actor, I change my appearance ... people accept and many thinks it's cool. ...

No, people don't accept it, they set aside their expectation of normal because of the venue and purpose. You are SUPPOSED to be dressed for such an event. There is a common interest. A cross dresser is NEVER supposed to be cross dressed. It's never normal. The exception being that one can cross dress for an event aimed at cross dressers. The COMMON interest is upheld.

I can't see cross dressing even being "accepted" in general but I would argue that today cross dressing is actually tolerated.

[Adriana Moretti]

Those who post unshaven pics of them in panties are REALLY not helping. either....along with the Craigslist Closet Queens........I could keep going....but now I cant get that image out of my head....

[Michelle 78]

It does get my goat as well, last week a work colleague of mine come into work dressed in a leotard a tutu fishnet tights and women's leg warmers for charity, it was all taken as a joke of course and it was for a good cause and good on him, but why is real cross dressing just not accepted as part of life, it's always ok when it's a joke. I don't think we will ever be accepted as part of the norm. I agree with Adriana the pervs don't help our cause either because that's what dressing is always seen as perverted, Gay and socially unacceptable by a lot of uneducated and narrow minded people who just can't be changed. This is the way of the world unfortunately, I think in some parts of the world it may be tolerated as Jennifer said, but as a whole, no way.

As Carly asks what can we do to change it? who knows, Lorilear summed it up, it is not seen as positive.


PS sorry to rant:)

[justmetoo]

Sounds like you have a lot of fun with the steampunk and Ren Faire costuming! (I love both myself, but haven't done much of it)

I think Lorileah and Jennifer hit the nail on the head. I think you and Adriana and Michelle also make good points about the public perception of crossdressing currently and historically. I think the way that public perception changes is through things like visibility and education in positive ways, ways that show we are the same as non-CDs, apart from the CDing itself. As more of the general public can put put an actual human face on this the more the caricatures will fade into the background.
Another thing I truly believe that can help "the cause" is greater gender equality all around. When women are not seen as second class citizens fewer people will think it's demeaning for a man to exhibit any so-called feminine traits or to emulate females.
In both cases I think we're talking about generational changes, which means things get better incrementally, over generations. Along that timeline there may be "tipping" points where a larger shift in public perception will become evident.

[NicoleScott]

Why is it OK for you to dress up for role-play, or to express your feminine side, but not OK for others to crossdress for sexual enjoyment? If there is a perception that there is a sexual aspect to crossdressing, it is because there is (for some - not for all).

[LilSissyStevie]

Come on, Nicole, you know real women don't like sex!

[Kacey Black.]

I understand what you're getting at as well Carly... but sadly I agree with Jennifer & Lori. We'll be long gone before THAT society becomes reality. :)

[Carly CD]

Another thing I truly believe that can help "the cause" is greater gender equality all around. When women are not seen as second class citizens fewer people will think it's demeaning for a man to exhibit any so-called feminine traits or to emulate females.
In both cases I think we're talking about generational changes, which means things get better incrementally, over generations. Along that timeline there may be "tipping" points where a larger shift in public perception will become evident.

I think that point is key as well. We has a society need to get away with the thought that females are "weaker" or anything feminine is a sign of weakness. It will take time to change but I think it can happen.

Hopefully someday we can get to a point when I say " I crossdress" people will react the same as when I mention the faire, steampunk and being a haunt actor, and be like "cool" whether if they are into it or not. Unlike now where some want to think of you as a freak, or in some cases want to use physical violence against you.


Why is it OK for you to dress up for role-play, or to express your feminine side, but not OK for others to crossdress for sexual enjoyment? If there is a perception that there is a sexual aspect to crossdressing, it is because there is (for some - not for all).

I never said it was not OK. I was pointing out, like others did as well, that one of the first images that people think of when you say crossdresser is one of a sexual fetish. Until that is changed it will be very hard for us to be accepted. Sure for some crossdressing has a sexual aspect to it, that is fine, you can make a sexual fetish out of anything. But when the only side of crossdressing that gets thrown out into the public on a regular basis is the sex side, then we have a problem. There is a big sexual fetish with interracial sex, but when I see a interracial couple I don't instantly think of the fetish aspect, I see a couple walking by.

[Kacey Black.]

I wonder how we can shift our lifestyle away from the fetish lifestyle and drag queens and into a more accepted lifestyle.

Then again, one could say "it's just clothes." Then stare em down and go on with your bad self!

Better than tighty-whities and a tie... and a sweater vest.... Boring!

I'm still ok with ya!

[tiffanynjcd24]

When people look at shows like jerry springer see the crossdressers on there or crossdressers that post nasty stuff on craigslist, there are two things that comes to peoples mind, one it is not normal for a guy to wear dresses and two they feel that crossdressing is a sexual fetish. Its a certain way how people sees crossdressers as. Also those closet cders are giving other crossdressers a bad rep. I think that when we dress up, we have a right to express our feminine side and be true to ourselves

[Beverley Sims]

Probably the same way that we discussed it at length then six months ago.

[Alice Torn]

One thing is for sure. Parents do not want crossdressers near their children! I was out my second time out, in Seattle in 2005, and a family in a car parked next to mine, had a dead battery. The father reluctantly had to ask me ,(all dressed up, in short dress, and dark hose, and high heels), for a battery jump. So, as i would always do, in guy mode, said yes i will. He then told his children, to not look. Every person on here, is a crossdresser, or TS ot TG. But, we each, are not that different than the vanilla public, in that we each have different family backgrounds, influences, possible religious influences, marriages, children, lifetime single issues, and mental and emotional states, and some have very good reasons for staying closeted, due to personal issues, family and work. Some were bullied much of their lives, and some, like me, are a bit paranoid, plus some nervous disorders. Not all of us are good at going out dressed for a number of reasons, while some take to going out, like a duck takes to water. Some of us, can have our lives ruined, if our secret goes out. Society can be cruel, indifferent, or tolerant.

[Allisa]

One person at a time, when asked "Why?" give a honest and informative answer as to why you do it and hope you have educated and opened a mind.The negative will always be there, change is always hard to come by. The more crossdressing comes into view the more chances to educate. Keep the faith and going strong.

[Nadya]

That's a tough question to answer. Maybe the more people realize how many crossdressers are actually out there, the more it will be accepted. Ha, easier said than done. :) Many of us (including myself) still have trouble even going out in public.

[Kacey Black.]

Maybe it isn't all that tough Ryce... and others.

Not to hijack a thread here... but...

I guess you could sit here & talk about it... or maybe just go out. You yourself look just fine to me and I wouldn't have questioned it once.

Can you walk the way you want? Do you look ok to you? If so...

:)

[Mia Brankovic]

Be the Change...start an advocacy organization...

[Zooey]

Come on, Nicole, you know real women don't like sex!

Wow... Seriously?

[kimdl93]

Honestly, there is a difference between pretend and real life. Everyone knows that you're not a Medieval knight, or the character you present in Steampunk attire. But for many CDrs this is more than a costume. And it comes with a whole array of societal presumptions that run fairly deep. It takes time for societies to shed such ingrained notions. We change them with each encounter we have in real life, assuming we present ourselves with self respect.

[LelaK]

The main obstacle to societal acceptance seems to be not understanding. I can't understand other people's "fetishes" (or identities or self-concepts), but I can understand my own, so I can live and let live.

The other main obstacle IMO is that straight men don't like finding themselves attracted to someone who's not female and they often think we're trying to fool them.

[Gillian Gigs]

You change the world one person at a time. It is by showing love, compassion and caring that people will see that Cd'ers are just people with quirks, and we all have quirks. Love those who abuse you, speak well of them and show kindness even though they are being unkind, then you will be showing yourself to be the bigger person, regardless of your fashion statement.

[Pat]

I think that there is a general negative perception of TS/TV/CD folks out there, but it's an abstract one -- something people use as their first approach because they have no firsthand experience. If you can appear before them and not be any of those things they fear then they are willing to accept you as an exception. If they meet enough exceptions in their lifetime then they'll start to reject the negative stereotypes.

[melanie206]

I don't think of being fem as being in costume or some sort of goofy re-enactment. Just like blacks, gay people, Jews and any other discriminated-against group, we will never be completely out of danger. We can be as nice as we want but only when the self-righteous, moralistic pinheads among us have something to fear will we have some semblance of freedom.

[LilSissyStevie]

Wow... Seriously?

I guess sarcasm doesn't always translate well in print.

[Mia Brankovic]

Gillian...very nicely put...I liked Ghandi...the mainstream societal psyche is rather fragile (the speed of progress, for one)...any one of you have asked deep feeling, inner questions about who/what you are...and you have come to 'understand' about yourselves...mainstream does not ask many inner questions...it's too difficult...too much work...it would be improper to hold anger against those less 'enlightened'. Is deep-inner perspective a mainstream activity? I'm going with "No".

and Jennie...you're talking self-promotion...

Melaine: Those that claim the moral high ground and cast out judgement are losing the battle...thank the LGBT community for that one...they stomped 'em...In Canada, and the USA...society has been 'tazered'...I'm thinking culture shock...the religious foundations are started to crack (metaphorically). Within 15 years the Catholic Church will be down to 30% of the global population (that close to extinction, BTW)...cracks are forming...but let's handle these folk with care...I think the majority are traumatized.


"Education is the most powerful weapon which you can use to change the world."
Nelson Mandela

[Marcelle]

Hi Carly,

Many have said it correctly that people don't get us because it is seen as an aberration of sorts and this married with all the classic stereotypes associated with CDing does not help toward acceptance. Will we ever be truly accepted? I like to be a bit optimistic and think some day the human species will evolve and get over itself and just accept people for who they are. However I am a pragmatist and realize for now "tolerance" is the best we can hope for. I don't hide the fact I am TG from my family, friends and work colleagues and while this generates a whole host of questions from them (even when I am not dressed), I take this as an opportunity to educate them and let them see I am as normal as anyone else on this planet, I just choose to express a side of me which needs to be expressed for the well being of my own emotional stability.

However you question has me wondering . . . What would happen if you went to a Steampunk event "en femme" or dressed as Lady Carly vice Sir XXXX at a Renaissance event? Would the CDing be overlooked in light of the venue?

