Is it *really* about passing?

[mechamoose]

I know a lot of our members are on a personal journey. To a number of us, we are trying to physically transition. To others, we are trying to present as our cis-gendered self. Others (like me) are just trying to be ourselves.

So, you my sisters here, those who are on the transition path or on the presentation path.. I want to ask this: Why is someone else seeing the seams and edges a 'failure'? I know you WANT to present flawlessly is the ideal. I get that. But I have to wonder, why are you losing 'good' while seeking 'perfect'?

We were not born in our internally identified gender. Doing a 100% conversion is a 'unicorn' to me. Wonderful to find, but am I going to turn away lesser versions of that? I still dress how I do, wear makeup the way I do, and I don't care. I'm not doing it for THEM, I'm doing it for ME.

I wonder how many of us are being critical of ourselves because we failed to link up with that unicorn.

<3

- MM

[Laura912]

Suspect that the responses will group according to age groups. My path has so many switchbacks and forks that at times soul, body, and mind are going in three different directions. In the past several years, acceptance of what I am and will not ever be have moved in together and are quite happy cohabiting. "Good" is fine. The others can have perfect. But that will not keep me from trying to present as the best possible. Maybe not an unicorn but if I can get a saddle on it, then hang on!

[Sara Jessica]

Passing is a ridiculous concept. I've often pointed out that no one ever really knows if they reach that holy grail because you can never really know exactly what happens in your wake. Sure, you might get by without anyone giving you the obvious "a-ha" look but once you walk on by, all bets are off. You don't know what they are saying and unless you are constantly looking over your shoulder, you won't see them do the requisite double take, or worse.

That is not a pessimistic viewpoint (I'm an eternal optimist), it is simply realistic. And that brings things full circle, that personally I will do my best but settle for a result that is good enough along with an expectation that I will be perceived as trans-whatever by the Muggles and as such, I am much more happy, carefree and relaxed when out & about.

[pamela7]

i'm changing so fast my answer will change over days if not hours or minutes!

right now, having experienced the wonderful CD/TG/TS group in Exeter, UK, on Thursday, I get its not about passing, its about LOOKING AS GOOD AS YOU CAN.
if you think about it, it's what our CO's do for us when going out, too! It's a matter of respect of others and oneself.

xxx Pamela

[cdinmd206]

I would like to be able to blend in in a crowd or at least have people say "not too bad looking"

[Steph_CD_62]

With me passing is NOT an option.

I just really enjoy how I feel when I am dressed. Something about wearing nice lingerie and a nice dress is just so relaxing to me.

[mechamoose]

Passing is a ridiculous concept. I've often pointed out that no one ever really knows if they reach that holy grail because you can never really know exactly what happens in your wake. Sure, you might get by without anyone giving you the obvious "a-ha" look but once you walk on by, all bets are off. You don't know what they are saying and unless you are constantly looking over your shoulder, you won't see them do the requisite double take, or worse.

This idea is super important, thank you.

You/We see the 'polite' responses, the 'non-confrontational' ones. We have NO idea what anyone near us *thinks*, and what they would say if they *could*.

Hence my point. Camouflage, be definition, means that you have successfully blended. The 'enemy' doesn't see it.

Is that enough? If they *saw* you as a boy who happened to look like a pretty girl, is that a failure?

If they accept you in that mode, did you *miss* something?

I just want to be me (as dissonant as I am) and have it be 'bumpless'. I want to do what I do and have *NO* attitude in response.

(poke at the facts, it will eventually reveal the truth)

- MM

[MissTee]

Like you MM, I am just seeking to be myself. Furthermore, I'm out to my supportive wife and don't look to take it further. I pass enough for me in my head and in my heart. That's my journey. I would think, though, that if I was out and about in public I would worry much more about the details. Even then it would not be to pass more, but to stand out less.

[Jocelyn Quivers]

It's just the person I am regardless of male or female sides. Both sides strive for the "unicorn", perfection, to look my best to a certain degree. An example of how my male side looked at the unicorn is going to the beach, swimming pool, etc. Even though I maybe went once or twice a year. I would spend practically every day obsessing over lifting weights, diet, etc. To go gain the perfect "unicorn" physique for those few occasions. It had a lot to do with what my male side idolized or wanted to look like as far being a guy. Going to femme mode it's basically the same thing, lots of diet agonizing, excessive exercise, along with all the additional bells and whistles. It's just how I wish to present, in my quest to look like the “Women’s Health” magazine model. Even though I rarely leave the house in girl mode and the only person who really sees me is my wife, I still present from head to toe trying to pass, wig, tucked, etc. Anything else for my own standards are unacceptable, or when I look in the mirror the absolute last thing I want to see is a guy. Being that unfortunately for the foreseeable future I have to present as one for employment, health insurance etc. In many ways though my male side is and always will be there, and has actually become a greater influence internally. I realize that I will never "pass" but that does not mean it's a goal I'll never stop or quit in trying to accomplish.

[bridget thronton]

I am content to look as good as I can (to please me) and hope the people I run into will be as polite to me as I am to them.

