Why is it assumed that a gay bar is cross dresser freindly?

[Jenniferathome]

I often read here that a typical night out means going to a gay bars. The assumption is that somehow, gay people will "understand" a cross dresser. Seems like a reasonable assumption on the surface, but then something in this string http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?220956-Reaching-out-to-gay-male-crossdressers-(-only-those-who-are-gay-should-reply) stuck with me and caused me to question this assumption.

Within the thread above are a few other thread links and more than one gay cross dresser reported that their partner did not like the cross dressing. That some are in DADT situations. Now, THAT actually makes sense but surprised me nonetheless when I first read it. Why should there be any difference in a male or female partner with regards to acceptance of cross dressing?

So, my contention is that gay males are no more or less accepting of a cross dresser than the straights in non-gay bars. Perhaps the only real thing shared is both are minorities in the general public. Does this hypothesis make sense? Have cross dressers across the globe been finding refuge where there is really none?

[Paula_Femme]

I often read here that a typical night out means going to a gay bars. The assumption is that somehow, gay people will "understand" a cross dresser. Seems like a reasonable assumption on the surface... Perhaps the only real thing shared is both are minorities in the general public.

My hope would be that gays, having been on the wrong end of a whole lot of hate and discrimination pretty much for as long as history has been recorded, would look on CD-ers, and others on the TG spectrum, and show a bit of sympathy and understanding. Sadly, Human Nature being what it is, that is not always the case.

[Nadine Spirit]

I agree with your thoughts.

I remember reading about some T's who attended an LGBT event, I think it was in Los Angeles, and they were treated quite poorly by many of the other's in attendance.

[JeanneF]

There's a general assumption that since we're all under the LGBT umbrella that a gay bar is still a much safer place to go out than a straight bar. You're way less likely to get your ass kicked by some douchebag bros at a gay bar.

From personal experience, there are plenty of gay guys who are every bit as transphobic, but they don't tend to lash out violently. I would still recommend to anyone going out dressed for the first time that a gay bar is a good, safe place to spread your wings. Once you're used to that, going to straight bars or just out in public in general becomes less frightening.

[Eryn]

In the few times I've gone to LGBT venues I've never experienced anything unpleasant. I expect to get clocked, though, because people there are looking for the unusual.

One can have a bad experience in any venue, but that is no reason to paint all such venues with a brush of intolerance.

[LelaK]

This says they're tolerant but sometimes misinformed.

http://cdsecretgarden.femmegetaway.com/cdinfospeak.html
The more timid crossdressers often limit themselves to a midnight drive around the city. Their first baby steps out of the closet might be a trip to the ATM machine or a MacDonald's drive-through. The gay community is generally quite tolerant of crossdressers (although often as misinformed as the general public), so many CDs will seek safe haven in "drag bars", nightclubs or lounges which feature shows by Drag Queens.

[Kacey Black.]

I may be new but I can speak from some experience here... not tons, but some.

I don't have the answer really Jennifer, but when I went out for my first time, that's where I chose to go. Why? Perception. Here, and maybe like you up there in ID, there isn't a place for cross dressers, period.

I don't believe for one minute that a gay man understands the cross dresser, in any way shape or form. It's not reasonable to think they would.

The reasoning behind it (for me) was simple. The Gay bar, (or even a lesbian bar, drag shows, whatever)... is a place that is accepting of something other than the norm... and that's attractive when you consider certain options. You aren't the norm, nor am I. Go to bubba's biker beer joint dressed like, well... me (or you) and you may find a problem... thus, the choice. Where do you feel safer?

Now, if you're one that's just "out" and go where you please, the thought of going to such a club may never cross your mind. For me, I like the club atmosphere sometimes and having a drink, dancing sometimes, etc. it's fun. Find one that's more mature and you've hit a place you consider comfortable.

In my trips so far, I find only accepting people that don't really do much. They appear to accept me for me and that's that.

So for me, and perhaps others, it's perceived as a safe zone.

[Barbara Dugan]

I think you can find intolerance at any venue you choose but I still think a Gay bar still is a more friendly place to go unless you choose a Leather one

[Adriana Moretti]

From my experience ( and thats here in the north east ) when I have visited gay bars..most just diddnt care, or couldnt be bothered with crossdressers...and both groups kind of stuck to themselves.....kind of like that awkward birthday party you went to when the host was friends with different cliques in junior high...everyone probably is going to have different experiences around the world i guess. But you are going to find good and bad people wherever you go, I have found you will find more acceptance at these places rather than your local hooters on a Monday Night Football Night... but you always run the risk of someone stepping out of line....i have seen that in public with both cd's and gays and vanilla's all acting a fool towards each other....enough booze will make anyone stupid anywhere.....myself included.

[LelaK]

In August 2011 there was a thread on this forum called:

Do Gays Hate Crossdressers?
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?158677-Do-Gays-Hate-Crossdressers

The following was ReineD's comment. Maybe she'll have an update for us in this thread.

The conclusion I'm drawing from this thread, and also the "how are my gay CDs doing" thread, is that cis people in general, whether gay or straight, understand very little about gender variance.

Even people who experience gender variance have a hard time understanding those who experience a different type of gender variance. LOL.

There's a wide range of acceptance/tolerance among cis people, from those who embrace this in a SO or loved one like I do, to the liberal and politically correct type of acceptance that also has a "not in my backyard" caveat, to mere tolerance whether or not it is polite, to downright disdain.

It is clear though, that no matter where on the above scale a gay man's views might be, he is attracted sexually to other men and not to men who present as women even if he happens to have friends who CD.

[MelanieAnne]

Tolerance and acceptance are two very different things. Gays are probably less likely to assault you. But they are for the most part not welcoming toward crossdressers, and some don't want us horning in on their agenda. Most gays don't want anything to do with women, or those who try to look like women. And many of them probably know most crossdressers are not gay.

[sara.rafaela]

Hi, I have some gay friends. I am not out to them, but some are not to happy about the T being part of the LGBT group. They say it has nothing to do with them. I think the experience at gay bars can vary. Some, you can say are at best gay themed or gay friendly. These have maybe 60-70% straight people in them. The people are there for the techno music, and guest DJ from New York. Faces in Sacramento is one example. I have found gay bars of this type to be without exception very accepting of us. I have also been to some gay bars where there are 100% men, looking for other men. I do not think this would be a welcoming place at all. I do not think anyone would be hostile, you just would be completely ignored there.

[AllieSF]

If I understand correctly there are two parts to your post. One is that between couples and whether the same sex partner would be more accepting of their crossdressing partner than a straight partner's acceptance their partner's dressing in a heterosexual relationship. The other is whether a crossdresser would be more accepted by the patrons in a gay bar versus a straight bar.

