Formal Declaration of the "Man in a Dress Contingent" Agenda

[Jason+]

Well Michele, I'm glad you're comfortable in a dress with a guy's head sticking out the top. There's a pretty vocal contingent on this forum who push this agenda for all its worth. I no longer dress at home, alone, hidden from view, only going out in the dark. I dress to go out and socialize with fabulous CD girlfriends who embrace the classy feminine mystique in all its forms and glory. Some of us may occasionally "pass", and some of us don't, but it is not for lack of putting forth the effort. I'm 6'6" in heels but I still look good and take a fabulous picture of a tall, well dressed, older, lady with big hands, square jaw, and a deep voice. We don't hide our beauty on the inside and the outside too.

First off thank you for your honesty and your underestimation.

It is interesting that you as a member of a group that is usually charged with have an "agenda" would level such a charge into your own community. If the six or seven of us that I directly know about are worthy of being a "contingent" with an agenda let me formally declare what it is. Agenda of the Contingent. (https://www.usconstitution.net/const.pdf) I checked this against the Homosexual Agenda and the Transsexual agenda with the one member of each group I have had the privilege to meet in person and based on the single person check my agenda is identical to theirs.

I would provide a link to the Manifesto but it's just as easy to reproduce here:

Read Agenda
Apply To ALL


Against the wishes of the "Passing Brigade" and "Defenders of the Cause" I also have chosen not to hide and be alone or go out only in the darkness. The hair I wear when I go out in a skirt or dress is the same hair that I will wear to work Monday morning in dress pants and button front shirt. It's authentic me all the way and of the utmost importance to me to have it that way. Since retiring from the military I have worked on growing it out and finding a style that works with both sides of the closet, keeps my wife happy and doesn't make my employer too upset with me.

The fact that I do not have a need to develop an alternate persona and name, wear padding, wigs, forms and makeup while I pretend to be something I know to my core I'm not does not in any way shape or form imply a lack of effort on my part to look well or be presentable. If the cost of that is a low fabulosity rating and the revocation of any invitation to attend your gatherings, galas and affairs I will see my Skag-Drag (From the Divas Las Vegas faq) self to the virtual door and continue entering the actual real establishments where I live that seem happy enough to be at least civil while they accept my money.

In addition to the things I don't need above what I won't do is tell someone who does need or want those things that they are wrong for it. While I prefer to be clean shaven before I go out no matter what side of the closet I've chosen from I will not have the audacity to tell a bearded man in his dress that he should have to shave or stay home over my preferences. If providing support for someone's post who appears to feel at least similarly to me adds me to a "vocal contingent" then if you have made it this far my voice in your head should be wall to wall stereo and borderline earth shattering with all the effect of a 64' organ pipe stop that you feel in your core more than hear.

[AllieSF]

Well stated Jason. Some people have an easy time saying live and let live, and have a hard time with actually following the "..let live" part. Enjoy your life. You are as good and maybe even better representative of who we are than I am based on your total honesty approach to others. Keep up the good work.

[Marcelle]

Hi Jason,

I am firm believer that there is no right way or wrong way to be who we are and whatever makes you happy is all that counts in the end. The funny thing is, when you remove the make-up, the forms, the hip padding and whatnot . . . we (TG/CD) are truly just men in dresses.

Hugs

Isha

[justmetoo]

I agree. People should be free to express themselves however they want (barring things like indecent exposure). We get caught up in the gender binary, when we should live and let live. As long as you're having fun, being yourself, and not hurting anyone, it's all good. :)
I do think things will get better as the generations roll on. These days more young people I know are supportive of all sorts of gender expression, spanning the spectrum.

[marie_cd]

Jason, I have to say your approach is refreshing to me as someone who is new to the whole thing even though I secretly tried on and enjoyed women's clothes much of my life. Looking through many forums, I feel like there's a lot of pressure to be 100% feminine. I'm not sure what is going on yet and just figuring it out as I go, so knowing that there is always the "just wear what you want and present how you like" approach is great.

[Lynn Marie]

Dang, I think my statement just got validated.

[Stephanie Voorhees]

Jason,
I couldn't agree more with your post. I also have noticed that amongst a group that preaches "don't judge me just accept me for who I am" that there is quite a bit of judgement passed within our own community. I'm a hairy, linebacker of a guy who happens to love wearing skirts and dresses. I shave my legs, I have a hairy chest. I wear makeup, I have a goatee. I am a firm believer that there is no wrong way to crossdress. I dress how I want to make me happy, and if that offends some random stranger then TFB.

