1st person vs. 3rd person self-references

[Karen62]

Since I have been coming to and enjoying the comments on this forum, I was immediately struck by the pervasive use of 3rd person references to the authors’ feminine alter egos when being self-referential. I find it reminiscent of the old US Senator Bob Dole’s continual references in his speeches to himself as “Bob Dole” (which was the butt of many jokes when he ran for US President) rather than using a first person singular pronoun (me or I ). I recently read another CD blogger who expressed deep frustration and disappointment with her siblings. She had come out to them, but they had not seen her while she was dressed en femme. She had invited them over to her house just before Christmas for a glass of wine so they could “meet Hannah” (her words - I love her blog: http://hannahgotta.wordpress.com/), and she was heartbroken that no one showed up.

I wanted to write her (but didn’t) to suggest that using the notion of “meeting Hannah” to people not comfortable with this world in which we live might seem to be off-putting. After all, they were not actually invited to meet Hannah, they were invited to finally see their sibling in her true, expressed form. The implication of “meeting” some other person could be interpreted as a charade, a donned costume, a character played as a lark (if we step into the shoes of people hearing this idea, I think this response is a genuine possibility). Of course it wasn’t any of that, but the way the invitation was conveyed might have been seen as having a level of artificiality to it. Maybe.

When I joined here, I had to pick a screen name. I had never had one before, and had never thought of myself that way. I was always just me when I dressed (I suppose there are implications to that fact for me, but that’s for another thread). Now I’ve never gone out en femme (other than underdressed, but I am even less like to pass than a Yugo! …bad joke), so I’ve never needed a persona/alternate identity. I understand how it fits a genuine need for others here, and there’s no criticism or judgment in this at all. At times, however, I still find it being presented as more of a mask rather than an extension of self. That may be more related to the author’s use of written language, but it often seems to me to be a hard split of identities. I am just me, in drab or drag. And I definitely acknowledge I am also a rookie here, so perhaps I know nothing about this. (Please flame kindly!)

I’m just curious about what the girls here think about the concept of not saying me or I and instead using a third-party femme name when in fact they are being self-referential. Is this identity split indicative of some emotional walls dividing up a personality, or is it just a meaningless manner of speaking?

[AllieSF]

We have had threads on this before and there is a good Seinfeld episode about Jimmy who always refers to himself in the third person (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Apa0nG1OfUc). When overdone, I understand what you are saying and sometime laugh to myself about it. However, for many of us here we are dealing with two different identities. These are identities referencing how we are dressed and presenting ourselves and, for me anyway, not two different persona's. I am always the same person. I am TG/CD and may talk about something I did in male mode as Al and other things that I may do en femme as Allie. Saying occasionally that Allie did that is a lot easier to type and say instead of cluttering up a good posts with too many explanatory words. So, if it is used once in a while then I recommend that you learn to live with it, and if used too much, stop reading that post. Good luck and I hope you find more things that make you happy here than make you upset.

[mykell]

hi karen,
when i joined i needed a user name, the protocal seemed to be use a girl name and i made mine up, not as original as i had thought as its come up time to time,
i may have used it in the third person but did not realize if i had when done. so i will say meaningless.

i am upset to hear what happened to hanna, she is a member here, sad that her brothers or sisters did not show up for the wine invitation, especially around the holidays when family is forefront in the get togethers, hope she is feeling o k.....

[Samantha_Smile]

I only go third person when it is required.
And the only real reason for this is when discussing the differences between Samantha and [IRL Name].
That's how I see it anyway.

Otherwise it just kinda makes me think
"The Rock doesn't give a damn what you think! IF YA SMEEEEEEELLLL...what the Rock...... Is cookin' "
:heehee:

[Nikki A.]

I don't think of it as a third person reference. Either way I'm still me. I do use Nikki as a differentiation from my drab side in writing about me and what I have done.

[Jenn A116]

My wife and I use the third person when out and wanting to comment about something that Jennifer would be interested in. This usually happens when we are out shopping for stuff for her (wife) and one of us sees something that might be of interest to Jennifer.

Sometimes we will also refer to "Jennifer's People" when discussing other CD's. For example, "That could be one of Jennifer's People".

