Are you trying to out-trans me?

[Promethea]

A few weeks ago I told someone here that non trans CDers didn´t necessarily have to be supportive of trans people. Well, I am living proof that you can be trans and prejudiced.

For the last four months I have been staying in Olinda, a city in northeastern Brazil. It´s a very nice little town where you run into the same people all of the time. In the last couple of months I started running into another trans woman, quite different from me and the way I present. I didn´t feel I had to strike a conversation with her just because we´re both trans, it would be like "Oh, we´re both wearing red, lest be BFFs!". Yet, it is what we do here, isn´t it? But I guess the people that come here are capable of a certain level of discussion of feelings and ideas, and she didn´t look like she could, probably because of the context she grew up in and possibly lack of education (common here, specially if you´re trans, a bit less if you´re gay, homeless teens don´t usually go to school...).

So, last Friday night, like every Friday night I attended the Serenata de Olinda, where a group of musicians sing popular brazilian songs while walking through the historical centre. Before it started I was greeted by one of the singers who I had talked to a few times before. He was sitting in a bench with this other trans woman. They had just met and he wanted to introduce us. It felt forced (and I do suspect he is an "admirer", as he has been kind of creepy towards me, kissing my hand is fine, he´s old fashioned, he does it towards most women, but blowing me kisses as he walks by me is not ok), we said "hi" and nothing else, it didn´t seem we had anything in common. Then someone came in to talk to the singer and the little group split up.

The thing is that I realized I was feeling superior to her. Probably because of her upbringing, she couldn´t get past "Ms. Male Character" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYqYLfm1rWA) type of female presentation (video which quite reflects what I feel about some things said on the "not feminine enough" thread), and ended up looking like Terence Hill in drag (while I, on the other hand, look more like Bud Spencer in drag), and I somehow felt she was being trans "wrong" because she looked like a prostitute.

I have said before I don´t care to hide that I am trans, but I do care for my presentation, I do pick my clothes and accessories carefully, according to the sense of style that I developed over a life with certain privileges and that was influenced by intelligent women. The look on her face when she said hi to me read full of despise, as if my presentation was making her feel superior and if I was the one being trans "wrong" because I didn´t look sexy or something.

I´m sorry, I do feel a bit like crap for being unfair to her, and rereading what I wrote I see that I still haven´t completely gotten past that feeling of superiority, so I had to share this to get it out of my system.

[kimdl93]

Well, I think it's honorable and healthy to acknowledge ones biases. It could be that each was judging the other somewhat unfairly, but I might suggest it was a product of not knowing each other. Conversation can be very humanizing. Of course we may differ from one another in cultural and educational backgrounds, but people are people once you get past that. Maybe someday the two of you will have a chance to really talk and discover unseen commonalities.

[AllieSF]

So, did you talk with her? It sounds like you brushed her off again, but maybe I am reading your thread wrong. My approach in a situation like that would be to take the first step to initiate a friendly conversation. My reasons for doing that depend on the situation, but include my natural curiosity, empathy, interest in others and my additional interest if they may be interested in similar things that I am. I am also very friendly and enjoy and sometimes need added human interaction.

I am probably similar to many people who first see the book's cover and form an initial opinion as to what may be inside. However, I love to test that by actually getting into conversations (reading the book) when possible, regardless of their position in life and society. I also am a person who does not like to give others the cold shoulder when up close or introduced. If I am not interested in someone for whatever reason, I just avoid them when possible later. When not possible, I will give them all due respect and be pleasant with them. By being that way, I have many times shattered and completely revised my original visual opinion of someone and taught myself that everyone deserves a fair chance and I should be nice to all of them until they personally give me justifiable reasons to do otherwise.

So, in this Brazilian TS's situation, maybe she is a very nice person feeling alone in Olinda with no friends nor friendly acquaintances. Maybe she needed or wanted to meet a friendly sister. I do not know the whole story because that is probably much more involved and detailed than one could easily write here on this Forum. I applaud your self evaluation. Maybe it would help to be more friendly the next time you see her and just see what happens. We do not have to like everyone we meet, but we should give them all a chance, don't you think?