[Katey888]

A timely reminder of one part of the diversity of our broader community Jason... :clap:

I have nothing but complete respect and appreciation of your integrity and authenticity in the way you represent yourself and - by association - others here who follow that course. I couldn't do what you do myself as it's just not me, but I'd have no problems sharing a girly cocktail, elbow to elbow if the opportunity arose.. :hugs:

Interesting fact I came across the other day that I'll use as a metaphor: There is no colour in the natural world (yes, staggering but true...). Those slightly different wavelengths in the visible spectrum are just that: different wavelengths... It's only in our mind that they are given 'colour' - which is actually an abstract construct, not a physical phenomenon. :thinking:

I try to remember that our impressions of both ourselves and the outside world are like that - just abstract constructs in our mind's eye... Why shouldn't we be accepting of everyone, just because their image doesn't align with our expectations, it doesn't make them any less real and honest. :D

Oh - and Lynn...


Dang, I think my statement just got validated.

No - your statement wasn't validated - just used as a suitable vehicle and exposé... :)

Katey x

[Kate Simmons]

Those contingents tend to get around I guess. :heehee::battingeyelashes:

[Sara Jessica]

I will be the first to admit that my point of view has made it difficult to get my head around the "man-in-dress" presentation. This arose out of having close friendships with several women in transition and seeing what they go through every day. One of these friendships in particular led me commit in that my efforts when out & about is to do nothing that makes things any more difficult for any TG who follows in my wake (whether TS, CD or somewhere in between as we are not wearing badges which profess our POV).

This has since been tempered somewhat by reading the words of others in these pages (M.Moose, are you listening?) and coming to appreciate an alternate viewpoint. Your words over the years as well Jason have inspired me to learn. I think I have gained a better understanding through reading your occasional writings.

So what does all of this mean? Are you hurting the bigger cause that I speak of? Probably not but I subscribe to the theory that perception is often reality and in dealing with the Muggles, I think your presentation will burn more into their perception than those who aspire to blend among other women.

Does this mean that I have any "men-in-dresses" as part of my own social circle? No, but not because I eschew such a thing. I think this is more because I somehow find a mutual friendship attraction in others who are more like me in terms of their POV's. Would I shun you in a social gathering? Heck no. I find it utterly fascinating to talk to others who are part of the same tribe yet express themselves differently.

Is Lynn (or anyone else) a bad person for holding such opinions? No more so than I in sharing my own. Not only is she a really neat person, having met her myself, but I appreciate her honesty. Face it, people have a hard time getting their heads around any of us. Maybe I'm delusional and the Muggles have an easier time understanding the man-in-dress POV but regardless, there will be no last word in this thread because the camps are firmly entrenched in their beliefs. I think the best we can hope for is that an honest exchange of opinions and ideas will lead to at least some semblance of mutual understanding, if not a level of respect as well.

[bridget thronton]

I tend to agree that there are no firm rules on presentation. I can look at some folks and think that is not the look forward me but I will not judge them as being inappropriate.

[Tammy Lynn Tx]

When in late teens to late 20's I could pass very well, but in my 50's I pass more as my mother. To be totally honest, it takes standing behind an eight foot mud wall.
My hat is off to ALL here for what ever reasons they are

[Teresa]

Sara,
I tend to agree with your comments, but I guess it is a case of what we want to get out of our CDing as individuals ! The problem is the public doesn't understand us as individuals !!

Still poses the old question as Cders, to be out in public at all ??

[LilSissyStevie]

Well said Jason. It's mind boggling how bigoted the "TG community" is about it's own members. We get what we deserve from the rest of the world.

[Robert]

Thanks for saying this Jason. It is posts like these that keep me coming back here.

Sign me up.

[Jenniferathome]

Jason, I don't understand why you choose to dress as a female but not present entirely so. Probably in the same way that you don't understand why I want to present completely as female (heck, I don't understand it.)

Those like me are posers of some kind. The real irony is that YOU are an actual cross dresser! Funny that a cross dresser can't get a break on crossdressers.com.

[Tracii G]

If you want to be the guy in a dress then by all means have at it,you have my support.
The whole argument about who is real and who isn't is just plain stupid.
I get stepped on for being 50/50 in my daily presentation by some on here but thats fine with me.Doesn't make me any less real than anyone else.
I'll put it this way if you have the stones to do it and don't mind the ridicule from the masses then good for you.

