If you are going to use the words . . . then own them.

[Marcelle]

Hi all,

So this morning it is cold and my dog wanted to go for a run during which he slipped his leash and I spent a greater part of an hour chasing him over hill and dale. Huskies are great but on a scale of one to ten for attentiveness . . . minus fracking 20 :Angry3:. But I digress.

So as I was crashing through bush and brush looking for said husky, I got ruminating on a few recent posts about relationships and as always the old "tell / don't tell" debate creeps in with words such as liar, dishonest and whatnot added to the fray. I get it . . . some of you (myself included) have come clean, it worked out all high fives and chocolate cake, lucky us . . . go to the head of class with gold stars all around you. But that is us . . . our circumstances are different from many who water here and this is not a one size fits all . . . time to do Step 5 in the how to cross dress handbook. This is serious stuff and the ramifications of the big tell can be good or . . . oh so bad. Yes by all means share your experiences but seriously . . . calling people dishonest, liars, fake whatever is a bit over the top IMHO.

So I put this to those who like to talk about honesty, integrity in their lives and throw "liar and dishonest" down like some 17th century gauntlet challenge . . . sabres at dawn and don't forget your second. If you truly want to extol the virtue of how honest you are then own it not only in your personal relationship with your SO but with your family, friends and heck why you are at it . . . why not the world writ large?

Oh I know, I know . . many are going to reply with "Oh silly Isha, it is not the same thing". I'm sorry, are you saying it is okay to lie to some people but not others? What, we have graduated degrees of honesty? If so where does it end when it comes to the big reveal: (1) SO only; (2) you siblings only if you like them; (3) your favorite aunt who bought you a cool toy each year; (4) your best friend's brother Bob but only on a Sunday when the penguins move widdershins in the Antarctic. So just when it is okay to not be truthful in your life? :confused: :thinking:

I get it, we are emotionally invested with our SOs on a different level then we are with others. We share our lives and what we do has impact on each other. However if you think you are not emotionally invested with our family and friends or, what you do does not impact them, I will call BS. Don't you think your mom or best friend has the right to hear the truth from you rather than second hand through the rumour mill or accidently walk in on you all dolled up? Don't you think they might feel duped, let down, lied to all these years? Perhaps your best friend doesn't want a CDer near their family because he thinks we are creepy and here you are lying to him all these years while hanging out as his family BBQs. What about your workplace? What happens if they find out accidently you like to play dress-up after they just gave you a big "mucho macho man account" to handle because that is how they saw you . . . mucho macho . . . not femmy femme.

Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? It certainly does. For the most part we don't disclose to family, friends and others because we see no reason to, not to mention the knock on effects of potential loss of family, friends, livelihood, and prestige. After all, we are still the same person so there is no need for these people to know . . . we are not hurting anyone. Could they still find out . . .potentially yes but you'll deal with it when you have to cross that bridge. It doesn't make you a liar or dishonest just someone who has made an active decision to keep something very private to himself.

So what about the closeted CDer who only dresses for a specific reason (feeling good, stress relief, fetishistic, etc.). Goes to great lengths to keep it private, does his thing then goes on to be a loving, caring, supportive husband and father. He doesn't spend the family fortune on panties, heels, skirts and make-up nor is he a moody D-Bag when he can't dress. He is by all accounts the same guy in every sense of the person whom his SO first met and married with the exception of this one private and personal thing he does. So, what is gained by telling? Yes it could work out but there could also be potential ruin of a relationship over something that is a private thing and hurts nobody? If you are going to say the person he is hurting is his SO by not telling . . . why is that? Is that you believe what we do is so reprehensible that it needs to admitted to like some Mafioso providing allocution at their trial prior to passing judgement on them? Or is that by hiding something from his SO there is a fundamental lack of trust now in the relationship. If that is the case then anything either person in the relationship hid or did not disclose can by definition be said to erode that trust no matter who small or well intentioned . . . or is that because cross dressing is so heinous that it trumps all.

In the end, we choose who we come out to based on circumstances prevalent to our life. Some come out to their SOs, others don't . . . their choice. Some come out to family and friends and others don't . . . again their choice. Some will even out themselves to the world . . . choice made. Providing people with guidance on how to come out "should they ask" is one thing . . . attempting to shame someone from a position of moral superiority when you have only travelled a portion of the path with this thing we do IMO is a bit hypocritical. So again I challenge (gauntlet thrown to the ground) . . . if you are going espouse honesty and integrity as buzz words in your life, then commence your own personal allocution to the world writ large before passing judgment on others. However, even doing so would not give you the moral high ground over those who have not come out to everyone . . . it is only a choice you made and not necessarily the choice required of others.

Okay . . . I relinquish the soap box.

Hugs

Isha

[ophelia]

Ah the lie of omission...I can honestly say that everyone who needs to know about my secret passion ...does.
Those with no skin in the game, or who it would affect for whatever reason...doesn't. It is a colourless lie.But until society grows up a hunourmous amount that's the way it will stay.
Discuss amonst yourselves.

[mykell]

morning isha,
is the dog home? or did you give up after an hour.....





iv'e made the choice that works for me.... i never hold it against anyone who chooses differently.....

[Marcelle]

Hi Mikell,

Found him eventually . . . when he slips his leash it is kind of "game on" in his mind then he gets bored and just flops down in the snow and waits for me to catch-up.

[Laura912]

I have never quite accepted the argument that not telling a SO about the CD is some heinous sin and grounds for gnashing of teeth and wearing sackcloth as well as divorce but it has clearly impacted members in just that way. Perhaps as Mikell said, whatever works for that couple or person. It is unfortunate that sometimes nothing works and disaster follows. There is little an individual can do or say that will influence the outcome for another couple so why try? And this discussion has an element of quicksand to it, so I am going to run....click clack click clack....

