Employment?

[whowhatwhen]

I'm not sure how to approach this now.
The rate at which I'm being read female is going up seemingly by the week yet it's not all the way there yet.

So basically I'm going to be read as trans and I'm willing to bet that's going to make things a metric s*tonne harder.
How am I supposed to work things if the pass rate is maybe 50/50?

There's way more complications than that but I'm not gonna post them here.
:P

TL; DR: I'm scared and have no idea how to work things.

[Cindy J Angel]

Hi How well i dont know to b honest but keep your head up and put one foot in front of the outher each day u will get there. And on the hard days we r here for u to talk to. Love cindy

[angpai30]

The more you focus on not passing the more you will not pass. The reason you haven't been raising eyebrows is because you believe in yourself. Now, you have to start trusting yourself. This will take some time because trusting yourself and believing in yourself are separate and cannot be learned at the same time. Once the trust in ones self and belief in ones self coincide you will never be questioned and only applauded You are beautiful honey and the moment you start trusting it and believing it will be the day your life changes.

[Frances]

It's not easy. That's why some "gatekeeping" programs will not help individuals who are not already working or going to school. Then again, if you leave your job with the pre-existing condition of "having transitioned," finding new work can be really hard too. I gave up and now work for myself.

[Rogina B]

You are young and have to start somewhere. You have had no FFS work and it is doubtful that many can pass close inspection without it,and even with it for some. Be confident and move forward toward building a new life. Many people here wish that they had time on their side like you do!

[PaulaQ]

One of the problems you may encounter is your documentation. Who cares whether you pass or not - as soon as you fill out the employment application and show your legal ID, they know.

I'm not sure about where you live, but here in Dallas, I'm watching my roommate go through this, and she's being told over and over again they won't hire her until her ID matches her appearance. I personally fear this is just an excuse on their part - it is Texas after all - but either way, this is one of the awkward barriers to getting employment mid transition.

[Frances]

Even after you change everything, there are background checks. It's either lose your experience and start over, or settle for lesser work. My field is very "incestuous." It took a long time before I could find any work. No company would hire me. I had to find freelance opportunities, and even that took a long time to happen. It's almost like I had to be forgotten. For what it's worth, passing has never been an issue for me.

whowhatwhen's location is indicated below her avatar.

[whowhatwhen]

It's not easy. That's why some "gatekeeping" programs will not help individuals who are not already working or going to school. Then again, if you leave your job with the pre-existing condition of "having transitioned," finding new work can be really hard too. I gave up and now work for myself.

That's a real downer :/
I still stand by my decision to transition when I did but given all the replies it looks like it's gonna suuuuuck.

I wonder if it's a better idea to go back to school first.

[I Am Paula]

IMHO, you are in the best place in the world to transition. You have plenty of rights, and protections, easy to change documentation, and the general attitude of 'So, you're transitioning, cool'.
I can't say it will be easy, but at least your location gives you a good head start.

[whowhatwhen]

I understand that but this is a time where even cis people are having a hard time getting work.
I have limited experience to begin with, all the interviewer needs to do is not call back and he/she is legally in the clear.

[PaulaQ]

@Frances - I realize all of those things. I know many women who had long, highly successful careers who will never work in them again. Because you really can't erase your past easily, an employer who checks will indeed discover your past.

What I meant about her location is that I know she's in Canada, and attitudes and law are generally more supportive than in the States, especially in a hell-hole like Texas, but I don't know what prevailing attitudes are really like. There are plenty of "progressive" people here who will stand up for my right to be trans, but who wouldn't hire me if I was the last person on earth left who could do the job they were hiring for. I have no idea if attitudes like that are common in Canada - I have no real experience there.

I have noticed that jobs that aren't customer facing, and especially ones that require special skills or education, are much more likely to hire us. If you want to be in sales, marketing, or management, on the other hand, your odds aren't good. High tech, at least if you are an engineer, production person, etc. - a worker bee - tends to be very accepting of us.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Getting a job is often hard for the best of us
The keys to getting a job are education, persistence, good references and a skill the employer needs, plus some luck often helps.
Even in lower level jobs where its basically persistence those are the keys.

Your gender and appearance will matter, but you have only one choice. Go do it.
Get comfortable in your own skin as it relates to work.. If you are not confident and give the impression of having your S&*T together, then you won't work.

