Trans enough

[arbon]

It comes up again and again.

Trans enough for what, exactly? Is it wanting to be validated that you belong in the club? The crossdressers club? The drag Queens club? The TS club? The I'm somewhere in-between club?

Who do you need to prove it to?

Is being trans fun and you want to be a part of that fun? I say go for it!

Well it can be alright in certain circumstances for me. Like I would really love to go the trans march in SF sometime, I could see myself totally getting into it and having a great time. I will totally flaunt and show off my trannyness with PRIDE!!

But most of the time in my real life I am sick of trans anything.
As far as I am concerned you can have it all - and if you feel your coming up a bit short with your own transness you can have every little bit of my mine and kick me out of you silly clubs, I don't want it :p

[mechamoose]

Who do you need to prove it to?

Full stop. Nobody else matters.

You need to be true to yourself. Until you do that, you *can't* do anything else.

If you can 'pass'.. then DO IT! IN SPADES! ROCK THAT SH!t!!

If you can't 'pass', does that make you any *less* of a person?

No. NO. NO! *&%^$ NO!!!

You have the right to be who you are, how you are, and what you are... without having to apologize to *anyone*.

You don't need some mundane's *approval* for that... honest.

- MM

[STACY B]

Hell No,,, Don't throw it my way ,,, I'll throw it back ,,, HARD ,, Don't know what the deal is with Trans Club ,, But this sure Ain't Dress up time ,, This is a brain disorder that is tough to live with ,, I wouldn't wish this on Anyone .

[Anne2345]

Personally, I think it's a blast and I have been having the absolute time of my life over the past several years!!

I have been working super, duper, crazy hard trying to be the most trans I can possibly be so I can win the big trophy!!! Rah rah YAY TROPHY!!!

I mean, there is a trophy for winning this game, right??

Because I'm pretty sure somebody told me that one time a few years back during a really long night of binge drinking. Or now that I'm thinking about it, maybe they said that this *wasn't* a game, but I was really, really drunk at the time and . . . . OMG!!! Holy crap!!! I've had it all wrong all this time!!! What have done to myself??!! What have I done to MY LIFE??!! DEAR GOD WHAT HAVE I DONE???!!!! AND THERE'S NO TROPHY???!!!!!

Lol. Yeah. Whatever, right?

I just wanna live GD free. Nothing more, nothing less. If I gotta burn my world completely down to the ground and start over again to do this, well, then, I would say I am absolutely heading in the right direction, fwiw . . . .

But omfg I get soooooo tired of it at times. Like every single day. Would that I could have stayed out of THIS club, I wouldn't have even looked in through the window much less knocked on the damn door. And to whoever answered the door and invited me in, if I *ever* see you in person, I'm gonna punch you right straight in your tranny face hole!

Ugh.

Stupid no-trophy-thingy, though!!!

[mechamoose]

I just wanna live GD free. Nothing more, nothing less.

'D' is for 'Disphoria', right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysphoria

" It can also mean someone that is not comfortable in their current body, particularly in cases of sex dysphoria. Common reactions to dysphoria include emotional distress or indifference."

You have to please YOU before you even have the chance to please anyone else.

You have the *right* to define who *you* are.

Presbyterian? Democrat? Flat-Earth? Demonologist?

Irrelevant.. YOU get to define YOU. *I'm* not going to challenge you on that. I *CAN'T*.

I don't define you.

<3

- MM

[Jorja]

There are No trophies, you do not collect $200 when you pass go, No touchdown, goal, homerun or basket. There is just you finally living the life you were supposed to. Your past world in flames and rubble. It is totally up to you whether you rise like a Phoenix or shrivel up and disappear with the wind. Your choice!

[whowhatwhen]

Trans march wasn't that big of a deal imho, but then again I went alone and terrified of crowds so YMMV.

[arbon]

Oh why are you ruining it for me :/

[Anne2345]

Oh why are you ruining it for me :/

Because you're not trans enough, silly!!! :hmph:

:tongueout

[arbon]

There is just you finally living the life you were supposed to.

Thats all it is about.

How trans you are or not does not matter. Its about being okay with yourself. If your okay with yourself wearing womens cloths great. With taking hormones great. changing your name and legal id to female great. surgeries great. don't need to do any of the above great. Whether others accept you as trans or not means nothing.

[Nigella]

You only have one skin, you need to be comfortable in it otherwise you will be scratching the itch for the rest of your life.

[LeaP]

Theresa, the whole syndrome evokes some pretty strong reactions in me. We always say we wouldn't wish it on anyone. Well for once, I do wish it on others. Maybe they need to experience the pain, depression, and uncertainty, the anger (in us and at us), the loneliness and suicide attempts, and the mind-numbing fear. You can pile on financial concerns, relationship damage, medical worries, and more.

There is a lot of suffering in this. And the suggestion alone that there is some sort of orchestrated competition in this is outrageous.

