Nature and...reprogramming?

[kimdl93]

From my readings of published research on gender Identity, it seems quite clear that transgendered women,(externally GM), share some features of brain anatomy with GGs. Also, there is abundant evidence of brain plasticity, that is, at least to some extent, the adult brain can learn new behaviors or use undamaged parts to take over functions lost when other parts of the brain are damaged. I find encouragement in both. Knowing that my brain very likely developed with some female attributes helps me put documented early childhood feelings and behaviors into a meaningful context and has helped me put aside those old feelings of guilt and shame. This helps me understand why as an adult l have so consistently identified with women and experienced intimacy in my mind as a woman.

I find the latter, the resiliency and plasticity of the brain encouraging as I increasingly seek to embrace and express femininity'in my life. Some behaviors are innate, but those that reflect male origins and socialization are, at least to some degree (I'm hoping) malleable.

I also suspect that as I accept myself and practice and just live as a woman, l may be reinforcing and effectively rewiring my mind to be more receptive to coming out, progressing and accepting the possibilities of life as a woman.

I dont for a moment think one can learn to be TS. I do think that once one accepts oneself as transgender it becomes easier to explore and embrace possibilities one once believed impossible.

Any thoughts?

[Frances]

I am not going to make any friends here.

Dick Schwabb's research centers on nerve endings that have to do with sexual functions. Remapping of brain functions after injuries or surgery concerns functions such as speach, none to do with sense of self or identity. I don't know what female attributes you are thinking of, but I am sure they are found in the male population as well. Getting over guilt and finding the courage to come out is done through therapy.

Here's the worst part. Transition is about being yourself and not about putting on a role. You should become a woman if you are a woman.

Now everyone can tell how wrong I am.

[kimdl93]

Not gonna hear an argument from me. I'm a gender mutt...I'll acknowledge that again and again, because I never had a clear, unequivocal female identity. It was murky, but apparent enough to others, it seems to earn me some nicknames that were intended to be derisive...house boy stands out from pre school. I never knew precisely what I was doing that was so wrong, but I got the message.

Brain plasticity...no I'm not relearning my identity. But just as learning a language is possible, though more difficult as an adult, I am hopeful that the things that cry out male may be mitigated through practice.

Going back to your final point, yes, you should be a woman if you are a woman. Totally agree. Now, what if you are 74/25 f/m, but wish to live as a woman? Something's gotta give. My perhaps baseless hope is that I can learn to diminish that 25% just a bit more.

[Frances]

There is nothing wrong with being gender variant or having any kind of gender expression that falls outside the norm. There are many ways of being a human being. There is no reason to force anything. Outside validation should point to your being a woman or not, but what if it does not? Learning to live with that reality is another very important part of our transitioning.

I don't get misgendered, but I am quite boyish. I certainly did not change my expression, if anything, I am not forcing anything anymore. I guess you can undo conditioning, but adding something will always seem affected, you know?

Gender identity is the constant, the body is the variation. Hopefully, transition should be about changing what can be changed, not reprogramming what is burned in.

[kimdl93]

I don't really want to force or manipulate myself. At the same time, I hope to manage or shape the image I present towards the person I feel inside. I tried the androgynous presentation. it didn't feel right to me and I got more perplexed looks from others than I do when I present as a woman.

I hesitate to say I Am a woman because I lack the clarity possessed by a TS person. And because I'm relatively speaking, big. So in some sense it does come to a choice and given the choice, I choose woman. But at the same time, I know I need to work on my voice in particular. My mind and mannerisms were set long before I knew what any of this was about.

[Angela Campbell]

It seems to me that after a lifetime of living as a male, and spending so much energy learning how to make others see you that way, it will naturally feel awkward to begin learning how to come across as a woman. That is not forcing at all, it is a necessary thing in my eyes. Yes it takes time for it to feel and look natural but all learned things are like that.

And there has been studies that show on mri imaging the differences in the brain of a man and a woman. Funny thing the same areas in a gay male match the male image patterns but the image of the ts matched more closely with the female brain. I tried to find the article, just saw it the other day but the images were very interesting.

[kimdl93]

Hi Angela, the imaging studies reinforced autopsy studies...but I'm not ready to subject myself to that. Interestingly, gay and TS brains had a similarity at one level..and disparity at another. Shape and size of some male gay brain structure were similar to TS and GGS, but the internal structure...if I'm correct, the number and arrangement of neurons was discernibly different between GG/TS and gay male brains. (Gender vs sexuality?).

Back to plasticity...I doubt that any of us think...ah....yes, now I feel womanly.n but we are each conscious of where we maybe fall short. I like to think...and perhaps that's self delusion...that I can unlearn some of that male stuff.

[Inna]

Kim, I applaud you for your opening statement.

You have the grasp of whats at stake and the direction of things to come.

"I just want to be me" is both, correct and incorrect, depending on level of understanding.

In fact what is "being ME?" I am not quite sure easy question to answer.

Gender is after all a product of how we as individuals fit within the societal gradient, it is our innate feeling of belonging to a group of specific attributes.
Ones sex is however determined by genetic makeup, and therefore external from our perceived inner being.

Being a woman is as much a personification as is being a man, both aspects are conditioned and learned, being a female or a male on the other hand is dictated by genetic code within the cells.

So who are you?

I tend to feel my self as eternal, unchanging, non-gender, non-local entity or rather energy, which exists through energy of love. In order to experience this realm of corporeal existence this energy, "ME" manifests ego, and this ego connects to the matter or perhaps where energy intersects ego, matter of this world springs to life.

From the first step, word, look, I have been learning how to be this body, this human avatar I occupy. Most of the character I have gathered was corrupt by misalignment of my inner gender to the body of genetics I didn't want yet had to obey.
Now, I have embraced the harmony within and devoted my self to relearning the character to suit the inner gender.
Almost everything had changed, remarkable how pliable this brain of ours truly is.
It had changed so much that when I look back at the decisions and style of handling things this former man had done, I do not understand him at all, nor would I want to have any part in being with him.

[kimdl93]

Inna, I probably need to maintain my perspective carefully for the simple reason that I only know "I" in the context I've lived...much of that living as an avatar before there where avatars.