Thanks for sharing. I have never been to Olinda, but have lived many many years ago for almost 3 years in a large interior city in the State of Sao Paulo. I also went back to Brazil many times on business giving me the opportunity to travel to several interesting parts of that great country. I love the country and the people, and speak the language. Enjoy your stay there.

[Dawn cd]

Sounds like you're feeling guilty. Get over it. You were perfectly civil. Next time you see her, perhaps you can chat. But you are not required to be her intimate friend.

[Michelle789]

Promethea,

Outdoing each other as who is more trans is clearly leftover male competitive behavior. It can take many forms.

Transwoman tries to out do other transwomen by dressing sexier
Transwoman tries to out do other transwomen by being more passable - and that often means more plain and simple
Transwoman brags about how sexy she is
Transwoman brags about how pretty she is
Transwoman brags about how passable she is
Passable transwoman avoids being seen with non-passable transwoman out of fear of being clocked
Passable transwoman puts down non-passable transwoman to make herself feel better
Non-passable transwoman gets argumentative with passable transwoman because she is jealous
Older transwoman thinks she is the most trans because she went through all the surgeries and all the hard knocks of transition
Younger transwoman thinks she is the most trans because she started hormones at a younger age and passes better
Transwoman believes she is more trans because she had the worst symptoms of gender dysphoria
Transwoman believes she is more trans because she lost the most amount of friends, family, job, money, spouse
Transwoman believes she is more trans because she lost the least amount of friends, family, job, money, spouse
Transwoman believes she is more trans because lots of men hit on her
Transwoman believes she is more trans because she can't pass at all and gets clocked the most
Transwoman believes she is more trans because she passes so well that she can go stealth
Transwoman brags or complains about her hard luck and believes she is the most trans because of her hard luck
Transwoman brags "I knew since I was 5" so I am trannier than everyone else
Transwoman believes because she announced to her parents that she was a girl at age 5, therefore she is the tranniest of them all
Transwoman believes she was blessed with the genetic lottery and passes simply by wearing a wig, and is therefore more trans than everyone else

And it can take on many more forms, ad infinitum. You are not inferior because you chose not to dress "sexy" and you tried your best to pass, nor are you superior because you passed better than her. I prefer a professional and traditionally feminine look myself. Some of us may chose to dress sexy or like we're going to the club, and some of us prefer jeans and sneakers. I have had a few people in the trans community that dress more casually or more sexy than me try to put me down, but I am perfectly content with my professional/traditional feminine look. All this bickering about who is more trans is totally nonsense and will get us nowhere. Your transition is about you, living your life, so that you can feel free and whole with yourself. You are entitled to wear a style of clothing that you feel suits you best, and so is everyone else. No one is superior, and you have a right to be yourself whether passing is your goal or not.

[arbon]

I disagree it is a left over male behavior. Women can be quite judgmental and vicious with each other.
It all sounds pretty normal to me. At least you are aware of it, and make an effort to correct it about yourself. Thats good.

[becky77]

Interesting video.

She is a stranger why do you need to connect?
If you was a woman and she was a woman you would do as you did. If someone is dressing inappropriately why would you want to associate? Just because she is trans isn't a reason to have to get to know each other.
I don't see the problem, women judge each other all the time. If a woman is spitting and shouting foul language at people am I duty bound to befriend her just because she is trans, no. Am I judging her? Of course, that's human nature.

In essence we stick to people similar to ourselves, that's personality usually. Two TS might share a similar internal struggle but absolutely nothing else. People can't see the woods for the trees sometimes, don't berate yourself for being normal. Someone that goes out of there way to befriend a random Trans person (just because they are Trans) isn't normal.

[Angela Campbell]

I tend to avoid the really flashy ones too. Not because I feel superior, but because they tend to draw attention and I really don't want attention.

