Drab women

[KellyT]

Following on from the current thread http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22308

It got me thinking:

What do you think when you see a woman who obviously doesn't care for her appearance? I don't mean someone who has just gone out in joggers and t shirt for a comfy day. I mean the women that you see that don't take any pride in their appearance or the clothes that they wear and haven't done for a long time.

My thoughts always run the same way. I find it hard to understand why they wouldn't want to dress feminine and take pride in who they are. Then I always think "What a waste, they should've been born a man and let me be the woman. I could've made such a better job at it"

[Shelly Preston]

Hi Kelly

Don't be to harsh on those women

I understand what you are saying about pride in their appearance.
Some women have other priorities.
It may be a need to buy something more practical than stylish.
It may be their circumstances do allow them the time.

Try not to judge others, remember were are not all the same.

[TaraB]

Following on from the current thread http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22308

It got me thinking:

What do you think when you see a woman who obviously doesn't care for her appearance? I don't mean someone who has just gone out in joggers and t shirt for a comfy day. I mean the women that you see that don't take any pride in their appearance or the clothes that they wear and haven't done for a long time.

My thoughts always run the same way. I find it hard to understand why they wouldn't want to dress feminine and take pride in who they are. Then I always think "What a waste, they should've been born a man and let me be the woman. I could've made such a better job at it"



for some reason crossdressers think that the clothes are the only thing that make women feminine.

woman are inherently feminine ....with out the clothes. The clothes can accentuate their outer femininity just as well as a man/BF/husband can be a great reminder of their femininity. They don't need the clothes. Alot of CD's are so obsessed with the clothing aspect and only the clothing aspect....they really have no clue what it is to be female....or feminine.

Another thing women do....and you might think of this the next time you make judgements...

being a woman...especially an attractive woman draws ALOT of attention...and sometimes its unwanted....so when a woman dresses down its generally because she's trying not to draw attention to herself.

[Maria D]

Not everyone takes pride in their appearance, and that's up to them really. I just let people be what they want, it's what we ask for, right?
As for them not dressing as you would if you were them, well, that's because you are a crossdresser ;).
As to doing a better job, they are not doing a job, they are just 'being'. They never had a choice, like us. The clothes they wear don't make them women. I'm still me whether I wear a suit, a short skirt or a bin bag. Mind you, the bin bag isn't too comfy so that's reserved for summer months; too drafty. Oh, and never Tuesdays! Being thrown into the back of a lorry and crushed isn't pleasant, I won't make that mistake again!

Anyway, that's my thoughts. :)
xxx

[eleventhdr]

I often feel that way when i see women who are solvenly in there apperance but then perhaps there are reasons why they are that way. Women can be just like men sometime in how they feel about themselves or they might have been taught to be that way by other circumstances indeed outside of there wanting to be girlish and all pretty all of the time or most of it once one is taught that this does not matter really it can become to easy to become just that way i know my maleselve is currently this way. But if allowed to become female i think i would finally adjsut and go all out to be completly female and dress as girly as i alway could indeed. Thsi is how i would want to protry myself all girl almost all of time. Oh well Suzy!.

[TaraB]

if i woke up tomorrow a GG i wouldn't dress every days all super fem. I'd dress per occassion. I'd have days where i'd wear old sweats and a t-shirt and be perfectly happy because i needed no reminder i was a woman....i'd have breast.....i'd have a vagina......and most of all i'd have my inner being to which there is no question of who i am.

clothes do NOT make the woman. make no mistake of that. they only accentuate the woman.

[ReginaK]

The first thing I think is, "Gee, what waste. If I were a real woman, I wouldn't leave the house in less than anything but the 9s."

But then I come back to reality and realize even GGs want to be comfortable and probably don't care for all the work it takes to be a super model and they definitely don't want to do it all the time.



for some reason crossdressers think that the clothes are the only thing that make women feminine.

woman are inherently feminine ....with out the clothes. The clothes can accentuate their outer femininity just as well as a man/BF/husband can be a great reminder of their femininity. They don't need the clothes. Alot of CD's are so obsessed with the clothing aspect and only the clothing aspect....they really have no clue what it is to be female....or feminine.

