Gender Stereotypes and learned fear [Archive] - Crossdressers.com - #1 Community & Forum for Crossdressers, Family and Friends

Greenie

03-09-2015, 07:19 PM

Almost two years ago, while very uneducated and very unaware i posted a thread about gender roles and stereotyping.
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?193291-Societal-Gender-roles-acceptance-and-femininity/

I think that i have grown as a person since then and look back on the way I worded the questions and I think I got a lot of good answers. I used to post quite frequently, took a break and now here I am again.

I have been thinking about some stuff lately. I have been primarily a lurker for the last couple months, but I have been watching and often find little to put my 2c in on the main forum. I have noticed ocassionaly a thread or two with some comments that are so blatantly sexist that I have chimed in. Mostly the amazing CDers who I met here two years ago when I joined, are also the ones to chime in and make some comments. here are some questions that have come to my mind over the last couple weeks. Sort of related. Sort of not. All spurred by conversations witnessed on the forum.

Here are my questions two years later:

1. Do you think the longer you identify as a cross-dresser, the more respect you gain for women?

2. Cross Dressers often get put in situations that GG's have been in their entire lives ( concern for safety, being out at night, feeling like something bad is going to happen to you because the way you dressed) Do you think that being a CDer allows you to better understand the fears society has placed on women for their entire lives?

3. Do you think that since you are a CDer that you perpetuate gender stereotypes due to the societal definition of "feminine" or are you helping to break the mold and push society in a more gender neutral direction?

Luca has discovered a new label he likes for himself besides CDer: we are looking into use "gender non conforming". We had a conversation about Luca putting himself in dangerous situations because he did not know any better. While I have ALWAYS walked to my car with my keys between my fingers, I have NEVER left a drink unattended, I ALWAYS bring a buddy EVERYWHERE. These are things that luca has never learned are a necessity. he was raised as a boy with the traditional male stereotypes hammered into his brain. SO he does not think about the danger and has gone out and done all these nonos!

OKAY. GO. :)

kimdl93

03-09-2015, 07:53 PM

Let me first acknowledge that the members here are, like society as a whole, representative of the cross section of society, and to the same degrees enlighten or not so much so on many issues. I find that some hold incredibly romanticized, idealized and often archaic views of 'women'

To your questions:

1. I don't think my respect for women has changed exclusively from decades of CDing. Certainly, I've gained a first. Hand appreciation of the unfairness of the sexualized notion of women and the potential toll of unrealistic body image and being judged solely by appearance. I also feel that being a coworker, subordinate and and supervisor with/of women, a mature adult, a marriage partner and parent, have also informed my perspectives on women.

2.very much so. If I do go out at night, I am always conscious of the risks, possible threats and strategies for avoiding dangerous situations. No one likes feeling vulnerable.

3. I feel that as an openly transgendered person (mostly) I'm helping in some small way to diminish gender stereotypes. I do attempt to present as a woman....as I conceive a woman of my age and stature would want to be seen, but I also recognize that some may view me as at best a poor caricature of femininity.

StephanieinSecret

03-09-2015, 08:14 PM

To answer in order:
1. I hope so, but I'll never know for sure. One of my fears is that my dressing will alienate me from other people.

2. No, not really. I don't go out, so fear of, say, being out at night isn't an issue. It does throw a new light on how the way we present ourselves can effect our reception in public, though. All the studying of fashion, movement, and body language that CD'ers do is a lesson in behavioral anthropology if you choose to see it that way.

3. One of many, MANY reasons that I don't go out is because I think CD'ers are a punch line to most people in the best case scenario. Getting laughed at doesn't make me feel good or give our community a good name.. And I'm not snappy with comebacks! That said, it reveals some inherent misogyny in our society: Women can take on masculine clothing and affectations because they show strength, wheras a man dressing as or emulating a woman is a joke or a weakling...why? Because feminity is associated with weakness and a lack of dominance. Sometimes I'm unsure if that's misogyny or simply reproductive biology at work, though.