This much I can say with conviction and confidence: I am ....not I feel or I am more at peace... But I am when I am a woman. I am an avatar when I am obliged to be a man.

[RachelReaper]

I am not going to make any friends here.

Transition is about being yourself and not about putting on a role. You should become a woman if you are a woman.
.

Interesting comments which seem to conflict a bit. "Transition is about being yourself", but you go on to say that "you should become a woman..." Hmmm. Let's think about that. If you are a woman, why do need to become a woman? I understand what you are trying to say but the way you expressed it strikes me as a problem.

"Transition.....is not about putting on a role." Let's think about this too. Are we putting on a role when we spend hours practicing our new voice? How about when we practice our new role-appropriate mannerisms? How about when we adjust our role in society and assume a more subservient place? (that is, not too macho or dominant) Does all of that count as putting on a new role?

Or is all of that training just about being our natural self?

Of course I can anticipate someone making the old claim that we are simply uncovering or revealing our inner self, or unlearning an old role. However, is "unlearning an old role", just a different way of saying that we are "putting on a new role"? In many respects, it sounds like we are reprogramming ourselves......practice makes perfect! Something to think about.

[kimdl93]

I have a tendency to quote Forrest Gump in these discussions. Honestly, I think "it's a little of both". I believe that, muddled as I am, I am perhaps 3/4 woman in that peculiar brain area that determines such things...but after a lifetime of repression and courtesy body parts that did not get the message, I have some relearning to do.

[Beth-Lock]

.... l may be reinforcing and effectively rewiring my mind to be more receptive to coming out, progressing and accepting the possibilities of life as a woman. .... I do think that once one accepts oneself as transgender it becomes easier to explore and embrace possibilities one once believed impossible.

One's brain fucntioning definitely changes with the change in hormone balance. Unexpectedly, simply reducing the testosterone levels by removal of the testes, can change one's behaviour and move it towards the female. How far this affects brain structure is hard to gauge.. I have been going over some of the advanced and mathematical material I had trouble learning so long ago, and now I can settle down longer, concentrate and focus, on it and actually start to understand it. Completely unexpected benefit.

If I had got this benefit long ago, my role playing would have changed. I would have got a better degree, and a more technical one. I would have played the role of a real professional since I would have obtained the ceritifcation to become a professional. Whether I could have gone so far in educational level as to be able to insist on being addressed as Doctor, (or Maitre), and changed my behaviour as a result, who knows? If I changed gender it would have attracted more attention, perhaos a mention in the media, and I would have had to dress more conservatively, and keep my mini-skirts for wear in gym only. (LOL)

[noeleena]

Hi,

Depends on how your wired . and i dont know how you are . myself hard wired female and i know nothing about male wiring nothing there,

many years ago i thought i did that was me trying to figure men out i failed on that ,

our brains are a computer so can we be reconfigured yes as to how much i doint know .

many here say as they dress or trans they change their thinking is it to act a part as some again say they did as a male whlie they were living life ,maybe i dont know ,

If i look at from where i am could i live as a male and think as a male and change my thinking or rewire my brain , well what do i have to work with could i act that part of a male .

How the hell would i when i dont understand males dont think like one and never have and from birth , yes i worked for men and could talk about work and related issues yes i had to talk in their language to be able to be understood.... knowlage if you like .... and learning

To learn something is not rewiring, i wonder if this is more a wont to be like a woman because so many do for myself its not as some know i never wonted to be a female well a complete one , yet i am i did not wont to be a woman i am because i have grown into being one , and like most females we grow into being women . none of that is about rewiring is it its a normal process for us most of us females any way.

nothing to do with clothes , more to do with child bearing , bonding and just being who we are not trying to be other than who we are and from birth, much of the talk is about changing from male to woman and how to get there,

My ? is how are you wired think and feel inside not about a wont to just be other than you are ,
when it comes down to it who are you thats the ? you need to ask your self, can you.

I could wonder whats it like to be a male can you answer that , you see i cant,
oh..... then we have nature and nurture for myself nature and born this way .i cant escape from female Hmmm...... interesting .....

...noeleena...

[kimdl93]

I doubt I'd get many arguments if I acknowledged having some of my wires crossed. But since those wires were crossed a long time ago in the womb, I pretty much have to work with what I've got. The challenge of trying to follow the middle path is that while one is maintaining balance, forces...the need pulls this way, the expectations of others pulls the other....I guess if one is lucky the forces are equal. But then again they could tear a person apart.

[Rogina B]

"Transition.....is not about putting on a role." Let's think about this too. Are we putting on a role when we spend hours practicing our new voice? How about when we practice our new role-appropriate mannerisms? How about when we adjust our role in society and assume a more subservient place? (that is, not too macho or dominant) Does all of that count as putting on a new role?

Or is all of that training just about being our natural self?

Of course I can anticipate someone making the old claim that we are simply uncovering or revealing our inner self, or unlearning an old role. However, is "unlearning an old role", just a different way of saying that we are "putting on a new role"? In many respects, it sounds like we are reprogramming ourselves......practice makes perfect! Something to think about.

As someone that has been socially transitioning for ten years now,I agree. There is a lot to learn and "cutting the line" is not a fast tract toward behaving and being accepted as a woman by others.The traits and feelings that some of us were born with make social transitioning a smooth learning curve of progress. Not hard,as I am only bringing to the surface what was inside..And I am glad that I chose to be myself to my world.

[kimdl93]

I have no doubt that some mannerisms and speech patterns can be innate and others learned. As a child I was teased for the way I walked, so I learned to lumber like a man. Recapturing my natural gait hasn't required conscious effort. My voice on the other hand remains a work in progress and though I practice every day the progress is slow and results so so.

When I started this thread I was really thinking about how the deliberate efforts combined with a mindset open to the possibilities may together in effect make one more receptive to change. I guess a big part of learning and behavior modification is receptiveness.

[Frances]

"Transition.....is not about putting on a role." Let's think about this too. Are we putting on a role when we spend hours practicing our new voice? How about when we practice our new role-appropriate mannerisms? How about when we adjust our role in society and assume a more subservient place? (that is, not too macho or dominant) Does all of that count as putting on a new role?