That does not mean that status is not accorded. All human interactions carry this to some extent. It may revolve around power or money, organizational position, social standing, family, education, alignment and loyalty, and a million other things. Part and parcel of humankind being a social animal is conscious and unconscious ranking using a huge number of variables.

I can list a bunch of them that relate to being trans. Easily. Here are a few that pertain to me as well as some of the implications for how I am viewed by others.

I'm MTF – that makes me commonplace in some places (or rankings, loosely used). Suspicious in still others.

I'm a late transitioner - automatically inauthentic to some. Crazy to some others. "Obviously" either sexually motivated or making a lifestyle choice from the standpoint of some very early transitioners. My level of gender conflict must be much less intensive than many others, of course.

I am married – rendering me instantly selfish and self-centered to many. A betrayer and breaker of covenants. Someone that does not properly understand sacrifice. Probably even someone who rejects God, to some.

I'm employed and successful – which must mean that womanhood is impossible as I've never been subject to the issues and ceilings women experience.

I'm on hormones - I'm brave. I'm weak. I'm stupid. I'm brilliant because I'm doing it this way…. I obviously have no idea what I'm doing because I am doing it this way….

I have been on hormones "long" time and haven't socially transitioned yet – Less intense, obviously. Rationalizing and justifying… One of those people who is forever stuck. Wow. What a fount of information on hormones. "You know, living as a man with those kinds of changes is really screwed up."

I went through a therapist and followed the SOC guidelines - I must be real because this was long and rigorous. I told the therapist exactly what she wanted to hear. I did it the right way. I played into the medicalization and control of transsexuals.

I don't go out a lot – That's okay, most of us stop this until we transition. I'm out of my mind and have no idea what I'm talking about because the social experience is the most important. (Another fun variation with this one is that anyone who does go out often accords themselves more authority than even people with other conditions than their own.)

I'm not pretty, I'm not slim enough, and I need some work to be truly passable. Some people will never associate with me because of those. On the flipside, neither am I a troglodyte or an embarrassment. Forget what others think. What I think is "I hate you!" in regards to the first group and "thank God I'm not like that" in regards to the second. I should probably mention that I have more charitable feelings as well, but no one seems to care about those…

See how all this goes? You're in, you're out, you're authentic, you're not, credible or not, better or less than, etc. Just like the rest of life!

So what? You (addressing the air here not you specifically, Theresa) think that's going to change because you have a gender issue of some sort? Where the charge of status, ranking, elitism, etc. falls flat isn't that people don't think or even engage among themselves in this sort of thinking. It is in the assumption of a cabal. There isn't one! No universal agreement on trannydom is to be had anywhere. No in group or clique. Some that get that label (anyone bold enough to share their little list?), but plenty who disagree.

Down to brass tacks. Do I believe that some people are transsexual and others are not? Leaving aside the really stupidly obvious answer to that question, yes – even among those who represent themselves as such. How about whether I believe there is some sort of relative status among TS? Yes, sort of. That is, because I believe in a hard distinction between transsexuals and others with different gender issues, it follows that I prioritize certain considerations that lead to that conclusion. What's not as obvious is that although I recognize intensity differences (for example) among actual transsexuals, I don't extend the comparative thinking to those I regard as non-transsexual. In that sense – and in that sense only – I simply don't care. I repeat: I. Don't. Care.

Fine. Now some can, and will, take that as an "inside – outside" distinction and further imply that it is exclusionary by nature. They will do it despite the fact that it doesn't remotely reflect my thinking. And some of them will compound that by insisting that I am in denial on the point. I don't care. Not because it doesn't fit in with the exclusionary nature of my little clique, but because my experience, advice, and participation here is not terribly pertinent to those who don't share the same condition.

This is one of those terrible, horrible things that seems to haunt people in this forum. To wit – if you are a male identified cross dresser, I only have the dimmest notion of what it is like to live your experience. That I thought I did at one time is immaterial. That I lived my life as a man helps, but doesn't go terribly far. In short, as strange as this will sound to some of those who have read this far, I have no idea why someone who identifies as a man would want to dress in women's clothing. And I'm not going to be very good at helping you if you view that as a problem. I can only help as it pertains to people like me who once thought they were such only to discover they were not.

Conversely, I'm excluded from the so-called ranks of true transsexuals by all kinds of combinations of people. Again, I don't care. WHY WOULD I?

I get it. But I don't.

[Anne2345]

I had not heard that one before, Nigella. That's pretty good. That's pretty good, that is, if by "scratching the itch for the rest of your life" you really mean "ripping your f'ing flesh clean off your body trying to stop a maddening itch that will never, ever, ever stop but will only get worse and worse and worse until you just rip it all right off and smash your brain on to the ground over and over and over again until it's no more and the pain is forever gone." If that's what you *really* meant, then it's spot on.