[Andy66]

Good rant, Jason. Of course you should be yourself, without some other people trying to make you feel bad.

[Jason+]

I will be the first to admit that my point of view has made it difficult to get my head around the "man-in-dress" presentation. This arose out of having close friendships with several women in transition and seeing what they go through every day. One of these friendships in particular led me commit in that my efforts when out & about is to do nothing that makes things any more difficult for any TG who follows in my wake (whether TS, CD or somewhere in between as we are not wearing badges which profess our POV).

This has since been tempered somewhat by reading the words of others in these pages (M.Moose, are you listening?) and coming to appreciate an alternate viewpoint. Your words over the years as well Jason have inspired me to learn. I think I have gained a better understanding through reading your occasional writings.

Is Lynn (or anyone else) a bad person for holding such opinions? No more so than I in sharing my own. Not only is she a really neat person, having met her myself, but I appreciate her honesty. ….. I think the best we can hope for is that an honest exchange of opinions and ideas will lead to at least some semblance of mutual understanding, if not a level of respect as well.

The last thing I want to do is cause someone in transition extra pain. I recognize that my existence as I am can be a painful reminder of what they have worked hard to overcome and maybe are still working on. It effects more than just the online community, all the way to literally my little sister although that will be her story to tell.

What I try to do while out is leave people with a positive interaction albeit perhaps a more burned in one. Good service deserves a tip no matter how I’m dressed although I may tip heavier in a dress. A former landlady was approached by a neighbor who asked if she knew I was “that way” before renting to me. Her response was “Yeah, but he pays his rent on time each month.” My hope continues to be that people I interact with will remember that I was polite and well-mannered along with how I was dressed.

For Lynn’s opinion I was sincere in my thanks for her honesty and the underestimation. She may be one of the nicest people on the planet for those who meet the standards important to her. If there is any mutual respect of differing positions in the statement that I took issue with I’m having a difficult time finding it. By itself that is not enough to call her opinion invalid I just vociferously disagree with it.



I have nothing but complete respect and appreciation of your integrity and authenticity in the way you represent yourself and - by association - others here who follow that course. I couldn't do what you do myself as it's just not me, but I'd have no problems sharing a girly cocktail, elbow to elbow if the opportunity arose.. :hugs:

Katey x


Jason, I don't understand why you choose to dress as a female but not present entirely so. Probably in the same way that you don't understand why I want to present completely as female (heck, I don't understand it.)

Those like me are posers of some kind. The real irony is that YOU are an actual cross dresser! Funny that a cross dresser can't get a break on crossdressers.com.

To try and begin to answer that I’m going to borrow a piece from Katey. It just isn’t me. I can’t tell you for sure why I look at a dress, heels and nail polish and want them while at the same time don’t feel the need for the wig and the rest.

I am trying to dress like me. I view it sort of like a salad bar. Most people don’t put every item at the bar on every salad every time. They try things individually and in combination till they find the taste that’s just right for them.

It isn’t that I never tried things like Mary Delores or Jasmon or even “Helga von Schuttentrapp!” They just never fit quite the same way Jason has. Lipstick was sometimes nice but without the rest of the makeup was more out of place. Combine that with being one of my wife's top 3 disliked items and some good advice from Reine that made sense and still rang true to me I don't wear it much.

I won’t call you a poser simply because your salad has more toppings than mine. :D

[Majella St Gerard]

Thank you Jason, I'm with you.

[Zooey]

To try and begin to answer that I’m going to borrow a piece from Katey. It just isn’t me. I can’t tell you for sure why I look at a dress, heels and nail polish and want them while at the same time don’t feel the need for the wig and the rest.

I am trying to dress like me. I view it sort of like a salad bar. Most people don’t put every item at the bar on every salad every time. They try things individually and in combination till they find the taste that’s just right for them.

Despite being TS, never having really understood the "dude in a dress" thing, and obviously having made a different set of choices in how I present myself, on these points we agree and can find some common ground.

I HATED wigs, because they felt like a costume to me and I don't want to wear a costume - I just want to be me. My current goals involve beard removal and beginning HRT, precisely so that I can wear less makeup and feel more like myself.

[Leona]

I'm of the opinion that a "man in a dress" or whatever you want to call a man who doesn't attempt to present as female does a lot more to help than hurt.