What makes you think I have to do any of that? I stood out before, not now.

[RachelReaper]

When I started this thread I was really thinking about how the deliberate efforts combined with a mindset open to the possibilities may together in effect make one more receptive to change. I guess a big part of learning and behavior modification is receptiveness.



I dont for a moment think one can learn to be TS. I do think that once one accepts oneself as transgender it becomes easier to explore and embrace possibilities one once believed impossible.

Any thoughts?

I agree completely.

I wonder though if the quoted statement would be true if we substituted female for TS. I believe we will never know if that is true, but it probably does not matter anyway, as long as one is living a peaceful successful life.

[Inna]

I shall put a further spin on the above, and add that transgender, transsexual, or simply trans is a "mindset" of accepting that in fact one is suffering from gender dysphoria. I wasn't trans when I was born, I was innately born a woman, however my discourse in growing up and denial had driven the girl within to the deepest crevasse of subconsciousness.
When I finally gave in to the notion, that perhaps I am BROKEN, that perhaps I am not who everyone else makes me to be, such reveal had made me Trans, a state of consciousness confirming my discourse.
Once I have started the journey of reveal, I was still trans. Then I have emerged into the light of this reality, as truly, a person I was since my birth, then, I simply seized to exist as transient, Trans, and rejoined my true self, that innately of a woman!

[Kaitlyn Michele]

If you transition you realize how much time you may have wasted thinking about these semantics... The day to day permanence of it becomes who you are.... the way you act IS the woman that you are... its no more complicated than that.... lots of natal genetic women take time to learn to act like women or spend time emulating other women that they admire
...why take that away from me because i was born as an apparent male? why make anything of that at all??

Just living as yourself gives you incredible personal satisfaction, and it releases you from worrying about whether you overdid on the voice...and as i started i think overdo it sometimes!!! but that felt wrong...and i talk mostly like i did as a guy.

Kim i think you are right to explore and be receptive to what you find...its really that simple...no need to worry about brain chemistry or roles.. if you push ahead, your experiences will inform your next steps. its getting caught up in thinking too much, trying to define the undefinable (75%/25% m/f how can we possibly know??)

maybe this is the best way to say it..

if you feel like you are living a "role", then you are not in the right place yet.

[kimdl93]

Yeah, the peculiar blend really isn't quantifiable. And I agree also that one's life shouldn't be role to be played. The only time I really feel like I'm role playing is when I'm obliged by circumstance to present as a male.

I do engage in idle speculation when I ponder where I began this journey and all the surprises I've experienced along the way. Thus far, each new revelation has made me look forward to the next.

[Marleena]

Kim this sure is a deep thinker's thread.:) You're right, one can't learn to, or become TS unless they are TS. However a male can move further along the TG scale (genderfluid) by presenting and living female fulltime or nearly fulltime. One may also find they buried or denied the fact that they are female (TS) if they trigger the dysphoria through escalation or whatever. That's when a gender therapist is required. The only thing that helped me (dysphoria) so far was HRT. In fact I might be the oddball here but at this point it does not matter what I'm wearing I feel right and like me (maybe that's how GG's feel). Imagine going through life looking like grumpy cat.lol. That used to be me.

I'm sitting on the fence as far as transitioning further, hoping HRT will be enough. Looking around here that doesn't seem to be the case.

[KellyJameson]

My gender identity as a woman always had a life of its own and I spent large amounts of emotional and mental energy trying to "control her" or "kill her"

Doing this places you in direct conflict with yourself. You are trying to cut off from yourself most of what you are.

For myself there are two ways I have experienced being a woman. My identity and the reality of living this identity in the world.

Human beings are both concrete and permanent as that which has been with you since birth and will follow you to the grave and plastic as that part of you that is changeable and malleable.

A boy is not a man and a girl is not a woman and a man or woman of twenty is not the same as one at fifty. Life shapes you and you shape life.

I personally do not think it is possible to change ones "gender identity" because it is made out of the the stuff that is concrete. If it was possible to change this identity there would be no suffering caused by the inability to do so.

The brain is both plastic and permanent. Changeable and unchanging. I have "always" identified with woman because I have "always" experienced myself as female.

I move toward that which is similar to me as to my gender (sense of self) and it is this sense of self that resulted in my identifying with girls as a child and women as an adult.

This sense of self has always been with me and it is unchanging and consistently pushed me toward the world of women and "my identity" .

I found myself in women in that they did not create me as to my identity but what was already in me was also in them which I "identified with"

It has absolutely nothing to do with gender roles but as an essence experienced as a type of emotional energy.

My brain works like a woman who is extremely feminine as to the mechanics of her brain.

I naturally practice diffuse awareness and extreme intuition. I can force myself to focus on one thing at once but it is very difficult because of this extreme awareness of everything going on around me and inside me. It is highly emotional and vibrates at a higher frequency and I have always been like this.

I also have never had "boy energy" . My physicality is and always has been very different from boys. It is quieter because I have always been chemically "fueled by something else"

This made boys overwhelming to me because they over stimulated me and I did not like how they played or interacted with me but the girls interacted with me as a complement to my own energy.

To be this way needs the right vessel to express it. To not transition is to remain "unexpressed and unlived" to "some degree"

I was compelled to express that which "is me" and "in me". I needed to have a relationship with the world "as a woman" from "being one"

Not to transition (whose extent is defined by each individual) is to live "incomplete and uncompleted"

We are compelled to move toward a destiny which is that thing(s) inside us meant to grow or we stagnate and stagnation is painful.

We all must live that which we are and so by extension meant to be, just as a seed has its destiny locked inside waiting until the right environment awakens and unlocks it.

Transitioning creates that environment.

[Jorja]

How about when we adjust our role in society and assume a more subservient place? (that is, not too macho or dominant).

I would like to know why people think that to live as a female means you are living a subservient lifestyle? I feel that some people have been looking at too much porn and not living a real quality life. I do not feel that transitioning to be myself as a female is a step down in any way. I am far from subservient but neither am I dominant. If anything I am equal to any living human being on this planet.

[Frances]

I wish there were a "like" button on this forum.