[Nigella]

I don't have a way with words, you said it much better than I did Anne :)

[arbon]

Yes Anne, you really do have a very visually descriptive way of saying things :)

Wow, thank you Lea for your comments on this. You explained what I think very well.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Thank you Lea..I really appreciated what you wrote..

[Carlene]

Lea, I think you have captured the complexities involved very well. The only thing I might add is the question, " for whom are we trans enough?" At the end of the day, perhaps, the person best to answer such a query, shoud be ourself. Do I believe that I am enough?

[Cindy J Angel]

Yes this is very hard and at times i dont feel i am tran enough to be on this fourm or be in the club. I had to go the the VA today. I was looking through my papper work and found my Dr notes were he wrote that i wented to transition. And the first thing i though of was to post it just to show how tran i was. I have thought of this time and time agen hell aver @÷÷=%/= day. I read aver bodys hard luck story and hope i wont have go through it. But i know if or when i can no longer take it. That will be my f=€= story. I worry how will i live were will i live can i take care of my self. This shit is what we all think of at times, I went to throw the towel in walk a way get the ÷€=&^ shit out of here. Then hours later iam back reading more crap trying to figure out how to get to the next step. Trying to be me with out losing aver thing. To day i had app with the VA i got to be me it was a very good day. I was treated with respect I felt I was a human being not a freak. At the va you have to show ID so thay know right off. I was treated as ME i felt i was ME. I was going to post that. But then i read this post. This is a good post for all i have went to start a post like this. We seam to be on a scale how trains are we are we are one are we ten. Why can we just b a 5 and that be ok.
Because we all went the 4£=€=£trophy and aver day some one moves it a little further down the road. Will i get there i dont know i do know i will just put one foot in front of the outher and keep moving. And when I stumble I hope you're there to help me love cindy

[Marleena]

Are we having fun yet? That's all I got....

[Aprilrain]

You guys are all just jealous cause you can't be as tranny as me!

[PretzelGirl]

Interesting the variations. I abdicate mine on a regular basis just because I don't need to wrap it around myself like a blanket on a cold day. But I can't see it gone all together as that would be leaving here and not being there for others local to me. So that is "trans enough" and that is good enough for me. Until I change my mind tomorrow anyway....

[arbon]

I can understand to why it comes up in the way that it does.
some of what went through my head 3 years ago, 4 years ago, 5 years ago- I did feel a need for the approval and acceptance of the women here and other ts women I was starting to know. I did feel like I sometimes needed to defend my transness with them - but it was not because of them, it was my own doubts and insecurities. I very much cared about what others thought of me. Sometimes I would get into arguments here and say things I regretted. It took me a while to find my own footing. It took me a while to some find confidence in myself and to get past feeling that need for others approval.

Even back when I started hrt I did not ask my therapist for a letter approving them for me because at the time I was afraid I was not really trans enough for her to approve them. So I did them without her avoiding the possible rejection. Though she did write me a letter about a year later. Pathetic I guess. After three years of not seeing or talking to her, I saw her again yesterday to have her write me a letter for surgery. The thought of not being trans enough for her to write the surgery letter never even crossed my mind. What a difference? How much I have changed. And when I met her yesterday it did not seem like it was really trans thing at all, but a womans issue.

[Suzanne F]

I know it doesn't matter if anyone approves of me or my decisions on this forum. However I do often compare notes to somehow assure myself I am not just crazy. Again I know better but I still do it.

There does seem to be a tone that if life isn't hell then we aren't TS because we aren't suffering enough. For me the suffering was greater or at least different when I had not shared my secret with anyone on this planet. The pain drove me to places I wouldn't wish on anyone. I have been clean and sober now for 13 years. I hoped I could avoid the truth but in the end rigorous honesty was the only way. I came out to my wife.

So now I am out everywhere except work and that will happen within the next year. HRT begins next month. Yes I could lose my wife and my job. So I guess I qualify. However, I feel like for the first time I have chosen to accept myself. I feel that if I face this great things are possible. I am excited about living in this world as the person I was meant to be! I want to be joyful and have gratitude that the hiding is over. Every new situation I have faced as a woman I have passed. I intend to continue to face challenges until they bury me in a beautiful and tasteful outfit!

Oh one more thing. I marched in the Trans Parade in San Francisco last year with my 16 year old daughter. Marching down Market Street was one of the most emotional experiences of my life. Simply the best!

Suzanne

[PaulaQ]

... I did feel a need for the approval and acceptance of the women here and other ts women I was starting to know. I did feel like I sometimes needed to defend my transness with them - but it was not because of them, it was my own doubts and insecurities. I very much cared about what others thought of me. Sometimes I would get into arguments here and say things I regretted.