Hugs

Isha

[Ressie]

The truth is that most CDs don't pass and many look like idiots dressed in women's clothes. Even if there were never any media depicting CDs and TSs it would still be considered weird by most people. Maybe if crossdressers would stop doing it in public unless they can truly pass as women? There will always be fetish CDs and drag queens. Some just love to shock people too.

The best we can do is be ourselves and not be phony about presenting.

[Marcelle]

Hi Ressie,

I am one of those who do not pass but I like to think I look a bit better than "an idiot wearing a dress" :battingeyelashes: :). I cannot accept that in order for us to gain more social acceptance that we should stop going out unless we pass. None of us pass (clear and simple) as we all have little tells which proclaim us as "guy, dude, bloke, man, bro". However, that should not stop people from going out and educating the masses. I would like to point out that in the early part of the 20th century women in pants was seen as "silly" but they kept pushing the point until now it is commonplace. If we (CDers) don't make an effort (even if it is just from the sidelines providing support) the one truth is . . . nothing will change.

Hugs

Isha

[Paula DAngelo]

You change the world one person at a time. It is by showing love, compassion and caring that people will see that Cd'ers are just people with quirks, and we all have quirks. Love those who abuse you, speak well of them and show kindness even though they are being unkind, then you will be showing yourself to be the bigger person, regardless of your fashion statement.

I think this is a big part of how we can do something to improve how we are viewed, the more we show we are just people like everyone else the better we will be viewed.

Someone above said "One thing is for sure. Parents do not want crossdressers near their children!". Not only is this not true, but this is exactly the type of thinking we need to be addressing. As an example, I'm a skater and I try to skate weekly as long as my schedule permits. This past weekend a mother was there with her son (who appeared to be about 6). He was having a rough time and not having much fun. I went over talked to the mother to see if she would like some help with her son. She didn't bat an eye and was happy for the help. After about 5 minutes her son was doing much better and was now enjoying himself. Through the rest of the session I checked back to see how he was doing and he appeared to be having fun. Nowhere during this whole time was there any sign that either of them were concerned about me or about my appearance. So by investing 5 minutes of my time I may have painted "one of us" in a positive light". Maybe the mother didn't know I was transsexual, or maybe she didn't care. Either way it doesn't matter, if she didn't know then good for me, if she didn't care then good for us since it shows that people are starting to be accepting of us. Overall I tend to believe that most people just aren't concerned, as I know when I'm skating I definitely draw attention to myself due to the way I skate and I have only had positive comments made to me and never have been treated in a negative manner.

[NicoleScott]

Maybe if crossdressers would stop doing it in public unless they can truly pass as women?

Counter-productive to acceptance. If only passable CDers were "allowed" in public, there would be no way for the public to see that men in dresses aren't a threat. They would see only men or women.
Some women dress and make up in ways that draw criticism here when CDers do the same. While you're banning some CDers from going out in public, be sure to ban those women, too.

[noeleena]

Hi,

Steam punk yes we have a few here that are into that . and a few other groups

I dress in Edwardian i dont see any men in our clothes, they dress in mens wear and look pretty good as well. allthough it was noted at another meeting place and i was asked do i like dressing in womens clothes , because all of those from our group were women ,

i said no im just a tad different , as the guy looked at me and wondered i told him i was a female , then it dawned on him,,,, oh your a female .....

At our Renaissance camps similar 3 years ago wow your taking on the personer of a woman and dressing in garb, that takes courage to do till they worked out i am a female oh dear .

those of you who blend in or look like a woman can do it youd never be asked . , i cant oh well thats life ,

yet what i have done is open up to society and our communitys is we can be accepted .

Its not how we look or ( dont ) in my case , its about our personality who we are , and becoming part of society and our many different groups as a member of over 7 groups, soc and community based banded to gether, groups for different meetings , do,s or what ever . and your asked to join in and become part of year after year does that not prove we can be included.

Come on look at it from where i stand . i.v stood before many 10.s of 1000.s of people talked to many 100,s more and in the public domain seen and known .

And would any of this have happened had i looked like a ...normal...looking female, no of cause not , get real , none of this would have happened ,

Before you start the fire are you ready to get burnt ,i was and my life was on the line what for to be in the lime light if you knew me before , no way ever just ...NO WAY EVER....

Iv done it with help from people i never knew yet they were there for me . hey theres been a price to pay , i.v paid it ,and i live with it so as i said about the fire are you ready to be burnt . dont embark on something you wont see through i,v done my 7 years and still doing and now im able to partake of the fruit of what we have done , and those who helped me .

I,v meet with society and have their blessing and paved a way for others to come along next to me if they wish to, and then they too can be blessed like i have been .

I hear the talk and not a lot happens if any thing , yet im intergrated into society and our groups ,

So that being the case i must be so weird people just give up on me and say just join the group and sit tight, nope get your self known and join in and youll become as i have a member of the groups
.

...noeleena...

[KittyD]

I was just thinking this the other day...! I film such events as cosplay and I see man as women and women as men all the time and its the norm.
To me there isn't a whole lot of difference :)

[Ressie]

Nicole, I didn't say CDing in public should be banned. I just think there are many that think that they're more passable than they truly are to the general public. Everyone has the choice to go out, but some aren't making a wise choice. I've never laughed at any transgender person, but I've been shocked by a few. I've heard people tell stories of CDs they've seen and everyone laughs execpt me. So it isn't just the media that's perpetuating this stigma IMO.

[NicoleScott]

Ressie, I know you didn't say some CDers should be banned. I was trying to make the point that if passable-only CDers went out, CDers would never be seen in public, and that doesn't help the cause of public acceptance.
Some years ago, there were some posts from members attempting to shame people out of their closet, "for the good of the community". At the same time, some other posts attempted to drive some CDers back into the closet because their presentation was too outlandish for the good of the community. Huh?

[Jaylyn]

I personally don't dress to impress any one but myself. I would not go out in public unless I knew it would be only a CD event where no one would recognize me or at a club where only CDs are at in a far away place. I know my appearance would never pass. However I still enjoy the act of dressing as the opposite sex. Now with that said in my humble opinion the opposite sex dresses like their opposite sex and no one says anything. I feel that if clothing companies would start a gradual move to make clothes unisex that we CD would all be looked at as folks that are in style. I've seen some shirts and blouses that have very little differences. When it becomes the cool thing that the men's wear and women's wear are close then it would slide into each other and every one would be wearing practically the same type clothing. If your a believer the very first clothing I guess was unisex and maybe made of leaves for the male and the female.... So why not now have the materials and designs merge over a slow ten years. Just a thought. My hunting undergarments are made of nylon and are based on a layering system. They are made of some of the same materials as my wife's leggings. If hers were Camo then we'd look alike. I've seen some men's under wear that are made of the same type material as my wife's panties. There are some socks already out there that resemble hose. I believe many of our early ancestors used to wear frilly tops. Men and women made from silk. Would we still be viewed by the same standards today if that were the case. We definitely would be wearing a smoother type material. Scotch men are not viewed as different when they wear their kilts. Who are the fashion police that says we can't wear what we want. I love minis and garters red nail polish and red lipsticks are my fetish so I wear my mini with my tallest heels and play dress up. I won't go out but that's my decision. I know I won't pass and would look a sight and just don't want to deal with all the stares or talk especially in our small town. From reading the text on all these posts I believe it should be up to the person what they want to wear out in public. They should also remember it's up to them to be able to handle the critiques and comments they might get.

[PaulaQ]

I wonder how we can shift our lifestyle away from the fetish lifestyle and drag queens and into a more accepted lifestyle.

That's simple. Come out. Be yourselves. Let people publically know that this is part of who you are. You are male, heterosexual cross dressers. Join together, demonstrate that you are otherwise normal men, that you vote, hold jobs, pay taxes, and have normal relationships.

While you are in the closet, you are easy to marginalize and ridicule. You are going to have to stand up for yourselves. No is going to do this for you.

I didn't say this was going to be easy.

[Lorileah]

:whew!: Glad I pass

When things like this come up I just change a few words in my mind and it shows just how discriminatory a post or thread can be. Try it

[LelaK]

The truth is that most CDs don't pass and many look like idiots dressed in women's clothes. Even if there were never any media depicting CDs and TSs it would still be considered weird by most people. Maybe if crossdressers would stop doing it in public unless they can truly pass as women?
I don't plan to be dressed in public except in safe places, but I applaud anyone who doesn't "pass" but presents themselves publicly anyway. I certainly don't pass as yet, but I want to see how close I can come to passing by trying makeup and a good wig, to go along with the clothes I have. But, even if I can pass barely, I don't plan to adopt feminine mannerisms. Women don't all have such mannerisms either. I prefer neutral mannerisms myself.

[Lily Catherine]

I'd like to point out that humiliation by drag is also another part of the stigma (forced feminization as a fetish, for that matter). While I opt not to deny the trope or suppress it, there's still an implicit mindset beneath - MtF crossdressing is effectively reduced to submissive position in the public mind.

Here in Singapore, there are estates/towns particularly frequented by crossdressers; that might look like a good thing. That said, these circles also tend to be associated with prostitution as well, reinforcing the notion among the older crowd that most crossdressers are, well, involved in the trade and are beholden to its stigma - also creating a notion that crossdressing is entirely sexual (not saying it's nonsexual either.).

The 'It's a trap!' meme that was floating around the Web since I was in junior high doesn't help matters either. While feminine beauty is a common thread among some of us, it is as well to the proclaimers of this meme. This oil slick of thought also spreads to the much earlier "tits or get out" catchphrase - typical guys do not seem to want their sexual or romantic thoughts and attractions to be cheated.

I beg your pardon for the seemingly disjointed nature of this post though. There are many corollaries to any reason for the stigma and how we can be further accepted. It will take time, and even now I can safely say I cannot point to a root cause or root solution yet.

[Rachelakld]

CD & TS have been fringe elements of society, just like Gays were in the 60's & 70's.
In the media in the 90's & 2000 here, they were known to be prostituting and causing unsocial problems (P & S on the pavement, running around in see through nighties at 10 pm etc).
It changed a lot for us, when a TG did very well in politics.
It changed for us when an idiot picked on someone dressed and ended up wearing a very hard punch, while being recorded and featured on the national news TV, so they are more hesitant to try causing trouble.