[bridget thronton]

I too like the need to know position. My wife and kids (and their spouses) need to know and close friends (surprise revelations would be bad). I might have told my parents if they were still alive. Beyond this group, not sure why they need this info if I am not living full-time as a woman.

[Jean 103]

Isha thank you for trying. Some people are judgmental, some open minded, some are prejudice, some caring, mean……… They are who they are and you are not likely to change them. What is private and what is not? If my coworker asks about my weekend and I say I took a weekend trip, am I required to describe what I was wearing. Maybe you have known you whole life or are just finding out about this life as a ________. Some people will not accept you and you may be cast out of their life, game over. Life is not black or white, it is shades of gray. Love Jean

[Lily Catherine]

I also believe in the need to know basis for those entitled to the truth. The word 'hide' has a very blatant negative connotation to it, tied to shame and dishonesty. And shaming can only be done from a high horse.

In my personal experience, I have so far told this group and a chosen few (family and friends) who deserve no sudden revelations / shouldn't have it hidden. Not anyone else's business by any means.

[Jenniferathome]

Isha, your comparison of telling an SO vs the world at large simply doesn't work. All the arguing here is about telling one's SO. That is special, unique, and incomparable case. My brother, butcher nor barber needs to know. I don't have the relationship with them that I do with my wife. Not even close. Everyone will come out at some point. By accident or by choice. At that time, they will be able to be objective about the time withholding.

[Gocaps14]

My SO is don't ask, don't tell....so I am not telling. No one else can make me happy, it comes from inside. I have repeatedly stated here that I feel it's okay to have private time. I feel that for my family this side of me should be private, maybe that will change in the future. It doesn't come from hiding anything or being embarrassed, it comes from many difficult discussions and what she feels comfortable with.

[Nikkilovesdresses]

None of us like being told what to do, least of all from a self perceived position of moral high ground. Plenty of crossdressers deal with shame enough already, without having more heaped on us.

Have you considered trading in the husky for a pug?? My mother had to take her husky back to the breeder- whenever she went out in the garden it kept nipping the backs of her legs and trying to shepherd her back to the house, perhaps in hopes of an early supper.

xNikki

[Leslie Langford]

All good points, Isha, but I think that in the case of a wife or an SO, it really comes down to whether or not the Cder comes clean at some point of her own volition, or else she is "outed" unexpectedly, and in a manner where she doesn't have some control over the narrative.

Those of us who feel that we can keep this secret under wraps indefinitely by being oh-so-careful to always cover our tracks are only fooling ourselves. At some point - and despite our best efforts - we will screw up, or else some expected event totally comes out of left field to expose us. It's not a matter of "if", it's a matter of "when". Call it intuition, or call it the proverbial "sixth sense" but on some level, the women in our lives will eventually just "know".

How our wife or SO will take the news can be the subject of endless speculation, but in the end, we will only know once those fateful words have left out mouths. As they used to say in those old Fram oil filter commercials "Pay me now, or pay me later..."

[Tracii G]

Deff on a need to know basis in my world.
How is it a lie if you don't tell people? I never quite understood that line of thought.
What I do is my business, some know and some don't.

[phylis anne]

Hey Isha ,That was very well said ,and as a former alaskan and dog musher well--------- huskies just wanna ruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuun! anyway here is my take


Yes I keep my self secret , as I do not want to tear up the family even at 60 yr old it is still a concern . I do not brood over it and go what about me and my feelings? . I have friends far and away from here who know and when I do go out it is annother local area so as not to create a situation of having to "explain" . I have 2 members of my family my daughter and my elderly mom who would understand ,however the rest would not ,so for the greater good I keep from all ,and find that I am not as stressed that way although lately I have been dropping some hints to test the waters ,in the end do the best for your own situation as only you and you alone know where your comfort zone is ,

[GretchenJ]

Hi Isha,

Just want to say a big thank you for putting together a well thought out and compassionate plea for those like me which are on the other side of the total disclosure defense! You did not to have to, because you and your SO are in total acknowledgement of what you do - but for me it is totally appreciated.

To me, ( and I am just talking about me, and no one else ), I see no scenario in which "the talk" goes well for either me or my wife.

Worst case scenario, my wife who I know for almost 30 years and love with all my wife , breaks up, so I live alone as a CD.

Next worst scenario, we live a DADT relationship, but my wife is smart and will know that any time we are apart, that the proposition of what I am even possibly doing will always be on her mind and eventually come to a head.

Or she is totally accepting of my condition, and allows me the opportunities as they come up. But she did not sign up for this, and she will try to be on board and even try to help me get out. But when the wig is back in the closet, our relationship will not be the same, and I love my relationship.

When me an my wife were going out, and if I know that this was going to extend beyond an occasional fetish (as it was in the early 1980's - before the Internet and all the crossdressers that I knew were the Las Vegas drag queens ) I would have told her and let the chips fall where they may. Am I guilty about this, ABSOLUTELY !! , there have been more than a couple of sleepless nights.

For those who have told there SO and the relationship works, I am very very happy for you guys ( no sarcasm intended). But I am not guilty, because that would assume that I would want a different relationship than I currently have with my wife ( and my best friend ) and that simply isn't true.


At the end of the day, I would not tell another member on this forum to tell there SO, or would I tell them to keep it a secret. I would not call them a cheater, a liar, a coward for not disclosure ( like I would be in a position to say that ! ), nor will I call someone stupid for telling and the relationship has gone bad, nor will I call them brave for having the talk.


i WILL offer best wishes and good luck for those who decide that they will tell their SO, I will offer my ear to listen and my shoulder to cry on (virtual shoulders and ears) when the relationship does not survive the talk. I will be truly happy for those whose relationship grows stronger as a result, and I will help to talk to those still in the closet and try to console and minimize the guilt of others.