[Nicole Erin]

For anything ones does, there is going to be an "ideal" version which is often pushed by the media.
Like say 20 somethings who are already very successful and rich. Or some 50 year old woman who looks better than her 21 year old daughter. Perfect lives...
Very few people get to live the ideal.

In the case of TG folks, yeah the "ideal" is passing without question with a side dish of being beautiful. It doesn't help when we see Miss Canada or Kim Petras. So naturally being TG, we measure ourselves against that. And we fall short.
Or you get on websites and forums and people like to remind you that you do not pass that well.

I live this full time, 24/7, even at my job. I do not pass that great, and I am pretty at best. For quite some time I obsessed about passing but it just isn't gonna happen on the level I would like. Eventually I quit worrying about it. What was I going to do? NOT be me just cause I wasn't blessed with a huge bank account and genetics?

Some people DO reject social things because the situation is never perfect. People think they are going to have perfect friends, a perfect partner, etc just fall into their lap but it isn't reality.

All you can do in this life is make the most of what you have. You get what you gt in life, take it or leave it.

[Judith96a]

If by "passing" you mean having everyone perceive you as being 100% female when you're attempting to present as female then that's something that I doubt that I'll ever achieve. I may have gotten close to it for a few minutes at a time when I was younger but not now! I know personally 3 girls who DO achieve this - one is a pre-op TS who has had some cosmetic surgery and had worked really hard to achieve her desired body shape, the other two are crossdressers who happen to have quite feminine features to begin with and really do know how to use appropriate padding and dress to achieve the desired effect. In my experience, they are very much in the minority.
For me, the goal is to present sufficiently female to survive casual scrutiny. For example, as I walk towards the bus stop I hope that anyone who happens to notice me will think "tall, redhead woman" and move on to think of something else. Standing at the bus stop, I expect that I may get a few quizzacle looks but that, unless they dare also waiting for a bus, most people will have much better things to do than worry about who or what I am. However, I have absolutely no illusions about fooling the little old lady sitting opposite me on the bus - unless she's forgotten her glasses AND is fast asleep!

[mechamoose]

...they are very much in the minority.
For me, the goal is to present sufficiently female to survive casual scrutiny. For example, as I walk towards the bus stop I hope that anyone who happens to notice me will think "tall, redhead woman" and move on to think of something else. Standing at the bus stop, I expect that I may get a few quizzacle looks but that, unless they dare also waiting for a bus, most people will have much better things to do than worry about who or what I am. However, I have absolutely no illusions about fooling the little old lady sitting opposite me on the bus - unless she's forgotten her glasses AND is fast asleep!

So...(just asking)

Is it about YOUR perception of yourself, or about THEIR perceptions of you?

I gotta ask.

Who are you trying to please, and why?

We have the right to be ourselves. We don't have to justify that, and we sure as hell don't have to apologize for that.

Personally, I want to give our members *all the room in the world* to be comfortable being dissonant. To *not* quite fit in and not feel sorry for that.

You don't have to be tied to that unicorn (Umm..er..sorry. Bondage fantasies intrude...)

I have used this example many times. You could look like Earnest Borgnine in a sundress.. and you should experience *NO* embarrassment. You didn't *fail*. You were being YOU.

Why is that so bad?

<3

- MM

[BillieAnneJean]

There are too many visual cues for most of us to have a chance at "passing". And is it really necessary? When OUT enfemme, how much time do we spend interfacing with a homophobe? Just about anyone else will not care whether or not we look so realistic that we are indistinguishable from a GG. Our contact time is short enough that they just don't care.

And I dress for myself. I don't care if I completely fool anyone. All I need to accomplish is to create enough doubt on their part that they lose interest and go about their business.

What is more important is that I "blend". Sure I tend to dress better than just about every woman within sight. But I am not wearing a neon orange fishnet dress over eight inch platform heels, even to a club. If I am shopping I wear something classy but not a formal gown. If I am at dinner I may wear a dress that for most GGs would be Sunday best. But it isn't sequins, it isn't a party dress or prom dress. So just by the nails, makeup, nice color coordinated outfit, the heels, the jewelry, that alone is going to signal that I am different from the GGs. So just by dressing up, even in an appropriate manner, albeit more dressy than flip flops and sweats, in heels and stockings, I am not "passing".

And I don't CARE. If I put some effort in to it, the people seem to appreciate that I have not just thrown on a dress and expect to fool them. Certainly the women know and appreciate the amount of effort. They acknowledge it when I mention it. But what seems to help the most is a sense of humor. When OUT enfemme I do a comedy routine of sorts when interacting with the general public. I do the feminine hand gestures, the poses, the facial expressions, all a light exaggeration of feminine comedy. I OWN it. People enjoy the comedy, that I am not taking myself too seriously. I draw them in to my comedy. They can smile and chuckle with me. We BOTH have fun. Sometimes they even get in to the act, joining me in my routine.

So I prefer to blend except when interacting. Then I prefer to entertain.

