View Full Version : My wife's message to other wives of CD'ers on another forum ...
pamela7
02-07-2015, 06:39 PM
Below is her text, reproduced here, with her permission, cos I think it shows how we might expect to be supported:
"
My husband has been wearing ladies underwear in bed and occasionally under his clothes since before I met him 12 years ago. Recently, he has realised that he is actually much happier if he is wearing ladies clothes on the outside too.
As the wife of a cross dresser, I have been looking round the internet, and came across this site. I have a few comments and a few questions for the ladies who post here.
Seventy years ago, it was absolutely not done for ladies to wear men’s clothes - it was considered far too masculine and quite frankly, scandalous. Today, how many of you wear trousers on a regular or even daily basis? Nobody even bats an eyelid, and men’s clothes are a staple of virtually every western lady’s wardrobe.
Also, how many of you indulge in pastimes which used to be considered a male preserve? DIY? Painting the house? Digging the garden? Looking after the car? Or do you limit yourself to traditionally ‘female’ pursuits such as cooking and dressmaking (where the vast majority of the famous names at the top of these areas are actually male)?
It seems that it is perfectly acceptable for women to encroach into the male world, but if men dare to have a feminine side then they have to hide it from everyone around them. We want our men to be caring, sensitive, considerate, thoughtful - all feminine traits - but not to express any other aspect of balance between feminine and masculine. Women, on the other hand, can behave either masculine or feminine, and nobody complains at all.
Our husbands have entrusted us with the deepest, most precious secret of their soul - because they love us and trust us. Some of them have felt nervous about sharing this secret because they fear the reaction from the people that they tell, and to be honest, having seen the way that you write about your husbands on here, they were right to be afraid.
I totally understand that knowing about cross dressing means a shift in the way you see your husband. He is no longer the macho man that you thought you married, he has another side to him that does not fit the image any more.
Lots of things can change our image of the person that we have chosen to spend our life with. What if he was involved in an accident, and had scarring all over his face? What if he lost an arm? What if he developed diabetes and became impotent? Would these mean that you would stop loving him, that you would ridicule him, belittle him, embarrass him at every opportunity?
I am sure not. He is still the same person. You would support him, and continue to be the loving wife that you were before that thing happened. Of course there would be some adjustments to make for both of you, but these would not be grounds for cruel and vicious behaviour towards him.
Cross dressing is not a disease, like cancer. It is not a medical condition, like kidney failure. It is not a psychiatric condition, like anorexia. It is not an addiction, like gambling. It is not something that can be ‘cured’ with treatment. It is an expression of a side of the personality that society has suppressed for perhaps the whole life so far. It is more like being told that you can never tell anyone that you like the colour blue, or the feel of velvet, or the scent of a flower.
Some of our husbands have hidden this from us for years in fear of how we would react if we were told. Some of them have been open from the start. Whichever, they have now plucked up the courage to tell us and share it with the one person who should be there for them and support them.
Lots of them could have handled it better, through embarrassment, awkwardness, fear or simply not appreciating that they are sharing with us something that has been going on for years for them, and that it might take us a considerable time to adjust and catch up.
How can you say that you loved your husband and not support him in his hour of need? How can you be so cruel to him? How can you spend all your time making him feel ‘suitably ashamed’ (as one person recently posted)? You play the victim, but you spend your time persecuting him relentlessly for daring to challenge your view of what a man should be.
Did you love the man, or just your constructed image of him?
"
any comments? xxx Pamela
Kathyxd
02-07-2015, 06:46 PM
A quite stunning answer/explanation. Pamela, you have a remarkable Wife.
Thanks for sharing
Beverley Sims
02-07-2015, 06:49 PM
Pamela,
I like your wife's understanding and the arguments she puts forward. I hope it will help some other wives and partners temper their somewhat severe views also.
JayeLefaye
02-07-2015, 07:38 PM
Oh my! Ain't you the lucky one!!! I'd say that I hope you count your blessings every day, but I suspect that you do:-)
Please give her my personal thanks, and treat her as one to be treasured!
Jaye
Victoria Demeanor
02-07-2015, 07:42 PM
Pamela,
Thank you for posting this...It really helps so insightful.
Victoria ;)
Jenniferathome
02-07-2015, 08:05 PM
...Cross dressing is not a disease, like cancer. It is not a medical condition, like kidney failure. It is not a psychiatric condition, like anorexia. It is not an addiction, like gambling. It is not something that can be ‘cured’ with treatment. It is an expression of a side of the personality that society has suppressed for perhaps the whole life so far. It is more like being told that you can never tell anyone that you like the colour blue, or the feel of velvet, or the scent of a flower.
...
I like this. Really well stated.
Sarina Curtis
02-07-2015, 08:14 PM
Thank you for sharing that. It definitely inspires hope for those of us whose wives are having a harder time adjusting to their husband's other side.