I can only speak from my own experience and extrapolate from that. I know and have talked with a few gay male couples where one is a crossdresser. In one relationship one did not like the CDing of the other. In a couple of others, it was a non-issue and basically accepted that it was part of their personality and occasional activities. We never really discussed the details in the latter cases. So I do not know if CDing caused any issues. I personally believe that it would be easier for someone in a gay relationship to accept the crossdressing in their partner, when compared to a straight couple's situation. My reasoning is based on the strangeness/unfamiliarity of not only crossdressing but also of homosexuality in the larger straight world, plus the changed role presentation from the traditional expected role, e.g. the husband needs to be a male in the relationship. Thus the familiar first questions after the big reveal asking if their partner is gay or wants to try being with someone of the same sex, i.e. lack of good knowledge of all this. While in the gay community they already have their overly femme acting members, sometimes identified as "Flamers" as in flaming gay. It is not uncommon for a big buff male to partner up with someone with more feminine attributes. There are many variations on this that I have seen. Aspects and characteristics of a crossdresser can also show up in non-crossdressing gays. However, that being said, I have also met some that want nothing to do with crossdressing in someone they would date or partner up with. So, as in the straight world, some can live with it and others can not.

In regard to gays and lesbians accepting crossdressers into their bars and casual community there, I have been dressed at gay/lesbian bars in Detroit, Michigan, Oakland, and San Francisco, California and interacted with some of the people in those locations. I have never been treated in any way shape or form with disrespect. Just the opposite, I have been treated like any other human being in the bar, and have developed a type of casual friendship type of acquaintance, where we share sometimes personal issues that we are trying to deal with. These are conversations that they don't have with everyone. I have been with many other CD's, some first time out newbies, and they were always treated the same as I was. That does not mean that 100% of the patrons are happy that we are there, but after over 8 years of frequenting these places, I have yet to see that reaction. I think that gay bars are a somewhat more accepting venue than some straight bars for crossdressers. One reason is similar to what I said above, they have already seen parts of our personalities in some femme acting non-crossdressing gay people. It is not totally new to them to see one or more of us. I have had several gay men on more than one occasion tell me that they do not understand why we dress as the opposite gender. Their questions coming more from curiosity than disapproval. Now my experience comes from already accepting locations (SF Bay Area and Las Vegas) and venues (gay/lesbian bars that have drag shows and accommodate and want TG patrons) and I cannot speak for those gay/lesbian bars that hardly ever see any crossdressers, or may be in a very conservative part of the country. However, from what I have read from other posts and threads on this site the number of negative reactions to CD's in gay/lesbian bars is rare, not just uncommon, like maybe 5 negatives to 95 positives. That in itself is a good reason to try a local gay bar. Also note that even when one small group may be negative, what about the rest of the people in the bar? That is just another example of sometimes shit happens even in places where you do not expect it. Another correlation is that most middle age to older gays were at one time in the closet and can appreciate the need for some of us TG's to look for a safe haven off the beaten and more popular straight venue paths.

[DorothyElizabeth]

I have both male and female friends who are same-sex oriented. My experience has been that the women are more accepting of my cross dressing than the men, but I have to admit, from a statistical standpoint, my sampling size is too small to be of any value.

[Leslie Langford]

Jennifer raises a good point, and there is much empirical evidence to support her thesis. Let's not forget that the "T" in "LGBT" was only added on as an afterthought for inclusion into that community, and has only been part of this acronym for a scant number of years now. Furthermore, not only are most most actual drag queens gay, they usually make a point of avowing that dressing up in female clothing does nothing for them, and that doing drag is just a "job" the way they describe it. Curious then, that many of them are so d*mn good at it.

And to Nadine's point - here in Toronto (home of one of the largest annual Gay Pride parades anywhere, and site of the 2014 international World Pride gathering), the organizers of the parade have given the "T" community the cold shoulder for a number of years now, putting so many obstacles (lack of adequate funding is the usual excuse) in their way that the latter is now going its own way and organizing its own activities independently of the larger organization because it refuses to be marginalized even further - and especially by a supposed ally.

Of course, the supreme irony (and injustice) here was that with respect to the 1969 Stonewall riots - which proved to be pivotal point in the struggle for the rights of gays and lesbians - trans folks were in the vanguard of the protests, and by some accounts their initial push-back on systematic police harassment acted as the trigger for the ensuing events.

[Adriana Moretti]

1969 Stonewall riots - which proved to be pivotal point in the struggle for the rights of gays and lesbians - trans folks were in the vanguard of the protests, and by some accounts their initial push-back on systematic police harassment acted as the trigger for the ensuing events.

Leslie speaks The truth....that is why this place is still a historic landmark here in NY.......if anyone EVER comes to NY .....visit here..... birthplace of GAY rights...... also one of the birthplaces of disco music pre bee-gee's ...every thurs there is a tg group that meets there at 7 pm then they walk a few doors down to Monster......another gay friendly DANCE club

http://www.thestonewallinnnyc.com/StonewallInnNYC/HOME.html

[Jenniferathome]

...Thus the familiar first questions after the big reveal asking if their partner is gay ...

Hi Allie, your first point is correct but it was idea 1 that got me thinking about idea two, so it's kinda related.

the quote I grabbed above is because it never struck me about the conversation between ska sex partners. I can just imagine this response from the spouse being told, "Are you straight?!" Too funny this cross dressing thing.

[ReineD]

I agree. But, we did feel safer at gay bars when we started to go out years ago because we imagined that people in the mainstream would be after us with pitchforks. lol

The truth is, people are polite when spoken to and they do keep their opinions to themselves whether in the mainstream or in a gay bar, so it's all the same.

On a slight tangent, my SO and I just got back from a trip to New Orleans. My SO didn't feel like expressing her femininity on this trip so we were in guy mode the entire time. Part of the reason for leaving the girl stuff at home was being unfamiliar with the bar/drinking culture on Bourbon St and not really knowing where to go. We've found it is generally unwise to dress in heavy drinking areas and we were staying in the French Quarter. But one night we walked by a club that advertised Drag Shows. There was a young, beautifully dressed, coiffed, and made-up DQ at the door (really gorgeous looking) and I explained that my SO is TG but we were unsure of the tolerance for this in the area and asked what the general mindset might be among the patrons. The young DQ at the door told me that he had no idea, since he identified as a gay male and didn't really know anyone in the TG community.

I thanked him, but as we were leaving I once again wondered why gay males who identify as male and who are attracted to men who are attracted to other men, enjoy presenting as sexy women yet they don't "get" TGs/CDs. I'm embarrassed to say that I googled it when we got back to the hotel, but was not enlightened by any of the search results. lol.

[donnalee]

About the only conclusion that can be drawn from all this is that people vary in their prejudices as in most other things and logic has little to do with it, so watch your back (or have someone you trust completely do it for you).

[Vickie_CDTV]

I think they are more "tolerant" (more likely to leave you alone if they know you are trans) of those who are different, trans included. It doesn't mean the gays and lesbians at gay bars are more "understanding" of TV/TSism than cisgender folks.