[RachelReaper]

I would like to know why people think that to live as a female means you are living a subservient lifestyle?

Regarding a subservient lifestyle, perhaps I used the wrong word. I tried to indicate that I meant less macho or domineering. I sure as hell don’t want my daughters to feel that they are subservient in any way, and I will never be a subservient person. I guess what I was trying to say that I have witnessed trans people trying to become sweet, demure, weak people to avoid the somewhat typical view that a strong confident woman is a bitch and butch. I hope you understand. I have friends that try hard to be quiet vulnerable females but it just doesn't work for them. Their inherent personality shines through in the long run. I have others friends that suddenly don’t know how to use an adjustable wrench, or they are suddenly afraid of spiders, or they pretend that they don’t know how to check the oil level in an engine, and so on. It’s clear to me that there is some role playing going on there…..and that really irritates me!!

[Kaitlyn Michele]

the folks that have transitioned are all expressing the same point of view...the idea of learning to "play a role" does not resonate...
nothing about my transition felt like role playing or pretending..! it felt like a brutal painful expensive humbling slog...but it was worth it...

i can't kill a girl for trying way to hard. there is no perfect roadmap and i can imagine we all have our ways to express our true selves and that evolves over time (just like any girl becoming a woman)..

btw what's an adjustable wrench??

[Traci Elizabeth]

As far as the brain is concerned, mine has been female since I was an embryo.

Today, I can tell you with all certainty, sincerity and truthfulness, I have NO idea what it was like to be a male. None whatsoever. Whatever was in my brain at that time in my life does not exist in my brain today. Even the memories are totally erased. I also can not remember what it was like to have a penis or to climax. That too is so far removed from my brain.All my thoughts and my dreams are as a woman. My brain tells me I have always been a woman and I live my life as any other woman does.

My partner and my children tell me that there is NOTHING left of the male/father mentally, physically, or with my persona and personality. As hard as they try, he's not there. My children and my partner have told me that their mate/dad is dead and they have mourned the loss of him.

But they love Traci deeply not as the person of the past but as a totally new person they are still leaning about. My adult daughter told me, "I don't know this Traci person. And my father is gone forever." Of course this causes all kinds or emotions, sorrow, and we have spent many hours crying together even today when they see anything (picture, story, etc.) of their lost mate/father.

As a woman, I am deeply sadden for them and have hated seeing them grieve over their lost.

But in the end, I can assure you that my brain is totally female.

[Angela Campbell]

btw what's an adjustable wrench??

Its what we use for the metric bolts.....

[PretzelGirl]

I like the way Jorja put it. I am in a position at my job where I am expected to be aggressive with getting to the source of problems and finding solutions. I have a stellar reputation. As it turns out, that assisted me greatly in my transition and I would be damned if I changed. I was worried about being treated differently and marginalized. I had one meeting early on where I had trouble getting my 2 cents in. Was it me or them? Who knows? But I had a job to do and stayed at it and as a result, I am still getting the same treatment and giving them the same performance. I am not less domineering (I will stay away from macho) as I need to take control to get the job done. You can still do it like a lady and not make people think you are anything but a lady. I am a woman that has the same job skills I had before transition. HRT and relaxing my mind and being me didn't change that skill set.


Timing. I get off the site after posting this and find this video. Probably the audio is NSFW.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/11/bitch-in-business-all-about-that-bass-parody-columbia_n_6307910.html

[Kathryn Martin]

It seems to me that after a lifetime of living as a male, and spending so much energy learning how to make others see you that way, it will naturally feel awkward to begin learning how to come across as a woman.

I would strongly disagree with statement. It sound to me too much of a rationalization after the fact. What does coming across as a woman even mean.

[Angela Campbell]

to be perceived as one. you can't just keep doing the things you did to get people to accept you as male. Voice is one very obvious one.

The way you walk, the way you stand or sit can look very much male because of spending a lifetime trying to take up more space or to show dominance in expression. These many times just shout male, but it is easy to do out of habit.

[Kathryn Martin]

Rachel Reaper:


Transition.....is not about putting on a role." Let's think about this too. Are we putting on a role when we spend hours practicing our new voice? How about when we practice our new role-appropriate mannerisms? How about when we adjust our role in society and assume a more subservient place? (that is, not too macho or dominant) Does all of that count as putting on a new role?

Really, why would you do any of that. Do you really think that your ne voice and mannerisms make you a woman? What Frances said is quite correct women don't play roles unless imposed by social constructs. So all you are practicing are social constructs and conventions.

[Angela Campbell]

they don't make you a woman but they help you blend into society.....much like the way you have your hair done......or wear the clothes you wear....you have done a lot of those things yourself.

[ashleymasters]

I really identify with this comment about the brain. For myself I am 27 years old. I geew up in a typical southern Bible Belt setting and had a tenure in the military. So for many years due to the setting I was in I cultivated a strictly male persona that the outside world sees. Now while trying to find my true identity I'm peeling back layers and assessing what's really me and what's been cultivated out of a need to fit in. Being a woman should be based purely on rather or not you truly are a woman but, even if you are a woman who wouldn't want to find exactly how they want to convey that womanhood. Everything from speech and clothing to grooming should reflect not just your gender but your own identity. It's hard to sort through all of the habits we make and see what's natural to us and what we've taken on as a mask for the world to accept.

[DebbieL]

I would like to know why people think that to live as a female means you are living a subservient lifestyle?
In comparison to a typical Alpha Male, I would seem submissive. I have never been aggressive and lash out only when driven into a corner, or protecting my children or subordinates".
I can be very powerful without needing to use force, anger, or aggression.


I feel that some people have been looking at too much porn and not living a real quality life.
I spent 50 years being forced to cross-dress in boy's clothes and act like a boy. I hated it.
The fantasy of having someone aggressively encouraging me to dress can be quite appealing.
On the other hand, I did end up in an abusive relationship with my first wife that was quite unpleasant. I needed therapy to recover.


I do not feel that transitioning to be myself as a female is a step down in any way.
Quite the opposite, I consider it an upgrade. I realize that an alpha male would hate being turned into a woman, but I've wished for it for as long as I can remember.


