What is the essence of womanhood?

[Karen62]

I’ve only been a member here since New Year’s Day, but my membership here is a key part of my New Year’s Resolution to figure out the big open question of my life – who am I really? I have scheduled my first appointment with a gender identity therapist for Monday the 26th, and I am eager to finally dig into this long-repressed and long-ignored issue in my life.

But I had some strange moments recently at work. The first one was a week or so ago when one of my co-workers had his wife bring in their one-month-old baby to the office. All of the women on my team (and many from other teams in nearby cubicles) all came by to see the child. Then they all stood there, next to my desk, and swooned over the baby girl.

I am 52 years old and was married for nearly 20 years. My ex-wife never wanted kids, and I was always ambivalent about it, so kids were never part of my life. I sat at my desk and looked at all of these women just gathering and chatting and baby-talking to the tiny infant. Aside from the father, no other males came up to see the child. I wondered was a maternal drive a core essence of womanhood? I felt no connection to any of that. Nothing at all.

Secondly, our team took a business trip recently and while in a tour van, all of the women got into chatty conversations about, well, everything, nothing, just superficially engaging in talk. I don’t really know what was said, as I was not included (aside from the van driver, I was the only other male onboard). I was a very shy child, and I have learned how to overcome profound shyness as an adult, but it takes a lot of emotional work, and sometimes I am not up for the effort. But the chatting seemed so girly and I felt no compulsion to include myself. Was there a social essence of womanhood here that I was simply missing?

Now for context, I am 52 and the women in both cases were all in their 20s, so for me to actively try to blend in either of the situations above would turn on the “creepy old guy” alarm (at least in my own head!). But all of this made me think about what is it that makes a human being a woman. Not the anatomical stuff, but the mental/emotional stuff. As of late, I have been feeling a very strongly growing pull toward an ever-deeper position on the TG spectrum, but perhaps this is just some pink fog clouding my mind. Perhaps the exhilaration of finally acknowledging this TG stuff in my life is making me think about this in an unrealistic way. But to counter that, I recently saw a series of YouTube videos of a young TS woman who documented her transition in periodic video assessments documenting each period in her transition. She stated she felt that HRT actually changed the way her brain thought about things. She said her brain worked differently after HRT, and I glommed onto that detail as perhaps the answer to my question, in that a testosterone-polluted brain is just different from an estrogen-bathed brain, and it’s natural that I would not feel an affinity for these two classic female experiences. Or then again, maybe not.

Of course, I will address this all as part of my therapy once I start. But I wanted to pose the question to the members here: What does it mean to be a woman in mental and emotional terms? Did you feel a change happen after the start of HRT, or was the difference always there? I know this is highly subjective, but I am trying to figure out who I am, and as currently a self-assessed occupier of more the middle-ish range on the transgender spectrum (rather than either extreme end), I am just highly confused and a bit worried that there will never be a clear answer for me.

I would love to hear your thoughts on this. Thanks.

Karen

[arbon]

Well, if you start hrt it will be interesting if you look back at this post a few years from now

A lot changes with us. A whole lot. HRT and how it affects the brain is probably a part of it,but I don't think all of it. As you transition and start living as a woman you adapt, letting go of some of the old male characteristics and picking up more female ones, and it happens and you are not even aware it is happening. Thats kinda the way it was for me. How much was hrt or how much was just from the social changing I don't know, but it has changed.

[Persephone]

Wow, Karen, that's not an easy one!

Let's see... I've always loved seeing, holding, and cooing to little babies, even other people's little babies. And, well prior to HRT, I could spend hours hanging out with women and "girl talking." While I mostly hang with others in my age bracket (senior citizens), I do have active and positive woman-to-woman relationships with women in their 20's.

But whether it was also part of my "natural instinct," or whether I adopted it as part of my male cover, I'm comfortable with guys too. O..K., I have never been into sports, not as a player nor as a spectator. But I have been known to work on cars and trucks, do sporting clays, build and launch rockets, fool around with electronics, etc., etc., and so forth.

One of my favorite comments was one that one puzzled GG friend of mine made to another, "He's (my masculine side) such a manly guy and she's (my femme side) such a girly girl."

But then again, aren't we determining these things based somewhat on stereotypic expectations? After all, one of my GG friends loathed children (her favorite comment was "Oh, I like children... when they're properly prepared," implying that they could be delicious with the right sauce). Another, very ladylike, woman that I know is also an Olympic level performer in a stereotypically male sport that cannot be named here.

And so it goes. It is possible to dislike babies and social chit-chat and still be a woman... maybe.

Hugs,
Persephone.

[Cheryl123]

Hi Karen. I think you are worrying too much and perhaps trying to intellectualize which the essence of who you are. You are seem to be thinking that because you don't feel an attachment to babies or because you find it difficult to socialize with 20 yr olds, then maybe you are not a woman after all. For many of us, our true self is deeply repressed. You feel strongly that you are a woman (or else why would you seek therapy?) so trust the feeling. People speak of hormones changing us, but I like to think of the process as hormones releasing our repressed self and letting it blossom.