[Princess Chantal]

True it is a false assumption that a gay or lesbian establishment would be more accepting. However thanks to this false assumption the gay and lesbian establishment have had more exposure to crossdressing and are less likely to have a knee jerk reaction.

[Kate Simmons]

I never assume anyone is friendly myself. When it comes to an establishment, however, we should expect them to at least be cordial to us since we are a paying customer.:)

[I Am Paula]

While going into a straight bar might get you a BAD reaction (violent, or verbal), going into a gay bar may be friendly, or indifferent. If the clientele choses not to be exactly friendly, at least they will just ignore you. From going to gay bars for thirty years, from drab, to drag queen, to garden variety trans woman, I've only encountered grief from a few lesbians. The ugliest thing one ever said to me was, in standing in line for the lady's room "You could go next door, I'm sure there's a urinal free". Ouch!!
IMHO, yes, you can walk into a gay bar unannounced, and assume it will be safe haven, but they may not love you.

[Rogina B]

I think you can find intolerance at any venue you choose but I still think a Gay bar still is a more friendly place to go unless you choose a Leather one

The different"lifestyles" all have their own crowds with it's own drama. Some places have different nights for different lifestyles and there may be better nights for making new friends than others..Bears can be just as cold as the leather crowd but they usually aren't so physical! lol Lesbian bars can have the "tough crowd" or the softer crowd.... I think a TG person is safe at most mainstream decent places if they behave. Sport's bars are usually too testosterone charged and no place for the socially inexperienced. Looking your blendable best,having confidence in your self and accepting that all people may not be warm to you,is key to going anywhere. A thick skin helps a lot ,also!

[kimdl93]

The test of a hypothesis is real life experience. In my incredibly small sample of Houston gay bars 100% were found to be fully accepting. I couldn't conduct a comprehensive survey of gay patrons, but those I met were equally so.

Are there unaccepting gay males...sure, but in my again limited experience, I would say the proportion is smaller than the general population.

[Judith96a]

Maybe I'm odd (or just more odd than the rest of us) but I wouldn't necessarily perceive a 'gay' bar (by which I mean a bar that predominantly caters for gay males) as being any safer than a 'straight' bar. In fact, I might be less comfortable there than in a 'straight' bar, simply because in the sort of 'gay' bar to which I refer there will be proportionately fewer women (if any at all)! (I've never really been comfortable in the company of men who have been drinking)

I have been to one particular lesbian bar in London on several occasions and have always felt comfortable there. The door policy is effectively "No men, unless accompanying and vouched for by a woman" (they don't quite insist on men being on a lead and muzzled!) However, their attitude to cross dressing males appears to be "OK, we know that you're really a fella but you're doing your best to look like a woman. So...we'll play along so long as you behave appropriately - no escort required". I can live with that!

[Princess Chantal]

Like Kim, all my experiences with the gay themed establishments in Winnipeg, Providence and Boston have been 100% acceptable/tolerant of my tg friends and I. Matter have fact the Winnipeg establishments were more of 100% welcoming of us. Two of them even offered to open their doors (on a night when they usually were closed) for the Masquerade group to use as our monthly meetings.
Then on the other hand I haven't had issues at heteronormal clubs either. Will be at a sports bar for an event this Saturday in which a few of us would be crossdressed for it.

[Melissa Rose]

It is an assumption that all LGBT establishments welcome all in the T community. As others have stated or alluded to, generally speaking, the patrons of most gay bars and clubs tend to be more tolerant than those in designated non-LGBT establishments, but it is not universal. For example, there are some lesbian bars where any man of any sexual orientation, cross dressed or not, are rarely welcomed. While not all patrons in gay bars and clubs are friendly, tolerant and/or accepting to those in the T community, it is more likely to be the case. Some assume tolerance means acceptance or understanding, but they are not the same.

While we are dancing around the subject of assumptions, another one, IMHO, is the concept of TG-friendly establishments. Places or stores are not TG-friendly - it is the people in them including the customers. While some companies have stronger LGBT policies, there are reports of good and bad experiences in the exact same places. Just as for gay bars and clubs, it is more about the employees and customers in a place at any given time than the actual place.

[TerriM]

I have been going out dressed for over 30 years. I have been to a number of gay and lesbian bars. Some bars are friendlier than others, but thats the same as going to any bar when dressed as a male. I think the general attitude of most gays towards the TG community is one of tolerance. I remember years ago I attended a event called the Long Island Drag Invasion. It was a charity event and it was a bus filled with us girls and we went to a bunch of gay bars and solicited money for the charity, which I think was something for AIDS related. It was a riot. At one bar I got into a very nice conversation with a younger gay male. We both told each other when we realized we were gay or a TG. When I recall that story I remember us both feeling that we weren't that much different from each other in many ways. I think that's how attitudes change when people talk to each other.

[CONSUELO]

My experience has been mixed. I have known many gays who are accepting of cross dressers but I have also encountered some who are virulently anti-cross dressers. If you look at internet sites for gay bath houses you will be struck by rules that disallow cross dressing. I have been to a very pleasant gay bath house in San Jose, CA that will not allow any cross dressing in public areas, though you are free to dress in your room.

[Seana Summer]

There's a general assumption that since we're all under the LGBT umbrella

This is an assumption that I think is quite common. We all are tolerant of each other because we are all under the rainbow flag.

I think Crossdressers are the least understood and least tolerated group of all. Anywhere!!

Heck there are days we don't even tolerate each other!!! Reference some of the "Man in a dress" discussions and discussions on "putting effort" into presentation and ability to pass. Some in the past on this board but also others.

For some reason the Dr. Seuss book on the star bellied creatures comes to mind.

For me the bottom line is --If your going out, know where you are going!! Do your homework and scout it out first. I have been treated well, and not so well, and sometimes it has really surprised me by who.

[Ressie]

I like this thread because I've only been in one gay bar. Hearing experiences from other members is enlightening. Melissa Rose's post (along with others) makes sense.

[katieh]

I try to visit a bar first in my male persona and try to get a feel for the place. A good tip and a polite conversation with a bartender will usually help out. When dressed I have been completely ignored, questioned about my dressing or hit on (after gently explaining I am happily married and not looking; you may be ignored) I don't recall any threating experiences. Most of the time people are really nice and you can relax and have a good time.

[StarrOfDelite]

I think you can find intolerance at any venue you choose but I still think a Gay bar still is a more friendly place to go unless you choose a Leather one

Totally on point the with both of your comments.

I hate to generalize, but the types of men who go to Gay Leather bars are interested in "Manly Men" not men in women's clothes. There is a leather bar about 2 miles from my home which has more motorcycles outside it on Friday night than the local chapter house of the Hells Angels. I doubt that I would be very welcome there.

On the other hand, the more sophisticated type of Gay bar usually is pretty much either Trans friendly, or Trans indifferent. Either one is fine by me.