I am far from subservient but neither am I dominant. If anything I am equal to any living human being on this planet.
I can be either, depending on what is needed for a situation. If leadership is needed, I can provide it. If a leader needs to be empowered, I can empower them.
Even better, especially when I'm working with other women, is that we can empower each other as a team, and everybody wins.

When I'm officially in a management capacity I'll tell my team "I can be your fairy godmother, or I can be the wicked witch of the west, but I'd rather get you what you need to have a good time at the ball - getting what needs to be done done, so don't be afraid to ask.".

As someone with 35 years in 12 step programs, I have learned than a really great leader is directly responsible to those they serve. I need to let my team tell me what they need, and then help them get it.

As a stroke survivor I am quite familiar with the brain plasticity. After the stroke I lost my left side, I had to learn to do everything I had previously done left handed. For me this included eating, writing, and fine motor skills, I also had to learn to walk again, first with a walker and then with a cane. It took 3 months of intense physical therapy, including having my wife "Sergeant Lee" (she really was a Sergeant in the Army at one time), putting me through a second round of exercise in the evening for 2-3 hours. I could feel my brain remapping to sense and control - it often felt like someone was driving a nail through a joint, hurt like hell for 5-10 minutes, but then I would be able to move it and sometimes I could register sensation. Today, only a trained neurologist watching me walk down the stairs would know I'd had a stroke. I do still struggle with simple multiplication and subtraction.

On the other hand, the brain differences that are common between GGs and Trans-women are a product of how testosterone was processed by the embryo during the first 8-12 weeks of pregnancy. in some cases, such as those who were XXy, the embryo may not have generated much testosterone in the first place. In other cases, a mother under stress, taking certain medications, or certain recreational drugs, can "flush out" the testosterone before the embryo has had a chance to process it. In other cases, the embryo has Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS) and even though there is testosterone in the embryonic bloodstream, the body doesn't know what to do with it and pretty much ignores it. Ironically, the penis is the easiest part to make and takes very little Androgen to create. In each case, the condition results in a smaller limbic system, meaning lower levels of aggression. It can also impact skeleton as well as internal organs. In rare cases, there are people who appear male but have female organs such as a uterus. Other symptoms include gender ambiguity, including very small penis, undescended testes, or small testes.

Gender ambiguity occurs in 1 in 100 births, and often require minimal surgical correction. More extreme conditions are more rare.

It may be that as many as 1 in 15 males is transgender to one degree or another. Many of those who are mildly transgender will accept their birth gender, if only to avoid persecution. Of those who remain, there is an unusually high rate of suicide and "accidental deaths". Transgender boys have a substantially higher risk of dying before their 30th birthday compared to the general population.

There may be a higher incidence of transgender males because so many alpha males were killed during WW-1, WW-2, the Korean War, and the Vietnam war. Those who were most aggressive were more likely to be on the first wave attacks in major battles. As a result, the proportion of alpha male genetics to AIS and effeminate male genetics has shifted toward the feminine.

There are some simple indicators of this low T or AIS condition. The simplest is the finger check. Compare the index finger to the ring finger - most alpha males and masculine females have a longer ring finger, most feminine males and females have a longer index finger. Measure in millimeters and compare. In some cases, it's so obvious you can see it without measuring, and it's usually more pronounced on one hand.

The feminines will also have a smaller limbic system. In women, this is better for nursing and raising children. In men, it makes them better negotiators and better at tasks involving artistic skill, patience, or complex thought. In many cultures effeminate men were considered magical, old souls, two spirit, or possessed. In many cultures, effeminate men became shamen, medicine men, wizards, priests, or even midwives.

You can no more change your brain structure than you can change the length of your fingers.

[sarahcsc]

Not gonna hear an argument from me. I'm a gender mutt...I'll acknowledge that again and again, because I never had a clear, unequivocal female identity. It was murky, but apparent enough to others, it seems to earn me some nicknames that were intended to be derisive...

Hi Kim :), How are you doing?

This is such a philosophical thread with so many good points to ponder.

I guess for some folks here, there had always been a clarity about their gender right from birth which is incongruent with their biologically assigned gender. They have innate female mannerism and they are attracted to males. It makes sense that these folks subscribe to an "all-or-nothing" philosophy which goes something like "its either you are, or you aren't". Hence the term transitioning itself is probably redundant because there was nothing to transition, they were born "already there".

But for many others like you (and me as well), the journey has probably been meandering. I lost count of the number of times I have tried defining myself because none of my thoughts, desires, actions or fantasies have pointed unequivocally at a single direction. They have all been mixed which was the source of my internal conflict anyways. Like you, I gauged myself through the eyes of others because that was the closest best thing to do. And when I was growing up, nobody ever suggested that I was any different to any other males, hence it was only natural that I adopted a male gender identity albeit clashing with my thoughts, desires, actions and fantasies.

Murky, that is word.

Nothing is every so terrifying as walking waist deep in a swamp filled with murky waters. An alligator may just pop up behind you without warning.

To be honest, I envy those with such clarity about their gender identity. Because even though we're both trudging through a swamp waist deep in water, their waters seemed crystal clear.

What if we never achieve that clarity, Kim? What if we're doomed to walk our entire lives in murky waters, constantly looking over our shoulders for crocs?

For folks like us, "transitioning" represents not just an effort to become more or look more feminine, it represents our very struggle to attain the clarity that some others were born with. And if it were true that the female gender identity is something that one was born with, and that the "all-or-nothing" philosophy rings true, then some of us will be forever "transitioning" because we will never arrive "there".

I can't subscribe to the "all-or-none" philosophy because I've never lived in such a world. Murkiness is the defining challenge in my life and no amount academic investment into brain morphology, psychological theories and models, genetics or social experimentation, is ever going to make the water less murky. I just have to take it one step at a time, and deal with the croc when it bites. What else can I do?


It seems to me that after a lifetime of living as a male, and spending so much energy learning how to make others see you that way, it will naturally feel awkward to begin learning how to come across as a woman. That is not forcing at all, it is a necessary thing in my eyes. Yes it takes time for it to feel and look natural but all learned things are like that.