Linda Leigh
02-07-2015, 08:21 PM
Pamela, your wife has put into words what alot of us have felt for years.
Thank You
Linda Leigh
Sierra_juliette
02-07-2015, 08:24 PM
Perfectly beautifully stated!
nikki2014
02-07-2015, 09:22 PM
As a few tears roll down my face . . . thanks so much for sharing. Very well stated. Nikki
Tiffanyselkoe
02-07-2015, 09:32 PM
All I can say is wow. You are lucky to have such an open minded wife. :)
AccidentalDresser
02-07-2015, 09:34 PM
WOW indeed.
She hasnt just rocked the boat with this on, she has turned the boat over & started banging the pasengers over the head with the oars.
Your wife is one special lady & completely individual by the sounds of it.
Luckiest husband alive you are.
MissTee
02-07-2015, 09:39 PM
Awesome post. Give that lady a hugs from all of us.
kinkyboots
02-07-2015, 09:40 PM
That was such a great speech, loved every word of it. She's a keeper.
Suzie Petersen
02-07-2015, 09:40 PM
Whew Pamela! That was a good read.
Please thank your lovely wife and let her know she is appreciated. And btw, there is an election coming up next year!! Is she considering running perhaps?? <lol>
- Suzie
Erika Lyne
02-07-2015, 09:53 PM
Thanks Pamela,
Your wife has just stated in First Person terms what I've been trying to say to my wife. Just beautiful. My wife supports my CDing but is unsure where we stand at times.
Thank your wife from my wife and myself.
-E
SharonDenise
02-07-2015, 10:58 PM
Wow! Thank you for your wonderful and insightful posting. Fortunately, my wife was as supportive as you seem to be!
Lady Catherine
02-07-2015, 11:13 PM
Simply beautiful. Give your wife a hug for me and tell her thank you. She deserves it. Peace.
Robin777
02-07-2015, 11:15 PM
Pamela
I have a supporting wife as you do. Your wife stated it perfectly. I think what your wife has written should be read by the wife of every member on this forum. It is perfectly stated. Thank you for sharing this.
~Joanne~
02-07-2015, 11:23 PM
Your wife's response and understanding are beyond amazing. She really is a very strong, smart, and supportive woman and you should be counting your blessings everyday. My SO mirrors her, with support and acceptance, but could never put it into words such as your wife did (her words, not mine, because I had to have her read this). Thank her from the both of us :D
S. Lisa Smith
02-07-2015, 11:51 PM
Your wife is wonderful!! Treasure her!!!!! Please tell her how much we all appreciate her outlook on our CDing!!!!!
DorothyElizabeth
02-08-2015, 12:17 AM
I like the way she has put it. As I was reading I was reminded of two things: First, Kate Hepbrun scandalized all of Hollywood when she insisted on wearing "mannish" clothing; and, my great-great Aunt (born in 1835) who became a world-renowned photomicroscopist, was awarded an Honorary medal at the 1895 St Louis Exposition, and was the first female invited to join the Royal London Society of Microscopists. (She was also a member of the DAR, but we won't hold that against her). She scandalized the Town of Longmeadow, MA< when she hitchd her skirts p to her knees, and waded into the town pond to collect specimins for her work. (That would have been in about 1870.)
Admittedly, I am going in the opposite direction, but I suppose I "come by it honestly", as they say. :-)
Here is a photo of her taken by my grandfather, while she was at her workbench in 1915240642
justmetoo
02-08-2015, 12:58 AM
Excellent! Very well put by your wife. This should be bookmarked or something so people can find it easily to show their spouse/SO.
AccidentalDresser
02-08-2015, 02:09 AM
Any chance you could post some of the responses she is getting,
Nikkilovesdresses
02-08-2015, 03:04 AM
...It seems that it is perfectly acceptable for women to encroach into the male world.... Women...can behave either masculine or feminine, and nobody complains at all.
Firstly bravo to your wife, I hope she shook them up a bit.
To me the only aspect of her words which I think could be debatable, and perhaps I'll be lucky enough to meet her some time, are in the above quotes. Certainly women are able to wear trousers both short and long without shocking the gentlemen, but only in certain contexts. Admittedly they are broad contexts, but still when it comes to a formal dance, a wedding, or indeed a hooker flaunting her wares, trousers still don't cut it. Females at Hollywood red carpet events are not famed or photographed for their trousers, and how many dress designers put more than a handful of female models in trousers on the catwalk each season?
Humans are insecure creatures. That isn't a male or a female thing, it's both. Men tolerate trousers on their gals, but when it comes to sexy-time, they're going to prefer pretty lingerie, or a pretty dress- clothing which over-emphasises femininity and curves. They like to see some make up, and they don't as a rule like to see their gals beating men at pissing contests.