Women are more sociable and seek to bond with other women. I find myself talking to other women so much more now, and often not talking about anything in particular but just talking to bond and share feelings.

But don't worry. Just go with the flow and explore your feelings and you will be ok.

[Rianna Humble]

I can relate to some of what you said in your opening post, Karen. Before I started my transition I was too shy to just chat to girls less than half my age a bit like you said and, like you, I also grew up very very shy. However, since letting go of the old shell of "masculinity", I find girls at work who are more than 30 years younger come up to me to chat and it feels natural.

I can't really answer your question though because I don't think that there is just one thing that makes someone essentially a woman.

As others have said there are women who love babies and those who don't, there are women who love to chat and those who don't, some love to dress up and others like to dress down, yet they are all women.

It's great that you have an appointment with a Gender Specialist in less than 10 days, hopefully you will be able to explore these things with her.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

If you say "fill in the blank" is the essence of womanhood, and there are bunch of women who are not "fill in the blank" (and there are), then what are they??

I'd avoid these types of questions in your mind, they will cloud things. NOT knowing or feeling that you are experiencing the "essence of womanhood" is a nebulous concept at best..
You know or don't know that you are a woman. That is knowable to you on the inside even if today you can't find the key to knowing.
The answer to that question may evolve and you may have to understand all manner of coping strategies in your mind that blocks or rejects this knowledge

MY dime story therapy point is that you are replacing a knowable thing with an unknowable thing. Replacing a real thing with something that nobody can answer.
You go round and round on this and it'll just get you more confused.

The essence of womanhood is simply being a woman.

I love football and Guinness stout, I like babies fine but never coo'd and swooned at them, I never ever wanted to touch any type of workers tools(ugh), I am way too loud and boisterous, I've always flitted my hands around when I talked, I use foul language too much. Too many guy years changed the way I am. It doesn't make me less than what I am.

One thing I would share with you is that if you go down this path in therapy, do not underestimate the incredible and simple power of experience. Presenting as a woman and interacting with people is hugely important.
On one level , that's what transition is. Meet crossdressers, meet transsexuals, meet people that aren't sure or identity gender queer. Do PERSONALLY what you are doing here. And then be honest, I promise 10 outings with a group of people and your gut will know even if your mind doesn't.

+++++

BTW, I did feel a big change on HRT over time. I felt a placebo effect big time and swore I "instantly" knew. However over time I realized I was just making that up in my mind because I felt the real feelings. Frankly however it was centered around emotions and my ability to control and manage them. They just flowed out of me and felt overwhelming. That was the difference. It didn't make me like babies more.

[Carlene]

A wonderfully thought provoking post, Karen. I can't answer any of this with certainty, nor can I speak for others, but I can tell you how I feel the topic relates to myself. I too, do not have maternal connections or the desire to become part of the fray that often seems part of girly chat circles. On the other hand I welcome those parts, traites if you will, within me that are very womanly.

As others have already stated, it would appear that there are no specifics to determine what a woman is. Some are maternal while others are not etc., but each is still a woman. Therefore, for me, it follows that there must be an essence of womanhood and I believe each of us on this forum has this. It is not all physical. It is not all emotional. It is not all the same for each of us, but at the core there remains an essence.

Having said this, for myself, there is the complication of being born male and being socialized as such throughout childhood, teen years, and well into adulthood. Does this account for anything in regard to who I am today? I suspect so. Hopefully, I can retain those characteristics that I value and rid myself of some of those that I don't.

Carlene

[celeste26]

It is great that you spend so much time with other women, even if you end up only listening. In one sense being a woman means "not being a man." As simple as that is to write, it is difficult to know for certain. Men are the "other" side, objects meant for manipulation and play. But most of all the essence of being a woman is simply identifying as one, and therein accepting all the social conditions that come with that.

[PretzelGirl]

Karen, I think it is better to think that we all are different. So we are each interact differently with people and enjoy different social situations. As we transition, many of us may not find new behaviors and interests as much as we start letting down the walls we built for protection. There are things we may have done despite being viewed as male and other things we bottled up so we wouldn't be judged.

So I would just start relaxing and let the true you come out. It will be interesting what you find in yourself, fun to experience, and truly unique to you. Be authentic to yourself!

[Dianne S]

Karen,

There's a wide variety of personality types among women. I had a female coworker who had no maternal instincts whatsoever. She was quite up front that she didn't want kids and enjoyed tremendously the lifestyle she and her husband shared. So not being interested in kids doesn't disqualify you from the sorority.

And some women are shy and not chatty. Again, that doesn't disqualify them from the sorority.

Just explore your identity with your therapist and with luck, you'll arrive at an identity that makes you feel comfortable in your own skin, and that's far more important than conforming to perceived stereotypes.