Well, it doesn't help that really, we are often on our own - it's up to us to figure out what we need to do, even in many cases down to medical procedures. Reassurance from someone who's been down this path ahead of us helps - it's helpful too be told, "yeah, I felt the same way," especially when almost everyone else in the world tells you that you are delusional. Look, the argument "you have guy parts so you must be a man" is hard to argue with, because 99.7% of the time, it's true.

I can identify with what you wrote Theresa. I was very insecure and terrified when I started here, and really was at the end of my rope. I knew who I was, but I was terrified to go forward. And it was a difficult proposition to accept that everyone who'd known me during my entire life was just flat wrong about me. That sounded like insanity to me. Unlike you, I still say things I sometimes end up regretting later.

There are two things I intensely dislike about the act of judging another "not sufficiently trans." For one thing, such an attitude really erases and trivializes the experience of another -- an experience often fraught with real suffering. My experience as a trans* may be very different than that of another, but neither is more valid than the other. For another thing, such judgments, especially if they are based on what medical treatments one may have undergone, or outward appearances, just smack of privilege. Some people just have a tougher time of all this through no real fault of their own. Some of us are ridiculously lucky (if good "luck" is even a concept that even applies to being trans), and have an easier time through no real merit on our parts. (I feel the latter applies to me in many ways. This has been incredibly difficult, but I know others far worse off than I am.)

The strange part of it is, now, that I don't care whether or not anyone thinks I'm trans enough. Not anymore. Now I concern myself with being the most authentic woman I can be, and with trying to be a better person, and to do the right things for others. In a lot of ways, I don't really think of myself as trans. Oh, I most assuredly am, and I don't hide it. But though I call myself a "trans woman", honestly, that's mostly for medical and political purposes. I really just think of myself as a woman.

[Karen62]

Arbon, I do relate to your thoughts on this. I lived a life of 52 years not really understanding what the hell was wrong with me and why I feel this uncontrollable urge to express myself as feminine at times (and then the overwhelming urge to repress and hide that femininity from the world). When New Years Eve came around a few months back, a medical crisis forced me to re-evaluate my life priorities. I sat there, in front my my computer, fully dressed, and thought, "Hmmm, if I have a limited amount of time left as the doctor said, what should I do with it?*" I looked down at my body as I sat in the chair and said "WTF am I doing all this for? Why do I do this? Why can't I stop? What is the meaning of all this?" It was on that night that I decided to quit living in denial, quit living the lie (especially to myself), and to accept myself as transgendered with an agenda to find out how deep this mess goes. And with the lifting of the lid on Pandora's Box (and with the help of my therapist), I realized I have been transsexual all of my life, and all of these weird things now suddenly made sense.

That all said, when I joined this forum, I did so to learn from all of you and to find a community of people. I have been plagued with the "not trans enough" worry the entire time I've been here. But one of my big fears was, after for the first time in years (decades?) of feeling like I had found a community of people like me, that I would lose that, too, if I was discovered or assessed as "not trans enough." This is a freakin' scary road to be on (although getting off the road now seems to be out of the question). I have gotten so much out of the conversation with all of you here, and the fear of being cast aside as "not trans enough" has been a real worry for me.

This thread has actually be cathartic for me. I keep making the mistake in thinking that what I am going through is just happening to me, that no one else feels like I do. Yeah, I am a fool. But I do feel small and insignificant as I am still a new member, still so new to the road I am on, still so cautious about going out, still so tied up in anxiety, even though I do acknowledge that I have taken some big steps that just months ago would have been unimaginable. I am deeply humbled to hear many of you to whom I look up to as leaders and wise women share many of the same feelings.

Arbon, your last paragraph was pretty telling. I think you, like me, have not fully recognized the huge steps you have taken in your life (especially you compared to me!). I hope you find as much strength in this thread as I have. Thank you for starting it.

Karen

* I don't want to hijack this thread, but some context to what I wrote above: As to the aforementioned medical crisis, I was officially diagnosed with a severe form of incurable, untreatable, and potentially fatal genetic kidney disease after a genetic test confirmed it. However, I have reasons to also think that kidney doctor was a ego-centric @$$ as I asked him tough questions about his knowledge of the disease, especially my highly unusual version of it, and when I questioned his broad proclamations about my being track (to get kidney failure), his answers to my questions were that "It doesn't matter". It's a long story, but I have reasons to believe I will be fine, for at least a while, if not for a very long time. But every twinge of discomfort I feel because of my kidneys is another reminder that I am on this road for a reason, and there is no regret. Just keep moving forward and find that life I've always wanted -- peace is there (I surely hope).

[gonegirl]

No trophy? What do you mean, no trophy???

Seriously this time.... My "trophy" is acknowledging who I am and living who I am: a woman.

[jaleecd]

I have read your stories and hardships for several years as a member and also a lurker. I believe you when you say that you are women. No one signs on to that life path, unless there were inner pressures that made that self analylasis true to you personnaly. I know that some of the most trannys, proved to be an life of fiction, most of them are no longer on this board. I cannot envision the pain suffered to get the external to prove the internal womaness that you have experienced. I applaud your journey and victories. peace......