Gretchen_To_Be

03-09-2015, 08:18 PM

Hi Greenie

1. As a CD I've had a feminine "inner being" forever and have gotten along well with women. I've always respected them, though my time in the macho military was challenging. I had to hide my true self and would engage in crude comments (never to women directly but about them when I was with the guys). I would cringe internally, however, thinking "if you only knew." From a practical standpoint, now that I am striving to look more like a woman from time to time, I greatly respect the amount of time and effort it takes to get ready and look good. And I haven't even started with makeup yet! And as ridiculous as this sounds, I'm beginning to get a glimpse of the pressure many women probably feel to look beautiful, and how they are judged on appearance. This forum has stirred in me feelings of envy or jealously, when I see the pretty, young, thin CDs who can wear a size 6 and apply makeup perfectly. I never felt that toward another guy. Well, maybe "car envy", but that's a possession, not one's own appearance. I think I'm beginning to understand how women could develop some serious esteem issues. Does that make any sense to you?

2. Yes, I think so. I've been contemplating this a great deal lately. I really want to lose weight--maybe I'll never fit into a size 6, but a 12 would be nice--and then it dawns on me that if I weighed 50 or 60 lbs less, I would also lose a lot of muscle, and would obviously be a lot less physically imposing. I would need to think twice about personal physical security. I'm torn about that, though part of me rationalizes that it is anyway inevitable as I get older. :)

3. I would definitely perpetuate some clothing stereotypes if I ever improved my femme presentation to go out in public. Hose, heels, dresses and skirts for me, definitely. My whole goal with CD is not to be gender neutral; I want to dress and look like Kate Hudson or Blake Lively.

Like Luca, I never thought about the things you mention in your last paragraph for myself, though I would always advise my girlfriends about them, and now my wife. I know there are creeps out there. It will be interesting to see how I deal with things if I ever do progress.

Though provoking post.

Shibumi

NicoleScott

03-09-2015, 08:20 PM

Good questions.
1) No. I have respect for women. I am a pleasure dresser. Once my dressup session ends, it's back to a normal male life, husband, father, handyman, sports fan, etc. There is no connection between my CDing and my respect for women.
2) No. I have always recognized the dangers and need for caution for both women (and girls) and CDers.
3) Leading question. There are different genders and the differences aren't just stereotypes, so I'm not a fan of gender neutral. But there's a lot to learn out there. For example, many people think gender is just a nicer word for sex. Recognizing and accepting people's differences in how they identify and express gender is preferable to pretending there are no gender differences. Like doing away with Mr. Mrs. Miss and using M. instead. Or doing away with different cap and gown colors because a few have identity issues. Both examples in the news lately.

docrobbysherry

03-09-2015, 08:29 PM

1. No. I don't respect people I don't know. It doesn't matter if you're male, female, somewhere in between, or a duck! U have to EARN my respect.

2. Absolutely! I learned a new kind of fear when dressed. And, vulnerability like never before! Also I have learned that being/presenting female GENERALLY requires more patience, acceptance, and open mindedness than being/presenting male.

3. NA. Almost no one dresses the way I do. I think someone has to be reminded of GG women by a dresser to effect a stereotype. I don't believe I do.

justmetoo

03-09-2015, 09:04 PM

I think I've always had respect for some women (from my grandmothers to my mother to my sisters and to many other women I have known over the years), but crossdressing and especially going out in public has opened my eyes to the kinds of dangers and harassment and unwanted attention women can often be subject to and that most men don't have to face. Also, after opening up to some of the women in my life about my crossdressing they have also opened up to me about aspects of their lives that they don't often talk about with most men (from things like sexual assault to being pressured to be nice to being put down or belittled in various ways). I hope I don't perpetuate gender stereotypes! But I probably do to some extent. It's hard to overcome decades of societal programming and I'm sure I don't even see all of the ways I might adhere to gender stereotypes without even knowing it. I hope I do my best though.

Suzie Petersen

03-09-2015, 09:38 PM

Hi Greenie,

Thanks for the questions, they are good ones!

My replies:

1) No. However, I have been transgender since I was very young and probably before, or at least at the same time, I became aware of girls. So my perception of women has always been as equals.
I will say that the older I get, the less I think of either gender! People generally suck! <LOL>

2) Yes I do believe I have a better understanding of womens safety concerns. Having been in the situations where I did not feel safe or where I knew my safety was dependent on chance or the good behavior of others around me, has certainly made me more aware of what women face every day.