Keep it simple. It is not ABOUT being trans, but being trans will have an impact. It's not more complicated than that. There is no legal issue, they can NOT hire you at will...Unless they laugh in your face and and call you names of course(they wont)..

JOb seekers look at getting a job as a full time job. If you don't then they are gonna get the job. If you can convey that you are dependable, hard working, honest and working to find a good job, that's a big start, trans or not.

There is the legal issue of your name so that's going to be a personal matter for you to deal with. Right now your only option is go in as trans so you are going to have to deal with the name as you see fit, however, whatever you do, do it with confidence and create the impression of everything being under control. Who knows, you may interview with a person that is hugely supportive, but in that case you better have your act together.

[Jorja]

Your status is the most important thing here. Are you a part time CD or a full time TS (by full time I mean living 24/7 as a woman). If you are a part time CD trying to get a job as a female, forget it. Most employers, except for specialty situations ect... will not hire you.

If you are TS living 24/7 with legal name change ect... Put in an application just like any other applicant for the job. Ensure you have the proper qualification for the position. Now days you have just as much chance of getting the job as the next person.

Remember, the job market is very competive right now. If you don't get the job, apply for another and keep trying. Sell yourself! You have the qualifications! You have to tell the employer why he can't live without you. Then make so.

[whowhatwhen]

I'm easing into things like sweatpants on Christmas morning.
I'm full time as in I'm not presenting as a man on purpose, but not in that I haven't started legal changes.

To be totally honest I don't see how people are reading me as female but they are and it might be a sign that I have to go into this as a woman rather than do the awkward guy thing.
On the flip side I'm not confident in my appearance, my pics don't show it 100% but there is still a small amount of facial hair left to go.

[Dianne S]

It depends on where in Ontario you live. I think in GTA or Ottawa you won't really be at much more disadvantage than a GG would. In the smaller centres, it'll probably be much tougher.

If you can work for the Ontario or Federal Governments, you should be in good shape. They have really progressive policies and they tend to enforce them.

[whowhatwhen]

I'm in the GTA but I'm not massively skilled. (long ass story, tiniest violin/ect..)
I think OSAP gives a living stipend but I'd still need a job in the long run if I were to go back to school.

[Jorja]

I will give you my best honest answer. Look at the job market in your area. Do you qualify for any of the jobs available? Apply for those that you do qualify for. Most areas have a jobs analyst available. They can tell you what jobs are going to be in demand in the near future. Find something you can train for and get the education. Then go apply.

[becky77]

I'm going to be honest now.

You need to be certain in who you are. Right now you come across as indecisive and erratic. All this 50/50 easing in stuff, basically dipping your toe in just won't cut it with an employer. You need to be sure in who you are and confident that what you have to offer is good for them, no company wants uncertainty.

Best way to find employment is to have something people want, a skill basically. Jorja's advise is sound at 28 I went back to college and retrained for a career, it's hard work and hurt me money wise but was worth it now.

My H&R asked if I was to go fulltime as a woman or do it gradually. My Director cut in that it should be all or nothing and create the right impression. That's a business man speaking, most people are uncomfortable with grey areas (just how it is). That's in a situation of changing within the same job, I have been there 7 years. You are looking at going into a new job, think of yourself as an employer and you walk into the interview.
What would you say to yourself?

[Dianne S]

If you go to school and study something that's in demand, I don't think most employers would care one way or another about your TG status. Despite what many people think, business owners (good ones, anyway) tend to make business decisions without dragging in personal feelings or prejudices. If you're good at your job, then that's all that should matter.

The most important thing for you is to get a skill that's in demand, I think. I also agree with Becky that being decisive about your status is a good idea.

Good luck!!

[whowhatwhen]

I don't think I'm being indecisive, I've been cautious of what I can expect from the cis community at large.
That's worked up until now where those final steps are all converging at once.

I'm totally sure in who I am but I've eased into it only for the sake of my own stress levels and physical health, I do not regret that decision even if it has meant a slower transition.
The hormones have done a wonderful job so far and I'm glad I let those changes take place before rushing out the door.

I'm just being honest about how scary the whole prospect is, I realize that it has to happen anyway and that they are necessary steps.
A lot of it is probably a lack of confidence and self-esteem.

