Advice is good . . . but please choose your words wisely

[Marcelle]

Hi all,

I really don't count this as another Isha rant more so a observation based on some responses to a post from a GG looking for advice about a CDer whom she was chatting online with and who happens to be married. I was going to respond to the OP but unfortunately I believe she has left the group and will most likely not return.

Responses were mixed ranging from some benign comments ("I would find out more about him" . . . "Tread carefully) to comments which provided balance (Can you see yourself being his friend for awhile to see where it goes) to comments which IMHO were hastily and poorly worded based on a belief that marriages regardless of the situation must be protected at all costs. The fact that she was a GG seemed to automatically imply he wanted to cheat on his wife. Yet I read nothing in the post which implies he wants to cheat . . . no invites to come and meet him at some secluded rendezvous noted. However people got fixated on his giving her gifts and her reciprocating with like gifts (undies) as a sign of infidelity. Was there plans for more? I don't know. Was he married? Yes, but remember it is a weird old world out there and we don't always marry our soul mate first time out the gate. We knew nothing about this CDer's relationship other than it was DADT. It could be the CDer may be in a DADT relationship which is completely void of love and/or emotional support and the sole reason for staying together is "familiarity and consistency". Perhaps his wife knows he has online chats with other women about his CDing and has no issues with it so long as she does not have to hear about it (DADT). Expecting someone to stay in a relationship they are not happy with because they are married and have a family . . . well kind of seems 1950s to me. Yet many immediately vilified the CDer, who I would like to point out may be a member or lurker on this site, with hastily worded quips such as . . .

Don't forget the cheating on his wife (or the plan to cheat)
For him and his family, please, step away.
sneaking around on your family to satisfy your "needs" is quite cowardly
family and a marital commitment comes
Technically it is cheating unless he has told his wife he talking on line with a woman
Anything that you feel you need to keep secret from you spouse or family . . . I believe constitutes cheating
stepping in and disturbing the "nest" may not be a good idea
I don't want to see you, and your interest, on the CHEATERS tv show
Your decisions now will DRASTICALLY impact 2015 for many people

. . . Now I am sure the intent was noble in trying to convince the OP that perhaps the CDer's intentions are not that above board. However, words will be interpreted by the receiver and it will not always match the sender's intent. In this case, I am certain the young woman took the meaning of he (the CDer) is dishonest and a cheater ergo you (the OP) are complicit in fostering this dishonest cheating behavior so stop it now before his wife and family gets hurt. Before anyone says "you have no proof she took it that way" . . . read her replies as that is exactly how she took it. There is nothing wrong with advice, it is a good thing but it has to achieve balance. In these instances IMHO there was no concern for the feelings of the OP or the CDer just a lot of "he is a bad person", a person I might add she felt strongly about and by labeling that person bad well I guess that makes her bad. However it is probably a moot point as I am sure we have driven this young woman away from the site which is a shame because now we have one more person in the world who will most likely have preconceived notions about us as a community.

When dispensing advice I prefer to look at things from both sides of the coin not just the one side. So try this exercise . . .

We all know that this life we have chosen can be very lonely for some of us which is evidenced by the plethora of "Why can't I find an SO?" posts. So let's reverse the tables and you are a single CDer with no ties who is online innocently chatting with people and run across a younger woman who gets you on an emotional level. She sees beyond the dressing, the presentation and down to the soul of the person. You continue your conversation online for months and the emotional support is wonderful. She sends you gifts of make-up, undies and you reciprocate. During the course of your conversation you find out she is married with two grown children. Her husband and her sleep in separate rooms, she indicated that on some level she loves her husband but he provides her with little emotional support and there has been no intimacy for years. Added to the mix she admits that she is developing a strong bond to you and believes you are her soul mate, the one she was destined to be with. You are confused . . . do you continue your relationship or do you break it off? Now remember she is willing to accept you for who you are and if that means you spend 24 hours a day en femme she is fine with it. In essence you have found the "Holy Grail" of supportive SOs who just happens to be married but does not seem happy. How do you counsel yourself with regards to this conundrum Please be honest in your response.

My overriding point is . . . there is nothing wrong with providing advice based on past experience but the manner in which one wishes to express that advice needs to be chosen carefully as words have many meanings and strong language like "cheater" "dishonest" can be interpreted the wrong way and turned in on the receiver in a way not intended by the sender. As I said in an earlier response to that post, the saying "the pen is mightier than the sword" rings true in that words (even good intentioned ones) can do more damage to the soul than a sword.


Hugs

Isha

[kimdl93]

I understand your viewpoint, but do not in this case agree. The person you're speaking of May indeed have left with her feelings hurt by the critical words she read, mine included. Frankly, given the facts as she presented them, I feel the majority response was merited.

Sure some might have made the point more gently. Still, sometimes it's better just getting hard truths straight up.

[Carole]

Nicely and succinctly put Isha, I couldn't agree with you more.

Like you I almost responded to the lady in question, but withheld my comments having read some of the ' advice ' being given here. The DADT aspect was only her take on the situation, the CD'er may well have had an understanding SO we will never know, we possibly know only what the OP was told. It is a shame that the poster seems to have left the forum, I'm sure we could have offered better advice to her given time.