Considering that, somewhere at the base of all of this is the idea that men can't do girly things and women can't do boyish things, everytime a man in a dress is accepted wearing a dress, it makes it that much easier for the MAB-presenting-female that follows him to be accepted.

That's not the One Right Way To Get Acceptance For All, mind you, it's just one way those of us who like to wear skirts and stuff without feeling pressured to present as female can make a contribution.

[PaulaQ]

@Jason+ - nothing about my experience as a female identified, traditionally feminine, transitioning trans woman in any way invalidates your experience, nor anyone else's. Sure, what you do wouldn't be right for me (I'd probably just shoot myself - because what you do would freak me out badly), but that doesn't mean it's not right for you. Be who you are, and ignore the haters.

Nobody on this forum, at least none of the gender variant folks here, has much of a leg to stand on if they want to start telling others how to present, or what their identity should be. Guardians of the gender binary, we are not! That some of us try to be is, well, really short sighted on their part, in my opinion.

[Jason+]

Thank you Jason, I'm with you.

:) If only I had made your acquaintance before I retired from the Navy and left South Carolina in 2010.


I HATED wigs, because they felt like a costume to me and I don't want to wear a costume - I just want to be me. My current goals involve beard removal and beginning HRT, precisely so that I can wear less makeup and feel more like myself.
Zooey, that really resonated with me. Halloween is the one day even the Navy couldn’t or at least didn’t take away. For the last 2 or three years I haven’t dressed for Halloween because it isn’t a costume. It is instead a regular part of life for me.



Considering that, somewhere at the base of all of this is the idea that men can't do girly things and women can't do boyish things, everytime a man in a dress is accepted wearing a dress, it makes it that much easier for the MAB-presenting-female that follows him to be accepted.

That adds to the answer to Jennifer's question. To understand more how I feel you would have to be able to break the automatic assignment of dresses to women. That's a tall order and my understanding is that if dresses suddenly became mainstream for men and actually cut for them the dresses would no longer be womens dresses and would lose their appeal for a lot of people.



. Would I shun you in a social gathering? Heck no. I find it utterly fascinating to talk to others who are part of the same tribe yet express themselves differently.


I think a cup of coffee or tasty adult beverage with you and Docrobbysherry would be one heck of an evening!


but I'd have no problems sharing a girly cocktail, elbow to elbow if the opportunity arose.. :hugs:

Katey x

Perhaps someday I'll have another visit to the UK. Brisbane was sure a good time. If you should find yourself in either Los Angeles (where I live) or Las Vegas (worth the drive for said cocktail with you).... :D


@Jason+ - nothing about my experience as a female identified, traditionally feminine, transitioning trans woman in any way invalidates your experience, nor anyone else's. Sure, what you do wouldn't be right for me (I'd probably just shoot myself - because what you do would freak me out badly), but that doesn't mean it's not right for you. Be who you are, and ignore the haters.


Do I ignore them or thank them? Fortunately for me I had a lot of haters growing up when the worst provocation I gave them was homemade clothes, walking and talking funny. A lot of the hater influence was burnt out prior to skirts and dresses.

[LelaK]

The fact that I do not have a need to develop an alternate persona and name [etc] while I pretend to be something I know to my core I'm not does not in any way shape or form imply a lack of effort on my part to look well or be presentable.
Does that mean those of us who favor an alternate persona and name etc are pretending to be something we're not? If that's what you think, I beg to differ, emphatically. I happen to be a "man" in a dress most of the time when dressed, but my identity is feminine and I definitely have the right to make my exterior conform to my ideal in the interior as much as I want to.

And why care about society's standards of what's "presentable"?

[Jason+]

In addition to the things I don't need above what I won't do is tell someone who does need or want those things that they are wrong for it. While I prefer to be clean shaven before I go out no matter what side of the closet I've chosen from I will not have the audacity to tell a bearded man in his dress that he should have to shave or stay home over my preferences.




I won’t call you a poser simply because your salad has more toppings than mine. :D

Lela, making your exterior conform to your ideal interior and identity would not only not be pretending it would be living as authentically true to you. I have (or at least am working towards having) one integrated persona composed of parts of all the available options as they are applicable to me. What I want is not to have a lack of need for those things be misconstrued as simple laziness or a lack of effort on my part.

The standard of presentable is more mine than society's. While I have met more resistance from the online society than I have from the public version I have been able to learn even from my detractors and use pieces to adjust my standard. "Presentable" for me is likely different than most. My idea is to minimize the impact to society and any potential pain for those who may follow me while staying true to me.