Hi Angela :),

After reading many posts here, I gather that some disagree that gender is something a person can "learn" to exhibit. I guess that may or may not be true, but we may all be missing the point.

Its not the fact that gender can be "learned" or "unlearned", but the underlying desire to "learn" or "unlearn" it that matters.

Remember, regardless of whether gender can be learned or unlearned, the vast majority of the population is not concerned with this. Only people like us gather around to talk about this because we must have at some point in our lives either attempted to learn or unlearn certain traits about ourselves. That is probably our shared desire.

I realised I was born with a set of innate masculine behaviour which I am now desperately trying to "unlearn". Sure, lets sit around and talk about how that is impossible, but what do I do with my desire to unlearn? As far as I know, attempting to unlearn my gender, even though only achieves partial success, is still much more rewarding than doing nothing. Sure, I will never achieve what natal females have, but even a 10% resemblance makes me feel a lot better.

I think, at the end of the day, my reality matters.

If being comfortable means having to "learn" or "unlearn" genders, then so be it. :)

Love,
Sarah

[Angela Campbell]

no, I didn't mean to imply that gender can be learned...it cannot. But the way you appear to others can be learned.

"I guess for some folks here, there had always been a clarity about their gender right from birth which is incongruent with their biologically assigned gender. They have innate female mannerism and they are attracted to males."

some like girls too.

[Kathryn Martin]

I realised I was born with a set of innate masculine behaviour which I am now desperately trying to "unlearn".

Do you really believe that you were born with "innate masculine behavior" or that women are born with "innate feminine behavior"? When you hold a newborn in your arms do you observe any kind of behavior of that sort. There is no such thing as innate congenital "gender" behavior. Such behaviors are learned. They are socialized into children based on their reproductive configuration which determines them to be female or male. The attraction of a child to one or the other behavior set does not undo the biological determination into the sexes.

The reality that the vast majority of females behave in one way and the vast majority of males in another is a socialization not a biological trait.

If you have any kind of awareness of the social dynamic around you then you will also see that the females of the species are treated differently from the males. As surely as the cavemen would bonk a woman over the head and drag them back to their tribe, the same set of socialization dynamics happen in today's world except in much more insidious ways. Most of the oppression of women in our society is cast in "gender" based rules. In what you describe Sara, is the learning the rules that have emerged from gender based oppression, that is socially constructed oppression. I will give you one example: in a recent study about workplace evaluation the same traits of being energetic and getting things done were characterized by employers for men positive, a "go getter" and for women as "abrasive". Certain speech behaviors were characterized in men as "leadership" and for women as "she has to watch her tone". Men are privileged in our society. These are not innate traits that come from having XY or XX chromosomes. It is not the anti muellerian hormone that determines how we behave in our life it is the social construct that society has created around the sexually dimorphic nature of the human species.

If you are transsexed the issue is not so much to learn to "behave" like a woman whatever the hell that is anyway, but to break through the social power dynamics that is based on the socially constructed roles society has assigned to us. Read about male privilege and a a good place to start (http://amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/) is here. Most people here will invariably claim that they are not so male privileged. They will insist that their victim status as transsexed persons takes away all privilege. If you take that position though the all you do is colonizing women's spaces and integration into womanhood will not ever happen. Some will be content with that but if you are a woman how can you possibly be content with that.

[sarahcsc]

There is no such thing as innate congenital "gender" behavior. Such behaviors are learned.

"Very early behavioural difference are evident between males and females. When boys and girls are aged between 10 and 18 months were shown faces of infants of the same and other-sex, males looked at faces of males longer and females looked at faces of females longer. This 'like me' or 'not like me' dichotomy is also interpretable in the study in which two male and two female 1-year-old children were placed at the four corners of a room and permitted, one at a time, to crawl to any child. Children more often crawled to a child of the same sex."

Source:

Lewis, M. and Weinraub (1974). Sex or parent x sex of child. In sex differences in behaviour. pp. 165-89. Wiley, New york
Michalson L, Brooks J, and Lewis M (1974). Peers, parents, people. Cited in Lewis M (1975) Early sex differences. Archives of sexual behaviour, 329 - 35.

This shows that children at the age of 10 months old already has a concept of males and females.

"The 1-year-old'd toy preference may also differ, with girls preferring soft toys and dolls and boys preferring transportation toys and robots."

Source:

Fagot B (1974) Sex differences in toddlers' behaviour and parental reaction. Developmental psychology, 10, 554-8.
Maccoby E, Jacklyn C (1980). Sex differences aggression. Child development, 44, 196-200

This shows that children as old as one year old exhibits gender specific behaviours manifested in play.

"When children are aged between 2 and 3 years were observed in a free play setting, boys were more aggressive toward peers and showed a more rough-and-tumble play. When paired in a test play situation with a boy, girls showed more passive behaviour ie. standing or sitting quietly and watching their partner play."

Source:

Jacklyn C, Maccoby E, (1978), Social behaviour at thirty-three months in same-sex and mixed-sex dyads. Child development, 49, 557-69

This shows at the age of 3, boys are already showing more aggressive and dominant behaviour while girls are more passive and submissive.

Remember Kathryn, these are children younger than 3 years old. They have not the cognitive capacities to understand the intricacies of social rules or norms and yet they behave in a predictable fashion according to their gender. A child may mimic the behaviour of their parents but they are more likely to mimic parents of the same sex because they identify with a particular gender from a very young age.

"At 2 year of age, boys believe that boys like to play with cars and help their father... girls like to play with dolls, help mother, and cook dinner. Girl are also seen as more likely to say 'I need help'."

Source:

Kuhn D, Nash S, Brucbern L (1978). Sex role concept of two and three-year olds. Child development, 49, 445-51

This shows that at the age of 2, when children are given a choice to mimic any parent, they chose to mimic parent of the same sex. Parental influence (or social influence) has but a small role to play.

There is overwhelming evidence to suggest a biological underpinning to our behaviours so please reconsider your notion of "There is no such thing as innate congenital "gender" behavior".




And finally Kathryn,

With all due respect, the OP of this thread started the discussion around "brain plasticity", in other words, it is a discussion around the biological underpinnings of one's behaviour. I do not claim that biology is all that matters in behavioural patterns, I claim that it is multifactorial, and this is a discussion around ONE aspect of it.