I believe the reason so many crossdressers think clothes are what makes one feminine is because in some cases, it's all we have. A lot of us don't have breasts, long beautiful hair, menstural cramps, and all the other wonder characteristics of genetic women. So we overrate the few feminine things we have: Clothes and makeup. In many ways, crossdressers are like really big pre-teen girls.

As I learn and think more about myself and where i'm heading, I find myself moving away from that pre-teen crossdressing stage and wouldn't mind wearing that same T-shirt and jeans I just saw a GG in.

[Lilith Moon]

My thoughts always run the same way. I find it hard to understand why they wouldn't want to dress feminine and take pride in who they are. Then I always think "What a waste, they should've been born a man and let me be the woman. I could've made such a better job at it"

My wife has a great figure. She feels flattered by male attention, but sometimes she gets fed up with it. So, to get some respite, she will deliberately "dress down" in something relatively shapeless.

[BethGG]

You have to remember too, not all women like "girly" looking clothes. Some women prefer to wear more unisex type stuff or mens clothes. In the past I used to wear a lot of mens clothes, I wouldn't say I looked dirty or bad, but probably some of you would think "what a waste!", but see to me I prefered guys stuff. So some of these women you see that dress down or look bad...maybe they just like what they're wearing. Don't get me wrong, I too sometimes see people and think "Why would you walk out of the house in that??" :cheeky:

[Marlena Dahlstrom]

My thoughts always run the same way. I find it hard to understand why they wouldn't want to dress feminine and take pride in who they are.

Well I guess you've never gone out in running shoes, jeans and t-shirt for a comfy day -- or do you always wear a suit and wingtips? :rolleyes:

Maybe there's a woman who's wondering why some men wouldn't want to dress masculine and take pride in being men -- and frankly I've seen a number of CDs en homme who definitely put the drab in drab.

Look, people dress in all sorts of ways, and that's their right.

[kathy gg]

Ya know that old saying.... assuming starts with an "ass". Not saying you are an ass, but keep in mind that when you see a woman in "drab" {ugh, hate that word} you are assuming that she is choosing to look like hell. And if we all stopped and thought, what if you see a woman who does look upkept...well maybe she is having to care for an eldery parent, maybe she just had a baby a few weeks before, maybe she is going through the first stages of chemotherapy. Maybe....well you get my point.

Also Marla M, made a great point, women are not the only culprits of this supposed crime.

When I used to work in retail I learned very quickly that the old man wearing muddy boots and overalls and a old hat might be buying a leather sofa and paying for it in cash because he is a farmer and that is how he dresses. I also leaerned that some of the most well made-up and most coiffed and elaboratly dressed ladies and men got denighed credit becasue they are living on borrowed money and are over extended.

Looks and appearances are INCREDIBLY decieving.

It is very easy to judge when you don't know the reasons that person is looking the way they do on the day you see them.

I mean it is one thing to wear an unironed shirt and another to not have bathed in a week. Am I right?

Also Kelly, this line " I find it hard to understand why they wouldn't want to dress feminine and take pride in who they are. Then I always think "What a waste, they should've been born a man and let me be the woman. I could've made such a better job at it"

Feminiity does not equal non-pride. I know plenty of women who do not wear make up, elaborate hair, nor fancy clothes and they are still feminine. In their manners and their actions. They have empathy by the boatload, something you could take a lesson on. Being a woman is not a "job" as you like to refer to it, it is just a state of being.

What you have is called envy and it is not very pretty.

Hopefully as you mature you will understand that people are all different, and women are not on display for your pleasure only, people have lives that are filled with things which if you took the time to know them could explain why they might not be into their "appearance".

[pattied]

Hmm... my first thought was... shallow much?

But that wasn't very nice, so I apologize. That said, I think there is something to be said for dressing down for functionality's sake. Take my wife for instance: She is currently a stay at home mom, watching a 10 month old. She rarely dresses up too much largely because anything she did would be negated by that nifty little banana stain left by our daughter. And doing much more than putting her hair up is out of the question, as it gets pulled as soon as it is in reach of our little girl.

Remember, women have to view their wardrobe with practicality too. Spending an hour to get ready, when your job is to be a bench chemist, or retail (where you know you have to unpack and stock products most of the day) or waitress or whatever, really might not be useful, or... God forbid... efficient.

Just a thought.