[Inna]

yes, these were a very stereotypical woman traits! and yes, hrt does rewire neuronal connections within brain geography.

But it is important to understand that not every TG person will be drawn to all encompassing change, some will settle with gender expression within its most basic form.
It is all about Gender Dysphoria and its conclusion in congruency.

Hence TG spectrum encompassing all the levels of GD.

Don't beat your self down, but simply let it unfold! You may be surprised what shall come...

[Rogina B]

Women are going to see you and treat you like a guy,until they don't see you in that way. So far,you haven't given them any reason to do otherwise.Perhaps you will find [if you were to socially transition] that they would include you. There are many women that are "all business" or very "binary ?" and don't make or participate in playful conversation. Then there are some that can mix it all up pretty well..a real ability! Maternal instincts can cross gender lines. Recently I was part of a 4 person lobbying group that met with a City counselor to discuss LGBT protections[HRO] Anyway,between the 4 of us we had those initials covered,lol. The "Gay guy' was married and they had adopted two babies recently and was showing us pictures. The two GG's[both professional lobyists] were not oogling the pics of the cute kids at all None were in their future,yet at 32 are in their prime to make some. And I have my kid but I do know a cute and good one when I see it but that doesn't mean I feel maternally excited. Everyone is different.

[KellyJameson]

I'm not sure there is one thing that all women share and have in common as to their essence. I have know woman that absolutely loathe children and anything to do with them and more than a few mothers who should never have become mothers.

I'm very sensitive and protective of the innocent and defenseless and seem to intuitively know what people are feeling and thinking but this does not make me a woman even though I do think it is trait more often found in women.

if I had to make generalizations about men and women, a man is more likely to be a lone wolf (by free choice) where a woman finds her identity through association. This is one of the burdens of being a woman because you are more sensitive to the experience of being pulled in two different directions at the same time and on many different levels as to group identity (inclusion) versus individualization and why women will attack another womans "reputation" in an attempt to isolate her.

Usually exclusion is more painful for women than men.

Individualization is the problem for women and what much of society is trying to push her toward.

Be a strong independent woman is the constant message by society "except when it is not"

To be a woman is to often feel conflicted and partly why women suffer from anxiety more than men do. It is that unique experience of needing connection on levels greater than what men usually need. Men have certain freedoms that come with being born men that women have to fight for. This is partly due to society but comes out of the biological differences that influenced society and the norms of behavior between its members.

Once again the need for connection is different from woman to woman and many women actively rebel against this pull toward "the collective" because they understand how this threatens their own identity formation "as individuals"

There is a "hive mentality" as the pull toward being part of the "herd" and a persons temperament will strongly influence their position in relation to the herd. Men are usually all about not being "Sheeple" but there are also women who are trying to break free from this as well.

It takes a woman longer to find her own voice. She is usually more sensitive to how others view her so she is trying to become an individual "within the group" where men do this "outside the group"

In some ways feminism seeks to free women from themselves as to that tenacious "self consciousness" that keeps them over aware and over dependent of and on what others thing about them that creates a type of low level hum of nervousness, possibly tipping over into anxiety.

High emotionality is not always a good thing. More violence is associated with men but at the same time they are calmer. Men are more likely to be relaxed with other men where it is more difficult for women to be relaxed with each other. They are usually evaluating everything for deeper meanings.

I have always done this because it is natural to who and how I am but it can tip into hypervigilance and anxiety. In many ways I'm a extreme version of the worst aspects of being female as to how her brain works and subsequent emotions. I have actually worked very hard to learn from men as to experiencing that easy relaxed way they are.

You could say that men have made me a better woman as to helping me transcend some of the more painful aspects of living with this hyper feminine mind I have to live with as to "intense connection and awareness". Men can have a calming effect on women from them not being like her.

Intense connection and awareness is both a gift and a curse when you have to much of it.

When you are extremely sensitive to the emotions of others you are also open to being infected by them. Some women understand the dangers to this and actively rebel against it, where in general men seem to not be vulnerable. Their brains evolved for other purposes.

Try to understand why you "identify with women" That in my opinion is key.

I had no choice in that it was forced onto me as to how my brain works as to "sensitivity, connection and awareness"

[DeeDee1974]

Maybe it's just being comfortable in your in skin. Because I really can't thing of one female friend of mine that doesn't encompass some traits that are stereotypical of the opposite gender.

I will admit that I do regret not having kids and that feeling did not exist pre-hrt. Age could also be a contributing factor having just hit 40.

[Eringirl]

Hi Karen. I wouldn't over think it. But that is easy for me to say. I LOVE babies. Always have. One of my biggest disappointments is that I was not able to be pregnant. That was an interesting therapy session!! ;) . I have always felt more comfortable with women than men socially. My office is dominantly women and we all get along great. But we are, for the most part, of the same generation, so topics are easy to relate to from that point of view.