For nearly 2 1/2 years now I have been going OUT enfemme to restaurants, stores, gas stations, bars, clubs, malls, you name it. I have had great experiences to some so memorable that I will never forget them. Like the bachelorette party, Drab to Fab, dancing on stage, bar hopping in a ball gown. And taking new girls OUT enfemme for their first time. But as I mentally calculate the not so good times, I find that somewhere from 3 to 5% of the OUTings, someone is impolite to me. Well maybe those percentages would have been the same if I was in guy. So I will take the odds.

If you are in the Midwest and have not experienced this comedy while blending enfemme, then please see our Group Schedule of Events at:
http://www.crossdressersmichigan.com

Believe me, you CAN go OUT enfemme and have a great time. Come with me and see. If you live too far away, then see our schedule for Drab to Fab. If these are impossible for you, then network and find someone near you who goes OUT and has FUN.

There are no negatives here. I have a great relationship with my beloved SO (she is 99.9% of the world to me) and am having fun CDing.

I am having SUCH FUN!
Billie

[suzanne]

My holy grail is just to feel good in an outfit that looks right on my body. I know that someone of my size would never pass as female, so I don't try. I go out as me in a dress, and it works! I can't say l'm pretty, but my clothes fit properly on my body shape, so my look is as good as it can be. So I feel confident, and that adds to the whole image as well. Women, including wife, often compliment me on my clothes and shoes.

I heard a female celebrity once say that "some men look good in a dress". Well, I'm here to expand on that and say that a lot of men can look good if they choose the right dress, and I'm one of them.

[wanda66]

Total agreement with you Suzanne, I am tall and large no way to pass for a woman. My hair is long and ive had several positive comments about it .what you wear has to complete you personally

[Marcelle]

Hi MM,

Only a minutia percentage of us truly "pass" and by passing I mean close up and personal inspection with conversation and nobody knows the difference. I believe I blend but I never survive first contact of sorts and even blending only means that given 10 people who pass me, only a one or two will give me he WTF look the rest . . . well as Sara said . . . we'll never know. I did a social experiment early in my journey where I investigated the "wake" we leave. My concept of what I thought was completely different from what occurred after I left. If you are interested . . . have a read http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?212499-The-Rose-Coloured-Glasses-Experiment/page2

In the end, the moment I stopped worrying about passing/blending or what not and just got on with the business of being, I was a lot happier. I hold no illusions that people see a guy when I am out and to be honest . . . I am a guy. I may try to present as close as possible to a women but in the end I am a guy and there is no hiding that.:)

Hugs

Isha

[MsVal]

(Sign in a hot rod shop: "Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?")

It doesn't matter whether it's a CD/TS wishing to present well, or someone wishing to restore an antique car or build a hotrod. In all of those cases I have realized that there are constraints which limit the outcome. I realize that I am unlikely to ever reach a state where there is nothing left to do, but realistic enough to accept that the best I can do will have to be adequate.

I don't believe it will happen this year, but maybe next. I would like to blend, with a long term goal of passing. My idealized goal is to dress in whatever I choose and go about my day without giving it another thought.

Best wishes
MsVal

[alwayshave]

With heels I'm 6'5", 220 so I am really under no illusion that I pass. Even when I get to my target weight of 190, I don't think I'll pass, just have more clothing options. At this point I am comfortable in my own skin, I just want to feel pretty and look as pretty as I possibly can given my constraints.

[mechamoose]

With heels I'm 6'5"

Hmm,, tall drink of water there.

Not that I'm like, ****ting out or anything....

[Juanita O]

we are talking here about passing, well i have seen genetic females that come in all shapes and sizes, like we do. I look around and sometimes i see females that wouldn't pass as females. I know that i would not pass very well, but i try and blend in as much as i can, but being built like a line backer doesn't help, but again females come in all shapes and sizes.

[Beverley Sims]

I am certain that we are over critical of ourselves.
This is why some do fail to get out.

[AngelaYVR]

I have a certain level that I desire to attain for my own sake. I am under no illusion that I am fooling everybody when I go out and it doesn't bother me at all.

Addendum: I just read Isha's "experiment" thread and found it very interesting. Not having had anything but my own first hand experience, I can say that the gamut ranges from warm to "WTF?" (from a guy smoking a cigarette outside a gay leather bar). I would say that 98% are indifferent or at least don't give it much thought past the initial five seconds.

[Sara Jessica]

So I prefer to blend except when interacting. Then I prefer to entertain.

I like how you conveyed your sense of being. Entertain? I see your point there but I think this is better described as having a bubbly and vivacious personality and you're not afraid to use it. How many times have you heard a woman described based upon her beauty within? That certainly can be another absolutely positive element of our presentation. It beats being nervous and standoffish which at the end of the day can come across as creepy.


I did a social experiment early in my journey where I investigated the "wake" we leave. My concept of what I thought was completely different from what occurred after I left. If you are interested . . . have a read http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?212499-The-Rose-Coloured-Glasses-Experiment/page2...

I remember that well, thanks for posting the link as a reminder! Nice to read it again.


I look around and sometimes i see females that wouldn't pass as females.

Dangerous territory there.

I did my own social experiment recently where I would look at total strangers and upon first glance I would make note of what visual cue led me to conclude one was a male or female. After amusing myself with this over the course of a dozen subjects or so, I was never wrong. The cues rarely, if ever, lie when looking at cisgender Muggles. Even those women who you would accuse as not passing as females, I really doubt that is the case. They exhibit obvious cues of how we as human beings perceive femininity whether it is shape, size, hair, facial features, manner of dress, etc.