I am not making excuses for how society has treated women over the centuries but there is another time and place for the discussion of the social underpinnings of our behaviours.

And yes, I do believe I am "BORN" with a set of innate masculine behaviour with a female gender identity.

I shall quote one more article which has been mentioned several times on this forum that I'm sure you are familiar with.

"Group Three (G3) is composed of natal males who identify as female but who act and appear normally male. We can hypothesize that prenatal androgenization was sufficient to allow these individuals to appear and act normally as males but insufficient to establish a firm male gender identity. For these female-identified males, the result is more complicated and insidious sex/gender discontinuity."

Source:

Anne Vitale, Being Gender Dysphoric: A Developmental Review. Gender and Psychoanalysis, An Interdisciplinary Journal, Vol. 6 No. 2, Spring 2001, pp 121-141.http://www.avitale.com/developmentalreview.htm

Love,
Sarah

[Dianne S]

There is no such thing as innate congenital "gender" behavior.

I think anyone with kids will disagree with that. Boys and girls are very different, practically from birth. However, this is just on average; individual children have huge differences in personality and behaviour right from the start.

I don't deny that once we enter this world, there's intense socialization that magnifies and exaggerates the gender differences... but I truly believe there are innate differences.

[noeleena]

Hi,

The ? i will ask then do all little boys go to their father or a male and all little girls go to their Mother or female whos the feed supply coming from a father or Mother , who does that little one boy or girl bond with , MOM of cause ,

And 2 nd and wether you like it or not those of us who are nether boy or girl or both what then . im heading to my feed surply and i dont give a dam who it is so long as i get it , ....... whats my pull . to my MOM bonding feed and >>>LOVE<<< and being safe , funny that safe from what dont have a clue ...yet... i know im safe , i cling to my MOM.

Safe because i was warm secure safe and feed time 24 / 7, now none of that is learned is it NOT one part of it , so do your tests they mean nothing .
What is happening is ....from the womb till ..........

...noeleena...

[kimdl93]

"Group Three (G3) is composed of natal males who identify as female but who act and appear normally male...."

I appreciate Sarah's effort to interject some evidence into the discussion. It's well understood that humans, like other creatures, are born with a set of behaviors. Given the complexity and random factors affecting fetal development, the potential exists for wide diversity in how those characteristics express themselves in gender behavior and identity. There's also some suggestion that environmental factors may trigger some genetic expressions. Perhaps this influence could extend to genes affecting gender behavior and identity, by reinforcing some and retarding others. And of course, one can reasonably assume some of our gender behavior is learned.

Let me put this in personal terms. I recall and my siblings verify that, though I was born as a large baby boy, I exhibited some behaviors that were sufficiently feminine as to be noticed. I recall being encouraged towards male behaviors and discouraged from seemingly feminine behaviors. I learned to present as a male, but something persistently told me I was different. That inclination was suppressed to the extent I could for much of my life. I couldn't say with clarity that I was a girl in a boy's body... I certainly didn't choose to exhibit those early behavioral traits...and couldn't unlearn but suppressed those that were deemed inappropriate.

Did practicing life as a male influence my brain, making that presentation easier over time? Sure. I suppose it's like learning to play a piano...eventually one learns the chords so well that thought is no longer required to play a complex piece. And that learning makes it easier to take on more challenging compositions.

My original question turns this the other way to ask if one might similarly increase the ability to express feminine behavioral traits, even perhaps open up one's receptiveness to further expression of the feminine self through practice. The uncertainty is that I for one cannot confidently distinguish what is being learned anew from what is revealed again after being buried beneath a lifetime of repression.

[Dianne S]

if one might similarly increase the ability to express feminine behavioral traits [...] through practice.

Oh, yes. I believe this is definitely the case. I've been seriously taking transition steps for about 9 months now and I definitely believe my behavior and presentation are changing through practice.


The uncertainty is that I for one cannot confidently distinguish what is being learned anew from what is revealed again after being buried beneath a lifetime of repression.

I don't think anyone can distinguish that. It's like the question: "Nature or nurture?" and the only sensible answer is "Yes." I know that some people do want reassurance that they're exposing inner nature rather than learning something new because otherwise that might make the whole desire to transition a fraud. But I cannot imagine anyone actually going through transition unless they really want it deep down. Otherwise it's all loss and no gain.

[Kathryn Martin]

Sarah, I will check these sources out and will see what peer review says as well as take critical read of these sources.

Diana S, I have four children to female and two male. that children are very different from each other is one thing but not along gender lines in the manner you suggest. Socialization begins at birth. Have you walked along the baby sections of the department stores lately?

[Dianne S]

children are very different from each other is one thing but not along gender lines in the manner you suggest.

OK... I guess we have to agree to disagree because my experience has been a bit different.


Socialization begins at birth. Have you walked along the baby sections of the department stores lately?

No, thank goodness! And I agree with you... it's pretty obvious and disgusting. Even for older kids, if you go to a fast-food restaurant that gives away toys, the "girl toys" are all pretty and pink and family-oriented and the "boy toys" are all exciting machines or noisy cars or aggressive play figures.

But... but... if you give little boys and girls completely gender-neutral toys like building blocks, I think you will see (on average, I emphasize) quite different playing styles. I think we have to walk a fine line between pointing out the disgusting socialization imposed on kids by society and marketers, and not letting boys and girls have their own natural styles and ways of doing things.

[sarahcsc]

Sarah, I will check these sources out and will see what peer review says as well as take critical read of these sources.

Please do, Kathryn. I would love to be proven wrong. After all, I haven't got the time to appraise the hundreds of articles get thrown my way and it would be a great time saver if somebody could do it for me. :)


Socialization begins at birth.

It would be great too, Kathryn, that you could present us with evidence supporting your claim. First, you will need to define "socialization" and second, define "birth". And rather than just presenting evidence that "socialization begins at birth", you need will also need to present evidence to support your claim that "There is no such thing as innate congenital gender behavior". Please don't take this personally but this is just so that we could keep our discussion focused, empirical, and most of all, credible.

Credibility matters.