Sexism, if we're going to call it that, is alive and flourishing. I think crossdressers as a group may be more tolerant of trad-male characteristics in their wives, like DIY and car maintenance, but macho men are not. Equally trad-women hate effeminacy in their men, which brings us back to Pamela's wife's point.
In every other respect I agree completely with her views.
xNikki
PaulaQ
02-08-2015, 03:20 AM
That was beautifully written, and very moving.
My wife, and most of my friends, preferred the male image I constructed. I can't blame them I guess - it was a really good image.
pamela7
02-08-2015, 03:34 AM
Wow, thank you everyone for responding, we're both overwhelmed at the resonance. I personally read and re-read her words with tears in my eyes, I am indeed blessed, we all are.
Unfortunately I cannot share the responses to her post - deafening silence so far, but also cos that would require permission from the responders. It's a private forum for CD wives to bitch, which just shocked her. I'd not be surprised if her post got deleted.
Thanks Nikki, your point on sexism is valid, and she agrees, her position is that she's making a point to shame the shamers as it were.
I'll ask her if she's okay with her words being bookmarked - guess you'd have to ask moderators also.
Sarah Louise
02-08-2015, 04:06 AM
Wow, and the award for the best post goes to............your lovely wife. She's perfectly encaptulated the ironies of when it comes to gender, there's a different set of rules for men when compared to women.
I haven't told my wife about my dressing, but if I do, I'll ask her to read your wife's comments.
Great post!
Katey888
02-08-2015, 04:12 AM
Pamela - that is a really nicely written piece... full of reason, affection and consideration... you are indeed fortunate... :cheer:
Sadly, I suspect for a lot of GGs (and people in general) their understanding of what we do, and how they assess it, is based on values and beliefs - and they are the hardest concepts to try to modify - but I totally applaud your wife for giving it a valiant try. :)
I can only guess which forum (crossdresserswives.com springs to mind, as at least being of similar tone...) but I suspect her words will be revisited and live much longer here rather than elsewhere...
Thank you for sharing it, and thank her for being so open and sensitive towards us... :hugs:
Katey x
Teresa
02-08-2015, 04:23 AM
Pamela,
Reading those words from your wife does go to show that our partners can still care for you despite dealing with your CDing !
The last line really does ring true, after all these years I don't know what my wife does want from me ! She tells me she wants the man she married but I just don't believe her any more and the CDing is just being used as an excuse !
AccidentalDresser
02-08-2015, 04:48 AM
Unfortunately I cannot share the responses to her post - deafening silence so far, but also cos that would require permission from the responders. It's a private forum for CD wives to bitch, which just shocked her. I'd not be surprised if her post got deleted.
I sincerely hope it's not deleted as that would be a firm sign of the inequality that exists between men and women in these matters. And that would be a sad thing.
But it may just be that the forum in question is only filled by women who are only interested in bitching about there CD husbands for the sympathy vote. It's probably the only thing they have to find fault in with their male SO's but they would probably never post what a great father and provider he is cause no one's heart goes out to a woman who sings her husbands praises.
At least you and we all know your wife is not one of those.
charlenesomeone
02-08-2015, 05:16 AM
Pamela that was great, big hug to your wife. If only more felt that way.
Donna1391
02-08-2015, 06:00 AM
Pamela awesome letter by ur wife if only more thought like her ! life has a C/Der would be better for us thank her for me HUGS DONNA 1391
What a wonderfully switched on lady... Fantastically written x
Marcelle
02-08-2015, 06:44 AM
Hi Pamela,
Thanks for sharing and thanks to your lovely wife for her support to the community writ large in those posted words. Sadly though, I doubt it will change much in the minds of those who water on that site but the sentiment is not lost.
Hugs
Isha
Teddie
02-08-2015, 07:27 AM
Pamela love,
Your wife is wonderful. My wife feels the same way, but has never put in into words. But, when I showed your wife's posting to her, she said that she agreed completely with what she said. Here's thee dozen red rose for your wife. :love::love::love:
Rita C.
02-08-2015, 07:53 AM
You Have a great wife, the moist open minded lady I have ever heard. I think that every crossdressers wife should read her posting. Thank you and give her a big hug from all of us.
donnalee
02-08-2015, 08:04 AM
That's amazing; something all of us have been trying to express, and she nailed it!
DMichele
02-08-2015, 08:51 AM
Pamela,
Bravo! Bravo! Bravo! to your wife for expressing a very sincere, direct, and beautiful counter opinion to the naysayers. I believe that her opinion should not only be posted on that forum (and this one), but to the world.
Your wife is very special - a gem.
Hugs,
HollySmtms
02-08-2015, 08:58 AM
Pamela, thank you for sharing this, very positive and powerful words.