[Lindahexi]

Well said Kathy, my wife wears trousers and sweaters most of the time for just shopping and normal day to day stuff, and my niece wears torn jeans and plain tops, with hardly any makeup, but both of them can look really fab and feminine when the occasion or the mood dictates. I think lots of women dress more for comfort than fashion in their everyday lives, unless their work demands otherwise. We should not judge them, especially as many guys look scruffy.

[Helana]

I have to laugh at this thread. What comes to mind are pictures of CDers who are dressed to the nines while performing household chores. To me seeing a CD in a prom dress while vacumning is a hundred times worse than seeing anyone - man or woman - looking scruffy.:p Get real.

[TaraB]

I have to laugh at this thread. What comes to mind are pictures of CDers who are dressed to the nines while performing household chores. To me seeing a CD in a prom dress while vacumning is a hundred times worse than seeing anyone - man or woman - looking scruffy.:p Get real.

i agree whole heartidly!

[Megan72]

I really need to with most here. My two cents. if we all really would like to be able to be a GG, wake up one morning and have what we "wanted". first the naive concept of time. How much time do we all spend getting ready? An hour, two? That would get very tireing after years, day after day. We are entitled to our "frumpy" days arn't we? The days that we spend lounging around in our PJ's on the couch.

The more in depth answer for me is that: As crossdressers, shouldn't we have some notion of how others perceive us? Face it, we are not the most accepted culture in the world, however better this is getting. we should at least have the ability to accept others, male or female as they are. Personally, i feel that all woman are beautiful, that is why i try so hard to emulate them in my own life and even "done up" we are only striving to be them.

[RenaCD]

I been going over this thread in my mind for a while now and trying to read it and all the replies carefully. And I do understand what Kelly is asking I have been there too. It's not fair to judge other people~ the way we ask not to be judged, but it is human nature. And I'm sure we all do it within our own Genders, which takes it away from a gender issue and makes it a human condition. Lord only knows that GG's are the worst offenders.
And Kathy as far as Envy goes we are all guilty, once again human nature, the up side is Improving ones self!
The other thing is dressing down as Marlena said and I'll be the first to admit, when I do Drab~ I really do Drab!
And I like it, one of the up sides of being Male.
Back to Kelly's question about GG"s drab (I hate That word Too) but when some girls let them self go they really go all out. Look at the TV programs making such a fortune on that subject. Make Over this and Make Over that. Its turned into and Industry all of its own

Good Thread Kelly
PS Got To go now and take my weekly bath and maybe even brush my teeth.

Big Huggs to All Rena

[KellyT]

Ya know that old saying.... assuming starts with an "ass". Not saying you are an ass, but keep in mind that when you see a woman in "drab" {ugh, hate that word} you are assuming that she is choosing to look like hell. And if we all stopped and thought, what if you see a woman who does look upkept...well maybe she is having to care for an eldery parent, maybe she just had a baby a few weeks before, maybe she is going through the first stages of chemotherapy. Maybe....well you get my point.

Also Marla M, made a great point, women are not the only culprits of this supposed crime.

When I used to work in retail I learned very quickly that the old man wearing muddy boots and overalls and a old hat might be buying a leather sofa and paying for it in cash because he is a farmer and that is how he dresses. I also leaerned that some of the most well made-up and most coiffed and elaboratly dressed ladies and men got denighed credit becasue they are living on borrowed money and are over extended.

Looks and appearances are INCREDIBLY decieving.

It is very easy to judge when you don't know the reasons that person is looking the way they do on the day you see them.

I mean it is one thing to wear an unironed shirt and another to not have bathed in a week. Am I right?

Also Kelly, this line " I find it hard to understand why they wouldn't want to dress feminine and take pride in who they are. Then I always think "What a waste, they should've been born a man and let me be the woman. I could've made such a better job at it"

Feminiity does not equal non-pride. I know plenty of women who do not wear make up, elaborate hair, nor fancy clothes and they are still feminine. In their manners and their actions. They have empathy by the boatload, something you could take a lesson on. Being a woman is not a "job" as you like to refer to it, it is just a state of being.

What you have is called envy and it is not very pretty.

Hopefully as you mature you will understand that people are all different, and women are not on display for your pleasure only, people have lives that are filled with things which if you took the time to know them could explain why they might not be into their "appearance".