But really, to change society, we have to be out, we have to be polite, and we have to let them get used to us. -

Which is my main motive for leaving the closet and mingleing and interacting with society, chatting politely to strangers, saying Hi

[Launa]

ITS ALL ABOUT LEAVING THE CLOSET!!!

Get out there and live as a part of society. Be seen and then we'll eventually be accepted in. Keep being cowards and hiding in the fringes then we'll never be accepted.

[Melanie B]

I get the feeling that those of us who go out into the real world are a minority, so it's quite likely that many muggles have never encountered one of us in the wild -- at least, not that they've noticed
And those of us that do NOT dress for sexual reasons tend to try to blend -- so we arre less likely to be noticed than those who do.
So it's almost inevitable that the public perception of CDing will be coloured by the conspicuous minority, rather than by those who pass (or blend) unnoticed, or by those who stay in the closet.

[CarlaWestin]

I wonder how we can shift our lifestyle away from the fetish lifestyle and drag queens and into a more accepted lifestyle.


The truth is that most CDs don't pass and many look like idiots dressed in women's clothes. The best we can do is be ourselves and not be phony about presenting.

It's interesting how the very stereotypical class sorting that we want to eliminate seems to be part of our judgement system. I had a wonderful day out running errands the other day, dressed androgynously, jeans and a long sleeve cotton shirt but also with noticeable 38DD breasts. I never got so much as a glance as far as I know. I really didn't care what other people thought. I was in my comfort zone. The acceptance thing starts within.

[JayeLefaye]

Be the Change...start an advocacy organization...

There are so many thoughtful responses in this thread, but Mia's really got me to thinking...

The difficulty with an advocacy organization, is that none of us(speaking strictly for me) hetero MtF cross dressers are having any of our civil rights trampled upon. We can vote. We can earn equal pay. We can marry. We can do damn near anything we want.


One of my hobbies is collecting obscure laws here in the U.S.A....For instance, did you know that in Minnesota, it is illegal to tease skunks? Or that in (landlocked) Ohio, it is illegal to fish for whales? There are still some laws in states that state: It is illegal for a man to dress as a woman with the object to deceive...Now THAT's a scary one!!!

Fortunately, most of these laws are never enforced...In most of the south eastern states it is illegal to go to church without carrying a gun(that one dates back to colonial times because the natives had a tendency to attack villages on Sunday mornings while everyone congregated)....

Sorry, I'll stop rambling now and get back to addressing Mia's post.

Since I think it would be hard to organize an advocacy group, partly due to the fact that they don't make closets big enough for us all to meet in, I think it would be easier to declare 1 day as a CD-Awareness Day. If two guys in Oregon can declare "International Talk Like a Pirate Day", then I have every right to declare February 7th(his birthday) as "International Eddie Izzard Appreciation Day", and will start a new thread to explain it.

You've been warned:-)

Jaye

[NicoleScott]

ITS ALL ABOUT LEAVING THE CLOSET!!!

Get out there and live as a part of society. Be seen and then we'll eventually be accepted in. Keep being cowards and hiding in the fringes then we'll never be accepted.

Such a short post, but so much wrong with it.
1) not every closet crossdresser is a coward. Many would have much to lose by coming out, whether that's fair or not.
2) happily closeted crossdressers have no reason to come out. Nothing to gain, much to lose. Especially those who dress for sexual reasons, personal and private, and most everybody wants others to keep their sexual activities personal and private.
3) you want others to come out of their closets for your benefit, not theirs.
4) you use "we", as if crossdressers are all the same. We're not, we're a very diverse bunch.

Let me personalize it. My boss is openly opposed to all who aren't all male or all female in every way, and lumps them all as "queer". I serve at his pleasure, no union rules or contracts to protect my job. If I came out as a crossdresser, I KNOW I would lose my job. I'm living my crossdressing life in the closet to protect my job. Sorry, but I won't be a martyr for your cause.
I like to make up and dress over-the-top, and there is a sexual element to my crossdressing. Do you really want me out there, representing "our" community?

[Paula DAngelo]

Such a short post, but so much wrong with it.
...

I've been trying to decide on whether or not to comment on this post. I'm probably going to ruffle some feathers and get flamed but I'm sure I'll survive. You say there's so much wrong with the post you quote and as far as I can see there is just one small thing wrong with it. The comment about "Keep being cowards" is wrong, it's not cowardice to protect your own self interests, it smart.

I do agree that we need to leave the closet, however I don't think anyone is saying that everyone should leave the closet. There are many reasons for someone to stay in the closet, you have valid ones as you have said.

With that said, I think it's important for any of us to come out of the closet, if we want to and are able to, if we want society to start to accept us. I can't speak for anyone other than myself, yes I would like others to come out, and yes I would benefit from it but so would they if they want to be accepted. However I'm not asking anyone to martyr themselves for me. I'm out there every day because this is who I am, and if even one person a month comes away with a better impression of us because of me then I have made a positive impact for all of us.

So yes, I do feel it's all about leaving the closet, but only if that is what's right for you, and only each of you can make that decision.

[Lorileah]

Nicole, we do understand your position on this. There are good reasons to not come out. Most involve a huge part of your life as it is.

However, the OP did question how to change perception and Luana gave a valid answer to that. It wasn't wrong except for some cases. And it is true. You can't get people to change how they view something unless you give them some different to view. Consider this (and it is way out in left field because I am sure your boss would never change) but let's say hypothetically that for some strange reason TGs were suddenly accepted by the world. Now your boss can see that you don't dress to rob banks or to tempt men. But how could he know this if so many stay in the closet? He won't. Maybe something like being out will change one person,who will change two people who will change 4. But we know that if you don't try, no one will change.

We do have a huge hurdle in this lifestyle. That is 90% of the people who live it don't/won't admit it. So the other 10% have to do what it takes to change it. That is nothing new in the world of discrimination. For hundreds of years people were told "Accept the life you have. Don't rock the boat because it will upset someone. This is the way it was meant to be." But a few took the step to change that. MLK didn't sit back and say "hey we are doing alright even if we aren't equal." Women didn't just watch as they were marginalized by men. Gays used a little riot to jump off the being closeted train. None of these things happened overnight. It took years. Years of those who had preconceived ideas to re-evaluate. Years to show that stereotypes aren't true. Women could do anything a man could do in the real world (and often times better). Gays are great parents and excellent citizens. But someone had to wave the flag first. We are bringing up the rear on this. We have let others blaze the trail while we stood back and said "That's great except we aren't them". I can see where some TGs don't want to be associated with the gay community...they aren't gay. But by association and periphery we ARE effected by the gay and women's rights fight.

So when someone says "Get out and stand up" they are telling those who are tired of being marginalized, bullied, kept down and/or told they weren't "as good as". The Transsexuals don't have a choice. Staying in the closet really isn't a good option and can lead to all sorts of bad things. The CDs can because when things go south, they can just jump back to being a "man". So why try and change perception? It doesn't effect you...most of the time. Yet it does because even YOUR perception of yourself is degraded by how society portrays you. We aren't saying everyone stand up although that would be the ideal and would progress things at a faster rate. What the OP and Luana are saying is "if you are tired of being a second class person you have to fight for the first class treatment".

[NicoleScott]

Lorileah, I don't disagree with anything you said (except the part about my perception of myself being degraded... but no biggie). Those who want to change the public's perception of CDers - go for it. If there's a problem, we can choose to engage or disengage. I choose to disengage. Again, much to lose, nothing to gain.
My post was in opposition to Luana's attempt to shame CDers out of the closet by calling them cowards. That comment deserved a rebuking. I hope you agree.

[Tinkerbell-GG]

I agree that change takes change, but I also think the three million other available crossdressing sites and their gazillion members who mostly dress for intimate reasons are not really interested in public perception. The public are also not interested in their private proclivities.

Personally, I think y'all need to figure out who you're representing before starting this cause, because if ALL crossdressers literally walked out of their closets as suggested here, you might find public perception worsens. While the members on this forum all appear on similiar paths, I wonder about your commonality with the other sites. Are you really a group with a common cause, or a very diverse collection of people who just happen to wear women's clothing?

[bimini1]

Socialization is a powerful thing. Hell, if I wasn't CD it's a dammed good chance I'd be prejudice against it. Some days I might still even be prejudiced towards it even though I am it.
It's all boiled down to perception. I dunno, few times I've been out have all been positive for the most part. Sometimes I feel like the world is moving forward but I'm trapped by my own backwards thinking. I think things really are starting to shift. We may not get to a point of total acceptance but who does? Everything you do is evil to somebody.

So keep ya head up. If you're closeted it's probably not worth it. If it is then do what you gotta do. Sometimes I think we feel society is this big bad wolf waiting to devour us when in reality things are improving.

[Katey888]

Here's another interesting discussion where I think most of us are in violent agreement... or maybe not... ;) I think everyone has made some good points throughout (with the exception of the 'coward' comment - I agree with you Nicole, but then a bit of name calling doesn't really hurt us 'closeted-for-our-own-personal-and-valid-reasons' types, does it? :tongueout )

I am struggling a little with what type of acceptance the OP is after? As I think Jen@Home was the first to state here (and has before) society is already 'accepting' to some extent of CDing - probably more in the context of TG and TS folk that shift towards a 24/7 (or at least, high percentage) presentation. Acceptance of this as a 'lifestyle' confuses me a bit... For me that tends to drive muggles understanding towards the fetish end of things because 'lifestyle' to me implies choice - much as the OP also chooses to present as other personas in different supportive environments - but I don't believe that is true of most of the forum participants here, who for me, are resident somewhere on the TG curve and this expression is a need not an option, or the few participative fetish CDers here (there are many, MANY more on other sites) for whom this is more of a choice, rather than something deeper. And the fetish end of anything will always likely struggle with mainstream acceptance because of the sexual connotations - however wrong that may be.