[GabbiSophia]

Lea that hit home. Theresa whoever you gives yours to they can have mine too. At what point do we "just get to live" our lives?

[LeaP]

... At what point do we "just get to live" our lives?

Right now!

The major point of my little rant is that this is life as usual. I.e., social evaluation happens everywhere, all of the time. Sensitivity in one area relative to others is important as an indication your vulnerabilities. The social realities may or may not interfere with your life (and you can often take action to deal with that), but don't fundamentally change.

[docrobbysherry]

Actually,"transness" is just one of COUNTLESS issues everyone of us encounters on a daily basis our entire lives.

The difference is, we haven't been trained since we were young to learn how to deal with it. Even worse, many of us were trained since infanthood to be men. So, we r ill equipt to deal with the sudden realization we r, or wish to be, women! Never mind trying to figure out WHY we want to be. Didn't discuss this in your Humanities 101 class did they?

What others think of us DOES MATTER! If u believe otherwise, you've got your head stuck in the sand. The sooner u figure out who to tell, who not to tell, and exactly how much? The better off you'll feel!

And, like it or not, your transness does count. Here, and everywhere else. As long as people can see u, they will judge u. An unfortunate, but absolutely true fact of life.

[Nicole Erin]

The only time my trans-ness becomes an issue in my daily life is the dating scene. Even then, it isn't THAT bad.
You get to a point when you stop obsessing over being TG and just live. After you have been through the rough patches we suffer, it is just a normal life.

I have TG friends but I am not trying to be "in the club" cause I am beyond all that.

[Starling]

As I carry on my daily life, mostly looking almost like a man, I often wonder if my intuition that I'm a woman is just a fantasy or delusion. And I berate myself for expecting those to whom I have come out to think anything but that, given that only a few of them have been in a room with the real me more than once or twice. It's only to be expected that they would have trouble seeing me as a woman. One old and supportive friend has told me it would be a lot easier for her to come to terms with my real self if I lived full time, and I understand, and sympathize; it would be much easier for me, too.

I've spent enough decades carrying me around in my head to know I'm a woman. But I'll tell you where I'm really not "trans enough," and that's in my inability so far to put my needs above the needs of others, even to the brink of despair. I'm a total failure at that. I'm such an empath that the feelings of others seem more real and legitimate to me than my own, and overwhelm my meager supply of amour de soi. Pardon my French.

I try to write like a highly-structured, logical person. I take care to make sure my spelling is correct, and my sentences and paragraphs flow smoothly, in order to express what I'm trying to say, accurately and clearly. But inside I'm an effing mass of turmoil and self-loathing, ready to explode. My C-reactive protein is tending off the charts, and I don't know where this is all going to lead; but at this point I would welcome someone or something else taking it out of my hands.

:) Lallie

[Kaitlyn Michele]

for many people the tag line will end up being..

....sorry, unfortunately you ARE trans enough....

[KellyJameson]

I believe the seeds for GD are planted very early regardless of when they finally take root. One of the common feelings is "feeling like a second class woman" that transsexual women feel and react to "until they transcend it".

Transitioning is driven by the need to feel congruence but wrapped up in that need are other needs and one is to also escape the feeling of being "second class" as "not as good". From what I have witnessed this is a deep insecurity that seems to be extremely prevalent among transsexual women even though it is usually strongly denied.

The problem for women is that so much of their identity as women is created out of their bodies as either through physical beauty and or procreative powers (fertility)

Women that cannot bear children or have lost breasts to cancer have experienced this as an attack on their identity as a woman potentially feeling like "less of a woman" in comparison to other women.

A mans body does not carry the same symbolic weight as representative of his identity as a womans does. This is one of the things feminism is trying to address. To free women from the dangers of identifying with her body as her only value. (Being an object in those ways her body can be made useful)

Transsexual women are vulnerable to experiencing the extremes that create profound insecurity in natal women because of their position in relationship to natal women.

If a natal women is not good enough than a transsexual women is even less good enough.

When you transition you also transition into the toxic and poisonous atmosphere that surrounds women because they are women as to the reasons they are valued by the culture.

Transsexual women inherit the problems of being a woman that women are trying to escape from but with an added twist that makes them even more vulnerable to not being able to escape these attacks on self worth and esteem that are woven into the culture by being "born a woman"

There are thousands of paradoxes in being trans and one is that the more you transition and certainly once you completely transition you than must actively reject many of the more toxic values and behaviors that come with being a woman that have been "put upon her"

You have to escape being viewed as a second class person because you are a woman while also escaping the feeling of being a second class woman in relationship to women.

If you cannot you will be trapped in perpetual self loathing with the added danger of mistaking this for how you felt pre-transitioning, leading to the possible conclusion that you were never meant to transition which equals REGRET

Transitioning eliminates GD but it does not eliminate insecurity born out of believing the more toxic messages of the culture we live in and its extremely distorted and superficial values.