[UNDERDRESSER]

For the last 2 or three years I haven’t dressed for Halloween because it isn’t a costume. It is instead a regular part of life for me.Wearing a skirt isn't a costume for me either, and that was part of the reason I didn't dress last Halloween. I didn't want to associate skirt wearing with "costume"




That adds to the answer to Jennifer's question. To understand more how I feel you would have to be able to break the automatic assignment of dresses to women. That's a tall order and my understanding is that if dresses suddenly became mainstream for men and actually cut for them the dresses would no longer be womens dresses and would lose their appeal for a lot of people.
Of course, the reverse is true for me, I am always looking for a dress that can look good on me at 6'2" and 200lbs. One that accommodates my shoulders and doesn't try to show off cleavage that I don't have. I don't mind partly showing a bare chest, along with what little hair is there, but doing that without people wondering if I forgot the falsies, or bringing back memories of Tom Jones is tricky!

[Sara Jessica]

I think a cup of coffee or tasty adult beverage with you and Docrobbysherry would be one heck of an evening!

I'll put my money where my mouth is, if you're buying of course ;)!!! Seriously, I can see this happening. like I said, I love meeting interesting people. And to bring Sherry into this, you cannot get much more interesting than my dear friend Sherry.

[Zooey]

If we can make the scheduling work, I might be willing to drive down from SF for that. :)

[Brenn]

Fully agree with you Jason. Add me to the list of people who wear the clothes they like without regard to what part of the store they came from.

[StarrOfDelite]

I think that this thread is probably the best argument for using the umbrella term "transgendered" to describe a general personality type which includes everyone who likes to crossdress. I personally want to look as Femme as possible, so I shave all over 2-3 times a week, wear earrings, diet and exercise to stay slender, pamper my face with lotions, cold creams, and hypoallergenic cosmetics, and practice feminine mannerisms, walk and voice almost daily. I want to blend as much as possible, and do whatever I can short of surgery to foster the illusion. However, I don't think this makes me more "authentic" than a M2F whose transgender feelings are fulfilled by wearing pantyhose and an unpadded bra under male clothing. We are both transgendered, and hence, like Rosie O'Grady and the Colonel's Lady, are sisters under the skin.

[JessicaJHall]

While I would fight and die for your right to dress how you want, I have to point out that in disregarding what others may be thinking one can run the risk of venturing into rudeness. It's a fine line, and I'm certainly no judge of this, I don't really care what others wear all that much, and god knows I'm no shining example, but it's not a crime to be considerate either.
I know I know, some of you are thinking: What a jerk. Perhaps an example will help dig me out of this: Would you show up at a wedding in overalls, because they made you comfortable, and feel like "you"? Better yet, what if it was your daughter's wedding? Or for that matter, why not just walk around naked? Provided it's warm enough, what could be more "comfortable"? Or more "you"?
All I'm saying is in any civilized setting there is a certain amount of discomfort and fakery in looking decent or presenting a pleasing appearance to others. You can't please everyone obviously, especially as a CD, but for me, I appreciate those who make the effort to look nice. Not just femmy nice either, I think a guy in a dress even with, say a beard can look nice, provided one's mind is open, and believe me, my mind has to be grand canyon wide open to accept my own crazy a$$!!
That said, I accept you as one of us and love you for who you are regardless of your tastes or comfort levels... unless you are an a-hole, of course.. but that's another thread!

[docrobbysherry]

Here's my scatterbrained comments:

1. The first thing dressers have to do is look in their mirror in private and work until they see who or what vision they can live with. Working within the physical gifts/limits we're born with. Or, choose to cheat. As most of us do. It's funny that some think my masks r objectionable but would no more go out without their forms, makeup, or wigs than they would naked!:heehee:

In my case? I dressed alone in a complete vacuum for 10+ years. And, couldn't bare even a glance of myself dressed without a mask on. Still dislike the 'man in a dress' look on ME!:doh:

2. Dealing with others reaction to your dressed persona.
Here's where the differences between dressers fade. Because unless you're one of the "truly blessed" that actually can consistently pass? The public doesn't care if you're a CD/TS or a guy going to a Halloween party. We're all men in dresses to them!:sad:

For 12 years I never had to deal with other's reactions to me out, dressed. Because there weren't any, period! I dressed completely to suit myself and still prefer that to going out.
Now that I DO go out, I have 2 choices:
I can go out dressed unhappily and stressed as me and endure whatever attitudes, (usually not positive), the muggles have meeting a man in a dress. And, enjoy the fellowship of other similarly dressed T friends.
Or, go out happily unstressed dressed as Sherry, (me with a mask), and freak out everyone, muggle and T friends, equally!