Rebekah_uk
02-08-2015, 08:59 AM
Pamela
All I can say is bravo, words written straight from the heart
Rebekah
dana 1
02-08-2015, 10:05 AM
Great post, one of the best, I don't show many to my wife but I had to show her this one.
Dana does shopping
02-08-2015, 10:17 AM
What an enlightened and progressive post. Love this woman to the death because it is truly evident she 'gets it'.
Tonya Rose
02-08-2015, 10:21 AM
Very well said!!!! And we can only imagine how many minds, and lives will be changed from her words!!! on both forums!
Hugs to both of you!!!! :hugs:
jackielou
02-08-2015, 10:39 AM
wonderfully said
bridget thronton
02-08-2015, 11:14 AM
Thanks for sharing the post - you have a lovely wife
Athena_
02-08-2015, 11:54 AM
Pamela,
Thank you for sharing your wife's post. It is encouraging to know that she is a logical and a non-judgmental person. She put cross dressing into, what I think, is the appropriate perspective. I would love to see the responses that she receives, or at least an idea as to if they are positive or negative. Hug that woman!
NicoleScott
02-08-2015, 12:00 PM
Some good points were made, but the tired old double standard argument wasn't one of them. To me, the "how can you" questions at the end were too much. A wife's inability to accept a husband's crossdressing is labeled cruel. Unfair to loving wives who try to understand and accept their husbands' drive to crossdress but whose image of his masculinity has been shocked. One woman who spends all her time making him feel ashamed or persecuting him is not representative. And we certainly should not blame a woman solely for her view of what a man and his "constructed image" should be.
We shouldn't think that our drive to crossdress isn't our choice but a woman's difficulty in accepting it is by her choice intentionally cruel.
LilSissyStevie
02-08-2015, 12:42 PM
Thanks Nicole! I was having trouble articulating what was bugging me about the OP but I think you nailed it. The long stream of self congratulatory posts that followed were making me queasy. I was even hoping that some GGs like Kittypw GG or Dutchess would join in and bring this back to Earth.
mary spence
02-08-2015, 02:01 PM
Just an excellent post...extremely well said. Thanks for sharing!
Ally 2112
02-08-2015, 02:11 PM
Awsome post thanks for sharing :)
Cheryl T
02-08-2015, 02:45 PM
Well said and so true.
Lorileah
02-08-2015, 02:57 PM
Any chance you could post some of the responses she is getting,
nope.First copying things from other forums isn't allowed (not sure we should allow this even with the disclaimer) and second, those people posted there with some expectation of privacy
pamela7
02-08-2015, 03:12 PM
My wife's post was in response to an entire forum of women belittling and attacking their CD partners. As she is now joining here you'll soon be able to discuss with her directly.
She's fully aware of the double-standards/both perspectives. That forum still has no replies to her post. She's not a doormat, she had her issues with my CD coming out.
Her point is about whether anyone is in a partnership out of love or other forms of gain. If its love, then ... her words stand as far as I'm concerned.
Obviously the wives are suffering, but to be vindictive to one's alleged love of one's life?
So Nicole and LilSissy, perhaps you can explain how belittling and shaming a person is the action of a loving partner?
Sandygal
02-08-2015, 03:15 PM
Your wife's letter was wonderful. I was hoping to see if any of the GG's responded to it.
Sandra
02-08-2015, 03:32 PM
How can you say that you loved your husband and not support him in his hour of need? How can you be so cruel to him? How can you spend all your time making him feel ‘suitably ashamed’ (as one person recently posted)? You play the victim, but you spend your time persecuting him relentlessly for daring to challenge your view of what a man should be.
Ok I'll chime in here, whilst the above is not directed at GGs here on this forum a few will feel annoyed. A lot of GGs are lied to, kept short of money because the husband is for ever buying things for himself, in some cases she is cheated on as the husband decided that he needs to try sex with a man to make themselves feel fem (yeah right) Not all GGs have husbands that have kept them in the loop and even when the GG says that she is ok with the cding still the husband holds back for a number of reasons, but this can lead to communications breaking down and the GG feeling left out.
Not all GGs are as described in the quoted post yes some are and some have a dam good reason. You guys here only read half of what is happening in some relationships and are all to quick to jump on the GG.
Both parties should try and work together not one pulling one way and the other pulling the other, it should not all be on the GG to have to be all happy, singing dancing about their husbands cding.
....and for those that don't know about me I am a supporting GG married to a post op transsexual so don't say I am just moaning.
pamela7
02-08-2015, 03:50 PM
thank you Sandra,
Appreciated, yes, its not aimed, the GG's here seem very supporting, and my wife-SO will explain her perspective, no doubt, as her joining is approved.
I agree cos I've agonised over self-indulgence, the recent spending on clothes, the narcissism or potential narcissism of the CD'er/me.