[Jorja]

I just hired one transgendered woman, one cis-male, and one cis-female. Why? Confidence in themselves, qualifications, and references. Who were the applicants? There were well over 100 applicants from every walk of life. You see, to me it doesn't matter whether they are male, female, or trans. It matters whether I feel they can do the job or not. They are on a 90 day probationary period. Prove to me that you can do the job, period!

[PretzelGirl]

I haven't seen you say if you have a particular skill or if you are looking for a particular field. The best thing you can do is figure out your path. Are you full time or not? Then own who you are. Put on your best presentation and your best resume. Will you be discriminated against? Maybe. But the thing to do is keep your chin up, smile because you are you, bowl them over with your attitude, and keep pounding the pavement. Don't sit around after trying for a few and wait or feel bad for yourself. Corrinne, you are going to get a job because you want one. So show them that.

[Lori Kurtz]

Everybody here is trying to encourage you, because we all know how it feels to be uncertain and insecure in facing risks. There are all kinds of people who have reason to be afraid of being treated unfairly in the workplace: gays, old people, disabled people, women, Muslims, transsexuals ... you name it. Unfairness is there, no doubt about it. You might suffer because of who you are. But you just have to pull on your big-girl panties and go out there and try anyway, don't you? You've got a big cheering section here, and plenty of shoulders to cry on if you need them. You'll find something that's right for you, even if it's a hard road to travel sometimes.

[sometimes_miss]

You have the qualifications! You have to tell the employer why he can't live without you. Then make so.
^this. I've gotten most jobs I've applied for. And have hired lots of people. What is important, is drive. You have to make someone believe that hiring you will NOT be a mistake, but on the other hand, will benefit both him and the company. Tell him you'll do whatever you have to, to get to work every day. EVERY DAY. Attendence is important. Very important. Accidents happen, but promise you'll come in even if you're sick, and will let it be up to him to send you home if he thinks you're too sick to work. Once you get the job, come in early, and stay late. Never complain. Offer suggestions, and don't be insulted if he doesn't take them, make him know that you feel part of your job is to give him ideas and it's up to him to decide if he wants to use them.
Believe in yourself. I once told a prospective employer that I knew had to choose between me and another applicant, that for the first three months I would sign my paychecks and give them to him, and if after the probation period he didn't think I was worth keeping, he could keep my paychecks. Not only did he keep me, but gave me a raise when he kept me on.
Once you have a job, make yourself better. Become the person that a company looks for.

[Jennifer8]

You have had no FFS work and it is doubtful that many can pass close inspection without it,and even with it for some.

WHY would you say something like that??
Thats just like a really horrible thing to say!
You make it sound like all of us better get it or just give up and go hide under a rock and even girls that get better go rocking shopping to cause well ur prob never gonna be seen as a girl either even after getting it. Seriously like WTAF?!?!?
Maybe Im young and stupid and I cant think of that other word that means like a kid ro something that doesnt know better but I did NOT get it I NEVER will get it! and there are ALOT of other girls who are beautiful and NEVER got it either!!!!

Like I said maybe it cause Im young or cause Im really really lucky or whatever but I had people mistaking me for a girl for like most of my life and way WAY before I ever even came out to and I cant be the only girl this ever happen to!

[Frances]

Some keep their neotenous features. I certainly do not need any FFS.

[whowhatwhen]

I can't imagine being able to afford FFS.
I'm not sure I'd want it either.

[Shelly Preston]

You are young and have to start somewhere. You have had no FFS work and it is doubtful that many can pass close inspection without it,and even with it for some. Be confident and move forward toward building a new life. Many people here wish that they had time on their side like you do!

Rogina, I feel you are being very unfair to people. Everyone one makes the best of who they are. We all come in all shapes and sizes. Close inspection of the individual's skills should be the priority.

Anyone conducting an interview should be looking for the best person for the job. I was once asked to stand in at the last minute for a colleague. One person who was in the waiting area as I passed had me a little confused. It was only later that i was to discovered this person was male as they came in for the interview, and yes they did get the job.