Others have commented about the effects of HRT. So that my help. But I wouldn't beat yourself up about it. Just be you. Not all women love babies, or participate in idle chatter - they are just shy as we ell. You will find your place.

Erin

[Persephone]

As I was cleaning my desk today I came across a quote from Kathryn Cleve:

"What does it really mean to be a woman? I believe I am a woman because of what I feel in my heart. I felt I was a woman who had finally found her true self. After decades of hiding my feminine nature from the world, I was finally free, even if it was only for a few years. The heart is the most important thing about a woman. And deep inside my heart I was and still am female."

Hugs,
Persephone.

[Karen62]

Thank you all for the wonderful, thoughtful replies. I see a diversity of thoughts and points of view, and of course, that all makes sense. Women are not any more (or any less) homogenous than men -- people are people, of course. Stereotypes do exist about the characteristic differences between women and men, yet they often stem from core truths (or at least perceptions of truth). I do know intellectually know that maternal orientation is not universally a woman thing. My ex-wife, who wanted nothing to do with children, demonstrated that. And for the social interactivity trait, my last girlfriend/SO was actually fairly emotionally stunted in that area. She was brilliant, but she had no close girlfriends at all - none, and was socially quite awkward outside of 1-on-1 conversations. She was even more of a lone wolf personality type than me (and I can be that way, or at least I used to be that way). So I get all of that, but as I am searching for my own answers, I only wondered if these feelings (or lack thereof) were indicative of anything revealing about my own essence.


I think you are worrying too much and perhaps trying to intellectualize which the essence of who you are.

Guilty as charged, Cheryl. Absolutely true. Right now, I have no basis to perceive my world other than through my senses and interpret that information through my experiences and memories. I have gotten by in life by rationalizing and intellectualizing situations and predicting outcomes. But the question of who I am that is facing me right now is unfathomable, so my old reliable tools and methods are not working (not that they always worked -- it sometimes led to jumping to conclusions or making less creative decisions). But all I have is this hammer, and this problem, who am I, is NOT a nail. I am flailing here. I hope to acquire some new tools for dealing with all this in the coming days and weeks in counseling -- and from listening to all of you here.


So I would just start relaxing and let the true you come out. It will be interesting what you find in yourself, fun to experience, and truly unique to you. Be authentic to yourself!

And perhaps this is Tool #1. Thank you, Sue. I'm not necessarily used to always being in control, but I am used to being able to more or less anticipate things in life, or at least prepare for a number of contingencies. One of my more useful traits has been the ability to adapt to new situations when all of the above has failed. I do need to relax, let things happen as they will, and allow myself to experience this discovery. It's a new approach for me, but this is all part of my big change, is it not?


The essence of womanhood is simply being a woman.

And how fundamentally clear is that, Michele? Perfect.


It takes a woman longer to find her own voice.

Kelly, ultimately I am not too worried about finding my voice. While the shy little boy definitely still exists within me, it is buried in me like the original grain of sand within a pearl. It's there at the core, but many layers of life experience and personal growth have taught me how to get past it -- at least when I truly need to. The whole social thing is weird with me. Put me in a room with a good friend, and I am chatty Cathy (especially if it is a woman). Put me in a dinner party of 6-8 and I am a reasonable participant, especially if I know some of the people (or I perceive there is someone there who might be feeling left out, in which case I actively rope that person into the conversation -- I empathetically understand what it means to be socially left out). But put me in a big room with a lot of total strangers, where I am not there for a mission (such as a job search) or where I am not in the same peer group as the rest of the people, and I will struggle mightily. I actually really like the idea that women typically have a deeper social bonding with others. I look forward to exploring that more.

Thank you, ladies, for sharing your wisdom with me. You have no idea how much I value this forum of ours. I really need a community of sisters right now, and I am so blessed to have found one here.

Karen

[sarahcsc]

Hi Karen,

I am going to start off by arguing, that the essence of womanhood cannot be defined. (unless you consider only the physical traits)

In fact, I am going to argue that any subjective experience we have, can only be approximated with words but never relayed in entirety to another soul besides ourselves.

The only thing that connects two souls is the language in which they share. One can bring another closer to oneself but describing their experience in words but words can only be a proxy of the true experience. Words are our biggest limitations. Imagine yourself explaining what it feels like to be a man to a woman and you'll find yourself in a similar state of quandary.

Countless volumes of literature have been written about femininity and masculinity. Yet one thing is sure: femininity and masculinity is ever changing and everybody has a unique take on gender roles.

So what is the essence of womanhood? Any woman should know but they can never express it in words.

Therefore, the essence of womanhood, as long as it is left unsaid, remains unclaimed and undefined.


The real question here is: "who is asking the question?"

It makes sense to ask the question as a man because a man could not understand the essence of womanhood.

But it makes no sense to ask the question as a woman because you would already know the essence.