At the same time, those cues are often what betray us, whether at first glance or after several. We attempt to hide, mask and/or distract but when all is said and done, there is almost always something that ends up being our achilles heel. That is what this whole thing is all about, best to accept that and move on. Makes life better in my book.

[jsunic_1978]

FOR ME...., im very open about my self, especially in the community where i live. so people know who i am :) if i want to get all dolled up, full make up form etc..or just a quick shave and shower, throw on my uggs skinny jeans and mt LOVE PINK hoodie by VC i do so :) if im just running errands, or just checking out good will, i just dress comfortable.

HOWEVER, if i plan on being out ALL DAY, where i may have to use a public restroom, i dress ACCORDINGLY, and ACT accordingly. Ohio just passed a law, that TRANSGENDER PEOPLE CAN USE THE RESTROOM THEY FEEL MOST COMFORTABLE. however, most of us are just CROSS DRESSERS, which is in the transgender spectrum. we use restrooms in whach GENDER WE PRESENT AS...now, if im presenting as A MAN, in women's jeans, shoes i use the MENS RESTROOM....but i usually like the SINGLE STALL restrooms better as either gender or gender bender :) EVREYBODY JUST HAVE FUN BE YOU AND CONFIDENT AND TRUE TO YOUR SELVES.. :)

and dress ACCORDING TO THE TIME OF YEAR....(SEASONAL) and NO SKINNY JEANS WITH BIKER BOOTS...:) unless the boots are KNEE HIGH....NO ANKLE BIKER BOOTS WITH SKINNYS here are some boots that go with EVREYTHING :) I MEAN THESE GO WITH EVREYTHING :) ill attach a photo in a minite

[Rogina B]

Have confidence in your presentation as well as yourself.Engage with those around you,and you will be viewed in a positive way and all thoughts "in your wake" will be good ones!

[flatlander_48]

(Sign in a hot rod shop: "Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?")

The answer would be:

Not very fast due to that old Hawaiian disease: Lakamuny...

The concept of Passing is only a target; and a fairly unobtainable one at that. Even if you got the visuals down, and that's a BIG If, there's still speech and socialization. Speech you can also work on, but if you are a woman in your 40's, you've had the better part of 4 decades of socialization. If you have been socialized as a male all of your life, incorporating the opposite into your psyche is likely not an easy thing to do. And personally, I do not try.

The security of my confidence begins with my perception of how I look. If I am pleased with how I look, given what I am going to do, that represents starting from a very good place. This has always been true for me; as male and as female. If one obsesses about Passing, all that will do is blunt the enjoyment to be gained from being out and among friends.

DeeAnn

[GenieGirl]

I think in the beginning for a lot of us venturing out our first times it is much so about passing. A lot of that is probably due to anxiety of the unknown and fear of what people will think seeing and knowing you aren't a woman. Once we reach our comfort level it becomes less and less about passing and more about living your everyday normal lives as women and being happy doing so. I passed the stages of feeling the need to pass and I just go out and do my thing and meet new people in the process and taking every opportunity to educate people on transgender people.

I have gotten many shocks from people when I tell them I am male and its great to get positive responses from it. I "used to" always assume everyone knew I was a boy in drag and that didn't bother me one bit but I've learned I can't make that assumption. It has made for some great stories and experiences though. I am completely open with that part of me with people I meet.

[Andy66]

I just want to point out that some of us think CDs and transpeople are beautiful, even if they dont always look like a unicorn. :love:

...As for MY appearance... have you ever heard the expression, you can put a saddle on a pig, but that dont make him a racehorse? Thats me. Oink. But at least Im a comfortable, mostly happy little piggie. :heehee:

[Katey888]

Passing is a ridiculous concept.

We all should have someone accompany us who whispers this in our ear over and over again, like the Roman generals that had a slave reminding them "you are only a mortal man" during a triumph... :) Although perhaps ridiculous is a little harsh, particularly as we are GMs masquerading or portraying as GGs and therefore passing is really only a relevant concept to us - the muggles don't go about assessing a passability rating for every male or female they meet... Generally, if the cues are there that define gender in the context of the local culture (let's not forget that other cultures have differing gender cues) most people will accept the view at face value. For western cultures I'd suggest the strongest visual cues (at a non-personal distance) are hairstyle and length; type of clothing; physique, particularly height and build; and gait. As you get into a closer proximity you'd then get facial features and use of makeup; jewellery and clothing details; and voice, if in earshot. I always assume by 'passing' we generally mean at a distance - and most folk don't look too closely so if the major cues are there (long hair; feminine clothes; feminine gait) that's probably a tick in the box. If you're a larger build then you'll probably get a second look, just as some particularly tall or heavily-built GGs would, but then the secondary details - makeup, jewellery, etc. - would come into play and might still 'pass' you.

It's academically interesting for us because it means a lot to many of us who 'femulate' - and of course it's even more important to those who are TS because it really is about expressing and projecting their innate gender. For those of us who rarely or never brazen the outside world, I doubt we should (or do) worry too much.