I was also struck by Judith96a's comments about not being comfortable being in a gay bar when one might be the only woman, trans or genetic, in the entire place, and about going to Lesbian bars. I remember one night when I went to an alternative bar on its monthly Lesbian Night, and everything was cool, and I had some interesting conversations with the other patrons. They were very curious about my lifestyle and my motivations.

[Lorileah]

Never assume a gay bar will be anymore transfriendly than any other business. Here in Denver we have a bar that proved the point. As with most "communities" the gay community has sub-sets. In this case "Bears". Now I know T's who like bears. I know bears who like T's but at this bar the owners made a conscious decision not to allow T's in. They did this by making a rule, that technically was in accordance to written law but is really not enforceable (Many people change appearance over time). http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/09/18/1239653/-Wrangler-Bar-in-Denver-You-must-have-your-appearance-matching-your-ID# But in the Denver area there are probably 20 "gay" bars. Out of those maybe half actively allow T's. All but the one above will tolerate a T but it isn't much fun just being tolerated.

Best bet is to talk to the trans people in your area. Now on top of all that I have friends who go dancing at "straight" clubs all the time. But that is Denver, where they pretty much let you do what you want as long as it isn't illegal. Oh and I have been asked to go to a leather bar. You just should know someone there (besides why can't a T be into leather?)

[sherri]

No need for theorizing or hypothesizing -- a little search of these archives or a few evenings out will answer your questions pretty quick. We gravitate to gay environments because -- keeping in mind I'm painting with broad strokes here and there are exceptions to all of the following --

Gays (i,e, gays/lesbians) are used to flaunting convention and are not shocked or disturbed by gender bending.
While not all that accepting, gays do tolerate tgs in their midst.
Those of us who normally function in the straight world run less risk of bumping into someone we know in gay venues.
Gays are familiar with prejudice and tend to be more discrete and protective of "the big secret" outside their own culture.

The notion of acceptance warrants clarification. Ime, gays are generally accepting of our right to be tg, but not so accepting of us as potential partners or close friends. I've had numerous gays and lesbians tell me straight up they do not understand crossdressing or transgender. Frankly, they're not all that comfortable with bi-sexuality either. My conclusion is gays prefer black and white just as much as straights do. I think lesbians are a little more open and embracing than gays, at least at the casual level.

That said, it is possible to "earn" some degree of acceptance within a local gay community if you're willing to put in the time and effort and are outgoing enough. It took me a long time, but that was mostly my fault for being such a shrinking violet. But that acceptance doesn't usually extend beyond the club, if you know what I mean. I call these "bar friends", and in 15 years of circulating in the local gay comm, only once have I been embraced into personal lives and activities -- by a small group of close gay friends. We had some nice times but it sorta went away when the group disintegrated (gays do love their drama, dontcha know).

One more thought about acceptance: I believe one big reason why gays keep their distance is due to being uncomfortable in the company of cders out in public. Lots of gays are still in the closet to some degree, and even those who are openly "out" aren't advertising their orientation in public the way a crossdresser does. I mean, to them we're like neon signs. Ironically, gays and lesbians I've made friends with seem to communicate in subtle ways that they think if this is who I am I should own it. They seemed puzzled that I hide my gender identity from family and friends, or shy away from some environments/venues. I don't think they respect hedging the bet, so to speak.

Oh, btw -- I want to note that in 15 years of going out, I've done 99% of it by myself, and here locally, 9 times out of 10 I've been the only mtf TG in the club or wherever. Fwiw. But in the lesbian bars, I've always been of the opinion there are lots of cders there if you count the butch lesbians. I mean, those gals are working the guy thing pretty hard, if you know what I mean.

[samantha rogers]

From my experience, I have found gay bars totally tolerant and accepting. Having said that, it is one thing to be tolerant, and quite another to be interested. I have found interest from gay guys to be all over the map, as might be expected. Some are totally put off though polite. Others are friendly and fun, and others actually will come on to you (so be prepared). Its a mixed bag. But, as others have said, the key difference is the level of acceptance and lack of threat of attack in contrast to straight venues.
Just anecdotally, I was at a gay bar once with a couple of friends. I needed to use the loo, and came to discover that both rooms normally had the doors propped open and no internal latch. Quite gallantly, witnessing my trepidation, one of the larger guys stepped forward, unpropped the door so I could close it, and then stood guard outside while I took care of things. He was so sweet. A real gentleman.

[CONSUELO]

Once stopped in a very interesting bar/restaurant in San Francisco while on the way home from work with colleagues. We had been intrigued by this place for some time and it had a French name and looked like a little restaurant. So, one evening at around 5:30 we stopped for a drink. The back room was filled with guys dressed in leather and military clothing and although we stayed by the bar and did not intrude we got a lot of "hard" looks. Clearly we were not welcome.
On another occasion I was at a bar in the Castro and a woman and man were at the bar deep in conversation when a tough looking man came up and told her that she was not welcome in that place. I thought that very rude especially as the conversation seemed to be about her brother who I guess was gay and they were just talking to one another.

If a group of people ask for tolerance and understanding of their lifestyle, shouldn't they practice tolerance and understanding too?

[DonnaT]

Because experiences of others that have been discussed usually are positive experiences, and because many gay bars have ongoing drag shows, which would make the place appear to be T friendly to some degree.

One I use to go to even advertised a special night for the trans community.

["Gabriela"]

I guess it depends on the kind of people that go to the place. If it's a so called LGBT place, then the people should understand that giving hard looks to a TG person is not good.

[Ceera]

Long before I ever started cross dressing, more than thirty years ago, when I was still in my 20's, I would occasionally go to a gay/lesbian bar. I was 'functionally straight', but knew that I was bisexually inclined. I'd had a few gay encounters that were pleasurable, even though I was trying very hard to 'play it straight', for fear of the reactions of family and friends. I'd go there just for a drink and to people watch, and not try to pick anyone up.

I'd go as a male, whether it was a place hosting male strippers and packed with men, or if it was a posted 'girls night' where the venue was mostly lesbians. I enjoyed watching everyone, but didn't gawk or stare. I also wasn't trying really to chat anyone up, of either gender. I was polite to others if spoken to, they were polite to me in return, and I had a pleasant night of it, without anyone hitting on me or being disrespectful of me being there.

Thirty years later, widowed after being in a straight monogamous marriage for 30 years, and not going to gay bars at all while I was married, I decided to explore my 'feminine impulses' and try cross dressing. The advice on-line was, as others have said, that in general a gay bar was a safe bet for a first outing as a CD, especially if the venue hosted drag shows. Local reviews also indicated that the gay bars in my town were likely to be the most lively after 11PM or so.

I checked the reviews for several gay clubs in my home town, and found one in particular that had a drag show every Saturday night. It was also convenient to my neighborhood, and wouldn't require me to be 'out' in a downtown area where I would have to encounter a lot of straight people while dressed.