Hugs to you Isha and a deep and profound thank you !
Your friend
Gretchen

[Isabella Ross]

Isha, I love your Saturday morning soapbox stints. They're thought-provoking and intriguing. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean I agree with all of them. Instead, I'd agree with Jennifer that it's a completely different thing to share your complete self with an SO, and revealing yourself to the world at large. Yes, in the spirit of doing something that's beneficial in the long run for all of us TG folk, we should out ourselves to the world. The problem is that, for most of us, doing this would have significant negative impacts on our life -- it could jeopardize our standing in our communities and neighbourhoods, restrict our ability to make a living, etc. But revealing to an SO (and even family members) is, in my opinion, something that's important for our mental health and self-acceptance. And it's also important to our SOs...it's the dishonesty of having a life secret from the person we share our lives, days and beds with that is ultimately so destructive when we're accidentally outed (and yes, I think that is bound to happen in the majority of instances). Can't wait for the counterpoint...

[Nadine Spirit]

I don't tell everyone in the world what my wife and I do "in bed." But you know who does know what happens in my bedroom, my wife.

I have told many people in my life, but not everyone. And I don't care if people think that is lying. For the only person that it does matter with is my wife. So much so, that there was never the thought of not telling her.

As I have discovered me, so has she.

[vicky_cd99_2]

Isha that was well put girl. We all have different circumstances we face. It took 20 years before I came out to my wife. It was all sunshine and roses, not a chance. It took sometime for her to come to accept that this is who I am. She also knows it will never go away. We are still together 16 years past out date. She did reveal to me that when I came out of the closet to her I threw her in it.

No one else knows anything about me. I live a seriously double life. I am around 1% patch holders a lot of the time. It could be physically harmful if outed. We all have our own demons we must face. I will not judge anyone of you for your situation as I hope I am afforded the same courtesy. We all have to live our lives as we see fit to. As long as our decisions do cause anyone else harm, what others think about should be no one elses concern.

[Jason+]

Isha's point is one I have pondered a lot myself. The basic question is "Are you honest without telling all if you advocate telling some as honesty?"

My parents through my life have told me they were proud of this or that. For a long time in the back of my head before they knew I would hear a voice asking "Oh yeah, would they still be proud if the knew what you were wearing?" I had figured even if my wife was comfortable with me in a skirt in our hometown (she's not) I wouldn't do it out of respect for them and the life they have built. Later after I talked to my Dad about it he said two things that stood out. "We want you to come home even if it's in a dress. A little warning would be nice but we want you any way we can get you." He also said that if putting on a skirt or dress is the worst thing I do I must be pretty okay.

The last decade I was in the Navy I didn't hide it although I didn't broadcast it either I just dealt with it as it came up. At my current job they see the (formerly) long hair and fingernails and on a rare occasion or two polish on the nails. According to CA law, Corporate Stated Policy and the training I could wear a skirt to work under gender expression or "not conforming to expected gender normals" they could not only not take negative action against me for it no one would be allowed to tease or harass me about it. CA is also an "at will" employment state leaving uncountable reasons to let a body go besides some non-conformism and the burden of proof would be on me. Not having a job make that a little more difficult.

Is it fair of me to "impose" myself on group "Q" and not group "W?" Is it dishonest of me not to trumpet it from the south tower of the data center rather than offer people when asked about my weekend plans the quarter truth that "I'm going to dress in drag and bother Thespians!" and wait for the eventuality that a customer or coworker (some know) will see and say something to my employer? (Keeping in mind that what I do isn't capable of or intended to be drag quality. :D)

I will add operational risk management to the already stated need to know. In deciding if someone needs to know beyond just encountering me by chance in public I try to look at what the potential risk is to them (and me) and the likelihood of that risk happening. Whether that is "true honesty," ORM or a dose of good ol' grade A garden variety BS is something I ponder and pick at an mull over fairly often. The accurate answer will probably be expressed in terms of percentage.

[grace7777]

Now I am single, but I think a marital relationship is different from other relationships. You make vows and commitments that you do not make in other relationships. Also the costs of ending a marital relationship, financially and emotionally is much greater than almost any other relationship. Because of this I think a marital relationship requires more disclosure than most others.

In other relationships I think it depends on the closeness of the relationship and the need to know. With most people we know, they do not need to know and often do not even want to know.

Now my mother is someone I now feel I need to tell,and I struggle with the fact that I did not tell her over the holiday season when visiting her. I do feel guilty about not doing it. Hopefully in the future I will tell her.

If I had a friend who hated people who crossdress, I think I would not consider them much of a friend any more, and would try to avoid future contact with them.

I have now decided that if someone asks me to the effect, do I dress up as a woman, I will either say yes or I will decline to answer the question. This way I am not lying to them. Recently someone I know asked me if I crossdressed, and I told her I did, and showed her my profile on this website. She had no problem with it.

[JessicaJHall]

"sabres at dawn and don't forget your second.
LOL.
Excellent post Isha. I agree it's not fair to criticize others who are just trying to balance their lives (if that's what you are saying? If not set me straight). I think like any group with a single thing in common, we should really try to understand we have our own individual paths to follow, that are just as diverse as all other humans are. We share another tendency with humankind at large in that we will gravitate to the idea that what works for us, should work for everyone else, and may even get frustrated when they are less than receptive to the idea. Or that we know what is best for the "hive".
For me, the perfect balance involves not involving others just yet, and I am experiencing a time in my life that can only be described as transcendent, with my forays into femulation as a small, but significant component.
That boat may get rocked accidentally, but I have prepared myself for that, and I can accept the consequences.