Neither of us approve of abusive relationships, tho we can see why they emerge/interplay. And if the CD becomes an abuse of the SO then yes, its gone too far.
Love, accepting all as they are, live and let live
xxx Pamela
LilSissyStevie
02-08-2015, 04:08 PM
So Nicole and LilSissy, perhaps you can explain how belittling and shaming a person is the action of a loving partner?
Of course, I don't think anyone should be shamed or belittled (unless that's what floats their boat) but you don't have to dig very deep to find CDs that have been deceitful, self-centered, who try to bully their wives into participating. They haven't handled it very well and some GGs haven't reacted to it very well either. CDs claim they can't help what they are but GGs can't help if they are repulsed by it either. Let's have some compassion all around.
SamanthaSometimes
02-08-2015, 04:10 PM
You are so very fortunate to have such a wife. The piece is well written and succinct with with excellent points. I wish there were more such people in the world. Thanks for sharing!
Rhanda
02-08-2015, 04:52 PM
This is a wonderful expression of how things have changed. I lived during the time when women were having feelings about taking on a mans position and needing to dress appropreately for work in the war plants during WW2 and never have thought of denying them the right to wear clothing designed for men. More power to them.. They helped save freedom for all of us. Thank you ladies.
This doesn't take away the freedom to participate in wonderful styles that lift our spirits. I say, whatever lights your candle. As long as it isn't immoddest and doesn't harm anyone else.
Rhanda
Teresa
02-08-2015, 05:07 PM
Sandra,
When the only thing to be guilty about is being a CDer who loves his wife and now wants to be open and honest with her but finds it almost impossible because they choose not to listen, it does feel cruel !
I don't expect my wife to be dancing round with happiness because of my CDing but she's doing so much damage ! I wish I could show her Pamela's thread to let her see how it can be accepted and work !
Kandi Robbins
02-08-2015, 05:31 PM
Pamela, you are so very lucky to be married to such an enlightened woman! Beautifully written and so well said.
Rachael Leigh
02-08-2015, 06:03 PM
I debated with myself if I would respond because while your wife seems quite enlightened many GGs will never accept or understand why we are this way, it's difficult enough for us to understand. We as men who enjoy a fem side have decieved our wives as to who we are for a long time. Many can decide even if they want to or not to stop dressing to bring back their spouse to what they feel is a normal life and it may be our only choice to save the marriage.
Again your wife has gone way beyond most will ever go and most of us will either hide ourselves or move on.
Jill_cd
02-08-2015, 06:25 PM
Wow! She's a treasure. That's a very 'progressive' view. You truly are very fortunate to have her.
mykell
02-08-2015, 07:26 PM
your wife rocks \nn/, but i fear the site she posted on will not get it....or care.....
Diversity
02-08-2015, 08:28 PM
Thank you for sharing this Pamela. Your husband is indeed, very fortunate to have you for a wife - a most understanding and considerate wife at that.
Di
ReineD
02-08-2015, 10:54 PM
Beautiful post. I don't agree with the comparison of women wearing pants to CDers who present as females (most pant-wearing women do not present or wish to behave as a male), but that's just a minor point. The rest was superbly stated! :)
I also believe that I know the site you refer to. I've been on it occasionally, and I also tried to reason with members there but to no avail. They thought that I was a CDer posing as a GG. But to be honest, some of the women who belong to that site are married to men who do a great deal more than CD. Their husbands have profiles on CD-sex/dating sites, they have secret emails, some of them drink to excess and actually engage in cyber-sex and even meet other CDers secretly for sex, they hide purchases have other secretive behaviors; all of this effectively makes them not be present in their marriages. I feel for those women, I would not want to be married to such a man either and I can see why it would be easy to conflate the CDing with the other behaviors that none of us would tolerate in a spouse. But, to their discredit, these women do tend to believe that everyone else is in their same boat (that all CDers must then be liars, cheaters, spendthrifts, selfish, etc). On the other hand, there aren't many people who are able to acknowledge that others do not share their personal beliefs/experiences, we even see that a lot in this forum.
pamela7
02-09-2015, 02:27 AM
Thank you again, everyone. Yes, we're not angels, and some of us have behaviours outside of the normal couple spectrum, that challenge the normal social world. We may not know the reason for compulsions, but I do know that once the underlying real need is satisfied the compulsion abates naturally. The CD'er has a corresponding duty to respect and love his SO or end the relationship to allow the SO to move on.