It was the first place I went 'out' as a woman, and I found it a very friendly and accepting place. The staff greeted me with friendly smiles and welcomed me. At close to midnight on a Saturday, the place was quite crowded, and the drag review was just ending on the dance floor. It was an ethnically mixed crowd - blacks, whites and Hispanics primarily, matching the general neighborhood mix for the East side of my town. At a guess I would say it was about 60% men dressed as men, 25% males in drag, and 15% actual women, with most of the real women fairly obvious lesbians, or bisexual in their activities. I went back on other nights, when they wasn't a drag show, and found the mix to have slightly more lesbian or bisexual women on those nights, and fewer gay males or CD's. Say about 55% gay males, 40% lesbian or bi women, and 5% cross dressers.

Some of the patrons look past me or ignore me. I'm not what they're looking for, and that's fine. But most are friendly, and I usually get to dance with people of both birth genders, and I've had both end up buying me drinks and spending part of my evening with me. I've usually had no issues with asking someone of either gender to dance with me. In six months of going there, I've only once been addressed as a male when presenting as female, and that was by someone who was new to the venue, and who didn't know any better. Everyone else has treated me as a female, even though I'm certain most of them clocked me.

Now I will admit, some of the people that I encounter at that club aren't clear on the differences between a drag queen and a cross dresser or a transgendered individual, even when they're friendly. One lesbian girl who loved my outfit and how I was presenting and who invited me to join her and her girlfriends for the evening couldn't quite understand that I wasn't that interested in doing exaggerated makeup and lip synching to a female voice track while dancing for the crowd. :)

Are other places or certain individuals less tolerant and accepting? Probably. But I'd still say that a 'gay bar' that hosts drag shows is a safe place for CD/TG people to hang out.

[Jodi]

I tend to agree with LisaK on her comment about safety. Certain gay men might not like or understand a trans person, but generally, gay men will not react with violence.

Jodi



There's a general assumption that since we're all under the LGBT umbrella that a gay bar is still a much safer place to go out than a straight bar. You're way less likely to get your ass kicked by some douchebag bros at a gay bar.

From personal experience, there are plenty of gay guys who are every bit as transphobic, but they don't tend to lash out violently. I would still recommend to anyone going out dressed for the first time that a gay bar is a good, safe place to spread your wings. Once you're used to that, going to straight bars or just out in public in general becomes less frightening.

[NicoleScott]

Maybe it's not a matter of how gay/lesbian people feel about CDers, but how businesses see them as potential customers. The club I went to was known mainly as a lesbian hangout, but there were all kinds there. It had special events on given days (drag queen Tuesday, karaoke Wednesday,, drag king Thursday...), designed, I'm sure, to bring in customers. I'm sure the business wouldn't appreciate mistreatment of their customers.
I noticed that there was a lot of light to moderate displays of affection (hand-holding, hugging, kissing...) between same-sex partners, activities that the participants might not feel as permissible to do at the Red Lobster bar. In a similar way, I felt more comfortable as a crossdresser going to a place I viewed as more tolerant of diversity, and I didn't mind that I was seen as a [quite obvious] crossdresser. No problems. I had a great time the several times I went.

[StephanieinSecret]

I don't go out to bars dressed, but I've been to gay bars and there's definitely a different feel to each place, just as there would be anywhere else. Common sense is all that's needed.

From my experience, most gay guys aren't into CD's very much. They are gay because they like masculinity, so minimizing those features is unattractive or uninteresting. I think that we CDs are part of a group of people of all orientations who enjoy genderbending. Since that involves elements of both male and female presentation, I must wonder if there aren't more bisexual or bi-curious CDs than it seems.

All of that is just theory, though. I don't know any of it for sure.

[Lori Kurtz]

There's such diversity in human experience that I can't justify generalizing from any isolated experience. But here is one more piece of data to throw into the discussion. Years ago, I had a conversation with a couple of older gay friends who didn't (and still don't) know about my CDing, and who had been together for many years, and who had lived though a lot of gay history. They had negative feelings toward straight CDers, because they felt that the general public thinks crossdressing is sick and weird, and that the general public associates crossdressing with gayness. My friends' feeling was that, because of that, crossdressers give the general public just one more reason to hate gay people. And they felt that crossdressing is a completely optional activity, so why do crossdressers choose to cause embarrassment and trouble for themselves and for gay people? I'm not proud that, because I was (and still am) deeply closeted, I was not able to help them understand anything about what crossdressing is all about for people like me and many of the other people here. My friends are not openly hostile toward CDers, but I suspect that they are not the only gays who have those attitudes. And maybe that is part of the explanation for why some gay bars might be less welcome environments for CDers than others.

[PaulaQ]

At least in Dallas, you are safer in the gay or lesbian bars. In some cases a lot safer. My roommate, who's visibly trans, has been assaulted in parts of North Dallas / Plano / Frisco. Down here in the gayborhood, she's fine. In fact, she's had a guy recently come to her defense down here when a homeless guy who was belligerent and trying to take her money. (Her defender owned the local gay leather bar, turns out.)

Look, no place is perfectly safe - crimes happen down here in rainbow land. Some people come down here looking for trouble - although that doesn't happen much because the DPD take a really dim view of this.

The gay community, if nothing else, has drag culture, and so cross dressing is accepted in that context, and lots of gay folks may not understand that there are hetero CDs, but they do mostly at least know that transitioning trans people exist, and generally show respect in my experience.

[Taylor Ray]

My experience is that my gay friends think crossdressing is "weird" and they are not into it.

[Dianne S]

I have a transgender friend who likes going to gay bars. She has a girlfriend and likes the fact that guys at gay bars won't hit on her if she's presenting as a female. In her experience, she finds gays less judgemental because they are familiar with being an oppressed minority.

I've had very little experience either way; I went to a lesbian bar once; the bartenders were friendly and everyone else ignored me and my friends.

[PaulaQ]

Oh wait - I know! Perhaps the confusion at hand is caused by a misunderstanding of the word "friendly?"

The phrase "gay bars are cross dresser friendly" really means you are significantly less likely to be beaten up, ridiculed, or tossed out on your ear for showing up CDed at the gay bar than in most straight bars. So in this context "friendly" really means "significantly less likely to be beaten up, ridiculed, or tossed out."

It does not mean that you'll get a reaction like "Dayum girl! You look fabulous in those heels!", although that can happen. That would be another type of friendly.

[Katey888]

Two parts to the OP...

Gay CDers having unapproving partners... I think I can understand that. Like many of you here I've read and absorbed much of the discussion regarding partners attitudes, including the obvious one where some GG SOs will probably never accept that CDing is driven by a GENDER flexibility and not necessarily a SEXUAL one. In that context I can conceive of intolerance in either gender and of any sexuality. :)

The other part is:
"Why is it assumed that a gay bar is cross dresser friendly?"
and
"..my contention is that gay males are no more or less accepting of a cross dresser than the straights in non-gay bars. "
but those two statements are not aligned.
The first relates to a statement of POLICY regarding a gay bar (by which I assume you mean any LGB friendly venue) which would tend to mean that the management actively promotes tolerance and trains its staff accordingly. In those circumstances I would expect a venue to be more accommodating of the unconventional way we present even if it didn't embrace the 'T' part of the community, as many venues actively do. I would be less likely to think that a gay bar of male-only policy would be as tolerant, but I see no reason that they would not be safe, but it would not be my choice.
The second relates to clientele, and I have no reason to argue with this point, other than to say that even if they were less tolerant, the policies of the venue would be what reassured me that I would be accepted. I'd also expect security to be more pro-active than normal club venues, particularly with respect to any intolerance.