And those who think that not disclosing going into a relationship is lying, cheating, etc., well they might want to look at the things they may have left out going in. For example, maybe they don't really like sex or certain types of sex that they were willing to engage in before they got hitched. Is that a lie? Or maybe they have appetites for unusual things, narcissism, sociopathic tendencies, addictions to drugs, alcohol, food, exercise, anorexia, bulimia, sex, to name a few. Or maybe they really wanted someone else, and feel they missed out?

Now that I think of it 100% honesty is not only rare, but just might be the enemy of the healthy relationship.
Not that sharing can't be a wonderful thing, depending on the situation.
Oh, and how about discussing past relationships? Anyone keeping it 100% honest? And if so, hows that working for you?

[harmony]

i see myself as an open book.i wont volunteer my innermost secrets but if you would ask me a direct question i would answer truthfully.my uppermost concern in telling people is wether THEY can handle it.i know,having accepted myself that i can.

[pamela7]

Thank you, and well said Isha,

I'm right in the middle of the quandrary of disclosing, already have to my SO, mum, daughters and couple of others.

What I want to do is to dress all the time, that's now clear to me, and obviously that has an affect at work and locally. I could/probably would lose clients, clearly a financial impact, perhaps I'd gain new ones though. My daughter tells me i'm more approachable dressed, so maybe it works.

It's not a lie to hide what goes on in the bedroom, cos frankly, everyone does. Being a therapist, I can safely say there's nothing left to shock me about humans. It's not relevant to most jobs to know about sexual orientations/habits imo, and if prejudice is going to affect prospects - it does - then by all means keep it quiet.

So, the real thing about us, is our desire to wear the clothes. If there's nothing else different, it does not have to change the perception of anyone else. Or perhaps it does, perhaps coming out will help make society more tolerant not less?

xxx Pamela

[kimdl93]

Lying, to varying extents, is as much a human feature as written language and tool making. I'll allow that sometimes a lie can be the most humane, safe or profitable option. Of course, we all know that deceit comes with risks, sometimes massively heavy ones, and can be corrosive of ones self worth.

I still have a hard time with the assertion that a truth not told constitutes a lie. Non disclosure can be benign or deliberately destructive. I can withhold information to protect myself or another person, or withhold information that could keep someone else from harm. It's my prerogative. Each truth told or untold, anything consciously shared or withheld has the potential for good or ill.

But then life is risk. If you want to be coldly analytical, this is all an imprecise game of risk management. Weighing the risk of voluntarily sharing or concealment is a personal assessment of that risk. If one deems the likely reaction to be seriously adverse, the personal emotional burden bearable and the risk of discovery relatively low, then one may reasonably choose nondisclosure as the course that seems to have the lowest potential cost. Time will tell.

[Gillian Gigs]

I sum it up by says do they need to know. Will knowing, or not knowing make any major difference in the relationship? I have personal things I don't tell others, like how much money I have in the bank, the acct. number and pin numbers. To thy own self be true, some things are best left unsaid and only the individual can determine that.

[ReineD]

I don't think we can compare a spousal relationship with everyone else either. Here's an analogy:

If your wife had had a baby before she met you and had put it up for adoption, would you be upset if she had never told you? You can compare this to a CDer who used to CD during his teenage years, stopped, and never told his wife.

But then if the wife re-established a relationship with the child; if, with the adoptive parents' blessing, she spent regular time with the child (several times per week) but hid her whereabouts from you for years and years, spent money on the child, looked forward to you going away on trips so that she could see her child and relished every moment when you were gone, etc, how would you feel?

I think it is a rare person who would not feel betrayed, who would not wonder why his wife did not trust him with that information and why she had been so afraid to say something, who would not wonder if there were other things the wife had not disclosed, and who would not question the very foundational trust of their marriage.

[Donnagirl]

Hey Isha,

I can only agree.... My husky (with a little German shepherd mixed in) has all the obedience skills of a petulant toddler... If she gets away, I've learnt to just let her be... She comes home when she gets hungry!!!

As for the tell / don't tell, honesty vs dishonesty... Well I can't really talk. I'm just home from a housewarming party. Every intention to boy mode it, but by midnight and two bottles of wine later, I'm in a frock!!! Apparently people get a little disappointed if Donna doesn't make an appearance. But that's the result of everyone knowing.

[flatlander_48]

There are many shades and gradients to the transgender spectrum. We all have our own motivations and derive different things from what we do. Everyone's situation is unique. There is no One Size Fits All. For some, keeping their private lives private may be a much more useful path than outing themselves. We can't answer that for anyone other than ourselves. To attempt to do so would be ludicrous.

[SharonDenise]

I came out to my wife while we were still dating. I knew that cross dressing was such a part of me that I would not be able to walk away from it. Fortunately, she gave me her support and her pink baby doll pajamas. She alone shared my secret for 40+ years until she died last year. Since then, I have told a couple of others including my oldest daughter. I didn't want her wondering why my closet and drawers were full of woman's clothing in case she ever had to go through them. I have yet to tell my other daughter. I have also recently joined Chi Chapter of Chicago and have enjoyed going to their meetings and events. Its fun getting dressed up and finally having a place to go. As far as telling the world, we can't all be Ellen DeGeneres and proudly proclaim who we are. She and a few others are in unique positions to proudly proclaim their positions and be lauded for it. The rest of us have to fear how this will affect us if we are found out. In some middle Eastern countries, I speculate that we would be put to death. Yeah for living in America!