My own understanding of society is rooted in nature, seeing people like the wall paintings of Ancient Egypt. I'm a human wolf married to red riding hood (the female wolf), so to speak. If we look at nature, some species lives as couples, many live as tribes, perhaps mainly birds e.g. swans mate for life as a couple. It's our control system of monogamy that creates a deeply unconscious archetypal stress and therefore deviance from monogamous practices where the real nature of the person is not one-to-one. It might take 100 years to see such shifts in social orders, and meanwhile everyone has to deal with life as the surrounding social world requires, or face the consequences. [PS we are happily monogamous, I'm just acknowledging where urges going beyond the couple might come from, as well as seeing sometimes its unreasonable of the CD'er.]
And yes, I do feel like the luckiest man alive with my wife, and as she says "keep the CD indoors", so it remains indoors - for now!
TinaZ
02-09-2015, 04:27 AM
To Pamela's wife:
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!
This is difficult for us, too. Your post captured that amazingly well.
Amanda_P
02-09-2015, 05:54 AM
Very well said. Sounds like you have a great woman there.
Erika Lyne
02-09-2015, 06:56 AM
I may be over stepping my bounds a bit and this might not come out exactly as I intend but I'll try.
As a CDer who came out to my wife at a very young age (15), I see Pamela's wife's OP as a wonderful thought. She is keeping to her vows,(assuming they are the typical) "...for better or for worse, richer and poorer and sickness and in health..." She is a beautiful person who is sticking with the commitment that she entered into willingly, not knowing exactly where her future would bring her and her husband. Pamela too has honored that commitment by "keeping it indoors" and just by coming out about CDing. They both honor eachother by staying monogamous, a difficult thing for many because our own "acceptance" may be reached by gaining "acceptance" from someone outside the marriage, not in either Pamela's or my own case is this true. We both stay monogomous to our accepting wives, even with limitations placed on us.
Their beautiful relationship is what is key, to me at least, about this entire thread. Yes, we here in this site seem to be more accepting, GGs included, than other sites are. That is why we are here, for acceptance. I think we are wanting, wishing and hoping that our mates will grow to be more like Pamala's if they are not already there.
My wife is here too, she joined shortly after I did. She is new to the FAB membership as well. She is somewhat afraid to post on many threads because she is sensative towards other people's feelings, almost too sensative at times. We have read a few threads got heated and the disagreements start down a path that was not productive. We have even had arguments about some things said on this site. "You shouldn't feel..." or "I am NOT..." were statements made. I realized that things like this were not being productive but I also realized that these things are also inspiring conversation about our biggest hang up, me being CDer or possibly more.
The biggest point that I'm trying to say here is that the relationship between Pamela7 and her wife is a beautiful one, envious as many of us may be, it is their relationship, their rules, their life together and their family arangement.
Pamela,I thank you for sharing your your wife's fight to honor her commitment to her vows, her soulmate and to her family. I do want to apologize for not throwing in a big warm welcome to your Introduction when you first posted. You and I were both new to the site and I overlooked it. Your family has a house full of identity issues (I do not mean that as an insult, rather an observation and a pleasantry of acceptance). These challenges are a long hard internal battle that need not be complicated by lack of acceptance from the most deep rooted individuals in our lives, our own family.
I hope my message was clear.
Big warm hugs,
-E
pamela7
02-09-2015, 07:22 AM
Thankyou Erika,
Very appreciated.
Acceptance is a big key I feel, yes, ... but if we're not accepting ourselves, what at the consequences for our SO's?
We have the wobbles everyone has, and we commit to addressing and clearing them. By being open we are creating new highs and experiences together.
I think our lucky circumstances are partly down to me finding the CD late, and being open from the start.
We also appreciate that mainstream perceptions can be really narrow, and needs respecting in order to be accepted by less-accepting people.
No-one has raised a murmur at college or life generally at our CD FtM daughter and her CD FtM partner. My wife's rant was because it IS less socially acceptable for the M2F CD'ers to walk out there.
xxx Pamela
NicoleScott
02-09-2015, 08:47 AM
So Nicole and LilSissy, perhaps you can explain how belittling and shaming a person is the action of a loving partner?
I don't need to explain a position I don't have. Nothing I posted should have given you that idea.
sometimes_miss
02-09-2015, 10:08 AM
To me, the "how can you" questions at the end were too much. A wife's inability to accept a husband's crossdressing is labeled cruel. Unfair to loving wives who try to understand and accept their husbands' drive to crossdress but whose image of his masculinity has been shocked. One woman who spends all her time making him feel ashamed or persecuting him is not representative. And we certainly should not blame a woman solely for her view of what a man and his "constructed image" should be.
We shouldn't think that our drive to crossdress isn't our choice but a woman's difficulty in accepting it is by her choice intentionally cruel.