Thank you for all your comments. The purpose of this post was not to cause any offence, but to air a personal opinion in a way that I felt was generally unobtrusive and gave everyone an opportunity to have their say. I see the purpose of forums as exactly that. A for individuals to air thoughts etc that they normally wouldn't get a chance to express in normal day to day conversation. If that is offensive then I apologise wholeheartedly. Unfortunately the wording of my posting could've probably been better, but sometimes the true meaning of someones thoughts is misconstrued when written in black and white. I do believe that this has been the case here.
Because of that I was taken aback by the vehemance that came through in Kathy's posting above. Perhaps, the tone of your post was lost in the translation to written page and if that is the case then again I find myself in the wrong. However, my posting was entirely a personal point and I welcome the views of everyone as their personal points. Most of us do live in a time when we don't have to be afraid of free speech. As I said I welcomed and considered many of the points put forward, but do find it hard to agree when the reply takes on a more personal tone, however subtle. No matter how much you disguise the fact that you are not calling me an ass, it still comes across as that is exactly what you are doing. Again that is your personal opinion, but perhaps maybe also an assumption as you may not have taken the time to get to know me. It is quite hard to make desicions on a personality at first glance. Even harder when that is based on a few postings on a forum.

Hopefully as you mature you will understand that people are all different, and women are not on display for your pleasure only, people have lives that are filled with things which if you took the time to know them could explain why they might not be into their "appearance

On the basis of one opinion, you have judged me to be immature. (I thought judging was wrong). I care for my older brother on a daily basis. He has cerebral palsy and has been born into a life of predjudice. You think it's bad being a crossdresser. We have had a lifetime togother of fights and bloody noses as we were bullied and my brother called a "spastic" and hundreds of other more derogatary terms. Okay in your opinion I may be immature, but I fully understand the concept of diversity in our society and wholeheartedly embrace equality, respect and dignity for all, whatever their opinions, views, stance, morals. etc If it does not harm another then what harm is there in it.

Kathy, my opinions, interests, life experiences will differ greatly to yours, but I am still entitled to have these opinions, and have these opinions without a judgement on my character.

I have considered what I posted and as I said above think I could have worded it slightly better as my thought has been misconstrued. I feel I have compromised my right to post on here and have decided to cease my membership.
Thank you to all those who offered support

[Amelie]

Kelly, Don't cease your membership to this forum. This will mean that your voice, whether right or wrong will be lost. I really didn't find your post all that bad, it was just your opinion. Maybe instead of saying women dressing drab, maybe saying men and women today dress very drab. When you single out one group, the people in that group will feel hurt.

Maybe using words like some women or most women would change the feeling of your post. I know the idea you were trying to say in your post, but maybe the wording made your post look harsh.

But don't leave the forum because of what one person says to you. If anything, this should make you more determined to stay and express your opinions. Your voice is needed just like every one else's.

[RenaCD]

You Get back Here! Don't leave now! You did a good thing!
Kelly Please!

[DanaJ]

KellyT, just my observation - you posted something which could be construed as controversial and an attack on GGs in general. That was fine, you have your opinions and this forum gives you the right to say that for others to see.

However, there is no need to attack Kathy GG for her opinion. There is also no need to defend yourself, you had your opinion on a controversial post, and just because you didn't get all the "yeah I agree" posts, there is no need to threaten you are leaving.

When you start a thread like this, you have to realize that there may be some strong opinions that disagree with yours, and they may be expressed in a manner you may not like.

[Bonnie D]

As I read through this post I was forming my opinion, or trying to figure out how to say what I wanted. Then I read Rena's comment and that was what I was thinking. We are human. I have thought the same thing as what Kelly is saying but then had to stop myself from continuing along that thought line because it wasn't right. I would see a basically attractive woman and think that if I was her I would definitely get in shape, buy some decent clothes and fix myself up. Then I would think, "how can I say that?" Am I any better? No. I'm not in terrible shape but could do a lot better. I could dress better. I could act better. I could be better. I then thought about the FTMs. If they saw me what would they think? Gee if I could be a GM like him I would sure appreciate the fact that I was male and be the best male I can be, look at him, what is he thinking.

No need to leave, Kelly. Controversy is how we learn to be better than we are. And we all need to be better.