[Valerie Louise]

Isha -
I'm former military also, Naval Officer in nuke boats. Integrity was everything there because your life, and everyone else's on the boat, depended on it. You were SF as I recall, so same deal - it sets a personal standard.
My opinion is that in this situation, only one person can assess whether you have crossed some ethical line of honesty - you. In my case, I waited too long to tell my SO, and admit that in that former period, I was lying to her, and my personal assessment of my actions is that I was wrong in not giving her the option earlier to bale.
I see no reason to tell anyone else, and yup, my assessment of that is that I am lying to them.
Lots of reasons why I allow myself this transgression.
However, these assessments are limited to one person ... me. Calling someone else out on this, when you do not know the name of their dog or the make of their car ... nope, that is not allowed. This is a support site for a lot of people that are in serious pain. Dumping on them is outrageous.
About a year ago I defended a gurl that was getting pummeled on this site for not being sensitive to his SO ... so I got pummeled as well.
The "pummelee" thanked me and that was the end of it.
But wow ... imagine this. We are on a site for folks that are in constant fear of being negatively judged ... and someone HERE judges them?
I have to say it amazes me when I see it and it limits the amount of posting I do here. You drew me out. Well done.

Oh, and yes, I would say you have more courage than I do in this area.

[Teresa]

Isha,
I feel the honesty issue hinges on the type of CDer you are ! The forum has certainly shown me that it's not a straight foward issue of just wanting to dress up.
If you're the type that just love wearing the clothes in private, maybe the need is not as strong to come out, why upset other people over an enjoyable hobby !!
In my case it started at about 8-9 years and was sexual from the start, I desperately wanted to share it with a female and that basic feeling has never gone away, it eats at you every day without a break ! So in my forties the pressure was too much, I had to open up to my wife and tell her but she listened and accepted so much but refused to be part of it . Eventually I went into a downward spiral of rejection and not feeling loved, almost ending in suicde !
Now in my sixties the way forward for me is to be openly honest because I've reached a mental block with my CDing , the only way out of it is to stop hiding, with the associated lies and deceit that go with it ! But it's not going well and after all these years what real harm can it now do ?

I do find it perplexing when members preach open honesty, holding nothing back ! Telling your partner despite the dressing that the man is still there to love and care of them ! All that is fine if the partner wants to hear it and responds in a favourable way !

Isha no one likes to resort to lies and deceit but sometimes there isn't a choice ! Despite it making you mentally or physically ill !!

[Marcelle]

Hi all,

Thanks much for your replies and comments. Before I begin with as Isabella says "counterpoint" :), I want to state, I am not saying your opinion doesn't count, I am right or you are wrong . . . there is just diametrically opposing opinions and this is my take on it. So to the counterpoint.


Isha, your comparison of telling an SO vs the world at large simply doesn't work. All the arguing here is about telling one's SO. That is special, unique, and incomparable case. My brother, butcher nor barber needs to know . . .


. . . I'd agree with Jennifer that it's a completely different thing to share your complete self with an SO, and revealing yourself to the world at large. Yes, in the spirit of doing something that's beneficial in the long run for all of us TG folk, we should out ourselves to the world. The problem is that, for most of us, doing this would have significant negative impacts on our life -- it could jeopardize our standing in our communities and neighbourhoods, restrict our ability to make a living, etc. But revealing to an SO (and even family members) is, in my opinion, something that's important for our mental health and self-acceptance . . . Can't wait for the counterpoint...


I don't think we can compare a spousal relationship with everyone else either.

Jenn, Reine, Isabella,

You missed the point of my post. I do not argue for one second that a relationship with an SO is very different than other relationships. If a CDer chooses to disclose to their SO for whatever reason (a need, caught) that is their choice. My point is that many who have chosen this road are the first to raise the "You must do this banner" and to not do so makes you a "coward, liar, deceitful". If you are going to tell someone they are a liar or deceitful because they choose not disclose you can't say on one hand when it comes to an "admission of fact (I like to dress in women's clothing)" . . . it is a lie when it is your SO but it is not when it comes to family and friends because they don't have a need to know. I have no issue with someone saying "Hey, you know I told my SO and it was the most liberating thing in my life and now we are in a good place but that is me and your circumstances may be different from mine" . . . which is different from "What you need to do is tell your wife because if you don't you are a liar and a coward"



... I agree it's not fair to criticize others who are just trying to balance their lives (if that's what you are saying? If not set me straight). I think like any group with a single thing in common, we should really try to understand we have our own individual paths to follow, that are just as diverse as all other humans are. We share another tendency with humankind at large in that we will gravitate to the idea that what works for us, should work for everyone else, and may even get frustrated when they are less than receptive to the idea. Or that we know what is best for the "hive".

Hi Julie,

That is exactly what I was trying to say. To each their own and don't judge a person's decision based on your own decisions. Advise yes, judge no.


... But then life is risk. If you want to be coldly analytical, this is all an imprecise game of risk management. Weighing the risk of voluntarily sharing or concealment is a personal assessment of that risk. If one deems the likely reaction to be seriously adverse, the personal emotional burden bearable and the risk of discovery relatively low, then one may reasonably choose nondisclosure as the course that seems to have the lowest potential cost. Time will tell.

Hi Kim,

I agree if we remove the emotional aspect of the relationship, some will go into cold analytical mode of risk management. This illustrates nicely that for each of us the decision to disclose or not is based not on what one person believes is right or wrong but how it will affect us in the long run. Is it right? Perhaps not but then again perhaps it is the best way forward.