You decide who you are and the answer shall come to you. :)

Love,
Sarah

[Karen62]

A new day, a new experience. This morning I had to rent a car after taking my car to the body shop for a repair. The young woman who picked me up at the body shop was a cute, 20-something with long blond hair, smartly dressed (in a short black trench coat, a black pencil skirt, semi-opaque black tights and tall, stylish black leather boots -- she wasn't goth, she was just wearing winter wear for a Pacific Northwest rainy Monday morning), and was very engaging. I found myself engaging in a light, chatty conversation with her, especially fun when she mentioned the local weather girl constantly lies to her about whether it'll be sunny or rainy, as it always interferes with making the right choice of which shoes to wear. I was doing today exactly what I was not as described in the original post -- socially engaged with another woman (not in a typical male way) and having a great time of it.

What made today different? Well, I was alone with her, I was underdressed today, and she was engaging with me, so I engaged right back with her. It was not flirtatious at all -- just chit chat. And I loved it.

Since I decided to become a member of this forum on New Year's Day, I knowingly took the lid off of Pandora's Box and opened my psyche to the light of day. I feel as if there are changes happening all the time, little changes, but they are adding up to big things for me.

I can't wait to start with my therapist next week. I am ready for this.

I hope you all have a wonderful day! Life is looking up!

Karen

[ReineD]

Hi Karen, welcome to the forum. :)

I'm a natal female in my 50s, and I also would have stayed out of the conversation in the tour van. My sons are all that age, I know their gfs well, but I've noticed a generation gap even if it is barely perceptible sometimes. Not that they'd be rude or anything, but just imagine being a young girl talking to friends your age, and then someone your mother's age wants to join in. You'd see her as speaking a different language.

There are fewer issues with one-on-one conversations though, but this still depends on the person. Some younger folks feel comfortable interacting as a peer with older folks, while others don't so much.

As to what makes a female essence, I see us as physical entities. It makes sense to me that chromosomes and hormones influence our thought patterns and our personalities, although there is indeed a wide range within each sex. And it makes sense that FtMs or MtFs should experience personality changes when they take testosterone or estrogen respectively. I knew one young FtM who reported that after some time on testosterone, it became difficult if not foreign to cry. This is not a scientific observation, just what my friend told me.

Also, obviously there are people who identify as the gender associated with their opposite birth-sex but this can still be physical. There are theories that the brain of a transsexual baby is influenced by a strong opposite-sex hormone wash in utero.

[Karen62]

Reine, it is so nice to meet you! I've loved your smart and insightful comments here, and this one is no exception. I think you are right about the generation gap issue, and then toss in the gender gap (as perceived by them), and it could have become a creep-fest. I did the right thing by not intruding myself into their moment. I think I was just feeling out of sorts. I decided to not bring any feminine clothes with me on that trip (I wasn't sure if I'd be sharing a room with anyone), and I've been dressing constantly at home in recent months. I think I missed it far more than I anticipated. And I was also feeling tired, and perhaps a bit sullen. The exclusion from the conversation (I was in the shotgun seat in the van, which made the exclusion almost natural), was I'm sure unintentional, but I still felt isolated -- yet again. But today I felt invigorated by the conversation I had. Silly, huh?

To be honest, all of this is related to my own question of who I am and where I am going with all of this. I've been fortunate to have had some wonderful PM exchanges with several other women here, and a regular theme has been "what do you want?" At first I really had no answer to that, other than to find an answer. However, I find that answer is quickly evolving in me. I feel as if my thoughts are finally starting to gel on all of this, and I am becoming more and more convinced that I am not going off on a lark, but am truly following the right path for my life. I understand the challenges that lie before me (actually, I probably don't in full, but I have no romanticized dream of what transition truly entails), but I also understand what pretending to be something I am not is doing to me. I can't take it anymore. The angst is building up in me. I hate being like this. And so I am glad I am finally starting to address this issue.



Also, obviously there are people who identify as the gender associated with their opposite birth-sex but this can still be physical. There are theories that the brain of a transsexual baby is influenced by a strong opposite-sex hormone wash in utero.

I've often wondered about this. Too bad it is totally unprovable almost 53 years after the fact. Not that it matters. Am I going to blame my mother? It's not like it was intentional, even if it really happened. Sometimes the best way to deal with the setbacks in life is to not look backward for a scapegoat, but to look forward for a solution, even if it is merely a way to cope with the situation at hand.

Karen

[Kaitlyn Michele]

FWIW the question "what is the essence of womanhood" sounds like a romantic question to me...
Your comments seem to me to come from a place where you are romanticizing womanhood in your own mind.....a good example is how you describe that girl with all kinds of specific details about her clothes...
I notice clothes too, but if your mindset is to focus on them as an important part of your dialog then that's a hint of where you lie on the tg spectrum.
In therapy you can learn to work through your inner monologue, your actions, and your human interactions to help you be smart about things.