[JocelynJames]

I find when someone is asking advice here I generally steer clear. I'm no saint and in no position to judge. Just my 2 ¢

[Marcelle]

Kim,

I agree fundamentally that sometimes people need a dose of reality and if this was such a case then so be it. However, my point was not "you were wrong to do so" my point was the truth can be couched in terms which preserve the dignity of the recipient. I have spent my life in the military have been on the receiving end of "hard truth comments" the ones that resonate are the one's that preserve my dignity not admonish me as a bad person.

Hugs

Isha

[flatlander_48]

As always, we have to realize that HOW You Say It is significant. You can easily get to a point where people stop listening (if speaking) or stop attempting to understand (if reading) and anything that comes after that will be lost. This has nothing to do with agreement. You just always want to maintain a situation where the information will be absorbed.

[Maria 60]

That is so true. The first time I joined here I was shocked to read that some wife's were not supportive, only because when I told mine she was supportive, but to the level we both can live with. So the first few times I was reading,"should I tell my wife". I was still shy here and didn't respond but if I did I more then likely would have said, "go for it I did, we found a happy medium and now we are both happy". Lucky I didn't because after reading a little later he took the same advice from someone else to the same regard and his wife wasn't so accepting and now his marriage was in bad condition. I learned very quickly to watch what I wright, and believe yes we are all in the same boat, but we are all in different waters. At the beginning I would vent here a lot and the advice would be something like "just tell the kids" ,"go out fully dressed it will be OK". Now when I read that the wife isn't accepting or she left me, my first question to myself is how was the relationship before, or before I make a statement make sure I state," this is what happened to me, but may not go that way for you etc." You are right, how can someone give you advice if they don't know you, but we are not therapist but we do have life experience on the subject. It's very easy to tell someone that his wife is a b. because she won't let him dress, and maybe for all we know it isn't even the real case. I believe you are making a great point and maybe in the future we should be more careful of how we word things, that we can make or break lives. Thanks

[GeauxStacy]

Isha - Great points all around. I read that post and almost jumped into the fray, but I remembered an old southern saying, "No matter how flat the pancake is, there are always two sides." I shy away from giving advice until I know both sides. Plus, any advice would be biased to your own experiences. I am all for giving an opinion but I also give the statement of "this may not work for you, but" before I do. And to answer what I would do in your exercise - as much as I would love to find out the person I was getting close to loved me and Stacy, I would walk away when I found out she was married because I have been cheated on before and cannot do that to someone else.

[Nyla F]

Thank you Isha, well put.

When writing a post we should imagine we are in a room of strangers talking face to face with the person who started the thread (they are trying to start a friendly conversation in this crowded room). in this situation one would take care not to offend the OP or say things that made them angry, defensive, or embarrassed. We would want to make a scene in public. We might also take care not to jump to conclusions or else we make ourselves look bad.

Sometimes these conversations are about sensitive personal issues. At these times in particular we are aware of how how vulnerable the OP is and how we must exercise even more care in our responses. When some is expressing pain, it might not be the time for harsh criticism or "reality checks". Consider whether or not our response will be helpful to the other person. Is our response worded in a way that they might be receptive to the message, to consider another point of view.

Nyla

[flatlander_48]

It is never a good situation to position ourselves in such a way as to be the scapegoat if things go wrong. It's the "Well, you told me to do it." syndrome.

A better approach is to talk about the things to be considered. It is "Look at this; Think about that." without giving instructions. People will come to their own conclusions, good or bad, but it should be their conclusions and not ours.

[Krisi]

I think any advice found on an Internet forum should be taken with a very large grain of salt. We can see on this forum where advice and opinions are often as far apart as possible. People here come from all over the English speaking world, range in age from teenagers to seniors, range from destitute to wealthy and from straight to openly gay. Some have lived sheltered lives, some have lived in the street.

I would never run off and do something just because a stranger on the Internet told me to do it. I would read all the replies and then think for myself what, if any, is the best advice.

As for how one posts advice or answers, again, we are all different. Some folks will beat around the bush trying not to offend while others just tell it like it is.

[mykell]

it is true in many threads here that tact must be used in our responses, but reality is you must take the information from where it is received from also, this is not a professional venue.

the thread your referring to was rife with innuendo.....for whatever reason......and i believe the responses were offered in that context, i dont believe that they felt the responses were as volatile as some perceived them for that reason.....

"guilt, alluring, craved," "may not go anywhere", "something he may not have ever done" ..... suggestive lines....potential for a relationship....

none really answered the DADT separate bed issue as it was based on very narrow parameters.

i hope the member will stick around and contribute to the site in the future as they are accepting whether in a relationship with a CDer or not, possibly hard if they find a partner who is not a CD, but it would be nice....

[Nadya]

Once again we have to remember to internet responsibly. I understand that a situation can strike a personal cord with us and that it's easy to react passionately but we can forget that not all situations are black and white and they should not be treated as such. Thanks for giving us that little reminder that we are all here looking for support even if it's something we don't necessarily agree with.

[Jenniferathome]

I don't agree with you on this Isha.