[angpai30]

Honey... I have not had one ounce of FFS. I was read as female before I even started transitioning. I worked for Wal-mart back when I started. When I came out as transsexual, there were some things that astonished me. This being the most as it deals with three different groups. These three groups all consisted of women and one group had a few guys in it. In on break all three of these groups came and sat with me at my table. The first group commented that they knew something was up and they considered me either gay or trans. The second group considered me female already, but were afraid to say anything in fear of upsetting me that they considered me female or in their words a transsexual just an FTM that was really horrible at being male. The third group said that they were absolutely oblivious to the whole fact, but they did think I was weird and pretty feminine, but still considered me male. One of the girls said that they thought I was an FTM transsexual because of my voice. It wasn't deep at all and sounded really feminine. Once I started transitioning everybody and their dog wanted to be my friend and everyone claiming that they already knew. To be honest I don't believe anyone really knew, but I do believe that they considered me female because the same thing happened to me at the store before this last one I worked at and the girl came out and bluntly asked me if I was really a girl and this was while I was still married and hadn't even though about transitioning then.
This whole that thought you most definitely can't pass without FFS is bull and I can personally testify to that. I haven't had any voice training, mannerism training, how to walk like a woman training. The only thing I had to really learn was "Makeup". All I really have to say to this thread is be "Yourself" and don't push it, just let it flow. I don't ever think about how I'm transsexual and how I need to "Pass" better. I just do what I do and go with it. That's one thing that I can definitely tell you will work is to just go with it, wing it if you have to, but don't worry about whether it works or not it will naturally come in time

[I Am Paula]

Rogina- You and I have almost always been on the same page. Your FFS comment was off the mark, and unfair. No one in my trans social network (real life. Some of my facebook friends have) has had FFS, we all live, and work as women, with no one calling us out on that. Are we all passable? No idea. We are certainly accepted by our peers as, well, whatever we are, and that's ALL that counts. I've not had FFS, and my dentist had both her mitts in my mouth for twenty minutes before I told her I was trans. She was flabbergasted, and said she had no idea. My jeweler made two wedding sets for us, and still thinks we are just an adorable gay couple.

Angpai30- I didn't have lessons, or coaching in female comportment, or speech. I just stopped acting male, and the woman inside busted out, an took over. I think among us true TS's this is quite common. Keep up the good work.

[angpai30]

Passing is overrated anyways because you don’t see women trying to pass as women. They know who they are and they OWN it. Passing is nothing when you know exactly who you are and Own it, believe it and use it to your advantage.

[Rogina B]

I have followed Corrine's post for a good while and I meant no harm from what I said. Given her situation,making her way as a confident Transgender woman is a realistic approach.It is unrealistic to think that she will go from her present life to that of a "stealthy TS". Then there is the paperwork issues... It really doesn't matter what jobs she goes after and hopefully takes on right now,as she is in flux and will be making many adjustments in the coming years..Just to have the confidence to get out there is the most important part.

[arbon]

I am surprised with the responses to what Rogina wrote. I did not find what she wrote to be unfair, hurtful or inaccurate. Most TS women are not going to be entirely passable without it, and even then many still wont be. People may be polite and accepting and gender you correctly but it does not mean that none of them can tell you are trans. Maybe most people wont realize I am trans but on occasion I am still mis gendered randomly by people that don't know me - I am not entirely passable. I still live as a woman and move forward in my life, get jobs, pay bills do all the rest, as should Corrine

[Angela Campbell]

FFS is good in its own way, really important for some and not needed for others, everyones different. But don't think it is magic either. It takes many things to pass and the face is not the most obvious.

[whowhatwhen]

I have followed Corrine's post for a good while and I meant no harm from what I said. Given her situation,making her way as a confident Transgender woman is a realistic approach.It is unrealistic to think that she will go from her present life to that of a "stealthy TS". Then there is the paperwork issues... It really doesn't matter what jobs she goes after and hopefully takes on right now,as she is in flux and will be making many adjustments in the coming years..Just to have the confidence to get out there is the most important part.

I'm not offended, what I'm getting is confirmation that the road will have bumps for everyone and I'm no different.
What has taken me by surprise was how much faster the physical aspect is happening than I expected and all those small, measured steps I were taking now require much larger leaps due to changes in my circumstances.