While being an unashamed femulator, I actually find discussing it sometimes a little insensitive and potentially very judgmental. How many GGs honestly discuss amongst themselves who has the most cover-girl looks? Or who really has a centrefold figure...? There are a tiny percentage amongst us who are blessed with ALL the most feminine male attributes to pass convincingly; there's a bigger (but still small) percentage who can make a good distance pass; many of us will have experienced more of Isha's 'wake effect' where common decency and politeness (and lack of interest) mean that most people who do make us then don't scream and point fingers like 'Invasion of the Body Snatchers'... :facepalm: and I believe what's more important is that those of us that do exhibit ourselves in public do so respectfully and in a way that is both true to ourselves and who we are, and the context of the environment we are in.

I imagine the route to broader acceptance lies more in that direction, and I'd rather have that for all of us than a largely unattainable or theoretical 'pass' for some... :thinking:

Katey x

[mechamoose]

I just want to point out that some of us think CDs and transpeople are beautiful, even if they dont always look like a unicorn.

^^ this

So much THIS.

<3

- MM

[Dianne S]

Contrarian view here. Yes, passing is very important to me. As someone in the midst of transition, I want to be accepted as a woman. I want to live as a woman and don't particularly want to be perceived as a man; that adds complications that I just don't need. So yes... I do my level best to pass. I lucked out unbelievably with genetics --- I'm only 5'2", so the major impediment to passing is removed. I still have plenty of other tells, though, and I work the hardest I can to overcome them.

When it comes right down to it, no, I don't really care that much what other people think. But I do want people to perceive me the way I perceive myself, and I want to minimize the complications in my life.

[flatlander_48]

I would posit that the idea of Passing means something very different for transexuals as compared to crossdressers. That involves change leading towards a permanent shift. Dressing is a start and stop activity. In the majority of cases, we're not planning to live and interact with the world as females on a continuing basis. It comes and goes. Very different proposition...

[Victoria Demeanor]

Yes, .. No ,... maybe? sorry whats the question? No really I do understand the importance to some to be "Passing" and to others to want to pass and as for me ya, I would love to be able to walk down the street without anyone taking a second look, well except to say WOW... I don't really have an honest stake in it one way or another. As I have just really started this journey into excepting my feminine side late in my years, I have a couple things going for me. 1. I've done it all and have the t-shirts. if anyone wants to complain, well they have to top me. 2. I'm old and mean and really I no longer care what people think of me. 3. I am damn sexy in a dress and yes I know it. So yes I would like to...."pass"... it's on my mind when I'm doing my makeup, but it's not the reason I'm doing any of this and it's not keeping me from going out........sorry the nurse just came in with my medication.....what were we talking about again?

[mechamoose]

...as for me ya, I would love to be able to walk down the street without anyone taking a second look,

My feeling is that this is what most of us want...

<3

- MM

[justmetoo]

I can only speak for myself, but it isn't about "passing" for me. All that really matters is that I am treated with the same courtesy or civility anyone should be treated with. If people laugh or talk after I passed by I won't know and don't care (or try not to). I used to get self-conscious about laughter (even en homme, because I am pretty nerdy), but I've tried to convince myself that if I'm going to imagine what people are thinking (because I don't read minds) then I might as well imagine that it's good stuff or at least that it's nothing to do with me specifically.

For those who live full time and do want to pass, I think that's more about being seen as and treated as who they are, no?

[flatlander_48]

Funny thing about laughter. In many situations, all it is is a kneejerk nervous reaction because we don't know what else to do or how else to respond...

[Rogina B]

For those who live full time and do want to pass, I think that's more about being seen as and treated as who they are, no?

Putting your genuine self out there. Only way to gain acceptance and inclusion.

[Persephone]

I agree, MM, that we should not dismiss the "good" in the search for the "perfect." I think it was Confucius who said, "Better a diamond with a flaw than a pebble without."

Nonetheless, we should not use mediocrity as an excuse for failed achievement.


Passing is a ridiculous concept.

Failing to strive and then blaiming the goal is failure, not success, and a "participation trophy" is not "first place."

Is it possible to pass? I don't completely know because it may be impossible to tell "passing" from "acceptance." But as a woman who is accepted in many groups and social circles, greeted with hugs, smiles, and genuine warmth, I certainly believe that passing, far from being a "rediculous concept," is not only possible but is possible for many more of us if we strive to achieve it.

It is far from easy, and it certainly will never be a "participation prize" for those who fail to put forth the effort, but it is real and it is doable.

Hugs,
Persephone.

[AngelaYVR]

Well, when I went out today I decided to pay particular attention to people's reactions. It was over 10C today and very sunny so the streets were packed giving me a very large sample size ;)
The overwhelming majority didn't look
A statistically significant number did but for reasons unknown
- several of those that looked smiled
I got 2 audible "omg that was a guy" type comments
1 "what the hell" from a mother with kids
1 "you look beautiful" from a random woman. Thank you random woman!

So, no matter what my state of passing, I had a great day (and also bought a skirt and light jacket!)