We were told a very limited set of information from the poster. It looked like cheating or soon to be cheating to me, so I called it that way. I see no harm in calling a spade a spade. Her story was a crock. I think her valuable time was saved with an honest assessment of what such a relationship looks like from he outside. By the way, it was overwhelmingly negative.

If you don't want an honest opinion, don't ask for one.

[Alice Torn]

I agree with your point to an extent. Like Joe Friday, get just the facts. And not crush a person, unless they are truly evil. I know. I was bullied many years, still am by by older brothers. I guess religious teaching influenced my posts, as well as experience. I have always believed, that getting emotionally involved with any married person, is wading into deep waters, and we should , like Barney Fife says, "nip it in the bud", before it gets out of hand. Platonic friendship is fine. I know i have been blasted a few times on this forum, and i almost left for good, but later, realized there was some truth to what the critical posts said.

[Claire Cook]

Isha,

I'm glad you called a brief time out here. To follow up Ryce's thought on the Internet, we have this sort of instant response - instant gratification syndrome, and when we have limited time at our computers, and have an impulsive reaction to a post, it's all to easy too fire off a post that can have unintended emotional or subliminal meaning. And some of us probably have thinner skins than others, and may react to a post in ways that a sender might not really want.

So yes, we should be careful in how we word our responses, particularly in dealing with personal issues. After, we're here to support one another, and even when we are being critical, we should do so in a constructive, helpful way. Sometimes a carefully thought out and worded PM can be more useful to someone than a post that elicits a range of emotional responses.

[Georgina]

I tend to agree with you and another thing I notice, is that, responders often don't fully understand the question or don't read it properly.

[Marcelle]

I don't agree with you on this Isha.

. . . It looked like cheating or soon to be cheating to me, so I called it that way. I see no harm in calling a spade a spade . . . If you don't want an honest opinion, don't ask for one.

Jenn,

I am a bit confused as I reread the OP and I don't see anything but two people talking via internet about their feelings . . . I don't see that as cheating in any form or function. If that were the case then anyone here who is in a DADT relationship and is on this forum (without their SO knowing) carrying on conversations about their feelings, what it means to be TG/CD/TS or whatever all in an effort to garner some emotional support or, perhaps arranging to meet others for mutual support . . . are by your definition cheating on their wives? :confused: Or is it different because we are dudes? Is it not possible that the individual is just looking for emotional support which he is not getting at home? Or is it because he is a guy, she is a woman and he is married that the deduction is cheating or soon to be?

You are correct if you don't want an honest opinion, don't ask for one. However it does not mean you have to be blunt to the point of being harsh to make your point. You may have a thick skin but not everyone is built the same and some people can get hurt quite easily. Advice, opinions and so forth can come from a place of understanding unless a person's intent is to be unnecessarily mean that is.

Isha

[Jean 103]

First I tend not to give advice of a personal nature, especially to a poster with a low count. Weather professional or not, from a book or life, it is still just that person’s option. I would not advice someone to follow my messed up path. There are decisions you make and there is the luck of the draw. You take risks you have to live with the consequences be they good or bad. I believe I read the post your referring to, to give someone advice that gives permission to, lie, cheat, deceive or take part in braking up a marriage is not good advice. It’s just my option.

Isha my wife did find, read, and see my posts as cheating

[Jenniferathome]

Jenn,

I am a bit confused as I reread the OP and I don't see anything but two people talking via internet about their feelings . . . I don't see that as cheating in any form or function. If that were the case then anyone here who is in a DADT relationship and is on this forum (without their SO knowing) carrying on conversations about their feelings, ...

Isha, that's just naive. We share OPINIONS on this forum. The woman in question was NOT just sharing opinions over the internet. She was in a weird relationship over the internet, for sure, but was clearly asking for permission to get more serious with a married man. It's a joke to think that this woman just wants to be friends with this married man.

[Krisi]

I think lots of times people get on the Internet to "ask permission" to do things that deep down inside they know they shouldn't be doing.

[Katey888]

This is debating advice on a generic level and doesn't really fulfil an MtF issue as such, but I'm leaving it for educational purposes... not that many closed threads get re-read.

Isha (and those who agree with the OP): I can see your point about observations on the style of responses but this is a web forum that embraces all sorts of opinions, people, cultural backgrounds, beliefs, values, experiences, etc. Everyone has a right to expressing their view the way they want as long as it falls within the rules (which already should provide adequate safeguards for posters)

Kim (and those who agree with the contrary view): You also make a valid point that folk here will sometimes represent the way they see things bluntly and real world - that is the nature of posting your issues publicly and inviting comment: you have to be prepared to take the rough with the smooth.

I would again remind ALL members that if they feel the rules have been breached with respect to any personal attacks (which does not include just being blunt or contrary with their opinions) they have the opportunity to report any overt flaming using the 'Report Post' feature (bottom left of ALL posts). In this case I don't believe the thread in question has seen anyone overstep a mark but if anyone feels differently they can report it and it will be dealt with by Moderators or Admin.

All members have a right to their opinions and style of response - All OP posters have a choice as to whether they read or take heed of any advice that is freely given.

This debate now closed.

Katey
Moderator