Having widespread acceptance probably also brings its own issues, particularly with our strong associations with the LGB community. It's been said before, but other than probably having proportionately more of those with a 'flexible' sexual orientation among us, our problems are not the same as the LGB community faces in normal life. I do think it's a good idea that we are seen as falling under the 'rainbow' umbrella, but the issue it brings immediately is that muggles assume mtf CDers are gay or bi - which is demonstrably untrue. If you look at what acceptance means IRL for LGB folk, one aspect is the legislation that protects them against overt discrimination and the ongoing education programmes that seek to encourage full understanding that an LGB orientation is not abnormal behaviour: just different. It doesn't guarantee acceptance in people's minds. I know that most of my career I have worked in large corporates that may maintain a non-discrimination policy but that does not stop covert discrimination happening. I have never found it surprising that few people I have worked with have admitted overtly to being LGB... because it is clearly better to be clandestine if you can (see how long it took Tim Cook to declare his orientation..???) from a personal perspective.

You only need to look at ethnic minorities or to some extent the public LGB community to see what happens when you come out. Muggle world tends to drive minorities to ghettoism - either in real terms or virtual ones. Non-discrimination legislation may protect your existing job if you decide to wear heels to work, but it will assuredly not help you progress if the folk determining your career progression are clandestinely bigoted. I'm not saying this is right - but this is the way the world works. I don't see how just 'getting out and owning it' is actually really doing anything beneficial for all of us, I really don't.

Besides - as has been said before - the ones who will be noticed more will be those who are less blendable because either: they choose not to be (eg. the 'ND' or Neck-Down CDer) or nature just doesn't help them much. This is not to be unkind, but I'm afraid they are also likely to be the ones to receive more ridicule and negative comments, simply because they are more noticeable. I don't see how it helps unless all of the passable ones are going to actively engage with Joe Public after fooling them and say: "Here I am - you didn't read me until I opened my trap..." :eek: And that sort of has some negatives about it too...

I'm sorry - I'm struggling with the whole structure and agenda and objective of mainstream acceptance right now...

:rant:

Katey x

[Rachelakld]

People in the closet, don't need or want the public opinion, so why would they want to come out and change it?
CD prostitutes want it to be known which street corner they work
I don't want CDers with wild sexual fetishes (or anyone else with sexual fetishes) in the local mall looking for acceptance

Me, I just want to be a normal girl, do normal girl things, talk to other humans, have coffee with them.
I would like girls like me to be "out" and live normally along side other normal GGs.
Personally I would prefer all the "other" Cders to stay away from the public.
Off now to have my cake and eat it :)

[Tinkerbell-GG]

I would like girls like me to be "out" and live normally along side other normal GGs.

That's a really good point. While this issue doesn't affect my H personally as he'd be one of the private sexual dressers stepping out and frightening the general public, lol, but if you're goal is to just be 'one of the GG's', how does it help anyone to be seen as a crossdresser? That would mean identifying with one group at the expense of another - I'm pretty sure the public would struggle to accept both.

I also think you'd be surprised how many crossdressers wouldn't actually want a public identity. Fulltime dressing or even part time public dressing is statistically still rare (Vernon Coleman had some recent stats on this) and I don't think it's because society won't allow it either, as Jennifer pointed out most Western societies have general tolerance/indifference now. I just think most dont need more than their closets, and if they do, they find their way to this forum and figure it out individually.

[ReineD]

I wonder how we can shift our lifestyle away from the fetish lifestyle and drag queens and into a more accepted lifestyle.

Do most people see it as a fetish and if so, what is their definition of fetish? I think that most people who see a CDer dressed in regular women's clothes shopping at a mall do not get the impression this is a sexual thing? It would be different if they saw a CDer wearing a platinum blonde wig, boobs too big for his body, fish-nets, tight leather mini and the shoes to match, but very few really go out looking like that outside of TG safe venues.

I think what puzzles people, and what they might disapprove of is the idea that a man would want to be feminine if it isn't obviously a costume at a venue where people are expected to wear costumes. It seems so far out of the norm for most people that it is viewed upon with suspicion. Lori in post 3 and others describe it well. Maybe these people ask themselves if the CDer is all there, and what else might be weird, unsettling, and even dangerous about him that isn't visible.

People mistrust what is outside the norm.

Even if every single CDer were to be out and proud, the only way to make it more accepted would be to have a significant percentage of the male population want to go out looking like a girl because they feel comfortable that way. Non-fetish CDers would actually have to BE the statistical norm and this isn't going to happen. Someone mentioned women wearing pants. It only became normal because there were a great deal more than 3%-5% of potential women who might enjoy wearing pants, in fact 100% of women eventually wore them.

BUT, the upside is that we do live in a live-and-let-live, mind-your-own-business world, meaning that if CDers stay away from dark alleys and countries that have strict religious rule, most people have the sense to keep their opinions to themselves. We (my SO and I) can go out without fearing for our physical safety and without being publicly berated.


....For instance, did you know that in Minnesota, it is illegal to tease skunks?

LOL. Oddly enough, I can understand why. A great many people stand to be skunked when just one person does the teasing.

[Gillian Gigs]

Such a short post, but so much wrong with it.
1) not every closet crossdresser is a coward. Many would have much to lose by coming out, whether that's fair or not.
2) happily closeted crossdressers have no reason to come out. Nothing to gain, much to lose. Especially those who dress for sexual reasons, personal and private, and most everybody wants others to keep their sexual activities personal and private.
3) you want others to come out of their closets for your benefit, not theirs.
4) you use "we", as if crossdressers are all the same. We're not, we're a very diverse bunch.

Let me personalize it. My boss is openly opposed to all who aren't all male or all female in every way, and lumps them all as "queer". I serve at his pleasure, no union rules or contracts to protect my job. If I came out as a crossdresser, I KNOW I would lose my job. I'm living my crossdressing life in the closet to protect my job. Sorry, but I won't be a martyr for your cause.
I like to make up and dress over-the-top, and there is a sexual element to my crossdressing. Do you really want me out there, representing "our" community?

That is well put from my point of view.
1. I would have more to lose than gain, so why do anything more than I am doing. As in incouraging people to love and accept one another.
2. As I have said to others, I don't care if you have mirrors on your ceiling and a trapeze in your bedroom, I just don't want to hear about it. Hence I don't think that others are interested in the color or type of underwear I wear.
3. If I could wear a shirt (guys), panties, skirt, and pantyhoses with comfortable shoes and not get weird looks while looking like a guy, I would think about coming out of the closet, but that ain't happening soon.
4. We are an eclectic group and if we can't accept one another, then how can we expect other to accept us.

[Alice Torn]

Gillian, Sad but true, Where there are people, there will be disagreeing and arguing, including in this community. We fight among ourselves, over a lot of issues, just like the general public. Group think is only surface.

[Launa]

Such a short post, but so much wrong with it.
1) not every closet crossdresser is a coward. Many would have much to lose by coming out, whether that's fair or not.


2) happily closeted crossdressers have no reason to come out. Nothing to gain, much to lose. Especially those who dress for sexual reasons, personal and private, and most everybody wants others to keep their sexual activities personal and private.


3) you want others to come out of their closets for your benefit, not theirs.


4) you use "we", as if crossdressers are all the same. We're not, we're a very diverse bunch.

Let me personalize it. My boss is openly opposed to all who aren't all male or all female in every way, and lumps them all as "queer". I serve at his pleasure, no union rules or contracts to protect my job. If I came out as a crossdresser, I KNOW I would lose my job. I'm living my crossdressing life in the closet to protect my job. Sorry, but I won't be a martyr for your cause.
I like to make up and dress over-the-top, and there is a sexual element to my crossdressing. Do you really want me out there, representing "our" community?


#1) I'm not saying to go out and loose your career over coming out of the closet not at all. There are other ways to support the cause for the world to see us in a better way. In order for society to accept us better then we need representation and that can also be helping out behind the scenes in many different ways.

#2) This is fine if you only have sexual fantasies and IF your partner knows about it. Its the folks that do it for only sexual pleasure but hide it from their partners with that secret stash of clothes and wigs in the garage that I have no respect for.

#3) No that's not right I'm out already out in public places and I take my lumps and bumps as it is but if we want to change the way the world views us then yes the more people that come out the better. Hiding does make us look creepy to the world and to our partners if they find out by accident.
If someone doesn't want to come out of the closet that's just fine but there sure is a lot of whining, moaning and bitching threads on the forum that say, "I wish I could do this or that but I just can't for whatever reason such as society doesn't accept us or my wife doesn't accept it." If anybody wants to make a difference in society then go out and find a way to support the cause or if they choose not to then don't complain that society isn't moving forward and that you can't do something you wished you could do.

I'm not asking you to loose your job by coming out to the folks you work with. I am curious though it says your in the closet to protect your job but if you didn't live with that hanging over your head would you be out? Are you going to go out in your retirement years?
Do I really want you out there representing us?
If your a decent person and want to dress over the top and you come to social functions, clubs or to certain social events then sure why not? I do it quite a bit actually but only in the right venues not out to the grocery store. If someone is going to be like that goofball that boarded the commercial airliner a few years ago wearing skimpy lingerie then no we don't need that kind of bad exposure.
If you were out with your boss and he saw me and said he something like there's another faggot in our society would you say anything, try to educate him a little bit without loosing your job or just agree with him? If you say you would try to say something to him then even that's helping.

Let me sum it up and say the thread is How can we change our view in society? My perception is society will not come to us, we have to find a way to go to them and change their views anyway we can just like the way our gay friends have slowly done over the years. Be part of the solution not the problem. If we do nothing then its stupid to think we'll get different results than we have now. Most of the time people hate something they don't know. The more folks I meet out there have said to me I'm glad there are people like you out there this country needs to be diverse. And I do find that certain kinds of hiding equates to cowardice. I can and have lumped myself under that umbrella at times too during this journey.

[PaulaQ]

I'm sorry - I'm struggling with the whole structure and agenda and objective of mainstream acceptance right now...

Wouldn't it be nice if you didn't have to hide this from:
- your parents while growing up
- your employer
- your spouse?

Even if you NEVER go out in public, wouldn't it be worth something to you to feel no shame or stigma?

Wouldn't it be nice if you could talk to potential partners about this, and have a reasonable expectation that they wouldn't find such an idea so weird that they never consider dating you, even if they would actually get along fine with you?