Transitioning is not just about what kind of woman you will be but more importantly what kind of person because how you answer that will decide if you end up a miserable unhappy woman.

[Angela Campbell]

Dunno. I just live as me, don't really think about trans much anymore. Guess I'm not trans as much as I am a woman.

[LeaP]

You guys are all just jealous cause you can't be as tranny as me!

Judging from your latest avatar, I'd say you are less interested in joining us as an Acolyte Princess of the TresClique ("tray-click-ay") in Adoration of Her Elite Holiness than you are in channeling one of the Queens of the Great Folk Scare of the 60's. But is it as satifying to be Joni Mitchell? She's so, so individual ... Surely you would feel better knowing your place?

[Marleena]

Peer pressure and being part of this peer group makes us want to live up to the group's expectations. Everybody loves success stories but some of us are struggling. Everybody has to make the best of it no matter what their circumstances. I prefer to be tranny-less.:)

[mechamoose]

LeaP: I*do* wish it on everyone!!!!

At least they would then have a clue about those of us who don't have a choice.

- MM

[Aprilrain]

Judging from your latest avatar, I'd say you are less interested in joining us as an Acolyte Princess of the TresClique ("tray-click-ay") in Adoration of Her Elite Holiness than you are in channeling one of the Queens of the Great Folk Scare of the 60's. But is it as satifying to be Joni Mitchell? She's so, so individual ... Surely you would feel better knowing your place?

I can do both. And I write my own songs and they are anything but folky I'm more sophisticated than 3 chords, I ues 4.

[Kaitlyn Michele]

I use 2 chords. Much easier.

[Rachel Smith]

I just write words and let someone else deal with the difficulties of putting music to them.

[becky77]

I'm a woman so how can I possibly be Trannier than anyone? I wonder if I can be more womanly.......

I heard a comment recently that TS think they are the pinnacle of crossdressing.
Here in lies one of the issues, TS may share similarities with crossdressers and often think they once were crossdressers. The thing is us TS end up screwed up and going through counselling etc and then we learn it has nothing to do with clothes, it's about identity. Crossdressers that identity as male usually don't understand this difference and that difference makes us as different as Cats are to Lions. There is no pecking order as we are not even on the same page.

The second issue is those that have transitioned/transitioning vs those that don't. It's not that there is a hierarchy but for one it is still analysis and wishes another it is reality and that reality changes you.
The guy that spends hours learning and exploring what it is to skydive, can he really relate to the guy that has actually jumped out of a plane? If the guy that has done it says, you don't know what it's like. Is he 'Divier' than the other or just more experienced?

Just as well I don't have any trans friends (in the real world). As with hardly any Testosterone, I do not have the competitiveness to out Trans someone.

[jsunic_1978]

Im not a TRANSITIONING female but i NEED to express my self as a WOMAN. this started out just having the FETISH for the clothes/ shoes. i believe the fettish was subconsciously SUPPRESSING my female side to COME OUT. and fetishes NEVER go away, but im addressing the issue by just being ME :)

[Rachel Smith]

You only have to be trans enough for 1 person and that is yourself!!

[whowhatwhen]

Actually I'm just doing all this to turn straight men gay and bring about the destruction of traditional family values.

[Heather25]

Argh! One of those times when I find myself looking for a "like" button on my his forum!

In all seriousness though, this is one of those threads that I really enjoy and gain insight from reading.

[Nicole Erin]

Actually I'm just doing all this to turn straight men gay and bring about the destruction of traditional family values.

W W W, you good lady, are ROTTEN enough to be a child of the 80's. But you are too young to be a true one.
Therefore, it is MY privilege to name you an honorary child of the 80's

And honey, you know how many "straight" men love us?

[LeaP]

I use 2 chords. Much easier.

Chords? Guitar??

Two words: "Scruggs Style"

[Aprilrain]

I've decided to start making experimental "tranny" music. I'm writing a song using only an E7sus4 and the the word tranny but in Khoekhoe.

And Lea, who said anything about a guitar, I was talking about a didgeridoo!

[whowhatwhen]

And honey, you know how many "straight" men love us?

That's why I'll start 'em out gentle before sending them off to the bears.

[DebbieL]

The transgender world is a crazy world in which there are many shades of grey, and millions of colors.
Benjamin just used 6 degrees, from:
1 (cis-gender),
2 (periodic/fetish),
3 (passing),
4 (public),
5 (wants transition),
6 (must transition).

Kinsey gave 6 grades of sexual preference:
1 (heterosexual in desire and preference),
2 (bisexual fantasies, heterosexual behavior),
3 (bisexual fantasies, some gay, mostly hetero activities),
4 (bisexual fantasies, bisexual activity),
5 (bisexual fantasies, mostly gay behavior,
6 (gay fantasies, gay behavior)

That's at least 36 possible combinations available, from the gay fetish dresser to the drag queen to the transsexual lesbian.