I have no credibility whatsoever when it comes to parenting because I don't have children. But I am a psychiatric doctor who have seen many children during my career. However, I know that alone doesn't count for much hence I rely on scientific studies. You are welcomed to form an expert opinion based on your 4 children, but it is unlikely to be credible, not to me at least. Which is why I strongly recommend that you back your claims with studies in order to be taken seriously.

Again, I shall reiterate once more, that I am not saying that socialization isn't important in shaping our behaviour, I'm just saying that there is also a biological underpinning to our behaviours besides socialization.

Hmm... aren't we off topic?


There's also some suggestion that environmental factors may trigger some genetic expressions. Perhaps this influence could extend to genes affecting gender behavior and identity, by reinforcing some and retarding others. And of course, one can reasonably assume some of our gender behavior is learned.


Yes Kim! What you are talking about is the exciting field of "epigenetics". It is proven that environmental factors can switch on or off certain gene expressions and we are just beginning to scratch the surface about this. And I believe you are right that gender behaviour can be learned just as long as we are capable of "learning". We can learn how to walk like a woman the way a person learns ballet. It would be akin to being in a perpetual dance. It is hard, but it must be possible.

Ideas like these gives me a dream to strive for. :)

Love,
Sarah

[DebbieL]

This is really turning out to be a wonderful discussion. I especially enjoy some of Sara's postings.

When Kinsey began to explore and interview males, he created 6 degrees of gender preference, with 1 being exclusively heterosexual, and 6 being homosexual.
He also pointed out that in some of his studies he found out that the majority of the population was bisexual, with a slight shift to the heterosexual side, lots of 2s and 3s.

Harry Benjamin proposed a similar scale, and found a similar distribution, with most people being not 1 - totally cisgender, but rather 2s and 3s - on the scale, many had wondered about being a girl, had fantasized about being a girl, and had even dressed up in private, but didn't really have a true desire to change their gender. Those who were truly 1 on the scale were a relatively small minority and those who were truly 6 - "transition or die" types, were also quite rare.

It's quite likely that if you studied very young children, in 1st grade, you would find a bigger distribution toward the center, and further to the left. Boys who like to play with dolls, teddy bears, and color, and girls who like to play with trucks and guns, and like to play ball or wrastle with their older brothers or boys in the neighborhood.

For those who are in the more malliable 2-4 zone, it's relatively easy to pressure them and program them toward the cis-gender direction - at least from a public point of view. In fact, even type 5 and 6 transsexuals can often "live in stealth" for years, or even decades, before reaching the point where they can no longer live the lie. Of course the more transgender or homosexual someone is, the harder it is to force conformity. Peer pressure, violence, bullying, and even terrorism can force a child into hiding their transsexuality or homosexuality, but at the cost of a part of their sanity. The child may look and act like a heterosexual male, but he's also suffering from post-traumatic-stress disorder, paranoia, and may isolate to the point of appearing to be suffering from depression or bipolar disorder, or even being sociopaths. Since they can't be themselves with other people, they tend to avoid other people. This may be why so many transsexuals who seemed to be loners, isolated, and "book-worms" will turn into social butterflies as they transition.

The mistake that we see in attempts to "reprogram" those who are gender or preference variant, is that success may be an illusion. A bisexual man may be approached in the right way by another homosexual or bisexual man and behave as though he were homosexual. Since there is peer pressure within the homosexual community to be gay or not, most bisexuals need to hide their desire for women when in the gay community. The gay community has an ugly nickname for bisexuals - "Ding Dings" after the sound of the ball bouncing around from bumper to bumper in a pinball machine.

A bisexual who has been gay may decide to become "straight", often as a result of peer pressure, family pressure, or meeting an attractive woman who wants them to make the effort to be straight. But in this case, this is just a bisexual who can be attracted to certain members of both genders choosing to make a long-term commitment to a specific partner they are attracted to. It's not a "miracle", nor is it even revolutionary therapy, it's simply giving the bisexual the freedom to change his mind.

Back to the transgender male. A transgender male who is gender fluid may enjoy cross-dressing, and may even enjoy presenting as a pretty girl, but using the threat of divorce, loss of children, loss of job, threats of physical violence may enable someone who is a 2-3 on the scale to give up dressing, but the urge or desire will always be there and will be a desire to be resisted.

On the other hand, a male who is a 5 or 6 on the transgender scale will be very uncomfortable and awkward trying to live and act like a boy. He may be small, bad at sports, or turn to books, or other escapes to avoid the discomfort, the physical and emotional pain of being forced to live and act like a male. To someone that intense, every moment that they present and pretend to be a boy is a lie. They look in the mirror at their short hair, boys clothes, and what appears to be a boy and just think "And the BS starts now". Many boys with this degree of dysphoria won't even look in the mirror, because they hate what they see, especially in a full length mirror. My first wife used to have to pick out my wardrobe because I literally could not see my body in the mirror. As Debbie, I knew what colors went with which, as Rex I didn't care if things matched. I'd wear the lime green shirt with the blue pants and the brown shoes, and not even be aware that I looked like I had dressed blindfolded.

Attempting to force someone with severe gender dysphoria into gender conformity can be dangerous. When religious leaders, parents, or officials try to force conformity, or peers resort to violence and terrorism to try to force a TS to "man up", the results are rarely good. It's almost as traumatic as being raped, repeatedly, and told that we should like it. In some cases we even ARE raped, by people who want us to hate it. The victim of such "programming" can often go into full scale rebellion, turning to booze, drugs, crime, prostitution, and worse. Often, they are so violated by the "programming" that they have total contempt for authority in ANY form. Others direct their anger inward, often in repeated suicide attempts, often without telling anyone for months or years about their attempts. The most extreme cases are literally "Transition or Die" cases, and the intensity of the dysphoria increases with any attempt to get gender conformity.

To fully understand the scope of gender dysphoria, more research needs to be done into suicides, attempted suicides, and those who call suicide help lines. In addition, school counselors should look for kids who are isolating or rebelling, and determine if there are gender dysphoria or preference issues in play. We may find that we can help more of the huge population currently "living in stealth" before they reach the stage where they think transition is not an option and can't communicate their frustration.