I think we're also missing one major point here: that related to the sexuality of CDers. Not many seem to define as gay, but a large number - possibly a majority - do define as bisexual or bi-curious, and presumably that would put them quite sensibly in the LGB camp, regardless of how they present? That would seem to make gay/LGB venues as quite valid for those CDers, and so presumably safe and tolerant for hetero-CDers, because who can tell by looking at us? :)

Katey x

[justmetoo]

Not being a drinker or a person into the bar scene I haven't been to any bars myself. I've wondered about similar things to the OP. Why do people who are reluctant to go to areas frequented by the general public feel safer going to gay bars. I always figured whatever works for each individual is fine and to each their own. I prefer to go out during the day to places like malls, museums, restaurants (if I have someone to share a meal with), and the like. That's what works for me.
I wouldn't expect gay bars to be automatically or categorically friendlier than straight bars. I would think it would depend a lot on the individual bar and their usual clientele.

[Ceera]

Oh wait - I know! Perhaps the confusion at hand is caused by a misunderstanding of the word "friendly?"

The phrase "gay bars are cross dresser friendly" really means you are significantly less likely to be beaten up, ridiculed, or tossed out on your ear for showing up CDed at the gay bar than in most straight bars. So in this context "friendly" really means "significantly less likely to be beaten up, ridiculed, or tossed out."

It does not mean that you'll get a reaction like "Dayum girl! You look fabulous in those heels!", although that can happen. That would be another type of friendly.Actually, at the gay club that I prefer to frequent, I get exactly that reaction, on a regular basis, from both the male and female patrons at the club!

[alwayshave]

I have been to one particular lesbian bar in London on several occasions and have always felt comfortable there. The door policy is effectively "No men, unless accompanying and vouched for by a woman" (they don't quite insist on men being on a lead and muzzled!) However, their attitude to cross dressing males appears to be "OK, we know that you're really a fella but you're doing your best to look like a woman. So...we'll play along so long as you behave appropriately - no escort required". I can live with that!

I am originally from Massachusetts where lesbians hate men more than any hate group hates their victim group. A crossdressing mft will be victimized in a lesbian bar because they are not naturally a woman. I had one lesbian tell me that crossdressers are making fun of women and should be punished for such behavoir. My experience with this group has not been positive.

[Ressie]

And they felt that crossdressing is a completely optional activity, so why do crossdressers choose to cause embarrassment and trouble for themselves and for gay people?

I guess it's optional whether or not we come out of the closet, same for gays. I don't know any CDs that chose this. We were either born with it, or it's the result of something that happened in early childhood.


crossdressers are making fun of women and should be punished for such behavoir

Unbelievably ignorant - both quotes above. Our intersex sisters physically manifest that there is something to being born in a gray area, concerning gender.

[Rogina B]

Alwayshave,There are hard core penis hating lesbians out there for sure,but there are also the softer ones.Same goes for the guys...A slap em beat em leather bar crowd is the opposite of the "patron of the arts" male gay crowd. On a side note,"Bears" are the most closeted group of gays possible!! They "just never seem to find the right girl to date" according to their parents! [who haven't a clue!]

[missVS]

I have frequented a few clubs here lately and in Dallas. I have had great times met nice people and have had no issues in gay friendly places. Here the club I frequent always has a few crossdressers there beside me and it seems nobody cares there your just another face in the crowd. I even met a very nice gay man I talked to for a while and always do when I go so from my personal experiences it is a much better place to hang out have fun dance drink watch music videos etc than a straight nightclub. It is wrong in my opinion and from experience to say that this is just an illusion or a false perception that its safer in these places. In this town it is definitely better safer more interesting and definitely a mixture of interesting characters.
I am serious crossdresser and I do not feel I was born with it and did not have something happen to me in childhood. I do it because I like it and it feels wonderful to me. It is somewhat of a choice for me and I choose to do it.

[Eleonore]

I've always wanted to be able to enter a bar fully dressed. Actually, since I've been DJ for many many years my secret dream is to work in a bar as Drag Dj or something like that.....shall I keep dreaming?

[funtimesinheels]

I've always wanted to be able to enter a bar fully dressed. Actually, since I've been DJ for many many years my secret dream is to work in a bar as Drag Dj or something like that.....shall I keep dreaming?

That is too funny! I was a dj for 16 years and always dreamt of djing in full dress! Still do! For years I thought i was the only one! Good to know I'm not alone! Lol

Jenna

[MelanieAnne]

That is too funny! I was a dj for 16 years and always dreamt of djing in full dress! Still do! For years I thought i was the only one! Good to know I'm not alone! Lol

A DJ for 32 years here. Made a nice living at it. Never had any desire to DJ en fem. Always kept it separate from my work. Saw a few CDs at our singles dances over the years. Nobody bothered them. Some of the men would dare each other to ask the CD to dance. One guy didn't know the "lady" he asked to dance was a CD, until the other guys told him. His face got red and he left. One "lady" looked really hot, I have to say.

[AmyGaleRT]

It really depends on the venue. In Denver, most "gay bars" are trans-friendly. I saw a list online of the top gay bars in Denver, and I realized I'd been to the first four on the list! (Tracks, the Black Crown, Charlie's, and the Aqua Lounge)

However, there is one gay bar in Denver that is noted for its unfriendliness to transwomen...probably because it caters to "bears," or the really hyper-masculine kind of gay men. It's been so bad that there have actually been complaints to the Colorado Civil Rights Commission. Of course, given its clientele, it's unlikely I'd be interested in going there anyway...

Really, Denver is a very "open city" for trans people; we can go pretty much anywhere.

- Amy

[SusanaO]

Probably been said already, but:

Because it is assumed gay people are open-minded. However, gender identity and sexual orientation need not be related (almost always isn't). I've personally witnessed gay men talking down on transgendered people. Likewise, I've read comments from CD's that seem a bit homophobic (e.g. "I love dressing as a woman because I love women, but two guys together is just gross.").

But, I'd say choosing a gay bar over a "regular" bar has a better probability of being accepting.

[Judith96a]

I am originally from Massachusetts where lesbians hate men more than any hate group hates their victim group. A crossdressing mft will be victimized in a lesbian bar because they are not naturally a woman. I had one lesbian tell me that crossdressers are making fun of women and should be punished for such behavoir. My experience with this group has not been positive.

Just goes to show that for any 'label' what happens in one bar tells you absolutely nothing about what might happen in any other bar with the same label!