Wouldn't it be nice if potential partners didn't feel that a relationship with you required THEM to either:
- be closeted as well about your CDing
- come out

A lot of you on this forum seem pretty miserable and desperate to me. Do you really think that lives in a world that accepted you, where you could be open about who you are, would be worse than the lives you lead now?

Unfortunately, if you want acceptance, you will have to make a stand for it.

But yeah, other than an open, free, and authentic life - this is a totally useless idea. Forget I said anything!

[Maria Blackwood]

ITS ALL ABOUT LEAVING THE CLOSET!!!

Get out there and live as a part of society. Be seen and then we'll eventually be accepted in. Keep being cowards and hiding in the fringes then we'll never be accepted.

Leave the closet? But it's where all my pretty lingerie is! My preciousssssssssssss lingerie. (/gollum)

Sorry. I fight name calling with satire. It's my way.

[Launa]

A lot of you on this forum seem pretty miserable and desperate to me.

Unfortunately, if you want acceptance, you will have to make a stand for it.

But yeah, other than an open, free, and authentic life - this is a totally useless idea. Forget I said anything!

Bingo, if you want change then get the balls to make a stand without necessarily destroying your life you have already created for yourself. As I said in my last post our gay friends did it over time and still have a long way to go but they are indeed moving in a forward direction.

[Jenniferathome]

Somehow, this thread had morphed from "change the view of society" to "outing yourself for a cause."

Change can happen, but it will be one person at a time. That happens by having positive experiences with the normals, not marching in the street. There are no "stands" to make here. Go out, dress appropriately, act appropriately, chat with a normal, go home. I have see this in action and it works. Now, that stated, I will be long the way of the dodo before cross dressing is "accepted" but that's ok. You CAN get out and you CAN interact with the normals. Nothing more is needed.

[Kacey Black.]

:yt: :notworthy:

Testify!

[Mia Brankovic]

Well...as I have said..."Be The Change"...Yes, I'm very new to this cross-dressing phenomenon...and I am enjoying it immensely...I have never, in my entire Life, have laughed like I have over the past 23~ days. I must enjoy it...'cause I'm absorbing all this useful information...and applying it! Now, I talk a big game; however, the rubber has yet to hit the road...with respect to Mia's Great Adventures.

k' so I visited my neighbour's last night, for coffee...as Mia! I had already told Scott (who most likely would have told his wife?)...they are in their 60's...I mind their two dogs (I'm their Uncle ;)), once for three weeks...so, we are tight friends...both said that I would most-likely pass (I went as 'Mia in White'...my profile pic)); however, work must be done on voice & gestures (...make-up as well)...so then we started to discuss where I could pick up these skills...well, RIGHT BACK TO THE BEGINNING.

JOIN A THEATRE GROUP! I have sent off an email to a local theatre to volunteer as 'Mia'...to perform Shakespearean plays (young boys used to play the female parts, because women were not allowed to act in those days...). Salvation: my reason for why I do it, and practice, practice, practice...PERFECT!

--------
k' I must get my ears pierced and business cards printed...

--------
the bad news is I cannot get my ears done today...too much snow! Business cards can be done over the telephone...Oh, and the theatre has graciously and most enthusiastically accepted my proposal. ;) I can quite rightly promote the theatre, in my fashion (Uhm...CDing!), while out in public...hahaha...this is truly too much! I WIN!

I also get: voice training, make-up training, opportunity to socialize, acting lessons, etc.

The only Way to change society's image of any 'Fringe Element'...is to mingle and exchange views in a civilized and intelligent environment...the more exposure that mainstream has with a 'FE'...the more they become accustomed to the occurrence. We've lost the internet battle...them panty wearin', hairy-a$$ed princess' are fully and completed represented...our cause must be taken to the streets in the daylight...not in the dark over the net..."Pick Your Battles"..."The Art of War", Sun Tzu

I'm feelin'... "Ride of the Valkyries", Wagner

[Launa]

There are no "stands" to make here.

I'm going to stand. This Friday afternoon I am going to get ready then stand up from the make up chair, walk out the door and head for the mall. After that I might take in a art performance. I will meet some folks along the way and I'm sure it will be enjoyable.

[Lorileah]

Some of us see a "stand". We see a stand because we don't have a choice. We don't want to be treated as less than just because we are TG. So yes there are stands to be made. And that goes directly to the OP of what can we do? I have come to the opinion that there is no way to change the minds of CDs. If they want out, they go out. If they want to stay closeted, they stay closeted. But those who go out are the ones who see how change is needed. They are the ones who see discrimination or hate or having someone walk a wide path around you out of fear.

The TSs live this life. I have to be seen and thus I want to be heard. But I can only "educate" people who want education. Which severely limits the message. I am one. If there were many then the message would grow and this would be a minor point. I am not so naive as to believe we will be accepted in a broad sense any time soon. It won't be in my lifetime even. With the current situation of fear I doubt it will be in the next generation but hopefully they are more open to it now. Which will translate to their children being more open.

Current events here in the US drive home that even though we have more tolerant people in general, there will always a group who isn't. Which ever group is the loudest will get the most attention (watch the news and see which side is right now the "bad guys" even though most are not bad). We need role models. In my small way I hope that I am one of those. I don't present as "over the top". I look like a business woman at work and a middle aged "cougar" at night. When someone sees me in a store, they see a tall well dressed woman and 90% move along. So I am in a small way as I said trying to blaze a trail. Not just for the TSs. Trust us we are tough witches who have learned to have thick skin. But for the people who follow who are gender blended or "just CDs".

Yes this has morphed into a "come out come out wherever you are" thread because that is the the number ONE way to change perception. And thus I have not seen any resolution from the closeted people here on gaining acceptance in the world. I want you to tell me how you would do it. Any idea can be helpful. If it can be done behind the scenes...then tell us so we can all help.

This isn't "Us vs Them" it is US helping US. If you don't want to wave the flag, fine. When we gain some equality you are more than welcome to tag along. There is a well used quote about not hiding your light. I and many more are shining that light. But really, all sarcasm aside, help us. Tell us how you think you can get the message out. In truth, just being here is a good start. It shows that even though 90% of the TG sites are sex sites, there are many TGs who are not using it for sexual purposes. (Really unfair to bring that up because by the same analogy every pizza delivery boy or big breasted woman or gay man would be in the same boat as the TG community and we know that isn't true...right?). So how, from the safety of your house and your sphere, can you change the stereotypes?

[Jenniferathome]

.... So how, from the safety of your house and your sphere, can you change the stereotypes?

My premise is the same. One person at a time. One positive interaction after another. Marching on the street will not work. Awareness days will not work. We go out, act normal, Interact with the normals and things will change. There is no acceleration I can imagine.

[Katey888]

This latter debate was the reason for my attempt at devilish advocacy earlier:


I'm struggling with the whole structure and agenda and objective of mainstream acceptance right now...

Paula Q gave some good answers to that as to what constitutes practical objectives - AND noted that acceptance would require something of a collective approach... A collective 'stand', if you will...

Lori - your points about equality echo this but what does that mean in real, practical terms? Does it mean legislation? For the US does that mean at the federal level (if that was possible)? For Europe it would be at EU level but still may not be binding on member states. If it means (more) legislation, then what and how? I can see how it might work for TS but for TG? Well, we're back to our categories aren't we... ;) And coming out en masse may be a more powerful message than as individuals but the majority still need to agree and be consistent about what that message is! I'm sure some of the events and conventions that take place in the US are moving that agenda forward, which I think is a Good Thing - I hope more folk feel able to get involved in those events... I am beginning to feel the need to look for similar things here in the UK...

Jen - I think all of those, like you, who go out and just do normal stuff are helping but in a hugely fragmented way. I don't believe the world changes through singular interactions - I may be cynical (Me? :devil:) but I think the reactions are probably more in line with Isha's piece of fieldwork from 6 months ago... People are largely tolerant (a lot of the time because the interaction will be on a commercial server-customer basis, so they have an incentive...) but once they have moved on to the next muggle customer, their memory will just be one of tolerance, which does not equal acceptance. Unfortunately there will also be those who will continue to snicker and ridicule just not in earshot - the rigidly intolerant and unaccepting. Don't let's kid ourselves to the degree of sacrifice that had to be made collectively and by individuals to establish the collective rights and legal status of the LGB community (my respect for them grows the more I learn) - but we need to be clear about what the objective and the agenda is before folk will understand what they are rallying around...

By and large, the TS folk here are forced to be trailblazers... I think they deserve our unreserved support but I think that means more than just going to malls or eating in nice restaurants... It'd be easy for me to say "I'll help! But... I can't coz I'm not in the US..." I want to know how I can, but I'll have to do more to understand activism here in the UK... (OK - resolution for 2015 then... :))

Katey x

[Jenniferathome]

Katey, I agree that tolerance is not acceptance but it's close and is a foundation from which one can move. And like the rock becoming sand, it's a matter of time and persistence and it happens.

[Lorileah]

We go out, act normal, Interact with the normals and things will change. There is no acceleration I can imagine.


Again that may be OK for a CD especially a CD who is closeted. You have all the time in the world. So you can wait for things to change. But someone has to initiate that change. The majority of people have no clue that "we" are treated any different than anyone else. And those that do know about TGs but don't "know" a TG get their information from bad movies and TV. Do you , as a member of the T community, remember seeing or hearing about a TG appointee in the US government? Didn't make the daily news in most markets. The trans judge? The trans astronaut? The Trans actress in the highly rated television series...Ah! heard that did you? Did you know that being trans is still grounds for dishonorable discharge from the military? Now for fun, which branch of the US military is considering allowing trans people to serve? Did this all come about by a few people? No it came about by a large voice. But again, the TSs are the ones who HAVE to live with laws and rules that discriminate. In the black community they tried to blend into society in the 50s and 60s and in some areas that was possible but it took a massive push to get it on a national level.