You've been asked "what do you want?"
I can tell you what you want. You want to NOT be transsexual.

I truly hope in your therapy that you determine that you are able to function in your life and express your feminine side as you see fit!
If it turns out you are coming to terms with your nature as a woman, that's when Pandora's box really gets opened.

[Jorja]

"What is the essence of womanhood?"

That is like asking what color is best or who makes the best BBQ? For me, I think the answer is "being". Just being a free person to decide what is important to me. To heck with society, to heck with religion, to heck with the big all knowing gender know-it-alls. It is what is important to me and how I chose to use it that is important. Now for you, it may be something completely different and that is ok too.

[becky77]

Well It's not a stereotype.
I and several of my friends have little interest in babies, but give me a Puppy......
What does that prove? Not much, just I find Puppies way cuter than most babies.
Don't confuse being a woman with personal preferences or personality.
Also, some of what you feel is conditioning , it may come later when you are on hormones and are at ease in your Gender role. Or not.
A lot of women coo over babies because that is what's expected of them, its almost tradition.
Guys do similar things with cars or motorbikes etc.

[ReineD]

FWIW the question "what is the essence of womanhood" sounds like a romantic question to me...

I agree that it is very difficult to define, and almost impossible to do so without invoking some romantic notion or stereotype. But, we all sense the differences between the two genders even though the personality and appearance spectrum is indeed wide within each sex. We still know which are women and which are men. I took it that Karen was asking, how do define these differences exactly. Are there any qualities that are essential to either one or the other without which there would be gender confusion?

It's just really hard to pinpoint, precisely because the spectrum within each sex is so very wide.

<edit>
… and so the only consistent thing I can pick up on, the one thing that tells us that someone is a man or a woman and the reason that nearly all TSs undergo physical changes, is in large part a person's appearance and also the behaviors that most of us attribute to hormonal differences (for example the testosterone-induced male behavior, and at the risk of having a forum-full of GGs mad at me, the hormonal moods often attributed to women). There are other, subtler differences, but then we get right back to the stereotypes because obviously not every person will fit into what is being described.

For example, why is it that a woman can be chatty, but a man who is chatty with a lot of facial expression can give the impression he is gay. Why is it that a man can be aggressive at work and admired, but such a woman can be deemed b*tchy? Yet, there are women who are not chatty and there are men who are not aggressive at work and neither are taken to be the opposite sex. Just as there are men who can be animated when they talk, and some women can be assertive at work without being thought of as gay or b*tchy, respectively. Tis very hard to define.

[Karen62]

So much wisdom here, I am so graced with the contributions of all of you. Thank you (even those I haven't yet called out in a quote!). I love you all.


I can tell you what you want. You want to NOT be transsexual.

Perhaps you are correct, but I want to think the more accurate way of saying this is I don't want to be wrong about being transsexual, especially if I choose to follow the path. You had better believe I'm constantly thinking about this issue. As I wrote to a friend in a PM today, if you had asked me last night if I was interested in HRT, I would have shouted YES for all to hear. But today at work, I felt some doubts creep up. But being so self-analytical (it's a bad habit, I know), I actually equated my doubts to the feeling a groom feels on the morning of his wedding (or at least the fears I felt some 25+ years ago of making a "permanent" decision such as marriage). I felt doubts. And frankly, I think having doubts is a good thing. It's makes you search your soul all the deeper for your own truth. I am doing that soul searching. Kaitlyn, you still may be right, as I actually do NOT romanticize transition. I see it as a huge obstacle to get through, that gender-blend time when you are simultaneously both and neither, and are so in public. Yeah, I just don't want to make a mistake, but doing nothing could be the biggest mistake of my life. I have tried that route for 52 years and it's not worked out so well. But kudos to Kaitlyn for piercing the veil. I sat up and noted your point. Thank you.


For me, I think the answer is "being".

Jorja, your wisdom ALWAYS shines so brightly here. I love it so much. Thank you.


Well It's not a stereotype.
I and several of my friends have little interest in babies, but give me a Puppy......
What does that prove? Not much, just I find Puppies way cuter than most babies.
Don't confuse being a woman with personal preferences or personality.
Also, some of what you feel is conditioning , it may come later when you are on hormones and are at ease in your Gender role. Or not.
A lot of women coo over babies because that is what's expected of them, its almost tradition.
Guys do similar things with cars or motorbikes etc.