I'm now well aware of an A list of dressers. I'd be a hypocrite to say I'd refuse an invitation to join them just because I'll never be asked. "Please don't throw me in that briar patch, Brer Fox!" But, if they were as pretentious in person as they look? I'd go once and never go back!

Most dressers try to present as the "woman they feel they r", or would like to be. I try to present as any pretty woman. Because none of them r me, I don't want to see me in them!:brolleyes:

I'd love to have a cuppa with u Jason. And, u can dress however u r comfortable. But, I'll have to be in drab. Because I'm MOST comfortable with me dressed that way out!:thumbsup:

[bimini1]

Yes be you, to each his own. It got me to thinking about my own cd "career" so to speak. From the time I was 4 to about 33-34ish I made no effort to really present with all the trappings (wigs, forms, make up, etc). I wasn't going out but just the clothes was enough.

Then I messed around and got a wig and some forms and it developed to something else. Maybe that something else was there all along. Maybe I'm fooling myself to say that it was. Maybe I just don't know. But for me I knew if I ever stepped out that door into the outside world I wanted it all there. To emulate a real GG to the best of my ability.

I think there are differing levels of identity and comfort zones we all have. For some it progresses. Well I've got hose, I wonder what slipping into heels with them on would feel like. I've got a bra, now what does filling it out feel like. What would I really look like with long flowing locks of hair? How about some eye shadow. Now some lip gloss.
And on and on it goes until you reach the satiation point. Or you don't. What would it feel like to get involved with a man? Am I TS, CD? Somewhere in between?
But was it there all along? And you had more resources to achieve it after a while.

What was it that pushed me past simply wearing the clothes with my male presented head sticking out the collar? That made me want to emulate, feel as womanly as possible. Be on that feminine side of socialized society.
Different for us all. Motivations, payoffs.
Be you.

[AlanaG]

I've never worn a dress outside the house. But I have worn a skirt a few times. The last time was a long black skirt down to my ankles, a "formal" skirt if you will. I wore a black dress shirt (man's) with it and some 3" heeled ankle boots. The wife and I went out to eat at a nice restaurant and then to a concert. BTW I don't ever wear makeup or a wig, so there is no chance that someone would mistake me for a female. Sure I got some looks. None of them showed any contempt at all. Curious mostly I'd say. This was the first time that the wife went with me willingly with me wearing a skirt, she's been very negative about it. I've got a few denim shorter skirts that I've worn a few times out as well, once to Costco.

Afterwards, I asked her if it was as bad as she thought it would be. She said no.

I think people should be able to wear what they want. I figure the more males who dress in non-drab mode the better; whether you try to pass as a woman or not. If we want to be treated better, then we have to show the public that we are nice people and deserve to be who we are.

[adrienner99]

At some fundamental level, this site is supposed to be about letting people be who they are without judgment, and maybe even get a little support. There are a surprising number of people on here who don't get that. There are plenty of people on the outside ready to laugh at us, fire us, ridicule us and even do us physical harm. Over the years, I have seen comments here that might as well come from that quarter.

I dress up like a girl. So does Jason. We may do so a little differently but that is a bond that deserves respect.

[Jason+]

I'll put my money where my mouth is, if you're buying of course ;)!!! Seriously, I can see this happening. like I said, I love meeting interesting people. And to bring Sherry into this, you cannot get much more interesting than my dear friend Sherry.


If we can make the scheduling work, I might be willing to drive down from SF for that. :)


I'd love to have a cuppa with u Jason. And, u can dress however u r comfortable. But, I'll have to be in drab. Because I'm MOST comfortable with me dressed that way out!:thumbsup:
:) Guess that would make it my turn to put up or hush up! Since Sara Jessica and Sherry are both from the OC it makes sense for me to come and see you two. Zooey, how much advance notice would you need for a trip down on a Saturday? Come as you are comfortable I don’t think the coffee will mind! I’ll commit to buying at least first round whether its coffee or stronger.


While I would fight and die for your right to dress how you want, I have to point out that in disregarding what others may be thinking one can run the risk of venturing into rudeness. It's a fine line, and I'm certainly no judge of this, I don't really care what others wear all that much, and god knows I'm no shining example, but it's not a crime to be considerate either.
That said, I accept you as one of us and love you for who you are regardless of your tastes or comfort levels... unless you are an a-hole, of course.. but that's another thread!