Lori - your points about equality echo this but what does that mean in real, practical terms? Does it mean legislation? Yes it will because you cannot trust people do do this on their own. Saying "Hey guys...please let the T's get jobs and use public facilities" won't hack it. You are in Europe. Now I don't know the protection laws in the EU but here in the good Ol USA there are states that don't give any protection to trans people. There are states that give a little. So traveling from..say Colorado to Nebraska (neighbors) I go from being protected to being a target.
For the US does that mean at the federal level (if that was possible)? Yes and yes it is possible. They passed the Equal Rights amendment 50 years ago that made it a federal crime to discriminate on many levels. However, let me add that it was only a few years ago that the last state allowed interracial marriage. The federal government can put protections in place for at the very least anything that is associated with the federal government (like contracts or hiring)
I can see how it might work for TS but for TG? and why not? Why would there have to be a delineation? They didn't pass laws for certain ethnic groups but not others.
but the majority still need to agree and be consistent about what that message is! and therein lies the rub as some famous Brit said once. You see it here when some say "Not me I am not a _____" So it dilutes the power. Or if they say "Hey that doesn't effect me because I'm a guy" (who still have privilege here in the US even if you don't believe it). The civil rights movement swelled because it had support from a broad base of people. Sexual rights and protections weren't just put in place by women (even if they are 52% of the population). Here I see the same sort of thing. So many will scream from the rooftops "I am NOT part of the LGBT community" But you don't HAVE to be, you can still stand up for what is right. Just because your ox isn't gored doesn't mean you can't protect someone else's.

Quoting another great person "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately." Because, as you see, when you start eroding one person's rights, it isn't hard to chip away at others.

Now having stood on the stump, let me say that even a little help is better than none at all. If you want your SO to accept you as you are, you have to do things to prove you are deserving. So if we could get rid of the stigma of being marginalized and ostracized, your SO and family and children and boss would be more likely to see you as a human.

[Tinkerbell-GG]

Great post, Lori. As a GG, obviously all this doesn't affect me as an individual but I'd be happy to wave a picket sign in support.

Maybe that's the answer. Maybe crossdressers, be they TG or sexual or casual or hidden or whatever, don't have to stand in their heels to help. Maybe just being a voice of support is where change will come. After all, if a large group of men (closeted CDers are a significant number) can openly support TG/TS rights then that's a pretty good start. The most memorable LGB marches that I remember involved the families.

I think pushing crossdressers out of the closet is not the answer as many are happy there. But asking them to stand up as PEOPLE and support your rights is a fair request. I'll help! :)

[Mia Brankovic]

Luna...hold up my lil' Canadian snicker doodle...the revolution has been postponed...due to weather...snow storm! LMAO

WOW...now, this is communication! Lorileah...I could not agree more (with your first post...still 'digesting' your last...you have much to say!) Sign me up for any discussions on this matter...if you don't mind?

Katey...I very much like the 'Collective Stand' idea...we will need to organize.
You had mentioned that the TS have been taking the lead on this charge...is it not our turn to pick up the standard? Their 'social argument' is much more difficult than ours...we just want/like to wear dresses. We should be taking the lead on this...and helping the TSs

TX...Tinkerbell (hugs!!!)

-----------------------
Lorileah...Canadian's, and our laws...are respective of the value of the 'individual'...for the most part.

To throw some slogans into your rant ;):
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.
Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
In the End, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends.
We must learn to live together as brothers or perish together as fools
Martin Luther King Jr...and I can pull more...

"MLK" was just too much...

[Michelle789]

I agree with PaulaQ, Lorileah, Katey888, and Tinkerbell on a few things. I would like to add some more.

1. We need to show that we are decent human beings. Like Paula said, show them that we are men or women or any other gender identity who does their job, has a family, goes to church, and participates in any other constructive aspect of our society.

2. We need to always be on our best behavior. Be friendly, polite, offer to help people in need, donate to charity, participate in charitable behaviors or organizations, don't engage in exhibitionism, and always behave like a lady when using the ladies room. This also means always sit down when you use the ladies room.

3. A voice is nice, but a voice alone won't help if people don't actually have to see it in real life and gain practice in their accepting and understanding of us. I actually think a voice combined with the action of living openly is what is needed.

4. This applies to everyone who is on the transgender spectrum. This includes CDers, TS, genderqueer, gender fluid, androgynous, bigender, dualgender, non-gender, all gender, and any other identity or expression out there. This is why I said men or women or any other gender identity earlier.

[Mia Brankovic]

Michelle...This is the start of a 'code of conduct'...we are jumping the gun, a lil'; but continue...we would also require a mission statement.

Well...I'm out...it's official (the card is not for advertising purposes on this site (used only as an example)...also no contact info {cell, email} on my "FAN" cards). My 'Business' version has the contact info on the back

237472

[Jenniferathome]

... But someone has to initiate that change. ...

And I am doing exactly that. One person at a time. When I go out, I have positive experiences. The rock becomes sand. Now, as for support ing rights, I can state that I do support equal rights of anyone. In Idaho we had the "Add the Words" campaign. http://www.addthewords.org. I stood on the steps of the Capital Building. I wrote scathing emails and FB posts to my Governor and Senators. I will vote for the cause, but I will not throw rocks, threaten, or scream. Individuals can be the change.

[Princess Chantal]

Perhaps we need to work on, in my opinion - the biggest and most ingrained stereotype which is that we are out to deceive people. When I go out in public, I hope to make the notion of that my cross-dressing is not primarily for the sake of trickery and/or for some nefarious purpose.

[Michelle789]

Michelle...This is the start of a 'code of conduct'...we are jumping the gun, a lil'; but continue...we would also require a mission statement.

I don't think there needs to be a "code of conduct" for us. However, just think about it, if you start stripping in public places because you think you're trying to get some thrill out of it, you're setting a terrible example for the entire transgender community. I believe that showing the world that we're decent human beings is what we need to do. My so-called "code of conduct" are just ways in which we can achieve setting a positive example.

And my other point is this applies to everybody under the TG umbrella. CD, TS, genderqueer, and every other transgender identity or expression out there. We're trying to be visible and get people to change their perceptions of us from negative or non-existent to positive.

[Mia Brankovic]

Michelle...a Code of Conduct is simply common sense...I would sign onto a "no stripping in public" platform (my morals, ethics & values would allow any oath to a reasonable and just Code). However, Mission statements & Rules keep everyone looking down the same road...and going in the right direction. Rules suggest/imply planning...and no plan, no good.

Chantal: Transparency

Well...I've done it...I've just been purchasing Stationary for "Mia Brankovic: Female Impersonator"

[PaulaQ]

And I am doing exactly that. One person at a time. When I go out, I have positive experiences. The rock becomes sand. Now, as for support ing rights, I can state that I do support equal rights of anyone. In Idaho we had the "Add the Words" campaign. http://www.addthewords.org. I stood on the steps of the Capital Building. I wrote scathing emails and FB posts to my Governor and Senators. I will vote for the cause, but I will not throw rocks, threaten, or scream. Individuals can be the change.

Although we frequently disagree, Jennifer, I agree with you 100% on what you are doing. Being visible, living your life openly and honestly and using the normal political process for change will ultimately bring that change about. Kudos for your stance on "Add the Words," too.

You are exactly right. We aren't all great leaders. We don't all start movements. We don't all have to participate in protests - although you in fact did so. We just have to be visible. You are initiating change one person at a time, just as you say.

I honestly applaud your efforts.

[Marcelle]

Wow . . . this thread certainly has taken on a life of its own but it is all good debate.

When it comes to the TG spectrum we are diverse and on that we can agree. On one end we have the TS folks who have no choice and have to be out front in the Vanilla world as Lori indicated . . . kind of the TG version of forward "shock troops" leading the charge as they are visible each and every day of their lives. Behind them are the forward supporting elements and here we find those TG/CD folks who are out in the Vanilla world interacting on a part-time basis. In both these instances these two groups vary as well, some are just trying to survive in the world and others are more "direct action" (fighting for legislative change, advocacy groups, fighting for change at work, marching). However in either case they are doing what they see as relevant to them at the time. Will this force the world change and accept us? I think we can all agree not likely at this point in time. However I do agree with Jennifer that each little interaction even it just equates to tolerance begins to build a foundation from which acceptance can be built. I will have long shuffled off this mortal coil before we get there but I would like to think that I helped a bit in building the foundation :).

So what about those who never go out. I like to consider these folks the "rear echelon support elements". They may get close to the front lines but will never see battle in the Vanilla world. However we cannot discount the amount of support they bring be it just waving the banner from the sidelines or going to TG safe venues and mixing with others to provide that support. This doesn't mean these folks are any less willing to fight for rights for the TG world but for personal reasons they choose not to come out. However I suspect if there was a demonstration to support the rights of all people a lot of these folks might show-up (yes in drab) to lend support. It takes a lot of people to win a battle and not everyone gets to be or wants to be on the front lines.

So while it is fine to say "Go out, make a stand, be proud" as Lori so rightly put . . . to do so you need to have thick skin and be prepared for the fallout as once you do that there is no turning back.




My premise is the same. One person at a time. One positive interaction after another. Marching on the street will not work. Awareness days will not work. We go out, act normal, Interact with the normals and things will change. There is no acceleration I can imagine.

Jennifer, I have to disagree on this point. When I accepted that I am TG and came out to my wife the next phase was to stop denying it in my life complete. I will not transition (not TS) but still spend about 40 percent of my time "en femme". I got tired of trying to hide that at work and decided to be quite open . . . so I am out at work. I don't dress at work as current military policy (Canadian here folks) does not allow me to do so. Even if it did, I am not certain I would. However, the current military policy makes accommodation for TS folks to dress in the target gender as part of real life experience. When I saw this was touted at the "TG Policy" I asked the question where is the inclusiveness of this policy. Why is it that I as TG who likes to present "en femme" part-time cannot have the same rights as someone who wishes to transition. For example, if I want to get my ears pierced I cannot because the studs need to stay in for about 5 weeks to allow the hole to heal correctly. Males cannot wear earrings in uniform (even plastic keepers) so I have no recourse. However if I was afford the same rights to express my gender variance, I could make an appeal to change the dress regulations to accommodate my gender variance and get permission to wear clear plastic keepers while the ear heals. Right now there is nothing that allows me do so. As well, on days when civilian clothing is authorized at work I am not allowed to wear "women's clothing" or present "en femme" should I choose. There is nothing saying I can't but there is not policy that says I can. So I asked the questions and was invited to a working group to address the policy writers . . . I went "en femme" and stated my case. I now work on the policy re-write.