Becky, right, Yes, YES, and YES!! You are right, of course. But trust me, I am not shallow enough to equate stereotypes as definitions. I was only exploring my own insecurities and doubts, again related to not wanting to make a mistake. I get that the only true answer may in fact be elusive. No one knows if the first person who asks you to marry them is the best person for you. You can't know if taking a new job in a new city will lead to a big new life or a prison of loneliness and misery. Sometimes the right answer is not that clear, so in those cases, I use my over-analysis skills, look at what I want, what I don't want, what's important and not, what are the risks versus the benefits, and of course, the intangible what does my gut tell me (and if possible to surmise, why?). Some of you tell tales of knowing full well what you wanted. I wish I had your clarity. I have 50+ years of hard-core repression, denial, and isolation that is slowly unraveling. The brick walls are crumbling, but not yet fully gone. The wonderful and philosophical KellyJameson (thank you so much, Kelly!) sent me a link yesterday that speaks volumes to me: https://saladbingo.wordpress.com/2010/05/17/life-for-a-transsexual-in-the-closet/. It's as if I wrote this and forgot about it. This is me, and this helped me a great deal.


I agree that it is very difficult to define, and almost impossible to do so without invoking some romantic notion or stereotype. But, we all sense the differences between the two genders even though the personality and appearance spectrum is indeed wide within each sex. We still know which are women and which are men. I took it that Karen was asking, how do define these differences exactly.

I actually could have quoted every last bit of Reine's comment, but I'm so bloody verbose that I'm trying (unsuccessfully) to self-censor tonight. Reine's insight is brilliant. Fantastic. Yes, I was speaking about all of this in context to me (sorry that I was not clear on that). I'm looking for a signal, a Yea or Nay, any sort of data that can help my self-analysis give me some traction on the right way for me. To be honest, I have do an opinion on what I really want, but I will wait to first speak to my therapist next to see how that goes. I've made a promise to myself to not use therapy as a self-validation tool, but instead use it for its intended purpose - to fully explore the issues.

If you all get the impression that I am over-thinking this, yeah, I guess that could be true. :brolleyes: But over-thinking which item to get on a dinner menu is just plain silly. Over-thinking about which car to buy may be potentially excessive. Over-thinking about the partner whom you are consider marrying is probably not a bad idea, but over-thinking about changing one's public and private life so completely (assuming full transition is in the path), well, I just can't let it go. It's my coping mechanism, my self-assurance that I am doing the right thing. I do get passionate about things, and I am REALLY passionate about my long-awaited emergence and self-acceptance as transgender, but I'm still taking mental baby steps on this path (even when they seem big to me). I apologize if this might all seem excessive and annoying, but as Jorja so kindly said,


...that is ok too

Thank you, my dear friends, for allowing me to rant and ramble.

Karen

[becky77]

Most of us over analyse things, It's natural to especially in this situation.

My director said to me yesterday. "It's admirable to put your colleagues first and we really appreciate how conscientious you are to the company. But you need to start getting selfish, put your needs first and we will give you the support".
That pretty much summed me up, worrying about what everyone else is thinking and looking for ways to make it easier for them. In transition even though it goes against the core of my personality, you have to think of self.
There is no sitting on the fence on this, you either stay where you are let your mind cage you in ever increasing doubts and fears, or you step over the cliff and take that plunge.
Therapists are great but the only way to really know if you should be a woman fulltime, is to go out there and live as a woman, stop the thinking and just be.
It's why so many people try part time first. I have been living as a woman outside of work for over a year, I'm now certain fulltime is the answer (bit late now, It's company news).
How much experience have you got? How have your interactions as Karen been?

Ps I didn't accuse you of being shallow, I was unsuccessfully trying to say. Don't doubt you are a woman based on not sharing some commonly perceived traits. Also when you are dressed and acting as a guy you won't get the same experience, people see you as a guy, they generally treat you as a guy, they have no idea you are a wom an inside. A friend at work has known about me for some time and even though she sees me as a guy physically, she sees me as a woman mentally and talks to me that way.

[Starling]

The first time I ever dressed with other people was in the company of a wonderful woman I've known for years and two really interesting women I had never met before. We were all in the same advanced age group. Intros all around, friend's grandson taking photos, and despite my crappy wig, within fifteen minutes I was being treated like one of the girls. The big surprise to me was how centered and calm I felt--I'm normally nervous and a bit hyperactive--and I have felt that way every time I have been out since then, even surrounded by strangers. Full time is my goal, for then I can say without hesitation, "I am a woman."

Karen, the advice you have gotten not to over-analyze is so true. Once you let yourself go, you'll be amazed at how easy and natural it feels to inhabit your true self.

:) Lallie

[Rogina B]

Therapists are great but the only way to really know if you should be a woman full time, is to go out there and live as a woman, stop the thinking and just be.
It's why so many people try part time first. I have been living as a woman outside of work for over a year, I'm now certain full time is the answer
There is no substitution for "street time" with the experiences that come with it. Have to jump in the deep end if you want to swim!

[LeaP]

I stumble on the term itself. It's loaded, impossibly laden with cultural baggage for me. The fact that so many, so strongly consider womanhood to include being brought up as a girl and maturing as a young woman into womanhood is part of my difficulty. I do respect the substance of this view, even if it excludes other kinds of equally valid gendered experience.