Bonnie

[Cheery GG]

I have to agree very strongly with the views of DanaJ and kathy.

You know beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and you i find rather off putting !

All my love,

cheery
xx

[Megan72]

Kely, please do not leave. I think that it was wonderful that you were able to elicite such a sprited disscussion on this issue. I do not think that anybody was trying to push you away.

[kathy gg]

Kelly, not sure if you will read this, but maybe others will and that might take some of the sting off what I posted.

My understanding , as I have heard from crossdressers over and over through the years say is that the longer they dress their femme self "matures" the more the desire to be all about the "vanity" is not at front. Yes everyone wants to present themselves as best they can, but many tell me that it becomes more about the "feeling" that being en femme gives and secondly how one actually looks dressed.

I know alot of crossdressers who have gone from that "teen-aged" stage to one of womanhood. In essence they have gone from an immature stage in their femme self to one of maturity.

I posted what I felt, and if you stick around long enough you will see that I am one of the most outspokenly positive gg's when it comes to trans issues. I have nothing but love for this community. I looked to date a crossdresser and wish to help those who want support and a friend. I dont' have to agee with each post that every person writes, nor do they have to agree with mine. I commented on your post as I saw it. I am sorry the "immature" comment was taken incorrectly. I do believe that the longer one spends enriching and embracing their femme self the more that "girl" grows and matures. Hell, I still have maturing to do! I am just 34 and I hope I never stop learning from other people here.

You are right this forum is a free and open space to post our feelings, and if you see something I post and completely disagree, post it, disagree and tell me why! If we all agreed with each other 100% of the time and never differed on opinion we'd all be part of some crazy cult. And I for one do not care for cults.

[RenaCD]

I definitely disagree with you Kathy You don't look 34 You dam Kids look younger and younger all the time. As for the rest of your reply I can really get my head around all of that.
Thanks Kathy
Big Huggs Rena

[KellyT]

again thank you for all your comments.
As you can see I'm still around. And thanks Kathy for your reply. I really didn't mean to upset anyone. I tend to react quickly to comments and go off in a strop and frequently regret it later.

I'm new to all this ( the discussing it with others, not the crossdressing) and I do find it hard to express all the conflicting thoughts running around in my head, and even more so accept who I am. I thought when I came out to my wife I would find things easier, but instead I have found more conflict in my mind and seem to be unhappy a lot of the time. I don't know why, it's obviously some trait in my personality that I need to figure out. My posts have been a good vent for me to express feelings, whether good or bad, wrong or right. I have never had this opportunity before. I still find it hard to speak to my wife about all this. She is due a baby soon and the impending fatherhood is playing on my mind a lot. Yesterday I packed the limited wardrobe that I have away and was about to give it all to charity. I had it in my head that I couldn't be a supportive father and husband with all these thoughts going through my head.

Anyway, although I initially regretted the posting, i'm glad I did it now as I feel I have cleared some of the many issues in my head.

Hopefully I will be back again soon.

X

[SandraInHose]

Hopefully, we'll put this thread back on subject...

I know exactly what your original post meant and the context of it. I too have had the same thoughts, but mostly with people I'm familiar with, not so much with complete strangers.

I work in an office with a woman whose idea of dressing up for work is to wear a 'clean' T-shirt with her ill-fitting, high-water jeans. She spends no time whatsoever on makeup or hair, doesn't do her nails, or pretty much anything else. The sad thing is, she's not ugly or in bad shape, she just doesn't give a rat's a$$ about her appearance.

I know another lady who could be model, (pretty face, nice hair)...but wears nothing but sweats, and says she even sleeps in them so she won't have to bother getting dressed in the morning.

I just look at these situations as cases of 'unrealized potential', and think to myself as to what I would do if that were me...;)

[Maria D]

Hi Sandra. I'll try a different approach and see if I can make a clear point. (I ramble so I may not ;))

All through my life I have been told that I'm intelligent. This is mainly true, though I lack common sense. I don't mind that.
However, I have also been pushed my whole life to 'make the most of it.' To 'be somebody', to go to university etc. I got asked 'oh why don't you become an optician or something, you could do it and the money's good?'
Well, the simple truth is that I am me and I don't want to. I want the easy life, I'm fairly lazy truth be told, and now I have a job that's easy and away from the public I can transition easily. What I want is for my family to stop badgering me.
See, and here's my point, do I have an OBLIGATION to make the best of myself just because I was BORN with something? Do others have a right to look at me as 'unrealised potential'? Or do I have the right to not be judged, just live my life and be who I want to be?