Perhaps not intentionally cruel when first faced with a crossdressing SO, but after brief reflection on how much women expect men to be more kind and sensitive to women's needs, it does sort of beg the question of exactly what do they expect us to be? It seems that often women want to choose men 'cafeteria' style, picking and choosing what traits they want, and only when THEY want us to have them. Sort of just like women insist on the right to equality with men, but only when it's to their advantage. And it's at that point where the intentional part comes in: When women know that it's unfair to expect us to be what they want, but only when they want it, but continue to expect it anyway because they feel entitled to have whatever they want, even at the expense of their mate.
Henriette7
02-09-2015, 11:31 AM
Wow, you have a great wife. Take good care of her :-)
Hugs
Henriette
Carlene
02-09-2015, 11:48 AM
Thank you for sharing this with us Pamela.
Sandra
02-09-2015, 11:56 AM
Sandra,
When the only thing to be guilty about is being a CDer who loves his wife and now wants to be open and honest with her but finds it almost impossible because they choose not to listen, it does feel cruel !
I don't expect my wife to be dancing round with happiness because of my CDing but she's doing so much damage ! I wish I could show her Pamela's thread to let her see how it can be accepted and work !
If she doesn't want it then it doesn't matter if you show her this thread....not all GGs can accept.
it's difficult enough for us to understand.
How true but still a lot of cders think that GGs should understand.
FeliciaCDSNJ
02-09-2015, 12:35 PM
That was a stunning read and quite honestly an excellent view, from the female perspective, on why SO's treat their life mates so wrongly because of a view on how the male demographic is suppose to live and look. Crossdressing is more than a fetish, it is more than a sexual kick that some have for wearing clothes that has been deemed for the opposite gender for whatever reason. For the longest time I have classified myself a crossdresser as my gender dysphoria wasn't clearly understood by myself BUT I did not find the term crossdresser wrong because my view on the subject is that clothes should remain as the word says. It is a garment that covers the body and with changing times I find it hard to believe that both men and women find it so wrong. It is proven that men wore dresses, heels, makeup, stockings, wigs and various other things before it was deemed female. Your wife has a great view and interesting questions that should be asked by everyone who is either in love with or knows a crossdresser just to gain a better understanding. With the Internet being as big as it is, the social stigma of men wearing women's clothes should be nil to none however, people will be people and will hate on anything that is seen as different because the majority of society sees it as wrong or disgusting. I know I'm kind of ranting but I've been doing a lot of soul searching and research into the stigma that is wearing clothes of a different sex. It just begs to question, when will the hate stop and the normalization begin because after research and thinking upon the subject, it really isn't all that different. In some cultures, crossdressing is seen as obtaining a new understanding of being human and embrace the fact that some of the men in their tribe or society does this empowering act and cheer those that do. You have a great wife and she raises great questions, let's hope some of those questions get answered. :)
Isabella Ross
02-09-2015, 12:39 PM
A perfect example of a person that sees the world from a rational viewpoint, rather than an emotional one. We need more human beings like this, not just SOs.
TinaZ
02-09-2015, 06:27 PM
Of course, I don't think anyone should be shamed or belittled but you don't have to dig very deep to find CDs that have been deceitful, self-centered, who try to bully their wives into participating.
Your use of the word "but" negates the first part of your sentence. The implication is, if the CDer behaves in the ways you've listed (deceitful, self-centered), belittling and shaming are acceptable.
I'll use your exact sentence structure, but change the topic. "Of course, I don't think any woman should be raped, but you don't have to dig very deep to find women who dress provocatively, dance inappropriately and come on to guys."
The implication in my sentence is she deserves it if she behaves a certain way. The implication in your sentence is CDs deserve it if they behave a certain way.
They haven't handled it very well and some GGs haven't reacted to it very well either. CDs claim they can't help what they are but GGs can't help if they are repulsed by it either. Let's have some compassion all around.
If a CD hasn't handled it well, belittling and shaming are still not acceptable. Two wrongs, etc. If a GG is repulsed by her CD husband, then the two of them need to have some difficult discussions about well defined limits or about splitting up.
On your last sentence, I agree 100 percent.
Welshgirl
02-10-2015, 10:55 AM
Hi all,
Pamela has finally persuaded me to join the forum and post in my own right, rather than having to be quoted all the time.
I was amazed at the response to this post, and rather in awe of the depth of feeling that it brought out in everyone. Perhaps we are lucky in our relationship, but I don't see any difference in the husband that I knew a few months ago, before he discovered his feelings about ladies clothes, and the husband that I have now. If anything, he is more relaxed, more fun and the whole household is having a great and entertaining time coming to terms with his sometimes unusual colour choices. 'Peacock' and 'Bird of paradise' are two of the descriptions that have been aimed his way!
I would be very happy to chat with anyone who wants to know more about how I, and we, have dealt with the transition to this new phase in our lives.