Just as I have never used the word "man" to describe myself, I do not use the word "woman," except in limited ways. I do not believe I am likely to change that until I am post transition, living a woman's life full-time.

So an important part of my self realization was discovering and freeing a core that I identify not as "woman," but as female. More and more, I gravitate to the view that the essence of transsexuality is not gender per se, but sex self perception. Gender is a secondary way of looking at it.

I can find that female essence instantly in my earliest memories. Fortunately or not, I am blessed with extraordinarily early memories. And damn (like Kaitlyn, my language tends toward indelicate) if I don't remember them as a little girl. That was a flame that flickered ever more unevenly until being obliterated in adolescence, in the process destroying any natural claim to womanhood – not that I understood that implication at the time, of course.

For me, trying to find the woman within is akin to trying to find the Swede or Scot within. They are there. There are echoes and patterns passed through the family and perhaps even in the genes. But would I say to a Swedish person that I am a Swede? Nope. I would were to move to Sweden and change my citizenship, however. And I think my substantial Swedish heritage would give it more weight than the simple legality would for some others, too. Even if some native Swedes didn't happen to like it…

[Anne2345]

Perhaps you are correct, but I want to think the more accurate way of saying this is I don't want to be wrong about being transsexual, especially if I choose to follow the path.

You do not choose the path. The path chooses you.


I'm so bloody verbose.

Yes. Yes you are.

Composing wordy and flowery posts may help you feel better in the moment, but they do little to accomplish anything of long term substance or progress. This path is about action and doing. It's neither a game nor a contest. There are no prizes or awards here for the overly verbose or the obsessively loquacious.

Feel free to write as much as you will if you believe it helps. But do not do so at the expense or in the place of action.

Writing and discussion are all fine and well and stuff, and words are certainly important and necessary without doubt, but these things are only but a few of the many tools available to you. To rely too heavily on words, to rely exclusively on words, would be a huge mistake. Wherever it is you need to go, supplement it all you want with words, but know that it will be action that gets you to your ultimate place of destination . . . .

[arbon]

I
Just as I have never used the word "man" to describe myself, I do not use the word "woman," except in limited ways. I do not believe I am likely to change that until I am post transition, living a woman's life full-time.

So an important part of my self realization was discovering and freeing a core that I identify not as "woman," but as female. More and more, I gravitate to the view that the essence of transsexuality is not gender per se, but sex self perception. Gender is a secondary way of looking at it.



I could never think of myself as a woman before transitioning, I was not capable of it. I was very confused, and mostly just thought of myself as a sick crazy man and hated that I was a man. But then transitioning he just faded away, its like I was never a guy at all, and I can't think of myself as anything but as a woman. Until you get to the sex self perception part which has been much more an issue for me lately - like I have stopped going to my women's meeting because I have become to uncomfortable that I still have the wrong anatomy.

[LeaP]

I have come to the point where I understand that in a fundamental way, Theresa. My body has changed sufficiently that I have become something of a blend of male and female (unclothed, anyway). The changes feel natural and normal to me. it was something of a relief that I feel no sexual aspect to the changes - a realization that came to me only a few months ago. While I worked hard in working my way through all this, I guess I was still afraid at some level that there might have been some such motivation and that it would leave me open to the "charge" of autogynephilia. But there is none, and it turns out that breasts are just breasts after all, that is that, and what's the big deal anyway?

Now then ... Knowing that and also knowing how important physical changes were (and are) to me keeps the differences between physical sex and sexual stimulation clear. Mind you, I am not saying that this is the only circumstance under which they are separable, just that it gives me clarity. I am increasingly uncomfortable in all-male situations. That has always included good old boy conversations, but now extends to much simpler things as well. To my complete surprise, even things like elevators. And I absolutely cringe inwardly in a men's room when there are others in there also. Just the feeling of having my physical sex "validated" in that way is hard to take.

[Kathryn Martin]

But all of this made me think about what is it that makes a human being a woman. Not the anatomical stuff, but the mental/emotional stuff.

There is an incredibly short answer to your question. Sex is what makes a human being female or male. Gender is a social and power figment that has always been and continues to be an oppressive part of women's lives. Look at the media, advertising, at women who get killed because a court orders a caesarian section because it deems the life of the unborn to be more valuable that the mothers, women who get killed, and beaten and called the weaker sex and raped because the social construct of gender enforce views of women that are brutal, untrue and always oppressive.

If you really want to know what a woman's essence is ask about their survival strategies in our society. And if they are willing to speak to you about those unvarnished then, possibly, you might find out what this non-existent figment of female essence might be.

[Frances]

So... women are people who get killed, beaten and raped, and then have to come up with survival strategies. Awesome.

[Kathryn Martin]

It's not what I said of course, Frances, and denying this reality ....... ah well...

[Frances]

Men get assaulted, killed and raped as well. Victimhood is the reality of professional victims. This dogmatic rethoric has become your answer to any question on this forum.