[Kate Simmons]

Hey, I figure if Dr. Doom can talk in the third person, so can I. :heehee::battingeyelashes::)

[Eryn]

For us it's just a convenient way of defining which presentation we are discussing. I don't consider myself to be two people, but using my two names is easier than stumbling about with other methods of distinguishing between my presentations. It's also a nice stealthy way to put things when people Who Are Not In The Know are around.

[victoria76]

I really like having a name for this part of me! I never really gave it much thought until joining this site, but Victoria is here to stay! :)

[bridget thronton]

I do not talk about myself in the third person unless I am describing something going on with one of my SL avatars. I like being called Bridget and respond to that name however I am dressed.

[Rachelakld]

Depends on which personality is currently driving my skin bag, currently Rachel is 3rd person, not because of how I'm dressed, but Rachel is away for a bit and may be back once my chores are done.

[junetv]

June is often guilty of this :)

[Nikkilovesdresses]

I’m just curious about what the girls here think... Is this identity split indicative of some emotional walls dividing up a personality, or is it just a meaningless manner of speaking?

Ah, but you refer to us as girls when you know very well that we're not girls, so isn't that similar to 3rd-person refs? Ie it isn't factually accurate, but it serves a purpose.

Your final sentence is something I've wondered about, from the POV of refs to 'girls'. I don't need to refer to myself as a girl, yet I love dressing up as a girl- I'm happy to think of myself as a man and it doesn't downgrade my enjoyment of the CD experience. I don't think the refs are 'a meaningless manner of speaking', clearly it's extremely important to many here to think of themselves as girls. It's like denial of masculinity, denial of self; non-self acceptance- and how can that be good? Isn't it the flipside of denial of the female side, denial of letting the 'girl' out?

So there it is- I'm a man, a man who loves dressing in women's clothes, a man who loves pretending to be a girl.

Here's a question in return: why do I use the word man, but then the word girl? Why are there constant refs here to being a girl, but very few to being a woman, other than among the transsexuals? I suspect there's a lot of significance to that, but perhaps you'd like to speculate?

[Marcelle]

Hi Karen,

I am with Allie and others on this one. I don't see myself as separate entities (boy/girl me) but a combination of the two wrapped up in the same body. However the external presentation changes depending on, as Rachel so aptly put "who is driving the skin bag" :heehee: So, when I am discussing Isha in the third person it is just to differentiate between presentations. It is easier to say "so I was out as Isha today" vice "so today I decided that I would put on women's clothing, don make-up and go out" to ensure everyone knows which presentation I talking about. I find it similar to the use of "en femme" vice "drab".

Hugs

Isha

[Claire Cook]

Niki, Jenna and Eryn have covered this for me. I am Claire and Claire is me. However ... it is interesting that sometimes my wife will say something like "Claire wouldn't think that way" with the implication that I should think like Claire more often. So I'm trying to be the whole me. Maybe thinking like Claire all of the time should be a New Year's resolution?

[Teresa]

Karen,
Like you I never had a female name before joining the forum and chose a femme version of my male name, it was easier to get use to and feels more acceptable !
I think the change from 1st to 3rd person depends on the depth of the subject, I tend to use "I" when making an important point but speak more in the 3rd person when the subject is lighter and more flippant !

[heather ann martin]

"A meaningless manner of speaking"! You really should get out more!

[Ressie]

Ressie doesn't speak that way and I found it rather strange at first to see some members referring to their fem side in 3rd person speech constantly. I'm kind of used to it now and realize some prefer to speak of their fem self in the 3rd person. What would 'jimmy' or 'Bob Dole' say if they were CDs? It seems to be a bit ego driven for Jimmy and Bob Dole to refer to themselves this way. Maybe it's alter ego driven for CDs?

[Krisi]

This forum is the only place I talk about "Krisi". I don't say "Krisi" did this or "Krisi" did that but it's often easier to say I spent time as Krisi than to say I spent time dressed as a woman.

I never thought about it.

[kimdl93]

I am he as you are he and you are me and we are all together. Or to put it another way, I don't use the third person because I do t have an alternate identity...I am she as you are she as we are she...

[Isabella Ross]

I think Eryn hit the nail on the head with her post above.
For us it's just a convenient way of defining which presentation we are discussing. I don't consider myself to be two people, but using my two names is easier than stumbling about with other methods of distinguishing between my presentations. It's also a nice stealthy way to put things when people Who Are Not In The Know are around.