3) I am not sure. I hope I am pushing those around me in the right direction, but there is a counterproductive function of me protecting my "secret" which sometimes might make me root for the boy team instead of standing up for women and for my gender non-conforming nature! I would never actively speak or act against womens rights, but I know I have at times avoided getting involved out of concern of being "outed" by my actions. Hope that makes sense!

- Suzie

Greenie

03-09-2015, 10:32 PM

Interesting answers. The last question is kind of leading. But I presume different answers from different thinkers. If that makes sense. I think there are cder that further perpetuate stereotypes often on this site, and others that are aware and actively reject stereotypes of women. I guess I ask this because I am wondering if people have knowledge of this trend in our own cd.Com community and where each person thinks they fall. it's meant to turn the questions around and get each person to think about where on that they might fit. My personal opinion is that there are many here who fit either side. But often I think it's the difference between newer cder and those who have been at it or on here for a while. That is my perception of the posts I have read. More tenured cder seem to just like what they like regardless of stereotype, where often newer cds perpetuate the sterotype and "only" like stereotypically female things. One of my favorite disussion is the male vs female razors. Which is strange to me, companies make the same product blue or pink and sell as male and female to double profit. As a society we become slaves to the gender bias machine. women as well as cders often seem to buy into this "women's versus mens" products, when scientifically they are often the same product in different colors. But the need to have the more feminine product always amazes me. the Lego company was cited as increasing their profits by 300% the year they started selling "girls legos" when in actuality they are the same base product.

AngelaYVR

03-09-2015, 11:43 PM

1. No
2. Maybe, but having a daughter does it more
3. ??? I dress as I like, do real women not wear skirts and dresses for fear of being accused of setting back 'the cause'?

Greenie

03-09-2015, 11:51 PM

ReineD

03-10-2015, 12:50 AM

I went to the older post you linked to in the OP. You were asking if CDers promoted the gender divide by portraying women in a stereotypical sexual manner, based on photographs you had seen on facebook. I too have seen many such photos, as does the general public, and I think this is why most (or many?) people not involved in this community believe that CDers do dress for fetish or sexual reasons.

But I believe that CDers generally seek to emulate that which they find beautiful and sexy, without even thinking about whether they are portraying the sexist stereotypes. Men are naturally hardwired to look at and admire beautiful and sexy women ... how many of them do NOT turn their heads when they see a provocatively dressed woman sashaying down the street. Their aim is to become what they find beautiful, it's a visual thing, and there is nothing more beautiful and that suits every taste than the variety of women who look like this: (see google image search for "classy women" and scroll down a bit (https://www.google.com/search?q=classy+sexy+women&es_sm=91&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=aHr-VJHOAoergwTN9oOYDg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=990&bih=586#tbm=isch&q=classy+women)).

There's a huge industry that uses these images to sell all manner of things to men from cars, boats, sports, expensive watches and it is done because it works. I don't know if most CDers , or even non-CDers, realize that most women don't dress and look like that in their day-to-day lives, I think they just are very pleased with the way that women are marketed because it appeals to their hard-wiring.

I think there are cder that further perpetuate stereotypes often on this site, and others that are aware and actively reject stereotypes of women.

My personal opinion is that there are many here who fit either side. But often I think it's the difference between newer cder and those who have been at it or on here for a while.

I agree with you on both counts, and I think that the degree to which a CDer might present as a "hot babe" has to do with several factors:

1. His age … I think it's safe to say that generally libido starts to wane around middle age and this might be when the style of dress might also tone down.
2. Whether he goes out in public … there's no need to tone down at home or for pics intended for other CDers, no matter what age. My own SO will only wear the short, tight dresses to her TG support group where there is no reason not to.
3. How much he wants to not be stared at in public if he goes out … I think that CDers who go out do learn to tone it down if they want to blend in.

Keeping in mind, that men have different opinions on what is considered attractive, sexy, or hot, based on their backgrounds and the decades of their youth: anything from long, flowery, gauzy dresses to fuzzy and cuddly sweaters, to period-type costumes, to tight jeans, to short skirts, to sweater dresses, to classic office wear, and everything in between.

But I do agree that there tends to be more dresses, skirts and hose here than among women. I always took it this is because many CDers think that their legs are one of their best natural features.