[celeste26]

More than anything it just goes to prove you're both human beings with everything that comes with that condition. Take the trans out of the story and it would not be unusual at all. I also shows that empathy for our fellow human beings is something we all need more of.

[RachelReaper]

Michelle, great list! I am annoyed with the people that seem to fit some of the items on that list. They seem inherently arrogant or seem to have a need to boost their self-esteem while setting themselves up to win the trans contest. I have witnessed this behavior in others; however, I must admit that in many cases my reaction to their comments might be a reflection of my own feelings about myself, rather than their trannier than thou attitude. In many cases, trans people are just super happy and proud of all they have accomplished or overcome and they are not trying to find a place on that list or put me down. My feelings of inferiority are of my own making.

[Promethea]

So, did you talk with her? It sounds like you brushed her off again, but maybe I am reading your thread wrong.


It was more like she brushed me off and I made nothing to avoid it. As the singer called me in she looked away uncomfortably (she may have been doing that before, I don´t know if she was enjoying his conversation, as I said he can go from nice to creepy), she only looked at me when she couldn´t avoid saying "hi", and then looked away again. Then the singer and I exchanged a few more words without her participating or listening, until someone got in between the singer and me and I took that as my cue to walk away. And I hadn´t brushed her off before. The previous times I saw her I just didn´t change the direction that I was walking just to start a conversation with her. This was the first time we were this close.


My approach in a situation like that would be to take the first step to initiate a friendly conversation. My reasons for doing that depend on the situation, but include my natural curiosity, empathy, interest in others and my additional interest if they may be interested in similar things that I am. I am also very friendly and enjoy and sometimes need added human interaction.


I couldn´t live the way I do (out of a backpack, traveling alone to place where I usually don´t know anybody before I get there) if I wasn´t like that too. I have gotten some pretty big surprises from people that had something about them that I didn´t expect when first meeting them, but this was the first time I was in a situation "just like that", and it felt unnatural.


So, in this Brazilian TS's situation, maybe she is a very nice person feeling alone in Olinda with no friends nor friendly acquaintances. Maybe she needed or wanted to meet a friendly sister.


Maybe she is, and maybe she does need a TS sister, but she didn´t seem like she wanted one.


You are not inferior because you chose not to dress "sexy" and you tried your best to pass, nor are you superior because you passed better than her. (...) All this bickering about who is more trans is totally nonsense and will get us nowhere. Your transition is about you, living your life, so that you can feel free and whole with yourself. You are entitled to wear a style of clothing that you feel suits you best, and so is everyone else. No one is superior, and you have a right to be yourself whether passing is your goal or not.

Oh, believe me, I´m well aware of that. But knowing and feeling are different things, and one does not control the other. The thread title is what I felt was going on through both our heads at that time. That´s why I´m here beating myself over the whole thing.



She is a stranger why do you need to connect?
If you was a woman and she was a woman you would do as you did. If someone is dressing inappropriately why would you want to associate? Just because she is trans isn't a reason to have to get to know each other.
I don't see the problem, women judge each other all the time. If a woman is spitting and shouting foul language at people am I duty bound to befriend her just because she is trans, no. Am I judging her? Of course, that's human nature.

In essence we stick to people similar to ourselves, that's personality usually. Two TS might share a similar internal struggle but absolutely nothing else. People can't see the woods for the trees sometimes, don't berate yourself for being normal. Someone that goes out of there way to befriend a random Trans person (just because they are Trans) isn't normal.

Thank you, Becky. You´re helping me feel a bit better.

[Annaliese]

It sound like you both had your walls up, and neither took the time to get to know each other, a shame for both of you, I have done the same had a disagreement with my neighbor and for 5 years we never talked, then one day there daughter came running around the fence, and there I was, she drop dead in her track. The fear in her eye that she was on my property I never want to see again, she is the same age as my grandchildren. The next day I made a point of apologizing to my neighbor and his family. We have become great friend, don't miss out on opportunity, we could have been good friend for 6 years in steed of 5. The father and mother know about me know and it does not matter to them. You never know until you try what will happen.