The moral, especially for those who may be visiting an unfamiliar area? Assume nothing, ask the local TG community!

[sabrinaedwards]

I have been to a good number of gay bars, but one thing that I always do is to contact the place prior to going there dressed. I telephone and ask if they are friendly to patrons who are crossdressed. Usually they are and I have not had a negative experience while using this mode of operation. Recently I went to a place that was new to me. I contacted the place and they said that there was no issue. When I arrived there were a lot of people there. I identified my self to one of the staff and she sat with me for a time. I had a positive experience there. Planning and preparation helps to alleviate issues.

[Lexi Moralas]

I ve been to a couple regular gay bars that don't advertise "T -friendly " and got a luke warm reception. Better than if I walked into a sports bar. But nothing special. But I would prefer an openly T friendly place like brass rail , triangles or ( rip ) cedar brook.
On the flip side I recently read an article
About people In the T community insulted by a trend of none CD gay men taking to dressing solely for the opportunity to hook up with young attractive men that would otherwise be out of there league.
It was an interesting point of view.

[Ressie]

I am serious crossdresser and I do not feel I was born with it and did not have something happen to me in childhood. I do it because I like it and it feels wonderful to me. It is somewhat of a choice for me and I choose to do it.

Could be, but do you remember everything that happened to you between ages 0 and 3? Some moms like to see what their baby looks like in an article of their sister's clothing.

[Eleonore]

That is too funny! I was a dj for 16 years and always dreamt of djing in full dress! Still do! For years I thought i was the only one! Good to know I'm not alone! Lol

Jenna

Do we really think it's just coincidence that CD + DJ become CDJ the most used word in DJ world nowadays? :) :) :)

[MelanieAnne]

Whether you are tolerated or accepted, I do believe you are less likely to be bothered, harassed, or beat up in a gay bar. Personally, I don't care if they accept me or not, as long as they don't bother me.

[sometimes_miss]

From personal experience, there are plenty of gay guys who are every bit as transphobic, but they don't tend to lash out violently. I would still recommend to anyone going out dressed for the first time that a gay bar is a good, safe place to spread your wings.
Just don't forget, that if you're going to a gay bar, dressed as a female, there will be a natural assumption by those who are there, that YOU are also gay, and don't be surprised when you get not so kind comments when guys there hit on you and you then try to explain to them that you're straight.

[NicoleScott]

I have been to a good number of gay bars, but one thing that I always do is to contact the place prior to going there dressed. I telephone and ask if they are friendly to patrons who are crossdressed.

Since the experiences of those that responded are varied, Sabrina's advice is best. If you aren't sure, call first. I went (in guy mode) in the afternoon to a club I had never been to, and asked all the pertinent questions (crossdressers welcome: yes; restroom: either; etc.). So I went. no problems. And no need to make assumptions.
One big clue that the club was cd-friendly is that they had drag queen and drag king shows on certain days. But I still made no assumptions and inquired.

[Joni Beauman]

I have tried both gay and straightish bars. Always alone, so without any honest feedback, I always think I pass - for about a minute. Then the bartender gives that involuntary smirk. That's about it. If you can endure that...sigh. Joni

[Krisi]

"Why is it assumed that a gay bar is cross dresser freindly? "

I don't assume that. I can only guess that most people think crossdressers are gay so that's where we would fit in best.

[Pat]

There are gay bars and gay bars, if you know what I mean... there are some hard-core, men-only gay bars I wouldn't step into and there are LGBT bars that are wonderful, welcoming places. You gotta know your crowd; you gotta sense the room. Bars being businesses, most gay bars are open to all the LGBT spectrum because we all buy drinks and that's probably why there's a perception of "gay bars" being a safe haven. But even in friendly bars there are often corners where there's a "territory" staked out. Know your crowd; sense the room.

[kkaye]

I could have told you about the lesbian crowd. These women are in a class by themselves and do not meld with no other crowd. Then there are the draq queens that are vocal, in your face, judgmental, in your face, I avoid. It's been said in this thread. Check it out first please. I found that on line searches will find places in some towns that are specific about being CD friendly, and offer event calendars like here in Houston.

[ReineD]

I find that gay bars in general are more click-ish than regular bars but this depends on the area too. It most always seems as if everyone knows each other, or there are large groups of friends who hang out there. This is likely because the community in general is small and there aren't that many gay bars in any given area?

[mechamoose]

CD is NOT the same as DQ.

DQs are usually a character. CDs are usually being themselves, and are terrified.

Gay males are males who like other males. Our community are folks who are not comfortable in their natural-born flesh, and feel like aliens in their own skin.

Gays & Lesbians have *all*kinds* of my respect. They want to be themselves. I would suggest that while many question their roles, nobody questions their gender. Our members are on the other end of that... gender is at issue, but roles are pretty bare and open.

Where is Geordi?!?!? "Captain, we need to reverse polarity!!!"

- MM

[BLUE ORCHID]

Hi Jenn, Why do so many just assume that all Crossdressers are Gay ??

[Pat]

No science to back it up, but I have theory that straight crossdressers, which all the surveys say are the majority, tend to be more closeted and aren't seen. Gay and bi crossdressers go out more, are seen more, are presented in the media more and the public perception is that they're more representative of crossdresserdom (if that's a word.)

[Jenniferathome]

Hi Jenn, Why do so many just assume that all Crossdressers are Gay ??

Well, I think that assumption is both natural and reasonable. It goes like this: most woman like men. Wanting to present as female means you like men. Why would a straight man want to dress as a woman?!?!

[KristyPa]

I dressed for years at home and decided I wanted to go out, this was like 1990. I went not dressed to a couple of so-called gay bars first and checked them out. If it matters I don't consider myself gay I just figured gay people would be more excepting than people in a typical bar.
After years of going out I feel strongly gay bars are far more excepting. In fact I went into a regular night club one night and was asked to leave, they said I was not dressed properly.
I started going out like once a week for several years. I found that basically no one paid much any attention in gay bars except for guys interested in us girls. I was advised to never go to a leather bar, which I wound not do anyway.

Someone else on this thread mentioned lesbians are the less excepting. I found that out several different times, they could be very catty. Gay guys was usually very friendly and would enjoy talking with you.

[Stephanie Julianna]

I agree. With the exception of Halloween, gay men are not necessarily thrilled to be around crossdressers. I only frequented gay bars for a short time back in the day and realized early on that I was not really welcomed. I don't think that has changed much. Most stories I here have the men on one side of the bar and the "girls" on the other side. Kind of like Catholic school.

[Jenniferathome]

strangest Catholic school I ever heard of....;-)

[Michelle_G]

One would think that people who are looking for acceptance and tolerance would be accepting and tolerant themselves. Not always so.

[Pat]

Last night I spent some time with friends at a local sports bar (in drab.) Now I know why would I think gay bars would be accepting of crossdressers. It'll take a week to wash the testosterone smell out of my hair...