For example, instead of coming out to my father when I'd be moved out and more comfortable, I may have to do it much earlier while I still live here and face potential awkwardness for a long time.
It took months, maybe even over a year, before I was really accepted by my mom and I really didn't want to potentially go through that again.

I'm not gonna lie, those are some scary leaps since they are one of the most important ones and so far I've done this completely alone IRL aside from the support of my therapist.

E:
Despite all the crap, all the setbacks, all the everything, it's been totally worth it just to forget the last time I had an internal identity crisis.
I seriously don't remember when it last was and for that I couldn't be happier.

[becky77]

I'm just being honest about how scary the whole prospect is, I realize that it has to happen anyway and that they are necessary steps.
A lot of it is probably a lack of confidence and self-esteem.

Same as me, my confidence and self esteem was almost 0. You mentioned previously about using female toilets or was it changing rooms??
Either way there must come a point when you make a decision to step over the line, so you decide to use the female changing rooms and your scared and don't feel ready? Well you put your head up and walk in as if you belong there, you don't show the rest of the world how you feel inside. People think I am way more confident than I was, after a while it becomes the norm and you no longer think of it.
I know the approach you have but I can't see how it's going to end without being messy, set yourself a fulltime date and go with it.



I'm full time as in I'm not presenting as a man on purpose, but not in that I haven't started legal changes.
You can't be fulltime until you face the world as a woman, all the time and with relevant ID. So your not fully passable and people read you as male? Well that's how it is for most of us, it's part of the journey. Right now according to your messages, you are living as a male that could be mistaken for female. That's very different to living as a woman that could be mistaken for a man.

Going back to toilets do you now use female? I'm assuming not seeing as your still not out to your father.

Is finding employement more crucial right now than going fulltime? If employement is then you need to make a choice. Look for a job as a guy that is feminine and own it or look for a job as Corrinne and own it.
If not, then hold off till you are secure in your new gender role.

The question needs to be asked, is fulltime right for you? If you can't remember the last time you had an identity crisis and you feel happier, could you be content to live on the middle path?

[whowhatwhen]

You're right actually.
When it comes down to dirt I've still been living as male, albeit not accentuating that but still.
My original plan was to keep things low key until the pass rate hit around >75% but circumstances changed and now I have to start at ~50%.

The bathroom issue was basically "Am I passing enough to not upset women?" vs "It's probably not safe anymore to use the men's room."
I'm sure quite a few other transwomen have this struggle so I wasn't too worried about overcoming it eventually.

The employment issue is kinda like the bathroom one, "am I meeting people half-way?" That's more of a confidence thing as well I think. You're right though, I might have to wait until I have all the documentation changes.

Fulltime is definitely my end goal, unfortunately I keep putting superficial expectations of others above my own needs.
It's not just in regards to transition either, I end up giving up things and putting my own needs last just to keep peace.

[Angela Campbell]

It's pretty hard to "ease" into it. No matter what you do there is a period that is a bit awkward. Getting clocked does serve a purpose though. It tends to toughen us up a bit which is good because it gets harder. Once you pull the pin on the tranny grenade it gets hard to hide.

[Michelle789]

The more you focus on not passing the more you will not pass. The reason you haven't been raising eyebrows is because you believe in yourself. Now, you have to start trusting yourself.

Confidence is FAR more important than "passing". I personally know of transwomen who seemingly "pass" well physically, yet they get misgendered, face public mocking or stares or ridicule, and aren't accepted as women by others. I also personally know of transwomen who don't pass very well physically, but they rarely, if ever, face any problems in public, and are accepted by others as women.

Owning yourself will carry you much further in this world than will passing physically alone, and will make your life much happier if you are confident in yourself.

If you're thinking to look for work as a male who gets clocked as female, I will say this. Either way, you're going to have to cross this bridge and come out and transition.

If you find work as a male, you might face these problems.