One of my favorite disussion is the male vs female razors. Which is strange to me, companies make the same product blue or pink and sell as male and female to double profit.
I agree with you there too. I will buy the one on sale, no matter the color or the brand. But, I think that a lot of CDers get a special kick out of using traditional feminine products, like pink bath towels, women's shampoo, razors, etc, even down to which "girly" drink to order at a bar. CDing is so much more than the clothes, it's the whole idea of crossing the line of what is socially acceptable for men, and products marketed to women help to achieve this.

bridget thronton

03-10-2015, 12:54 AM

1. Yes - i see the tough lot girls face growing up and the lack of respect given to women in many workplaces
2. Yes - i appreciate women's safety concerns better
3. I am not trying to perpetuate any stereotypes (I do not judge anyone's femininity) I just try to be myself

AngelaYVR

03-10-2015, 01:47 AM

Angela, it doesn't have to do with wearing skirts, but the attitude towards "feminine" in general. Not the action of wearing skirts, but refusing to wear pants. Women don't refuse to wear jeans because they are not feminine enough. Or refuse to wear flats.

Guilty as charged but not because there are not feminine jeans but simply because they make a huge proportion of what modern women wear. I love to see skirts, dresses and heels so that is what I wear - no stereotyping involved.

I think you might have missed my point, Did you read the last post before you responded? That might clear it up a bit. No need to get offended! Intelligent discussions are encouraged!!!

I read what you wrote but, with all due respect, the intent seemed muddled. I was also not offended, it would take much more than that, I was merely perplexed. Now that you have clarified your original question (in a slightly insulting way with many exclamation marks) I can only suggest that you consider the reasons for choosing certain styles are irrelevant, we do this to make ourselves happy.

Lorileah

03-10-2015, 02:00 AM

Answering from the rearview mirror of when I was a CD (yeah, hard to believe huh?)

1. Do you think the longer you identify as a cross-dresser, the more respect you gain for women?

I have to say "no". That respect hit hard and fast early on. I learned quickly about the drop in status and the way men assume things about women. It hasn't grown as far as respect. I had that very quickly (yes it opened my eyes though)

2. Cross Dressers often get put in situations that GG's have been in their entire lives ( concern for safety, being out at night, feeling like something bad is going to happen to you because the way you dressed) Do you think that being a CDer allows you to better understand the fears society has placed on women for their entire lives? Yes it did. But that understanding came more from being out in public. I wonder if the CDs who don't go out get that

3. Do you think that since you are a CDer that you perpetuate gender stereotypes due to the societal definition of "feminine" or are you helping to break the mold and push society in a more gender neutral direction? I am taking the 5th on that one as I think I have made that point on several occasions. But that perspective IS from a female point of view. Oh yeah, I used to dress the way I wanted GGs to dress...:)

pamela7

03-10-2015, 02:56 AM

1. respect was never an issue for me, in fact I've generally looked up to them more than men. What I do, is feel more understanding of women's situation from the clothing - the need for care moving, attention to detail, heightened awareness of situations, the vulnerability of less solid footwear and clothing, the prey feeling experienced under the eyes of some men, the dominance issues of some men come out.

2. maybe the fear is accentuated due to cross-dresser hate, I'm inclined to be the man-in-a-dress, which I feel appears less vulnerable but is more challenging to society. Being out in cities alone at night, I've felt just as heightened an awareness, just as likely to be mugged, what has changed is that I am more open to feeling the fear of others. As I never understood the males who would attack others anyway I am as perplexed as ever.

3. I believe that my man-in-a-dress approach, and my mixed-clothing likes are at the face of breaking down clothing stereotypes - yesterday i cleaned out some plumbing mostly en-femme; my work was tidier and more careful.

thank you for the questions Greenie.

PaulaQ

03-10-2015, 03:02 AM

think that since you are a CDer that you perpetuate gender stereotypes due to the societal definition of "feminine" or are you helping to break the mold and push society in a more gender neutral direction?

Why do you think that pushing society to a more gender neutral direction would be a good thing at all. Sure, overly rigid roles for women (and men) have been a problem. But I don't think that "androgynous" presentations are all that. In my own case, I am very, very certain that if men and women in society wore the exact same garments, hairstyles, etc. I'd have blown my brains out many months before the slow process that is HRT changed my face and body enough to make me not want to die everytime I looked in a mirror.