Angela xox

[ReineD]

I just want to be me (as dissonant as I am) and have it be 'bumpless'. I want to do what I do and have *NO* attitude in response.

I agree this is ideal, but it is not realistic.

People have a wide range of responses to male-bodied individuals who cross the gender line in terms of presentation, whether they go full out presenting as a woman or they present with mixed gender cues. Some people are OK with neither, some with one and not the other, and some are OK with both. And in each category, the reactions run from mild to severe depending on the onlooker's background, geographic location, religious or conservative views, exposure to a wide variety of cultural and gender expressions, etc.

[Hell on Heels]

Hell-o M&M,
I hear what your saying, I think
Are we all a bunch of posers
Dressing and "passing" shouldn't be questioned!
For those of is that choose to venture out into the "Vanilla" world
Why wouldn't we want to blend perfecttly?
But for those that stay home, and keep this all at home, never seen by anyone, why would you
even make any differential between "us and them"?
Passing is the best possible presentation, but not the best possible outcome for anyone.
We are all individuals, with different hopes and desires.
Good enough?
Much Love,
Kristyn

[Claire Cook]

So, you my sisters here, those who are on the transition path or on the presentation path.. I want to ask this: Why is someone else seeing the seams and edges a 'failure'? I know you WANT to present flawlessly is the ideal. I get that. But I have to wonder, why are you losing 'good' while seeking 'perfect'?

- MM

I guess I'm losing sight of the question here. I'm not on the transition path, and since I'm out and about I guess I'm on the "presentation path." Perfection? Back that to that closing line of Some Like It Hot. Do any of us feel like we are "perfect"? For that matter, how many GG's think they are "perfect"? It's not about passing so much as being myself and being comfortable with myself. Rogina has it dead on -- being comfortable, confident and engaging works wonders. I don't hide that fact that I'm a guy, but I try to look and act as much like a woman as I can. Like Ginger, it must work sometimes since a number of my GG friends have told me that they didn't realize I was a guy until I told them. But that's not the point for me: what is the point, and important to me, is that those who know me both ways treat me as the person I am. That is all that I could ask for.

[Dana does shopping]

Yes, Yes it is, to say otherwise is to expose Yourself to danger. Too much fear & in-tolerance run rampant in our society.

[Sara Jessica]

Contrarian view here. Yes, passing is very important to me. As someone in the midst of transition, I want to be accepted as a woman. I want to live as a woman and don't particularly want to be perceived as a man...

I thought about the very point you bring up Dianne when I first responded to this thread. The reason I didn't go there is because the woman in transition (or who has essentially completed that journey) isn't trying to pass, she is simply being who she is and living her life. She doesn't wish to be perceived as anything but female any more than the rest of us but she clearly has more at stake for much different reasons and through the physical elements of transition often does more to minimize or eliminate any mistaken impression as to who she really is.


Nonetheless, we should not use mediocrity as an excuse for failed achievement. Failing to strive and then blaiming the goal is failure, not success, and a "participation trophy" is not "first place." Is it possible to pass? I don't completely know because it may be impossible to tell "passing" from "acceptance." But as a woman who is accepted in many groups and social circles, greeted with hugs, smiles, and genuine warmth, I certainly believe that passing, far from being a "rediculous concept," is not only possible but is possible for many more of us if we strive to achieve it.

It is far from easy, and it certainly will never be a "participation prize" for those who fail to put forth the effort, but it is real and it is doable.

I don't think anyone is saying that we shouldn't do our absolute best.

And your situation is much more different than most in these pages. You are embedded, so to speak, in many female spaces, presumptively with no one the wiser. Or at least that is what I have taken from your many posts over the last few years.

Are you "passing"? Heck, I don't know and I don't believe you can be certain either. It is a scenario where you may be able to approach zero without ever reaching it...and perhaps come closer to that mark than many/most of us here. Then again, I'd put you in a category with more in common with Dianne than with a lot of us here, including myself.

And yes, acceptance is a vastly different concept from passing when discussed in context with one another. I am generally accepted as a female when presenting as such but I would never go so far to say that this means I pass. I think that is where the concept of blending has gained ground. Doing one's best, being perceived as best we can as a female, being treated as a woman and even full blown acceptance all speak to blending while doing very little to speak of one's unmeasurable passing ability.

Personally, I do strive for the prize but my point has always been that despite my best efforts, I have come to expect that I will be perceived as being other than female. Whether at first glance or the tenth, or whether some completely miss the point and perceive me as being nothing but female, it is all irrelevant. There is much less stress in my life because I accept this about myself. This does not imply mediocrity in my efforts in any way, shape or form. It doesn't mean I'm blaming the goal for my inability to get there. It is simply that the goal, as passing is generally defined or understood, is impossible to measure so why obsess over it.

If we wish to change the definition of passing to being accepted in female spaces without confrontation, then we're talking about an entirely different discussion. I think that's been done, it's called blending.