Unfortunately, it took a few decades for Benjamin and his colleagues to break the association between gender identity and sexual preference. Even in the 90s, many therapists thought that you couldn't be type 6 transsexual if you also had a desire for the "opposite sex from your birth sex".

Then there is the incongruity between one's actual life practices and their true identity and preference. Someone who is type 6 transsexual may be forced, or choose to live as a heterosexual cis-gender male in public life because the consequences of discovery or transition are more than they can accept. We have seen many reports of girls like Leena Alcorn, who was beaten and isolated because she revealed her true self to her parents. To her parents, he seemed like a sweet boy, and they even thought he was accidentally hit by a truck, until her note on facebook, and the driver's statements, made it clear that SHE had walked in front of the truck so it couldn't avoid hitting her.

I had to delay my transition because my ex-wife had made credible threats that if I continued with transition, she would stop me from having ANY contact with our kids, but I would still have to pay full child support, day-care, and extra expenses.

The question isn't whether you, or someone else, is trans enough, but rather where each of us is in our own lives. It can be very painful to be a 5-6 in gender (transition recommended or needed), and have to live the public life of a cis-gender male, who most people assume are gay because he is so feminine.

There is often a struggle to find people who are in a similar space to where we are, or where we want to be. I was type 6, but when I tried to talk to drag queens they said I was just a gay man who was deceiving myself (because they were gay men who just liked dressing up for tips and shows). When I talked to cross-dressers, they made it clear that they were MEN who liked being men, and had no desire to transition and couldn't imagine why any sane man would. When I talked to transsexuals, they saw the guy who was feminine but would have to make so many changes to pass, and couldn't imagine that I was as severely in need of transition as they were. A few post-op transsexuals even tried to tell me that I would hate it because I would have to hide the fact that I was ever a male.

Sadly, so many of us live in stealth, both before and after transition, that we often find it hard to communicate to each other, let alone stand up for each other in public. 99% of the people I see in the world have no idea that I was a man. I'm an older woman with a slightly deep voice, but my voice is higher than my wife's. When we are out in public, we don't engage in PDAs, so most people see us as two women friends, maybe sisters, having dinner together.

The greatest barrier to transition for most of us, is ourselves. We often know in our hearts that we hate being seen as males, as boys, as men. We are not alpha males, and don't even want to be. We may not even be attracted to alpha males. We just want to be able to be our TRUE selves, which happens to be female. Some of us, perhaps many of us, are also intersexed to some degree or another. We have female brains, skeletal structure, and unusual male anatomy. With the advent of the MRI, CT scans, and ultrasound, which allow examination internal organs without surgery, they are discovering that many transgender males even have residual female parts.

For decades, statistical counts of the transgender community were based exclusively on those who went on record as actively seeking transition. Those who were cross-dressers or fetish dressers were protected by doctor-patient confidentiality and often kept their secret so well that even their own parents, wives, and children didn't know. It was only with the advent of the Internet that it became possible to uniquely identify and survey thousands and eventually millions of transgender people, both FtM and MtF, and discover that the transgender population was MUCH larger than anyone had estimated, possibly as high as 1 in 10 children is a type 3 or higher.

Part of the problem is the persecution of transgender people, especially transgender boys. Athletic coaches and gym teachers often try to get better performance out of their players by calling them "girls" or "ladies", which creates a general consensus among male athletes that a feminine male is a low form of humanity, and such feminine boys become the target for physical assaults, sexual assaults, verbal abuse, and public humiliation, often several times a day on a daily basis, including the formative years from age 6 to 12 when social, emotional, and sexual patterns are established. Transgender boys, seeking to avoid this persecution often go into "deep cover", almost like undercover cops or spies. They have to try and avoid the persecution by hiding their transgender desires. Often the physical abuse also sours their willingness to show any attraction to men. Even in high school, it can be incredibly confusing because they don't interact with girls the way boys usually do. They look a girl in the eyes instead of staring at her breasts, they compliment the girl on her hair, jewelry, wardrobe, or shoes, instead of making general references to their bodies, they socialize with girls easily, but don't seem to respond to flirtation, or become very confused when a girl flirts with them. Often they are perceived as gay even though they are terrified of males due to their violent past.

So if we have 36 possible slots which show the "ideal situation" based on someones true identity and preference, and we have 36 possible slots of "apparent situation" based on how someone appears to the outside world, we can see that it can be nearly impossible to find a match for both types. The problem is that we are looking for people who were like we are now, and have become what we want to be. We may be barely passable and are in our male mode, when we see a woman who is beautiful and we just barely realize that she's transgender. We want to go up to her and ask her all sorts of questions, because she is being who we have always dreamed of being. Yet when we approach her, she either runs or acts very threatened, because she sees what looks like a cis-gender man about to blow her cover and make her a target for all kinds of abuse.