I present in a stereotypically feminine manner because I'm just that type of woman, and my need to be who I am feels like an irresistible physical need, like the need for air. I'm not saying that every woman needs to be this way - I think people need freedom to be who they really are, without judgement. But I think it's ridiculous to replace one overly rigid social template with another overly rigid social template.

There is nothing wrong with a highly traditionally feminine presentation, provided it's not the cruel one size fits all uniform for every woman.

I'd invite people who disagree with me, and view me as a sell-out, a prostitute, or even as a grotesque parody of womanhood to please PM me, and I'd be more than happy to discuss this. (I've heard all of those comparisons, btw.)

Marcelle

03-10-2015, 06:12 AM

Hi Greenie (nice to see you back BTW). In response to your question:

1. I am going to play a bit of semantics here with this question. Respect is something you earn IMHO and is not given cart blanche but I don't believe you meant it in that way. I am going to assume you meant more an "understanding of what women go through in this world of ours". I was raised in a predominately female home so my interactions right down to cousins were all women/girls (with the exception of two wonderful uncles who schooled me in all things boy). So I understood women from a young age and respected those around me as much as a young adolescent can. It did socialize me so when I grew up I did not see women any different then men and would be the first to call someone to task for making sexist remarks. Has being TG made me more understanding/respectful? I believe it has accentuated something already exists in general terms. However, when I meet a woman for the first time (boy or girl me) they still need to stand on their own merits for true respect. A D-Bag is a D-Bag irrespective of gender.

2. In a way I have always been a bit hypervigilant when it comes to safety as I was a smallish child and adolescent so I got picked on/bullied quite often. When I grew up, it kind of stuck and my training in the military only increased this sense of "situational awareness". Now dressing "en femme" definitely presents it own set of safety concerns so yes, I think I am more hypervigilant when dressed. However, the recent attack against me only accentuated this concern. Do I understand the safety concerns of women better? Perhaps, but I think my understanding stems for a generalize concern for safety regardless of your gender . . . we can all be victims.

3. I don't believe I do. My wife laughs when I choose outfits which though are definitely girl they are flavoured by my pragmatic "guy self" in that I prefer jeans, tops and boots to dresses/skirts and heels. Don't get me wrong I would wear a dress if the occasion called for it but my daily interactions are mainly what I see other GGs my age wearing.

Hugs

Isha

NicoleScott

03-10-2015, 07:36 AM

Greenie, I don't get the razor issue. If companies see a market out there, they will supply products to that market, and sink or swim will happen. If a woman or CDer thinks/feels a pink razor is more feminine, that's OK. Reine isn't fooled, and that's OK. There is a practical reason, though, as many couples don't want their mate to use their razors, so pink and blue works. If she pays double, too bad, be a smarter shopper, like Reine.
Over the decades there have been complaints that certain segments of society are being ignored: hair and makeup products for women of color, hunting clothing cut for womens' bodies, pretty/sexy plus size clothes. If there is a demand, and money to be made, there will be someone to step in and provide what is wanted.
I wonder, and find the thought amusing, if some CDers use a pink razor for their legs and a blue one for their face (leg shaving a feminine act, face shaving a masculine act).
I agree with Isha - nice to see you back.

sometimes_miss

03-10-2015, 08:06 AM

Greenie

03-10-2015, 08:14 AM

Paula: I don't want to be "gender neutral to the extreme" however I do think a shift to a more gender neutral world would be politically better. As long as in other countries men still feel like they own women, and even in the US where women make substantially less than men. There is an idea that women are worth less than men that consistently follows our society. I say that people can wear whatever they want, But often times there is still an archaic view of women on this forum. Which amazes me. Its sickening to think that there are people on here who during the day want their wives to follow all the gneder stereotypes and will criticize or critique their femininity. Obviously you do not fit into that mold.