I try to consider all opinions, even those that completely disagree with mine for any relevant pieces I can learn from or apply. Without discussing it with my daughter or the bride (and grooms for that matter) I wouldn’t wear overalls or an appropriate dress to the wedding. I try to consider the audience in what I choose to wear. My favorite red dress and knee boots are a little overdone for the grocery store. The combination of what I wear and the decorum observed is designed to keep my choice in under wear private. :D

I try not to be a-hole whether I’m in pants or said red dress. The opinion on that may range depending on your survey sample set.

[BobbyRay]

I have always had the attitude that if girls can wear trousers guys should be able to wear skirts and dresses if they want.

It may be an odd distinction but I'd happily go out presenting as a male wearing a dress if that dress was sold as a "man" dress and have done so with a skirt I found a few years back when I was going through a gothic phase. (It's long black canvas skirt with belts forming a cross across the front and several d rings for adding chains and the like.)
However if I were to go out wearing any of the dresses I currently own I would want to present as a girl because they are girls dresses and wouldn't look right to me on a guy if that makes sense.

With regards to some of the experiences people have had with presenting as a man in a dress.
I've found from personal experience wearing the "man" skirt exactly what you wear with it has a huge impact on peoples reaction to you.
Two experiences, at different times, both when travelling with the youth group I attended, really brought that home to me.

In the first, whilst I was wearing my skirt I was wearing sandals and a red surfer t-shirt with it.
When we stopped of at a motorway service station I immediately caused a bit of a stir and had all sorts of strangers making comments to me about it, whether that be questions about it or joking remarks such as "Shouldn't you be using the other toilets". Now this in itself is unusual for the UK as small talk with strangers is kinda taboo most of the time. I also got a lot of grins and smiling faces from people.

In the other instance I was in my full "goth" get up so I had on army boots, band t-shirt, black leather jacket, spiked up hair and fingerless gloves along with the skirt. And what a difference. I walked into the service station and the place went silent. No one said a word to me the whole time I was there, I could see people pointing at me from across the way and commenting when they didn't think I was looking but not one person said a word to me about it and any looks were generally disapproving and not in the way I got when I was in goth/rock mode and had jeans on rather than a skirt.

I know the goth thing causes it's own issues but the contrast in reaction went beyond that.

Also on a lighter note given the context of the conversation I thought id share this video of the winner of a major singing contest over here in Europe which you may or may not have seen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaolVEJEjV4

[Lorileah]

I have always had the attitude that if girls can wear trousers guys should be able to wear skirts and dresses if they want.


Who says you can't? there are all sorts of men's skirts and dresses available online. But even with that who says you can't appear as a man wearing a skirt?

[SANDRA MICHELLE]

Rock on Jason any way you want to, oh and thank you for your service to our country. I have the utmost respect for all who serve and for my money you can do any damn thing that floats your battleship. I have gotten lazy at times and have gone out without all the trappings of my fem self but mostly I try to present as fem as I possibly can, but that's just me. Just keep doing what makes you happy, "damn the torpedoes and full speed ahead"!!! Do you like the naval quips?

[Christie ann]

I started here a few years ago knowing that want to be a girl in the worst way and if I were 20 all over again, I would go down that path. But reality is that I am a bit older than that with a grown family and wife that I wouldn't want to hurt with transition. So, my compromise is that I wear clothes designed for women while keeping my male body. So I do go out in female clothing with a male head as it were. My answer is that these are my clothes and I will wear them when and how I want.

[Zooey]

Zooey, how much advance notice would you need for a trip down on a Saturday?

A couple of weeks, generally. It's not about the drive down - it's about making sure I actually have a Saturday free. :)

[pamela7]

I will not have the audacity to tell a bearded man in his dress that he should have to shave or stay home over my preferences. If providing support for someone's post who appears to feel at least similarly to me adds me to a "vocal contingent" then if you have made it this far my voice in your head should be wall to wall stereo and borderline earth shattering with all the effect of a 64' organ pipe stop that you feel in your core more than hear.

For me, coming here, this is a first-and-foremost a support group, where those of us not living within the social "norms", accept eachother as they/we are. I'm very much a man in ladies clothing, and dislike shaving, so my stubble/beard is always apparent. I am not sure if we need "categories" to measure where we belong, its all a bit tribal to me, whereas we are a spectrum of variations, and I wish to champion the rights of any and all to their personal right to be the way they feel is their natural way.