Isha,
I feel the honesty issue hinges on the type of CDer you are ! The forum has certainly shown me that it's not a straight foward issue of just wanting to dress up.
If you're the type that just love wearing the clothes in private, maybe the need is not as strong to come out, why upset other people over an enjoyable hobby !!

Hi Teresa,

I agree on this point. I really depends where you are in your dressing. If it is something that is becoming pervasive to the point where it is affecting your ability to function either at home or the world writ large then perhaps the talk is the best way forward. However, if you function normally, are a decent, caring and supportive person then compartmentalization may be best suited at that juncture.

Final point . . . all relationships are not equal. For each of us who have hit the jackpot when it comes to a fully supportive spouse, I suspect there are several who love their SO unconditionally and also know that disclosure will destroy the relationship beyond repair. They are not being cowards or liars just pragmatic within the confines of their relationship but they go on to be a wonderful and caring spouse/partner.

Hugs

Isha

[Caden Lane]

Hello Isha,

I recently touched on this loosely on my blog. It was about being authentic to who you are. After a while those lies by omission mount up on the person telling them. In a perfect world, I would tell my family members. But it would redefine my family dynamic, turning me into a black sheep. I often advocate telling spouses or potential spouses; however I try to never throw it down as a dare or gauntlet. I try to make sure the potential consequences are well known. I tend to look at it as more of helping a sister make an educated decision.

But I feel our spouse above anyone else deserves and needs to know; it is their world dynamic that will be changed the most.

Ever & Always,
Caden Lane

[Isabella Ross]

Isha. Thank you for the clarification. In this, we are on the same page. Advise, but don't judge. Probably should have had that second cup of coffee before I read your post...

[ReineD]

. . . which is different from "What you need to do is tell your wife because if you don't you are a liar and a coward"

I agree with you there. Defining someone as a coward does no one any good. Deciding to not tell may be motivated by prudence (is there an existing lack of trust in the relationship … will the spouse or girlfriend tell everyone else when they break up), fear (a very human emotion that everyone experiences), guilt, and shame among other things. But is this person lying? Lying is a harsh word. It implies engaging in an action for one's own gain, despite potential negative effects to the person being lied to.

But, would you say that the wife in my example above who does not disclose having had a child prior to her marriage and further who does not disclose an ongoing relationship with this child and how much she looks forward to her husband going away so she can see the child, who does not disclose taking money from the family budget for gifts, outings, maybe even help with college, a liar? Is she in fact lying and would her husband suffer from negative effects if he were to find out fully about the situation after his wife's passing? Would he suffer from betrayal, wondering why his wife didn't trust him with the information, wondering if there were other things the wife had not disclosed, maybe even wondering how much is wife loved him?

What do you think?

[Bria]

Wow, Reine, you sure know how upset our complacent apple cart! You are quite right to bring up such an analogy as it well frames the dilemma faced by many of us regarding events in our past as well as our present.

I guess I don't see it as lying when we don't say anything, lying is saying something that isn't true. However, should we volunteer every thing that we ever did or thought, that is another issue that doesn't have one right answer.

Hugs, Bria

[Tiffany Jane]

:hiding:

Is it safe to come out now? Isha, thanks for reminding us all to be ourselves, without implying others should or would be able to travel upon paths that their lives may not have led them to or down yet.

[Katey888]

Hi... my name's not really Katey and I'm a liar. :) I haven't lied for about 2 hours...

I've lied and omitted in my personal life and I've been paid to lie and omit professionally in every job I've had. I know for a fact my dear wife is a liar, and I love her no less for that fact. My - somewhat cynical- view of humanity is that we all have the propensity for falsehood and that there are few remaining candidates for sainthood, certainly not hanging around here...

Thanks for restating reality again Isha - seems like having a husky moment is good for creativity. :)

To those of you who believe nothing is hidden between you and you partner, please do appreciate that the way many others have right up to the point something pops out unexpectedly... And if it never does, then think yourself lucky... or just that they're a good liar too...

I don't have to challenge anyone who thinks me a coward - I'm a grown-up and I have to live with my actions and their consequences, and I do and will. I truly feel for the many here who have no choice about telling, and perhaps there's a twist of envy towards those who don't have to - that would be a human reaction (rather than saintly...) but I do think it's irresponsible and unsophisticated to peddle one agenda as being the 'right' one when clearly, every situation is unique.

A respected British politician of the early 1900s - Nye Bevan - used to say in conversation: "I'll tell you my truth and then you can tell me yours..."

Katey x

[Angie G]

If one tells someone that he isn't a crossdresser but is a liar. If one just never tell someone what they do is not lying. I came out to my wife and no one else. Why do others need to know all my matters.:hugs:
Angie

[ReineD]

Katey, "lying" is a word, a label that admittedly has negative connotations. No one wants to be called a liar. Other, more forgiving words are "non-disclosure", or "privacy" even. Those other words are good too, since there are many motives, in many different situations, for not disclosing the entire truth.

I'm not wanting to debate what to call it, nor am I wondering about the motives behind the non-disclosure. I'm rather interested in knowing how you, Isha, and others would feel if you were the husband in my scenario posts #26 and #35. It's more about how your wife's actions/decisions might affect you if you were the husband.

Why is no one answering this question?

[Leah Lynn]

My late wife and I had soooo many conversations in the 39 years we knew each other. Many, many times there were little implications that I was different. I finally told her everything about my wanting to be female all my life, following a Halloween party we held. So many years of hiding, denying myself, that one night of being dressed burst the dam. It took a little while for her to digest that. Though she was supportive of LGBT, it was quite different, it being her husband. In the end she became supportive, and we had a few evenings out as the girls. I did not tell her a lie. Or did I? I tried desperately to be a man for many years.