Nicole: I think fundamentally you and I probably have a different view in politics and world views where you might not understand the Razor/ Lego dilemma. And thats cool. I love you regardless of if you and I see eye to eye on this. Where I am coming from is that I don't like living in a world where my kids will have different opportunities, be treated differently, be forced to play with different toys in school or be teased. The razors and legos to me show that the world has not progressed pass gender stereotyping, and that commercialism feeds into that. I don't like that instead of being a more socially minded society, we are profit based. I understand that is the nature of the beast, and of capitalism. But if I have a child who ends up being a CD, I don't want to mess with their brains for the first half of their life shoving MALE IDENTITY down their throat in every day items. But it seems no matter what as a parent I will need to chose items that are pink or blue, princess or army. There is not a bunch of the between.

And lastly:

Angela: You cannot gather intent from text! Remember our own biases that go into reading text. :) you say insulting which is what I was trying to avoid. On a board of 200,000 plus members, I cannot avoid insulting everyone. So alas, I try and fail with at least one ;) thats why the exclamations. *Shrug* While you view as insulting, someone else who knows me might see it as me trying to explain. I am not here to attack anyone or be attacked back. So please do not respond in an attacking accusatory manner again, however muddled, the point of this community it to have conversations. If you don't like what I am asking, then don't participate, if you think I am rude, its very easy to block me as a member and not see anything I post. Pointing out how "muddled" my thought is won't change anything, because my intent on asking the questions will metamorphosis as the tread continues. I.e. Muddle. Participate

I do not see the need to choose a skirt irrelevant. You are assuming you know me, my history, and my personality. I see new CDers in the pink fog who come on here and have a bias about what "real women should be like" Cders who think they are "more femine and better than "real" GGs" As a "real" gg, its insulting to females as a whole the points that are often made on this forum. And I mean often.

If you could look at the intent which is a GG starting an intelligent conversation with her cd friends you would understand. Not every GG is trying to to kick people down, or control your clothing choices. I said these questions all came from conversations I saw on the board in the last couple weeks. So they all got started with stuff I saw cder's post. SO if that CDer is NOT you, good for you. But I have seen these posts, and seen these conversations MANY MANY times in the last 2 years since joining the board. You might be better than that then. If you don't stereotype, good for you. if you don't reject women wearing pants because its not feminine enough, then you are not the type of person I was talking about. I said some CDers (knowledge I have through experience!) . I didn't generalize, and recognized that there were different sides of camp on this issue. If you took offense to think I was talking about you in particular, or CDers like you, there must be a reason that you thought that.

This is the last time I will try to explain. I have plenty of people here who love me, know me, and understand that I am inquisitive GG who likes to ask thought provoking questions. A couple people not liking me and trying to start forum fights is not my biggest concern.

Tina_gm

03-10-2015, 08:49 AM

1. Do you think the longer you identify as a cross-dresser, the more respect you gain for women?

2. Cross Dressers often get put in situations that GG's have been in their entire lives ( concern for safety, being out at night, feeling like something bad is going to happen to you because the way you dressed) Do you think that being a CDer allows you to better understand the fears society has placed on women for their entire lives?

3. Do you think that since you are a CDer that you perpetuate gender stereotypes due to the societal definition of "feminine" or are you helping to break the mold and push society in a more gender neutral direction?

My respect for women I believe has remained basically the same. I am one who even growing up in the 70's and 80's has always had a gender neutral respect for anyone. I do believe though that with CDing, I admire women more and some of the things they have and do go through. I am a little more aware of certain things, both good and the more difficult things women go through.

Question #2 does not apply to me as I do not go out in public. However, I believe I would likely make the same mistake Luca does, or did. I likely wouldn't think about those things.

It was a little over 2 years ago that I began to open myself up and accept myself and began active CDing. In the beginning, yes, I was very much into this is feminine/masculine. It tended to cause me more emotional distress as I stressed about just about anything I was doing. I am learning to discard much of this. At times I am sure I still do this, but it is becoming less of an issue for me. I am more keenly aware of even cis gender people of both genders who do things which are construed as feminine/masculine. I have witnessed since becoming more aware of things in general some of the most masculine guys having some hobbies or likes, or not likes that are in traditional senses of gender stereotypes. It does not make them any more or any less a man or woman, as I now see it.