So there is an acceleration of sorts from just going out. However, again it all goes to comfort level and how much exposure you are willing to risk and as I stated above, not everyone is prepared to risk everything. Does it make them less supportive? Nope. It is just up to others to give them voice and perhaps some day they will see it is not all that bad and take a few strides forward. :)

Hugs

Isha

[Mia Brankovic]

Isha...I concur.


My exploits are simply that: "mine"...I'm going to do what is best for me...and of course, I'll do it in "Mia fashion" ;)

Hugs, back at you...

[missmars]

Counter-productive to acceptance. If only passable CDers were "allowed" in public, there would be no way for the public to see that men in dresses aren't a threat. They would see only men or women.
Some women dress and make up in ways that draw criticism here when CDers do the same. While you're banning some CDers from going out in public, be sure to ban those women, too.

I agree with Nicole

[pamela7]

To go to the original question " how do we change our view in society?"

i see a three-fold strategy.

1. we need to sort out our own self-image, personally and as a community
2. the right books, videos, films, documentaries, media that does shift public opinion - through our representative organisations perhaps?
3. one person at a time (Jennifer)

as part of this, educate the professionals - doctors, lawyers, politicians, teachers and heads, student and faculty bodies. this would look like leaflet and media campaigning, it would look like a small channel tv series focussing on CD in particular e.g. on community channel in the uk, it would focus on how harmless the CD is, how actually nice and less violent the CD folk are, perhaps links with quakers or other peaceful or harmless communities

if anyone wants to discuss practical steps and ways to address the initial question of this thread - then contact me, i'm in.

xxx Pamela

[ManMadeMan]

Hi, I read that. I agree, to a point. To ban anyone from being or expressing who they are, be they CD's LGBT or straight. Is basically, " segregation." I have voiced this at the oval-office. It had an effect for change. However the change is coming slowly. I am truly saddened, by the fact that anybody would have to be segregated, by ones who do not understand. What difference does it make to what a person wears, expressing themselves. As opposed to what they think they see...Change.
Often change scares those who find it over whelming. To have their small perception's, of to what our society on a whole, should be like. A prime example of the change, is Kristen Beck. She is running for Congress in U.S. Be more public, if you are comfortable there, cross dressed. The more the nay say'ers, see that it does not bother most, then perhaps, if they can not change. At the very least they can keep their feeble opinions to themselves. "As the ones who baulk in ignorance, are steadfast becoming old news."~GJ

Look me up on tweet'n site Pamela. Some of my UK followers, may be able to help you see the practical steps become a positive reality of acceptance.
I am at..(the wee symbol for it) AA4F Gregory J. Thedore, there. Look forwards to chatting.
Peace Out!

[Aylineira]

I agree with some of the posters.

The only way to change perception is by those of us who are crossdressed to go out and mingle and do everyday things en femme and be a "normal" person.

I always applaud those that already do this on a every day basis because slowly they are the ones who are changing the face of our world.

[PaulaQ]

1. we need to sort out our own self-image, personally and as a community
2. the right books, videos, films, documentaries, media that does shift public opinion - through our representative organisations perhaps?
3. one person at a time (Jennifer)


I'm just going to put this out here, and say it the way it is. Crossdressers need to stand up and work with the rest of the transgender community to make real political changes for us in our society. That means a bunch of you coming out, and owning this, and standing up with the rest of the trans community.

There are a lot of crossdressers. But y'all get benefits like being able to safely go out en femme, use public restrooms that correspond to your gender, largely through the efforts of other transgender people - particularly transsexuals. The thing is, the rest of the trans community is tiny - we're between 0.3% and 1% of the population. And most of us are dirt poor. We rely on help from the Gay and Lesbian community to get anything done. The problem is that historically, the "LGB" of "LGBT" have been quite unreliable allies. (Let's leave the poor "bisexuals" out of this - they don't get much better treatment in the L&G community than we do - they just generally have much better options to be stealthy.)

In the 80's, the gay and lesbian movement just dumped trans people, and a radical feminist lesbian helped shape public policy against medical treatment for trans who transition. They've thrown us under the bus with ENDA, and even in local politics that I am dealing with here at home, today, the LGB groups have little to know trans representation in them, and they still throw us under the bus to get stuff they want, even if it comes at the expense of transgender people.

I expect that gay marriage will become the law of the land - which it should be in my view. When it does, it is unclear what the greater gay and lesbian movement will try to achieve next. Depending on the political climate here, I worry that a more conservative leaning US could strike out against transgender people in backlash over gay marriage. And my fear is the gay and lesbian groups could simply allow that to happen - severing ties with us altogether. And folks, if that happens, people like me are 0.3% of the population. And it really doesn't take that much to make our lives impossible. Without support from a larger group, we would have no power to stop such things.

Think this is impossible? Think I'm paranoid? I watched this happen in the 80's. It was around the time I first considered transition. Did you know that in the late 70's, some health insurance providers here in the states began to provide for coverage of transgender medical care. What happened? Conservative politicians, partly given aid and cover by lesbian and gay groups, pulled the plug on that. Our rights moved backwards, while gay and lesbian rights advanced, albeit slowly. Perhaps it would've been different had it not been for AIDS, but I doubt it.

The cis people in the United States, at any rate, by and large do not understand us. A lot of them are highly transphobic. It is easy to stigmatize and demonize us. Our gay and lesbian allies are really, in my personal experience, very little better about understanding us. I live in the heart of the gay community in Dallas. I have a ton of gay friends. Almost none of them really understand what I go through, or why I go through it. The gay and lesbian political groups I've dealt with have been little better. Indeed, I've been told, numerous times, very politely mind you, to STFU by these groups. Some friends, huh?

Stand up. Make a difference. Fight for protection against discrimination against trans people because you are fighting for yourselves, as well as transsexuals like me. Shouldn't you be able to openly express this part of you, without fear?

Well, whatever you choose to do, I'll still fight to support the CD side of the trans* community. But I can tell you this - if you think the greater gay and lesbian population gives are damn about heterosexual crossdressers, you are sadly mistaken. They may be shaky allies for transsexuals, but for the most part, they know nothing about you, and care even less. (For lesbian and gay folks who are supportive, or are trans yourselves who may read this - I'm really not talking about you. I just meet so few who even really try to understand the issues of a trans person. I do get a lot of "don't worry, we'll come back for you!" Or "well, civil rights changes take time - wait your turn and be patient." Or sometimes even someone who clearly doesn't understand me well explaining to me just what I need to be protected. Oh there is an awful lot of all of that.)

[Kate T]

Grow up, own it and lose the chip on our shoulder. Oh and for crying out loud, stop whinging and complaining about how we get such a rough deal when we will quite happily go along with the discrimination against women that a fair number of us perpetuate (e.g. Why don't women wear dresses or makeup anymore. Because they are sick and tired of having to conform to society's view of the "ideal" woman).

[pamela7]

Crossdressers need to stand up and work with the rest of the transgender community to make real political changes for us in our society. That means a bunch of you coming out, and owning this, and standing up with the rest of the trans community.


The nail and the head meet, when the secret is so private even the SO does not know, when the % population is (allegedly) so small, when the % of CD/TS/TG being LBG is so small, when there is antipathy towards CD from L and G, it shows us what we need to do.

1. Explain ourselves, a CD manifesto
2. Demand an equal representation at the LGBT leadership table with the LGB's
3. Point out the sillinesses - a) okayness for women in man-clothes but not vice versa, b) okayness for hysterectomies but orchidectomies require years of psychiatric treatment?, c) actors wear wigs and make-up, no big deal, d) the likes of Izzard and Brand crossdress with no problem, e) the sillinesses in our own minds
4. Publicise that things are changing e.g. Selfridges in London going unisex in all 3 clothing floors for adults, make ourselves look a bigger minority than we are, find closet politicians - there will be some,
5. explain through a TV series, as the big-bang theory does for high-functioning autism
6. explain through reality TV / internet, and ...

separate CD from TG/TS ... expand LGBT to LGBTC, and get 2 seats on the table with LGB

[Danitgirl1]

By looking out ofi a different window!
Flippant comment but it has a deeper meaning.
Perhaps if we change the way we view ourselves, we would change the way others viewed us?
Easy to say, hard to achieve.
We all need to accept who we are, be proud of ourselves.
Be polite and productive members of society but be unapologetic.
United we stand divided we fall.

[NicoleScott]

...find closet politicians - there will be some...

What got my attention is not what you said, but what you didn't say. Staying on topic (How can we change our view in society), how can FINDING closet politicians change the view?

[pamela7]

What got my attention is not what you said, but what you didn't say. Staying on topic (How can we change our view in society), how can FINDING closet politicians change the view?

1. it would change my view, because then I'd know people with the ability to propose legislation are onside, albeit secretly.
2. politicians are by their very nature top networkers. if they put their mind to it they could risklessly connect media/inlfuencers to put out subtle messages
3. a politician wanting to prove their diversity credentials might be persuadable to champion a minority without a champion, if they're in the closet, then maybe they can see personal benefits, at least after they retire!

PS I'm a natural rule-breaker ... keep telling me why we can't and i'll smash down those objections and a path to wider acceptance of our demographic!!! I'll huff and i'll puff and i'll blow those piggy-houses down!

[Lily Catherine]

Guess it really starts at the individual level for now, behaving like 'normal people' (a term that I dislike, but feels slightly more favourable compared to 'typical') and generally being harmless and of good will. If we're a larger minority than we seem, the entropy would increase over a larger area of effect. That again being said, I daresay some of us (myself included) have our concerns and/or worries about the resultant fallout. One word out, and even the fastest team of horses would never catch up with it (Chinese proverb, loosely translated). But if we succeed – a twenty-foot-tall 'IF', at least that would break down the stereotypes some muggles have of us.

*sigh* Sadly, the media is generally not quite ahead as far as I know with cross-dressing, and the social deviant aspect is in my opinion overplayed to the point of annoyance; even 'comedic value' or cross-dressing for laughs is no longer funny past that point. Within the anime scene for one, this one 'comedy' series entitled Himegoto gave us CDs a very, very bad name, and that's in all honesty an understatement. As far as cures go, nothing really much within our agency as individuals. Hopefully we get portrayed in a more positive light than what the mainstream media makes us out to be; I can no longer stand CDs being treated as either the subject of a joke, or an extreme case of deviancy without exception. :Angry3:

That said I have a larger grouse with the broad brushes that we're always painted with thanks to those on the more extreme end of social deviancy (read: wearing only lingerie out, performing lewd acts in public en femme, etc.), but once again the most idealistic belief in going out into the vanilla world as life goes on would have that covered, emphasis being on 'exception' being 'exceptional' rather than every other case.