1. Have an easier time finding a job by virtue of being male and cis
2. Get a bigger paycheck by virtue of being male
3. Get read as female, and therefore outed as trans
4. Eventually reach a point where you can't pass at all as a male
5. You'll have to come out and transition on the job
6. Risk getting fired after you come out, and then you're back to your job search again
7. Have your bosses and co-workers get to know you as a male, and then they have to re-gender you as female, and they might have trouble accepting you as a female because of their pre-conceived notions of you being male
8. Suffer miserably because you're pretending to be someone you're not for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, plus commute and overtime. Assume you won't be able to change your clothes anywhere but at home. And imagine how awful it will be to be called by a male name and male pronouns.
9. Everyone might still wonder what's going on because you already pass as female

Or, you could find work as a female, and

1. Have a harder time finding work, by virtue of being female and trans
2. Get a smaller paycheck because you're a female
3. Get read as male, but they already know your trans
4. Know that you'll eventually pass better as time goes on
5. You've put coming out at work behind you
6. Know that you're job is relatively safe because they already hired you knowing you're trans
7. Have your bosses and co-workers get to know you as a female, and even if a few don't accept you, most likely will, since their first impression of you is female, even if you don't pass
8. Be more productive, happier, and focused, because you're able to be your authentic self. You'll be content being called by a female name and female pronouns.
9. Will it matter what anyone thinks, because you already came out when getting hired?

I don't know where in Ontario you live, but if you're in a major city, you will likely have a good chance of finding work. I have a little anecdote.

A friend of mine came out as trans to her job last year. She was still presenting as male, and her job told her that it is okay, but if she dresses as a woman that she won't get the higher paying gigs. Eventually she lost her job. She was struggling to pay the bills and was contemplating finding work as a male, because she was so broke. Shortly thereafter, she found a new job. Her new job pays more than her old job, and she goes to work as a woman. Her job is very customer facing, and is not retail - it's in a corporate office. I just love success stories like this one.



I'm watching my roommate go through this, and she's being told over and over again they won't hire her until her ID matches her appearance. I personally fear this is just an excuse on their part - it is Texas after all - but either way, this is one of the awkward barriers to getting employment mid transition.

The difference between your roommate's story and my friend's story is the difference between California and Texas. California isn't perfect, and there are transphobic employers in California, but there is a better chance of finding a trans accepting employer in California.

I would probably think that technical, non-customer facing, behind the scenes jobs, as well as retail, tend to be more accepting towards trans people. It is generally non-retail customer facing jobs, as well as very high male privilege jobs, that won't hire you if you're trans. Most of those jobs only want aggressive cis-gendered straight males. I think female-dominated professions would have a better chance hiring you than male-dominated ones (except tech/engineering which are male dominated but will still hire you)

[DebbieL]

NEVER think in terms of someone GIVING you a job.

When an employer hires you, it's because they believe that you will be a valuable asset who will help the company make bigger profits.

One of the first trans-women at IBM was fired by her manager when she transitioned. She went on to win 75 patents essential to IBM's business - for a major competitor. After that, IBM made it a policy to protect ALL diversity including Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender. In fact, every employee is required to complete diversity certification every year. Many other companies have similar diversity programs.

Keep in mind that as a trans-woman, you may be giving them double or triple EEOC points. I'm transgender, a woman, and lesbian. The fact that I also have outstanding performance and have played a part in $billions worth of sales and contracts, also helps.

Back in 1989, I was forced to resign from a company in which the VP of IT was ex-navy and wanted to "get that faggot out".
In the 2 years at that company, I'd already won 2 awards for increasing net profit by $1 million A DAY and less than 2 months after I left the company won the Malcolm Baldridge award, largely for work in which I played a key role. I went on to work as a consultant, netting clients $billions in annual profit.

Even my clients realize that I have some unique perspectives that can be incredibly valuable and should not be ignored.

Don't think in terms of why an employer should not hire you - you will be right. Before you go to an interview, think about what you can do to help that potential employer make more money - more revenue or more provide through lower expenses.

If you just ask for $1 million dollars, the answer will probably be no. If you offer to show them how to make $100 million dollars and they will only have to pay you $1 million dollars if it actually works, they will almost certainly say yes.

[Dianne S]

One of the first trans-women at IBM was fired by her manager when she transitioned. She went on to win 75 patents essential to IBM's business - for a major competitor.

I believe you're referring to Lynn Conway (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/conway.html) who is a double-hero of mine (I'm an electrical engineer by training.) Not only is she an amazing transwoman, she also made significant contributions to the design of VLSI circuits. Her story (http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/LynnsStory.html) is definitely worth reading to see how she overcame incredible prejudice and huge personal loss to live an authentic life.