Sarah Doepner
02-10-2015, 11:37 AM
I normally stay away from posts that get this long because anything I have to say has already been posted, usually better and repeated a number of times. The orginal post is a wonderful affirmation of the love a wife has for her crossdressing husband. There are several posts that bring out the fact that there are crossdressers who may demonstrate all the characteristics in the post, but also behave baddly. Lies, outside relationships, reduced committment to the relationship, substance abuse and other things can damage the relationship and make it difficult to appreciate any of the positives we feel. It seems that the biggest problem is sorting out all the different parts of a relationship so they can be seen as distinct parts. It's very easy to see the lies and link them to the fact that the husband is a crossdresser. It could be the lies exist because the husband is afraid he will not be accepted or is basically dishonest in the relationship, but not because of his gender identity. People often attack something they don't understand and unfortunately, that is the case with crossdressing. It is very easy to lump all the things they don't like into one bundle and use that in their attack. I think the old saying holds here, "When the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail." In this case every problem in a relationship looks like crossdressing. A long term relationship is always complex and that means there are a lot of working parts that depend on something else. I would hope that we all find the strength and attention to try and sort it all out.
I think crossdressers sometimes use the reverse of this to justify some things that are not directly related to crossdressing. We can take it as an assault on our crossdressing if our spouse complains about all the Ebay purchases, when it's really those expenses make it difficult to pay the mortgage. There are two sides and it takes a lot of effort and concentration to figure out why we do the things we do and how is being affected by those choices. Pamela and Welshgirl seem to have made that effort and she has been able to show the ability to pull a thread out of the cloth and deal with it before moving on to other things. Thank you for your post.
JamieG
02-11-2015, 10:30 PM
CLICK (that was the sound of me hitting the like button on this thread)
MichelleDevon
02-12-2015, 08:51 AM
Welshgirl...welcome...:) Welcome, indeed and how lovely to meet you yesterday.
Yes, girls, I met Pamela and his amazing spouse yesterday for tea and talk. I had met Pamela a couple of weeks ago on her first venture out into our CD world and talked about Welshgirl and how supportive she is. They are both coming along to our "girls" group in Exeter tomorrow night so yesterday was an opportunity to meet them over a cup of tea so that Welshgirl had meet another tgirl apart from Pamela. My GG colleague from work came too and we had a lovely time talking about anything and everything.
Pamela, Welshgirl, I am looking forward to getting to know you both better over the years to come and hoping, too, that you will be able to play a role in our drop-in centre once we get it under way; it'll be great to have involvement from others, particularly a GG, who are committed to our cause and to "normalising" it in wider society.
Welcome again Welshgirl
Michelle
xxx
Welshgirl
02-12-2015, 09:01 AM
Thank you Michelle! We had a lovely time yesterday, and it was wonderfully refreshing to see just how unconcerned other people were about who was wearing what. You may have seen on another thread that Pamela posted shortly after we got home, that I am now much more comfortable with the idea of her going out in public, as long as it is fully dressed. In any other context that would sound decidedly odd, but everyone here will know exactly what I mean.
It was a delight to meet you both yesterday, and we are very much looking forward to seeing you at the meeting tomorrow evening. Thank you for taking the time to come over and reassure me - I'm sure the opportunity to have a half day off work and have some 'Michelle time' had nothing to do with it at all...:)
Kate T
02-12-2015, 09:14 AM
How true but still a lot of cders think that GGs should understand.
Yes so very true. Yet I wonder is that any worse or any better than the number of GG's who think that they shouldn't even have to TRY to understand hmmm.....??
pamela7
02-12-2015, 09:15 AM
oh yes, we're "in" Michelle!!! Thank you, we're another step on the way "out", of course we'll be there to help others.
MichelleDevon
02-12-2015, 09:37 AM
Not all the girls in the group are as lunatically confident as me but yesterday did certainly serve to highlight that it is possible to be out around the general public without people staring and laughing or making snide remarks. I think we have all been there and been concerned that we will be the subject of public ridicule but the reality is that this fear is almost entirely in our own heads...
It is, in any case, always easier when you are with other people - strength in numbers - and I don't think it matters too much whether that is with other tgirls or with GGs. I did read Pamela's post elsewhere and also email direct to me. I think yesterday achieved exactly what I hoped it would - making you feel more at ease...and highlighting the desirability of having a wig if you are concerned about being recognised. My friend Francine's SO, however, takes the opposite view - she feels that the wig is not necessary and encourages Francine and I not to wear. But I feel the wig is what really takes me, psychologically from Stephen to Michelle.
It was a great excuse for an afternoon off and going to choir as Michelle afterwards was a big bonus but meeting you and reassuring you was the real purpose and I am so pleased that you feel it was a success.
See you again tomorrow - legs will be "out" tomorrow - no jeans or trousers for group meetings!!!
Hugs and kisses
Michelle
xxxx
tootsie123
02-17-2015, 03:28 PM
Great comments you are lucky to have her
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