Had I told her everything early on, perhaps I could have transitioned years ago. I'll never know the answer to that, so I won't ponder it, but perhaps it could save someone else a lifetime of living a lie. Tell / Don't tell; it has to be the decision of of the individual, depending on SO's beliefs, social acceptance, attitude, whatever else will influence their acceptance / rejection. I feel it is a very private decision to make.

Leah

[Marcelle]

. . . But, would you say that the wife in my example above who does not disclose having had a child prior to her marriage and further who does not disclose an ongoing relationship with this child and how much she looks forward to her husband going away so she can see the child, who does not disclose taking money from the family budget for gifts, outings, maybe even help with college, a liar? Is she in fact lying and would her husband suffer from negative effects if he were to find out fully about the situation after his wife's passing? Would he suffer from betrayal, wondering why his wife didn't trust him with the information, wondering if there were other things the wife had not disclosed, maybe even wondering how much is wife loved him?

What do you think?

Hi Reine,

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner . . . fighting the collapse of my hard drive on my desk top so I had to move to my laptop. Good question. I suppose if it were me and I saw money disappearing from our account at a rapid rate I would ask what that is all about at which case I think my wife would have to come up with a good story or be busted. So this would be like the CDer who tries to hide it and can't because it is so central to his life that he can't live without it and gets busted. Back to your scenario . . . if I found out due to the withdrawal of cash I would be there to support her and this is not hindsight because she is supporting me in my TG journey but because it is obviously a big part of her life and important to her. I would encourage her to cultivate her relationship and help her if she asked. I would not think she was a liar but might ask why she was afraid to tell me. I would not feel betrayed because that is part of her life which she felt she needed to compartmentalize for whatever reason.

Now if I found out say after she passed away, completely out of the blue with no inkling of another child and they reached out to me. I might be a bit taken aback and to be honest might want some proof if a stranger came up to me and said they were my wife's child and I might wonder why she chose not to tell me. However, it is her life. The child poses no threat to me, my relationship or my love for my wife . . . she does not all of a sudden become a bad person because there is something I never knew about her. She merely becomes the same "light of my life" with a child I never knew about . . . that's all. I could not feel betrayed as she has done nothing to betray my trust.

In the end keeping something personal to yourself within a relationship is not betrayal of trust unless it harms the core of relationship. So if my wife cheated on me with my best friend in a moment of poor indiscretion and I found out, would I forgive her? I would like to think so and I would work with her to make our relationship strong again. If she continued to cheat then that is a betrayal of trust and I would call the relationship at that point.

For a man who CDs, does nothing to harm his family (e.g., doesn't spend the family fortune), is a decent and caring partner, supportive husband and father . . . his dressing does not change that . . . he is the same person. If the SO finds out and cannot abide by that and somehow believes the person she loved is now amoral and less than a man because she has bought into what society deems as masculine well then perhaps it is time to walk a separate path. However, she is condemning a person based on presentation and not judging the core of the person (good and decent) but again that is her choice. I get that if a wife finds out and wants her husband to either not continue or stay in the house and all of a sudden finds out he is not abiding by the mutually agreed upon accord then yes . . . that can be construed as betrayal of trust because something was mutually agreed upon and broken by one party.

Hugs

Isha

[Katey888]

Reine, you know I have a great deal of respect for your opinions and perspectives here, but that's all any of us can offer - and they're all largely based on personal experience and beliefs. You can't reason against beliefs, but you can construct a hypothetical situation to demonstrate pretty much anything you want to. I'd rather refer to personal experience which has served to shape my beliefs...

My first long term partner lied about a previous relationship (that it had ended and it had not) and my wife did the same as well as portraying aspects of her sexuality in a more favourable light (read into that what you will). It doesn't change the way I feel about her, just what I know. If you're trying to demonstrate there's some consistency in human reactions I think that's flawed. There are no standards for ethical behaviour any more - reactions can be wildly different and unique and generally are. We can choose to be more or less affected by others actions but our circumstances and beliefs also impact that. I think Isha is just trying to remind everyone that few people here are wearing a clean shirt ( or blouse...;)) and that sanctimoniousness of the like often associated with ex-smokers is at least unbecoming and can be irresponsible. But we're a public forum... joining and participation standards struggle to be any lower, much as I like most of what goes on here... :D

As to answering your ethical behavioural question - don't see the relevance... hypothetical and circumstantial at best.. sorry... :)

Katey x

[ReineD]

It's true that I'm coming at this from the perspective of a supportive partner; I don't think that my SO is somehow "bad" for wanting to express herself. This is why I would have been upset had s/he not disclosed.

I think that a husband's overall behavior has more weight for most GGs than just the fact that he crossdresses. For example, when dressed is s/he the same person? Does s/he respect his/her wife? For more detailed examples of things that can go wrong, have a look here (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?223656-Dislikes-GG-responses-only).

But, if a husband does Not behave in the negative ways described in some of those posts, if he is still a caring spouse and doesn't obsess about it when not CDing, if he is present in his marriage while CDed and in guy mode, then I think that (many? most?) wives would be OK with it (look here (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?223655-Likes-GG-Responses-only) as well). She may not embrace it totally right away … it may take a while for a wife to learn about this, to rid herself of any preconceived ideas and discover what it means to her husband specifically, it does take a lot of communication, and also wives do vary in their levels of comfort with going out and telling a lot of people (some may prefer to just keep it at home if they believe the CDing is stigmatized in their neck of the woods), but we do have tons of evidence (http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/tags.php?tag=accepting+wives) in this forum that lots of wives support this.