[Genifer Teal]

I've done that, depending on the situation. Never thought about it separating my personalities. Just became a convenient way to mention something descretely in front of people that didn't know, while some did. Some could possibly be taking it as you suggest. Fortunately my friends all know the real me. I will be more careful around those that don't know me yet.

[Katey888]

Same with me Karen - it's just a literary device to indicate doing something en femme... I don't have an alter ego, but I do have a different presentation facet. Some folks here will say that they experience a 'shift' in persona and I think that's valid and true; same as those who do truly feel they are one person and that person is female...

Just demonstrates again to me what a diverse bunch we are and why we're so difficult to categorise... :)

Katey x (Ha ha ha! Or K---- if you prefer, but it's all the same really.. ;))

[Judith96a]

I'm another one who uses the third person reference, i.e. "Judith/Judy" v "him" to indicate which presentation I'm using at any given time. It's a shorthand if you will.

[Karen62]

It is easier to say "so I was out as Isha today" vice "so today I decided that I would put on women's clothing, don make-up and go out" to ensure everyone knows which presentation I talking about.

Ah, yes, Isha, this is it! When you write "I was out as Isha today", that is in 1st person because you said "I". But I've seen many instances of authors' writing something akin to "Isha was out today" -- that is the 3rd person reference that reminds me of the Bob Dole speaking about "Bob Dole likes this" when he could have said "I like this".

Please note I am not complaining in any way, shape or form; just observing and absorbing. I am just curious to learn if this use of language was intentional or just a literary device, as Katey said. Frankly, I am just dipping my little nylon-covered toe into these waters and I want to know what the community traditions are, and being a geek at heart, why they exist. I did use the word girls, as Nikki noted, but that is not a 1st person vs. a 3rd person issue -- that is clearly a community tradition and I want to be a part of this community, so I am happy to use it (gleefully so, in fact).

Please excuse my writer-oriented, mental shortcomings. Language can be so powerful and precise that I am often reading things too literally, and then stuck trying to interpret the meaning of it. I'll get better. One day...



"A meaningless manner of speaking"! You really should get out more!

Yes, I believe you are right about that, Heather Ann... :bonk:

[Tamara Croft]

Tamara would like to know what happened to the 2nd person reference, seeing as Tamara is her 2nd name and has no 3rd name :raspp:

[flatlander_48]

Although I joined over 9 years ago, it wan't until last year that I selected a name. Previously it didn't seem to have much importance for me. The more appropriate thing to me then was to use the same User Name that I do everyplace else (except for the _ which some sites don't use) across CD, LGBT, bicycle and motorsports forums. However, in today's context, it seems to help complete this other part of me. Beyond clothes and makeup, DeeAnn is only slightly different from Don. It would feel strange to me if that wasn't the case.

I have always found it a bit odd when people refer to themselves in the 3rd person. It almost feels like a personality disorder, so I rarely do it. Whether I am speaking from the perspective of Don or DeeAnn comes from the context of what's written. If not, my prose has been not as finely honed as intended.

That said, it would be unlikely for me to comment directly about someone's 3rd person reference. Who am I to say how all this sits for someone else? We each have our own thoughts and we're on our own paths, so unless something REALLY weird was stated, I would tend to leave it alone.

[Rachel Morley]

I like what AllieSF and Erin had to say about this. Personally, I don't ever use the 3rd person to describe my femme self when talking with others as they (Rachel and me) are one and the same. That said, my wife has on occasion referred to "Rachel" (meaning me) to my face when we're shopping and I'm in boy mode and there's a lot of people that are close enough to us hear her say "this dress would look cute on you" so she'll say "this would look cute on Rachel" but if we're on our own then she'll say "you" not "Rachel".

[Dianne S]

I sometimes use it as a shorthand because I currently live part-time as a woman. For example, I took my mom shopping yesterday and before I picked her up, I said "By the way, it'll be Dianne picking you up."
But that's pretty much the only context in which I use it. The rest of the time, I am who I am, and I happen to be Dianne.

[Karen62]

Thanks to everyone for all of these wonderful responses. They are really helping me "learn the language" of this forum. Right now, all I know about crossdressing is what I have experienced in my life, and you all have so much more to teach me. And that's why I am here (finally).

Karen62