[ophelia]

For me dressing and appearing beautiful gets me horny and full of energy. And not thinking quite straight.
Doing it in public is a little dangerous and I am sure that's where all the adrenaline and endorphines take over.
The prettier I present the higher the level of these delicious hormones and drugs.
I am sure that some people detect a man in a dress. I am confident that no one is able to say just which man is in that lovely dress. That's passing for me.
That said I think that over dressing, and dressing out of age appropriateness are things which could get you the wrong attention.

[Judith96a]

So...(just asking)

Is it about YOUR perception of yourself, or about THEIR perceptions of you?

I gotta ask.

Who are you trying to please, and why?
...

I have used this example many times. You could look like Earnest Borgnine in a sundress.. and you should experience *NO* embarrassment. You didn't *fail*. You were being YOU.

Why is that so bad?

<3

- MM
MM,
Who am I trying to please? Me actually! But here's the thing... regardless of whether I'm in boy mode or girl mode I'm VERY uncomfortable with the perception that everyone around me is staring and laughing. Whether they have either cause to do so or any right to do so is effectively immaterial, I still feel embarrassed and acutely uncomfortable. Perhaps I shouldn't but I do and unless I undergo a complete personality transplant that's the reality that I'm stuck with. So, part of being myself and pleasing me consists of establishing for myself a level of presentation that minimises the opportunities for embarrassment and discomfort - thus allowing myself the freedom to enjoy being whichever version (boy / girl) of 'me' that I want to be. I see it as establishing realistic, achievable goals that allow me to do what I want to.

As for the "Earnest Borgnine in a sundress" thing - I just haven't the right personality to pull that off and 'own' it. I had a 'friend' at school who could have - absolutely, with the proverbial bells on - but I can't. We're all different.

By the way, if anyone else wants to be dissonant, not quite fit in etc. - that's fine! I'm not going to criticise them. It's just not my way of living, thriving & surviving!

P.S. Being read by the little old lady on the bus isn't a failure, it's an expected outcome for which I need to be prepared.

[mechamoose]

You are all so cool!

<enjoying the banter>

- MM

[SherriePall]

I'm almost afraid to jump in, but I will anyhow. Do I want to pass? Let me answer this way: I do the best I can with what I have, using my make-up, clothing, hair, accessories, etc., to present as a woman.
I don't really try to blend. I'm not dressed to kill whenever I go out, but I seldom wear pants (OK, a couple of times). I even wore a skirt once when it was about 15-20 degrees F. Granted it was a below the knee, heavier material skirt. That was not blending. I do have a femme work-type badge I clip to my purse or coat to make it appear I am dressed the way I am because of work.
That all said, let me say that I really try to keep them guessing. If they see me as female, great! If they don't, I hope I keep them guessing like one time I was leaving a beauty store as two older women came in. I went back a while later and the consultant told me that one of the women (forgive me if you heard this before) asked her if I were a lady. The consultant replied by asking, "What do you think?"
The woman said she thought I was a special girl (one who visits that chain checking up on the local franchise), but questioned seeing some hair on my arms (and I had kept on pulling the sleeves down on the sweater). The other woman with her hadn't even taken special note of me.
Another make-up artist who had worked with Divine and others, told me as she worked on my face that many women have some masculine features.
So, we just have to keep them guessing and that is all the passing we need.

[Candice Mae]

Lately I've been focusing on being my self, rather them worry about wether or not someone I do or wear will out me. It's nice to be comfortable, relaxed, and enjoy myself rather then go about looking like a deer in the headlights watching everyone else.

[katieh]

It is not so much about passing to fool others; I would like others to treat me like the person I feel I am and that is feminine.

[Eryn]

I used to think that I wanted to "pass" until I realized that it was an impossible goal. Somebody, somewhere is going to figure out my birth gender.

What I want now is to be me. To be accepted as the gender that I present.

Good people will do this regardless of whether they know my genetic makeup. People with an ax to grind will make sure that I know what they know, usually by "sirring" me even though I am obviously female. They have issues of their own but that is their problem, not mine.

[Tracii G]

I don't think we will ever get an answer to this question.

[Suzanne F]

It has changed for me. When I first went out 2 years ago, I wanted to be pretty. It was just magical to be free. I quickly learned to look people in the eye and hold my head up. I didn't need to apologize for being me! Allie and Rachael taught me to be out in the world as a woman and to look for interaction with the people we encountered. It wasn't about passing it was about belonging where ever we chose to be.

Now I am in the world as a woman every day. I had to learn that I couldn't always look like a million dollars. I had to find clothes that I could wear in all kinds of situations. I can't always fit in full makeup when I have to train in the afternoon and then go back out to a meeting later that night. I also wanted to blend in with my gg friends. I have my own style and it is a little blingy. However, I don't want to appear to need everyone's attention. It doesn't have to be about me all the time.

No I don't fool everyone. But make no mistake, I function as a woman. I am so grateful I found this site! I wouldn't have known where to start.
Suzanne

[PaulaQ]

It really is all about passing for me. But it really shouldn't have to be for anyone else.

I don't really think about it while I'm living my life - I'm just me. But when I don't pass - generally now limited to interactions on the phone where my voice just doesn't quite cut it yet - I am greatly annoyed.

I work on this stuff - a lot. In some ways, I'm a little ashamed of myself for my vanity. In other ways, I'm not, because I'm not trying to create some artificial image - that was my old life. Now I'm just trying to find myself - but that's a lot of work, as it happens.