[CD_Princess1234]

I find the LGBT community more accepting. I don't feel uncomfortable or out of place.... what's wrong with that?

What does everyone else do when you go out to have fun?

[sherri]

Actually, I didn't make any such assumption early on. I didn't have a clue -- I knew zippo about gays, and this was pre-Forum etc -- so my first outings I was nervous as a cat in a room full of rocking chairs. I desperately wanted to go somewhere and tried picturing myself going into one of the local kicker or yuppie bars, but all those reveries ended with either an ambulance ride or a walk of shame, and honestly, to this day I have yet to test those waters here at home. So, following the logic that's already been posted, I went the gay route by default and that instinct proved out. So it's not that I assume, I know for a fact that gay venues are tolerant, at least around here.

[Lorileah]

One would think that people who are looking for acceptance and tolerance would be accepting and tolerant themselves. Not always so.

Rarely in any case. remember
There is a long hair that doesn't like the short hair
For being' such a rich one, that will not help the poor one . Even here we separate factions. It is human nature

I find it is varying everywhere. Never had a problem at a "straight" venue. Never had a problem at a "gay" venue. Gay guys talk to me all the time because I am not a threat. Lesbians have taken me under their wing many times. Been to leather clubs. Been to drag bars (now there I met with cattiness). Been to arty bars and been to sports bars. No one says anything (what they think I don't really care anymore). I stay away from bars where I know I won't fit. I don't do biker bars but have friends who do. I don't like hairy men so bear bars are not my style ( I mean what if one hits on me?). I also don't frequent meat market bars. Straight men won't date me because they think it will make them gay. Straight women find me fascinating but not as a date.

The bar I perform in started as a "gay" bar but is now 50/50. I have heard a couple remarks about the drag queens (which really hardly ever come there) and two Yelp reviews complained about the crossdressers. The management answered both quickly with "We don't discriminate". Yes there have been people who have come in that don't fit and on occasion try and bend the place to suit them While they aren't thrown out they are made to feel that they need to find a new location. What exactly are you looking for? If you are looking for a hookup, you need to choose a bar that is known for that. If you are looking to dance, I have never seen anyone turned away as long as you are proper. If you are looking for conversation...see what I am saying?

When you first go out, most middle of the road gay bars will welcome your cash. Acting like a hooker or an over sexed 16 year old probably would be less welcome. That is what I see in gay bars with newly minted CDs. They haven't lost the sexual fetish part and they expect any man would trip trying to have them Realize that in today's world a lot of gay and lesbians have partners...like any straight bar...you don't mess with another person's partner. i see CDs that have hard time telling the difference between just talking and trying to seduce. Just go and be yourself and relax. You may be hit on you may not...even by a lesbian

[XemmaX]

I have found them to be accepting but it depends really on the bar, leather or bars that cater to bears or the other masculine gay fetish niches would probably not into it.

[Vicky_Scot]

From my experience the gay community as said before tolerates Crossdressers and Transexuals but certainly do not go out there way to make them feel welcome.

Also agree that Lesbians are even less tolerant of Crossdressers and Transexuals.

But I can see where they are coming from at times as society did not know where to pigeon hole CD's & TS's so they just tagged us onto the the LGB community hence its now LGBT.

But the bottom line is that even in 2015 society have to label everyone and as you see LGBT just does that and singles people out as being different from normal society which is just insulting to all concerned.

[JessicaMann]

I know!!!! I want to hang with more sisters like us!!!

[char GG]

This is only my observation, I don't think any bar, straight, gay, or whatever, is going to welcome any new person with open arms. CDers have to build a relationship with the place (maybe with the bar tenders). Maybe they should go with another crossdresser, be friendly, and don't expect too much. The dynamics also change with each visit, even to the same bar. It all depends on the people who are there during each particular visit.

[Adriana Moretti]

my new thing to do is to go into str8 bars dressed ( in numbers) ......never a problem yet.....yet......but if you dress properly and represent accordingly there should be no issues.....staffs have been extremely friendly, even helping us call cabs at the end of a night. Your only as strong as your weakest link so make sure your gal pals are all on the same page

[Beverley Sims]

I agree with you insomuch as gay people have their own agenda and beliefs.
They also differ from ours, we still like women where they are attracted to people of the same sex.
We like clothing of the opposite sex and this gives us a drive.
Men do have many fantasies about other men and and these are quite different to cross dressers.
Women also have a totally different attraction to other women and their fantasies can include men or even to the extent of abhorrence.

The only tangible link I see is that we have all been attracted away from what people see as a "normal" hetrosexual relationship.
We are driven together because society defines us as different.

[Julogden]

Speaking from a LOT of experience, gay bar patrons are more tolerant than straight counterparts, but more importantly, even if they have issues with CD's, they aren't going to physically attack anyone. I've never, ever heard of gay people physically attacking trans people of any variety.

[Jackie7]

Just don't forget, that if you're going to a gay bar, dressed as a female, there will be a natural assumption by those who are there, that YOU are also gay, and don't be surprised when you get not so kind comments when guys there hit on you and you then try to explain to them that you're straight.

I don't know, I've had good times in most kinds of bars including gay though I do avoid sports bars unless I am with a bunch of girls. Lesbian bars in Manhatran, kind of iffy unless you're really looking good or with GGs. But when someone hits on you in any venue why wouldn't you just say "thanks but no not tonight" no need to go into who is straight or bi or whatever.

[Paula_Femme]

We are driven together because society defines us as different.

And because the Muggles, even though the information in out there if they'd only look, think that we're "all" Gay! :cry:

[Babbs]

I assumed it and was correct in my instance... after all we are the "T" in the LGBT grouping.

[PrettyFlowingGown]

In my years of crossdressing I had trouble finding somewhere to go to relax. I found a couple of good places in Brisbane. 2 gay pubs, and one had accomadation. While it was safe and comfortable, the gays (particurely men) hated us. We were considered weird and not wanted among their territory. Gay people cry for acceptance, but have the time to judge us.

[scarletcd]

My experience with Gay bars has always been positive to be fair. Always supportive and I've never seen any trouble. I don't know if it's just where I live but our gay clubs have a good mix of people.
In fact my experiences out and about have been on the whole a positive experience.

[pamela7]

Before I realised I was CD (dumb, I know but hey), I felt uncomfortable in gay bars the few times I went in, but then I saw myself as hetero, probably all my "stuff".
I don't know if they're more accepting or not, but I'd ASSUME that no-one likes to make social faux-pas. So the dress code indicates preferences there, and maybe CD-ing confuses and heightens social-error risks, thus making everyone involved a bit less comfortable?

[Khora]

This is kind of an aside, but do TG clubs have ladies' nights just like regular bars and clubs? I've never been and I'm curious.

[CONSUELO]

I have always been intrigued by humankind's tendency to group together and tend toward being exclusive. Even within the gay community there are places and bars that cater toward sub-groups of the community.

Its a pity we are not numerous enough to have our own cross dresser bars.