It is tricky to decide whether or not to tell and navigating the waters after telling needs to be done with great sensitivity and care. But if a wife finds out other than having had her husband tell her, she will feel lied to even if this was not her husband's intent. I would have. And THAT'S the focus here … how will she FEEL when she finds out, not what word you might use to describe his non-disclosure.

Oh … and I would never call a non-disclosing CDer a liar or a coward. Never. On the other hand, I would feel as if I were lying to my husband, if I were not disclosing the fact that I loved a child that I had given up for adoption and this child was now a part of my life.

What can I say.

[Katie Russell]

Firstly I'll answer Reine's question. No it wouldn't worry me at all and I'd like to think that I'd treat any child of my SO as a member of the family.

Secondly I don't get this need to have to tell your SO. I believe it is a matter of personal choice and nobody here has the right to tell you otherwise. You are the best person to decide when and if to tell. Yes there is a risk that you are found out and the consequences could be dire but there are also risks in telling. Can you ever 100% know your SO? If you believe that you do then maybe you are naive. I just read a thread from a member who posted that his ex had just called off the engagement and told all his friends about his crossdressing. He's devastated. In the UK 42% of marriages end in divorce - the person you loved without question suddenly isn't the right one. Not what you signed up for at the time. People change for better or for worse.There are plenty of bitter ex-spouses out there!

Maybe this is a bit of a cynical view or maybe it's just realistic. Letting your head rule your heart maybe the right call. Weigh up the risks and decide what is best for you.

For the record I've been married for over 22 years and my SO found out 2 years ago. I had no intention of telling my SO. It had been something that I'd kept to myself for many years and something I didn't feel I needed to share. That may have changed over time but at the time I felt it was right. I love my wife and I don't think it made me a bad person for not telling. I believe that I continue to be a good husband and father.

I only found this site after my SO found out in my search for answers. Had I found it before then maybe I would have felt some pressure to disclose. We need a balanced view here and nobody should be cajoled into doing something they don't feel right about doing. Peer pressure can be a dangerous thing.

I know from experience what we write in our posts can be mis-inturpruted. I have found that other members have been offended by my comments and I have had to explain to them personally what I actually meant. It is always difficult to express in so few word how you actually feel. I have never intended to offend anyone and have always tried to choose my words carefully. Some people tend to be quick in handing out the advice without actually taking any responsibility for the consequences. Feel free to express what worked for you but don't try an force it on anyone else.

Katie

[NicoleScott]

. . . if you are going espouse honesty and integrity as buzz words in your life, then commence your own personal allocution to the world writ large before passing judgment on others. However, even doing so would not give you the moral high ground over those who have not come out to everyone . . . it is only a choice you made and not necessarily the choice required of others.

Isha, my first impression of your post/rant was that I'm a hypocrite if I'm out to my wife (true) but not my family/friends/co-corkers (also true). But I read on...
My next impression is that my first impression isn't right, that what you mean is members shouldn't encourage others to come out to anyone unless/until they come out to everyone. But I read on....
Then your last comments (quoted) undo everything you said earlier. So I guess all I'm left with is that you need to cut down on Red Bull before your Saturday morning logon to the forum. haha

[Jason+]

Why is no one answering this question?

Hypothetical or not, both my wife and I each brought 2 children each from our first marriages. We both love and treat all of them as our own. To learn after her death of a third that was kept from me would probably hurt. I would wonder why such an important part of her had been kept completely from me. Even if I accept the tenet that the two are a little apple and orange comparison the underlying question of "how would you feel" is still valid.

I think the difficulty in answering the question is that a lot of people would feel hurt about the omission and to admit that would bring with it guilt about potentially doing the same.

[donnalee]

This reminds me of the Lenny Bruce line "I tell my wife everything - because I want to hurt her!".

Reticence in coming out may be the best thing for a given relationship. How you live your life is your own business unless it hurts me or mine and I wouldn't presume to comment.

Renee, that' an interesting example you gave because that actually happened to me. As my SO lay dying in a hospital, her daughter from a previous marriage told me that she had a half sister living in Japan. I think my SO was talking about her own sister and her daughter may have misunderstood, but the possibility still exists. I gave this some thought and came to the conclusion that this would have made absolutely no difference in our relationship, other than making provisions as necessary if there were personal or financial needs. Whatever went to make her the person I loved was OK; she was the product of those experiences and would not have been the same person without them.

[AngelaYVR]

I like Raine's argument except that this isn't the beginning of the 20th century any more and a child out of wedlock will not bring the same clucking of tongues as a husband in knickers will should it all go pear shaped. If I had told wife #1, it would have gone very, very badly, I know that for a fact.

[Marcelle]

... My next impression is that my first impression isn't right, that what you mean is members shouldn't encourage others to come out to anyone unless/until they come out to everyone. ....So I guess all I'm left with is that you need to cut down on Red Bull before your Saturday morning logon to the forum. haha

Hi Nicole,

LOL ... nope your second impression was the correct one. Merely wanted to point out that if someone is going to harp on a member for not telling their SO because they are being dishonest then look to your backyard first to see how honest you are in your life and not just with your SO. If you have told your SO and are happy with whatever arrangement you have achieved, and offer balanced advice based on personal experience . . . no concerns.

Hugs

Isha

[Sonya]

Why is no one answering this question?

If this happened initially I would be upset, hurt and my mind will wonder what else is not disclosed BUT I am very sure I will accept the fact and will try to incorporate it into our lives as long as we still have a loving relationship and mostly satisfy each other’s needs. I certainly will not forbid her having a relationship with her child but encourage it since I know how important it will be for her well being. I will try to understand why she kept this information from me and process all the information logically and I don't think it will end the relationship.

But all of this is hypothetical and there will be so many other variables in real life which will dictate how things will pan out.