I admire in many ways, those who don't try to pass at all. I believe sincerely we are all beautiful, whether passing or not. I'll never judge you - whether you pass or not. But I'm incredibly harsh with myself when I do not pass. The smart part of my brain feels this contradiction is incredibly stupid. Unfortunately, it's not the part of my brain that seems to care.

[Richelle]

What I want now is to be me. To be accepted as the gender that I present.

Good people will do this regardless of whether they know my genetic makeup.

Based on all the years that I have been out and about, I truly believe that most people are "good" and will treat us as the gender we are presenting as, so long as it is not over the top and that we are dressed as all the GGs are.

Richelle

[KlaireLarnia]

I don't think we will ever get an answer to this question.

You are not wrong, because for each of us it is about something different so we all have our own position and view on it.

[Dana does shopping]

Yes, Yes it is, to say otherwise is to expose Yourself to danger. Too much fear & in-tolerance run rampant in our society.

In light of the recent attack upon our sister, Isha from here I absolutely implore those venturing out to do so with Your personal safety in the forefront of Your minds always. My brawling days are way past, but there is an advantage to a good flight response ... just a little tougher in heels mind you...

[Connie61]

Do I dress to feel good or to look pretty? My answer is I want to be Connie on the outside whenever I can. She is in me all the time, but waits to be released. When I dress, I dress fully. From gaff to full makeup, nails, etc. I know I am not the female I want to be physically, but I feel I am when dressed. And that makes me feel on top of the world.

[kimdl93]

Suspect that the responses will group according to age groups. My path has so many switchbacks and forks that at times soul, body, and mind are going in three different directions. In the past several years, acceptance of what I am and will not ever be have moved in together and are quite happy cohabiting. "Good" is fine. The others can have perfect. But that will not keep me from trying to present as the best possible. Maybe not an unicorn but if I can get a saddle on it, then hang on!

I can't really add much to what Laura has said. I realize that I'll never approach an ideal, but I can accept myself as something other than perfect. Note I didn't say "less than". I don't feel that my deviations from an ideal diminish me in any way.

[Lily Catherine]

While I consider passing an ideal, the intentions behind attempting to pass are what I strongly dislike being questioned. The term 'trap', shorthand for the apparent mouthful that is 'cross-dresser', carries with it the connotation that we do so to deceive. Passing does come across as a form of camouflage, cover and/or concealment, though, which might be the basis for the notion.

In a milieu that fetishises authenticity, yet shuns social stigma, we as CDs, and especially those who attempt to pass, are in a tight middle ground. I refuse to discount sincerity in dealing with others, but does 'being yourself' entitle one to cross the line at all, and if so, how far? I guess a lot of what makes some of us (intending to pass) feel pretty is entirely in giving off overtly feminine cues, though, so passing becomes unavoidable.

The tone with which I hear many GMs and GGs whispering 'Is that a guy?' is audibly contemptuous though.

[Stephanie47]

I've pondered a very long time as to what has motivated me to wear women's clothing. My first article of women's clothing I fell in love with was nylon full slips. I truly was only interested in the feel of the garment. My mother hung them in the sole bathroom to hang dry or in the hallway on a clothesline to hang dry. I loved passing by them and caressing the slips. Soon I decided to try one on. I was hooked. Then I tried on one of her long nylon nightgowns. Oh, how I loved the feel. As I grew into my teen years I tried on a bra, a panty, a girdle and finally a dress. All of this dabbling called my sexuality into play. Society branded men who wore women's clothing as "faggots and queers" and basically were criminalized. It took a long time to shake that lack of understanding.

It just may be, if a man likes to wear women's clothing for the sheer fact he likes the textures of the fabric, the colors, etc, then maybe he has to go further and mask his male presence. I really love watching "Wheel of Fortunate" for Vanna White and the clothes she wears. Darn, if she does not turn me on!!!

So, what have I done? I know with my six foot even, 195 pound male body, I will not pass for the usual woman. Yes, there are women with my stature, but, they turn heads for reasons other than why people turn heads for Vanna White. I can shave fairly close (my face) and my legs are not hairy. In fact I lack hair on my calves. They have always been as smooth as a newborn baby. If I'm going to wear women's clothing, then it seems natural to look as womanly as possible. Hence, a bra with C-cup makes the relatively flat chested male body disappear. And the grey wig hides that balding head. I do not do makeup on a regular basis because it takes too much time. And, many GG's do not do makeup all the time. Sure, lip gloss, but, not the full deal.

It just seems natural to me that in my private world I should hide the guy side as much as possible. Some of the pictures I see on this site are head turning-beautiful womanly presentations. Many are like me- the guy is clearly visible. I try to hide my gender because, well,, guys are ot suppose to like wearing women's clothing.

[Jules Spirit]

What I noticed about my husband when he first started dressing in public was his lack of confidence and that is really what made him stand out. I mentioned this to him, and as he has worked hard to change this, the more people treat him like any other woman out and about I the world.
Pass or don't pass, just have confidence in what you do and people will respond in kind.