I particularly feel that we're a marginalised group, and must stick together, and support and embrace diversity if we are to ever persuade the normal majority to also embrace diversity.

in love to all.

xxx Pamela

[LexiNexi]

I guess my conflict is this (threads were merged sorry if off topic) I'm a size nine dress, short, have no adams apple, big eyes, and wear a shoe size nine, If I wear a wig and make up no one would know I was a guy, etc etc. I would make a great looking female but I don't want to be girl. But I like to dress like one.

[Sara Jessica]

Too late Lexi, we all know now because you told us.

Seriously, there are very few in these pages who can truly pull off "no one would know I was a guy". Best to check that bravado at the door.

[LexiNexi]

Too late Lexi, we all know now because you told us.

Seriously, there are very few in these pages who can truly pull off "no one would know I was a guy". Best to check that bravado at the door.

How do you know that?

Really this is bothering me. I know with HRT I would look much better. I'm trying to be a real man but my body is too soft, my facial features too girly.

I sometimes wish I was gay so that I could pull off the transformation and be normal. Yes I know its how I feel but I look out of place.

[Zylia]

LexiNexi, I think that's what we call an educated guess, but hey, maybe you're the one percent.

Re: topic: Most of us identify more or less as cross-dresser and I'm obviously part of the greater "trying to present as a woman" subset. That's not to say I can identify with all of them. If I ever feel the need to feel like I'm a sane person while still wearing a dress, I know all I have to do is boot up the Internet and read the stories that some of my 'sisters' (not necessarily on this website) write.

We face some of the same challenges and deep down below it may have a similar origin, but we're still all individuals with our own idiosyncrasies.

Jason, I admire your ability to express yourself just the way you are. For what it's worth, you're way more honest in that regard than I will ever be.

[LexiNexi]

LexiNexi, I think that's what we call an educated guess, but hey, maybe you're the one percent.

Re: topic: Most of us identify more or less as cross-dresser and I'm obviously part of the greater "trying to present as a woman" subset. That's not to say I can identify with all of them. If I ever feel the need to feel like I'm a sane person while still wearing a dress, I know all I have to do is boot up the Internet and read the stories that some of my 'sisters' (not necessarily on this website) write.

We face some of the same challenges and deep down below it may have a similar origin, but we're still all individuals with our own idiosyncrasies.

Jason, I admire your ability to express yourself just the way you are. For what it's worth, you're way more honest in that regard than I will ever be.

Its like I'm trying to be a man but I can't pull it off. But I'm straight I can't be a girl... dunno.

[Zylia]

LexiNexi, this is off topic by a mile or two, but that's complete and utter nonsense. There's this thing you may be unfamiliar with called homosexuality. It's a widely accepted concept, arguably even more so than transgenderism. Please educate yourself on sexuality, identity, and transgenderism before you (inadvertently) offend more people here.

[Jennifer_Ph]

Well done Jason! I no longer dress to impress - I am pretty much a waist down "cross dresser." I love skirts, pantyhose, and heels! The rest of it, well, it's just not who I am really. I've gone out quite a few times in a skirt, hose, and heels. Most get a kick out of it. Keep being you!

[CONSUELO]

Jason,
If that is what you want to do and it feels good for you---Just do it! There are lots of variations of cross dressing and sexuality represented here on this site and we should not be the judge of what is acceptable or not.

[Ralph]

I have to say, this thread is the best news I've seen in a long time. I had largely dropped out of this community because I felt rather alone in my life as a bearded man in a dress, and I have indeed been on the receiving end (not necessarily here) of some pretty rough language for the perception that I make a mockery of crossdressing because I don't go all-out. I always figured, I wear a beard when I go out in t-shirt and jeans and I'm not vilified for not looking feminine; why should that change if I'm in a skirt instead?

That said, it's a moot point because I *don't* go out. Part of that is because I live in a very conservative rural community where people are vocal about their loathing of all things different, and in particular anyone different in terms of sex and/or gender are perceived as freaks. There are some valiant warriors willing to fight the good fight for recognition, but I'm not one of them. I prefer to keep my teeth in my mouth. Since I work from home and have a wonderfully understanding (if not enthusiastic) wife, I can dress comfortably nearly 24/7, apart from the times I have to go out and face the world.

Anyhow, very glad to meet some "brothers" here.