Perhaps we need to work on, in my opinion - the biggest and most ingrained stereotype which is that we are out to deceive people.

Would say this is one of the cruxes of it, in the sense of 'disguised in drag' - a common Shakespearean notion, incidentally – what the heck with successfully passing being considered a Holy Grail. I posit that intentions form a major part of their assumptions (where do you think the term 'trap' comes from?). Couple this acquired narrative of deception with the fact that many of us CDs have been compelled to hide this side of us – emphasis on hide and its negative connotations and you have a cocktail of generally bad intentions. Once again, assumptions that make a colossal a** out of you and me and especially the assumer.

[Katey888]

Pamela, I admire your spunk with this subject... :)

I've pondered on the idea of the closeted celeb or politician a while back, but I keep coming back to reality on a number of views but the biggest kicker for me is this one:

- Before you even go looking for a closeted bigwig to come swishing and click-clacking out of the closet, take a look at the entire western world and western culture and name THREE, serious, influential, crossdressing individuals - not including transexuals (who, after all, are really trying to present and live as their internal self identifies)... :waiting:

I think we kid ourselves on a couple of points that are salient to how we may be received by normal society:

1) That there is a relatively high percentage of MtF crossdressers in the general population
2) They would all suddenly come flying out of their closets if CDing hit any sort of political agenda

I don't mean to be cynical, but take the example of Tim Cook, Apple CEO... he was a long, long way up that greasy pole before he declared his sexual orientation, and the LGB community are far better protected and accepted than we are...

I just don't see it... don't get me wrong, I'm not against campaigning, but I don't see any politicians in our community revealing their 'inner selves' as a big part of the way forward... but I wish I was wrong... :)

Katey x

[NicoleScott]

Pamela, all valid points, but I'm interested to know that if you found a closeted crossdresser politician you would respect his decision to remain private at this time, or to advance your agenda you would huff and puff and blow his closet down. Would you out him?

[LilSissyStevie]

Am I missing something? Is there some right that CDs desperately need that they don't already have? What laws need to be passed? The only thing I can think of is laws giving CDs the trivial "right" of taking a crap in the women's bathroom. That's not something I care about. Other than that, I don't remember anyone kicking down my door and confiscating my petticoats. However, there are plenty of "trans* friendly" politicians that want to take away rights guaranteed to me by the Bill of Rights. A pox on them all.

[AngelaYVR]

Nothing we do as CDs is illegal. The only grey area is bathroom use. I am not part of some global advancement group nor do I need to be.

[pamela7]

Pamela, all valid points, but I'm interested to know that if you found a closeted crossdresser politician you would respect his decision to remain private at this time, or to advance your agenda you would huff and puff and blow his closet down. Would you out him?

oh no, i did not intend to say i'd out him. I'd play on the idea life would be easier for him AFTER he's retired from politics.



I just don't see it... don't get me wrong, I'm not against campaigning, but I don't see any politicians in our community revealing their 'inner selves' as a big part of the way forward... but I wish I was wrong... :)

Katey x

no, they don't need to reveal, just get support happening as part of their natural horsetrading ... "my mate is a CD'er, actually they're mostly 100% hetero guys who like cd-ing, ..., and I'd like to know I've helped him and his friends before I leave office" ...

[Pat]

Nothing we do as CDs is illegal.

Probably not now, but in the early 60's my uncle was on the Boston vice squad and I recall him telling me about a nightclub raid where they arrested men for wearing women't clothing. I didn't get the sense that Boston was unique in this regard. Tolerance hasn't always been in fashion and the danger is that it might go out of fashion at some point and without a legal underpinning you have no rights.

[Genifer Teal]

One thing is for sure. Parents do not want crossdressers near their children! I was out my second time out, in Seattle in 2005, and a family in a car parked next to mine, had a dead battery. The father reluctantly had to ask me ,(all dressed up, in short dress, and dark hose, and high heels), for a battery jump. So, as i would always do, in guy mode, said yes i will. He then told his children, to not look.

If he said that right in front of me, I would have said something back. Normally I never speak my mind but if I am to help him, I must. I would have asked him to apologize, then tell his children not to judge people until you know them. After all, you were helping him, that should speak something to our character. If that was too much, forget the jump. Call tripple A and wait an hour. If you hate us that much you deserve it.

[sometimes_miss]

How can we change our view in society. Well, it's happening already. Most kids are way more accepting than say, even 20 years ago, and most of those kids will turn into tolerant adults. Education. Learn tolerance; and learning that there's no danger from gay, ts, tg, cd, etc.. It's coming. It's just going to take time, and we live in a society where everyone wants everything right now. Ain't gonna happen. I don't think I'll see in in my lifetime. And I'm o.k. with that.

[Kate T]

- Before you even go looking for a closeted bigwig to come swishing and click-clacking out of the closet, take a look at the entire western world and western culture and name THREE, serious, influential, crossdressing individuals -

David Williams, Eddie Izzard, David Bowie, Tilda Swinton, James Franco, Ellen Degenres spring to mind readily.

[ophelia]

Patience is the only answer. But frankly I don't have the energy it takes to carry this cross.

[Brandy Mathews]

Miss is right, it is going to take time. It is happening but it is going to take alot of time. And I agree that we probably won't see the change in our lfetime.
Bree :)

[Katey888]

David Williams, Eddie Izzard, David Bowie, Tilda Swinton, James Franco, Ellen Degenres spring to mind readily.

Adina - I'm sorry, you must have missed the serious and influential part... :)

Actors, musicians, celebrities, artists... exactly my point - they are not taken seriously and they are rarely influential in policy for legislation or societal changes that have a real impact on peoples' lives and understanding. I might give you Ellen DeGeneres as being the most influential but I don't believe most of her audience will perceive of her as a crossdresser: they see her as lesbian and don't look any further.

Even if you look at the LGB community there are still a relatively small number - I'd love to see someone doing it seriously but I think we overestimate both the extent of our pervasiveness and the numbers out there who really care about the CD/TG/TS world... Another good reason to remain allied and strengthen the bonds with LGB.

Katey x

[pamela7]

I'd love to see someone doing it seriously but I think we overestimate both the extent of our pervasiveness and the numbers out there who really care about the CD/TG/TS world... Another good reason to remain allied and strengthen the bonds with LGB.

Katey x

So, ASSUMING that 90%+ of politicians, judges, top law-makers are all into S&M, how does that angle work?

[ophelia]

This has always been interesting to me. Joan of Arc was burned for religious opposition to female to male crossdressing. From Diane Keaton in Annie Hall to Catherine Hepburn. women have casually and accepabtably crossdressed forever in suits, jeans, hats and boots. Yet I think the majority of our kind are heterosexual. Male homosexuals rarely adopt female dress.
Ellen Degeneres highlights one of the curiousities. Many lesbians still dress overtly in male clothes as identification. However the grandest majority of male crossdressers are hetero...and don't associate their preferred clothing and hairdressing as sexual...
Rambling.....Verklempt (Mike Myers on SNL) talk among yourselves...

[Helen_Highwater]

Things are achangin'. I recently took part in an online survey asking what I thought about a revamped web site. When it came to the bit about me, age, ethnic origin etc the "sex" question was, "What gender do you present as?". That is a huge leap forward in terms of enlightened thinking. It shows a growing awareness that gender isn't set in stone.

[pamela7]

:-) "presenting" anthropologically-speaking is to place oneself in sexual readiness to a partner ...

but seriously, I like the progress, "dress as" would be better!

[meganmartin]

Carly,

It's mostly misconceptions others have on what a crossdresser is and what they assume.
think the best thing we can do is while out represent ourself in the best possible way.

While out if others have questions I encourage them to ask rather that than they just assume something that is incorrect.

And Kudos to your wife for being so supportive.

[Khora]

This is a topic that becomes more and more important to me as time wears on. The fact that I feel the pressure to be ashamed and disgusted with something that I so very much enjoy, because of the society that has been created by ignorant and prejudiced human beings, frustrates and irritates me more and more. I didn't read all of the posts in this thread, but I did come across one pointing out the fact that within our society, women and feminine traits are still seen as weak and submissive. So a man who's supposed to be -insert typical acceptable male trait-, desires not to conform and display "weaker" feminine traits is going to be seen as inferior and ridiculed. Just think about the derogatory terms that are used as insults amongst men. We all know what they are so it doesn't bear repeating, but they almost always refer to something female. I often wonder if our society becomes more accepting of the fact that women are fully and unequivocally equal human beings to men, transgender individuals might be more accepted.

[Zeldamoonflower]

Be good normal people. If we show the world were good people slowly But surely people will become more accepting.

[Kimonogirl]

There are no Asian activist MtFs or at least crossdressers who work (fight, crusade) for their rights. And still almost every Japanese Okamas and Thai Katoeys wish to remain as prostitutes and it somewhat sullies their image

[scarletcd]

Be good normal people. If we show the world were good people slowly But surely people will become more accepting.

This ^ I try and do what I can on the online space but it's going to be a slow fight.
People are far more accepting than ever before although I still hear people in their late teens use derogatary terms and what not.

[Rhanda]

In another thread I said that in my neck of the woods, cross dressing is is accepted by most people. I have gone dressed most of the time. I also wear makeup even when I am in guy mode, especially eye makeup. Once in a while someone will say something about it and I just tell them that I like to dress attractively and ask them if they think it looks nice. I have never had a bad response. One time I thought I was going to be attacked by a man who was angry and asked me why I was wearing eye shadow. I told him it was none of his business. He began to shout at the top of his voice. Later , I found out that he was a pastor of a Cult Church that preaches intolerance and meddles into every ones life if they can.
The thing that we all have to remember is that we will not be accepted by every one and to act as though we have rites. Be as pleasant as possible and look the best that we can, act the best that we can. Nice people are more acceptable, regardless of how the look.

Rhanda