Sadly, the most important thing of all, is for you to be willing to look at where you really want to be! If I could wave a magic wand and turn you into a beautiful, attractive, and pretty woman or girl, and change you back when you wanted, what would you do? Would you change yourself into a girl then break the wand so nobody could change you back? Would you keep the wand and switch at will? Or would you change your level of attractiveness based on time, place, and situation?

There is no right or wrong answer, but knowing where you want to go is probably the most important part of the process. The next part, the hardest part, is telling people in your life who might be willing or able to help you, or might reject you. You normally have to tell at least 12 people before the doors to people who can help you begin to open. It's often a friend of a friend of a friend, of one of those 12 people. Even then, there may be fear and distrust at first.

The hardest part of all, is when you finally get the courage to tell someone you think can help you, and they reject you. The wife who says she wants a divorce, the father who beats you, the mother who throws you out of your house, the relative who has you kidnapped by a conversion camp where you are tortured, harassed, and even raped, to "convert" you into a good "normal" boy or man, then monitored for signs of "regression". The hardest of all, for me, was telling a psychologist, social worker, nurse, doctor, or professional - and then being told "I can't talk to you about that" and actually REFUSING to allow any further discussion.

If you want to be a girl, even part time, then you are transgender enough - to need some help, some guidance, some support, from people you can trust.

[jsunic_1978]

Actually I'm just doing all this to turn straight men gay and bring about the destruction of traditional family values.

too bad i am not just GAY and i like FEMALES, but i live as a female when im not at work, im 80 percent female LOT HARDER than just being GAY, i have no social life and no dating life, but im more at INNER PEACE with my self for just being ME.....the trade offs.....

Then again vthis is a JOURNEY..... we will all all new friends and CIRCLE ONCE A WHOLE NEW LIFE AND LETTING GO OF THE past.

[Aprilrain]

If you're trans (feminine) and you like girls then you ARE gay.

[jsunic_1978]

That works for ME :) and i do how ever like TRANS women also :) im ready to start getting out there. confidence is STRONG NOW :) Been just living and errand running as female for a while now, dining out etc :)

[Aprilrain]

Gotta start somewhere

[Nicole Erin]

Y'all are over-thinking this life too much.

[whowhatwhen]

if ( IsPersonBreathing && HasConsent )
LETSGETMURRAYED()


Seriously though I've considered being with another woman/transwoman for my first despite being more attracted to guys.

[LeaP]

True, Erin, true. It's pretty hard to avoid overthinking this sometimes. Then too, it's a shame that the quality of some of the thinking here is so dubious. I don't know which is worse – being so trans ("trans enough") that you are compelled to do something about it, or trying to muddle your way through it on the basis of the information here.

(Just so no one thinks the comment above is, well, elitist or anything, I have contributed my own bits of bias and information, too.)

Readers – choose carefully whom and what to believe!

[Kaitlyn Michele]

Underthinking it is more dangerous to your quality of life in my opinion

And definitely read all the posts but you have to put in effort to get to know where people are coming from.

Sorry debbie but so much of what you say is just your own conjecture, assumptions, opinions and projection of your own feelings that its important to point that out... plus less is much more sometimes, all the other stuff makes getting to what's important and good difficult.

[Sammy777]

If you're trans (feminine) and you like girls then you ARE gay.

What? WHat?? WHAT?!?!?
Hold the phone there one minute April!
This is the first I am hearing of this, and I have attended all the double super secret meetings, I have I tell you! I have my honorary trench coat, hat, scarf and Secret Decoder ring.

All this time I just thought I was a just a straight girl, who just so happen to really, REALLY, like seriously I mean, REALLY liked the company of other women............. In my bed :devil:

No one ever told me I was, was one of them Gays!
I flabbergasted! I demand a recount! A second opinion!

First I'm a TS and now THIS?!? Where will it all end? Wheerrree!!!!!!!!!

"Take your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty ape!" I, apparently am a GAY and like women!

"I'm a seeker too. But my dreams aren't like yours.
I can't help thinking that somewhere in the universe there has to be something better than man.
Has to be."

:lol2:
Thank you George Taylor (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0063442/trivia?tab=qt&ref_=tt_trv_qu" "target=blank) for your wonderful words of wisdom.

[Kathryn Martin]

Trans enough for what, exactly? :p

I think this question stops being asked and becomes completely irrelevant when you live outside of trans-land. I agree with Lea in drawing a hard line distinction between transsexed persons and those with gender issues. It is really quite simple.

Once you just simply live your life the question whether you are described as biologically male with severe body dysmorphia to the point you acted on it or transsexual means nothing anymore. You just live your life. I don't care what you or anyone else thinks. I am happy living my life, MY life, as incidentally I have always done.