As an aside, how would you feel if someone looked at you and said 'look at that wasted male potential. All done up in stupid ugly women's clothes, what I'd give to have a man's body like that. I'd be a man's man every day.'?
Fair?

Take care
xxx

[Keri]

I find that some ladies seem only to take great care in "looking really nice" and "appearing feminine" when they're in a "marketing mode". I notice that many a frumpy-while-still-maried lady will, all of a sudden, after her divorce, start once again being concerned about her shape and her wardrobe. Mind you, there are slovenly future-ex-hubands that go through the same phase change when their wives dump them, so this is NOT a gender-specific issue.

Funny ... if spouses only did before their divorces, what they do after them, there'd be a lot fewer divorces. And I don't just mean looks and clothing.

[SandraInHose]

...Do others have a right to look at me as 'unrealised potential'? Or do I have the right to not be judged, just live my life and be who I want to be?[QUOTE]

Yes, people do have the right to their opinion of you, but they should keep it to themselves as you have the right to be left alone.
Here's where I don't agree with you...I'm not trying to change anyone, or telling them I think they should do this or that; my thoughts are simply my observations, and whether I'm talking about a woman's appearance or an athlete's efforts on the field or a politician's speeches, we ALL have our own opinions of 'the way it ought to be'.


[QUOTE=Maria D] As an aside, how would you feel if someone looked at you and said 'look at that wasted male potential. All done up in stupid ugly women's clothes, what I'd give to have a man's body like that. I'd be a man's man every day.'? Fair?

I can't say this one is 'fair', since you're comparing one's activity to another's lifestyle. I might be dressed for a few hours a month...whereas the drab female we're talking about spends her entire life like that. (Besides, my clothes are neither 'stupid' nor 'ugly'! ;) )

PS Your self description sounds very similar to me...possessing good math skills made my family always tell me I should have been an engineer or astro-physicist or something along those lines. I can certainly relate to your situation. Peace.

[RenaCD]

Look Kelly Look what you started, I told you it was a good thread.
So your going to be a father that explains it your Hormones are amuck.
{Quote}=Keri
Funny ... if spouses only did before their divorces, what they do after them, there'd be a lot fewer divorces. And I don't just mean looks and clothing.

Keri~Truer words were never spoken!

Big Huggs To All Rena

[Maria D]

activity[/I] to another's lifestyle. I might be dressed for a few hours a month...whereas the drab female we're talking about spends her entire life like that. (Besides, my clothes are neither 'stupid' nor 'ugly'! ;) )

The drab female might also glam up once a month or so, to go out. Who can say, individuals are just that. The main difference is that 'drab woman' is comfortable with who she is.
('Drab woman'. I quite like that, like 'Piltdown man' hehe)
As to your clothes: ugly, fair enough, but not stupid? The last time I talked to an item of clothing, it could barely keep up with quantum mechanics, let alone string or a unified field theory. Mind you, it made nice coffee, so I forgave it. I can forgive a lot for coffee...

Fair enough about the activity point. Let's say instead that the man in question is in a t-shirt and jeans, same as the woman. The point's still there.

Opinion-wise, yes, you are absolutely entitled to it. My fiancee is always commenting to me that 'she looks terrible' or 'her top doesn't go, tut'. It annoys me because I feel that people shouldn't be judged, especially on appearances. I try extremely hard not to do this, and hope I suceed to some degree.

My appearance is mine, and, though I know everyone I walk past does it, I HATE the idea that I'm being 'sized up, rated, scanned and somehow judged. Either I'm a goth, or I'm a tranny, or an ugly woman, or 'he/she could do better, or 'the makeup is terrible, or a thousand other things. Ironically my fiancee uses a wheelchair sometimes, and she doesn't like the looks she gets. Doesn't stop her commenting on others though. I guess it's a human thing.

Did you give in to your family or stand up and be yourself? Astro-physicist sounds like fun tbh, I certainly don't have the steady hands to be a brain surgeon. Well, not a good one anyway. ;)
xxx