I do believe now more than ever it is not so much what a person actually does which makes them masculine or feminine. What I have seen or observed is that a masculine or feminine person, regardless of birth gender is in how they process. Also in a lot of cases how they respond to what they process. Putting on a tool belt or an apron does not make a person one way or another. femininity and masculinity is more innate. It is more internal. I believe that many who CD act "so girly" because #1, we likely do not dress or act in feminine ways as much as we would like to, so there is in a sense a build up of it. #2, for a CDer who still identifies as male, either because of the visual or sexual thrill, the dressing and actions are of the most feminine type. Also, because it is a special occasion, sort of. When women go out to a special occasion, they want to look their best. They want to look sexy, or at least to fit in. They won't get a sexual thrill from it, but I believe they do get a sense of affirmation of looking good, and enjoying the sensual feminine beings they are. pink sweats and slippers doing household chores, eh, not so fun. High heels and a nice dress/skirt while dancing, a lot more fun....

ophelia

03-10-2015, 08:56 AM

Business is what drives style and fashion in everything. How much economic growth do you think would come from producing beautiful, functional and classic styles, well made with textiles and colours which would last literally decades?
It is the business community which dictates male and female style trends for their own benefit.
They tell us what a man wears and what a woman wears and stock the stores with those limited choices.
Consider this: I have a friend who is a very successful painter. Other artists have called him "mercantile". This spring, in places like London and Paris there are conventions which decide on what the "hot" colours will be four and five years from now. His paintings are planned to fit in with those arbitrary choices.

Tina_gm

03-10-2015, 08:59 AM

I present in a stereotypically feminine manner because I'm just that type of woman, and my need to be who I am feels like an irresistible physical need, like the need for air. I'm not saying that every woman needs to be this way - I think people need freedom to be who they really are, without judgement. But I think it's ridiculous to replace one overly rigid social template with another overly rigid social template.

There is nothing wrong with a highly traditionally feminine presentation, provided it's not the cruel one size fits all uniform for every woman.

Even if the physical presentation of men and women were to be exactly the same, we all wore the same clothes, makeup or lack thereof, I believe that a persons individual masculinity or femininity will still find a way out. We might look exactly the same, but we won't act the same, and we would migrate to certain types of professions and hobbies.

Greenie

03-10-2015, 09:05 AM

Ophelia:

That sucks. I think society helps to put us in little boxes. It sucks when I go shopping with Luca and nothing that he likes really looks good because it doesn't hang right on his frame. The market has decided what to produce, and that is what is made. Sucky that the market produces clothes that women like me (Curvy as hell) cannot wear either.

Gendermutt:

I always love when you comment on my posts. :) I have become a really big fan of the HeforShe campaign which is a campaign for gender equality, and it promotes that true equality will not happen unless men are involved. I find that many of the Cder I meet here are the type of men who will help further the cause of gender equality, due to their nature. So many here are so kind hearted and really see the place for equality. We used to have a member who was banned, but they used to talk about how they were more feminine than their wife, and all the gender roles that she needed to fill. Because he worked and provided for the house, and that god sees her as the submissive. Yet he would come home and emulate they exact thing he spoke with such disdain about. Its that kind of extremism from this community that baffles me. Luckily most of you are not like that. And definitely not the ones who take the time to discuss gender stereotypes, equality, etc. ;)

Laura912

03-10-2015, 09:32 AM

The thing that drove me to cross dressing may be the same that has always caused me to respect and support women. It is also what led to a career in providing their health care, fighting for their issues, and perhaps understanding better than other males in the same career, some of the special forces with which women had to cope.

AngelaYVR

03-10-2015, 10:10 AM

Greenie: it is disingenuous to say you want intelligent discussion and then freak out when someone disagrees with you.

Stephanie47

03-10-2015, 10:59 AM

1. Respect for women. This was never an issue for me. I saw how my grandparents and parents interacted. Both my grandmother and mother did not regularly work outside the home. Financially, there was no need for them to work outside the home. Back in the 1950's and 1960's a middle class family was supported with one paycheck. Yes, there were societal roadblocks imposed on women from an early age. Those road blocks were wrong. However, those roadblocks did not have any impact on how my family interacted. There was no emotional or physical abuse in the family. Being a cross dresser should have absolutely no bearing on respect you should have for women or anyone else.

2. Societal fears. Well, I'm sure there is a mixed bag of reactions experienced by cross dressers. My wife was livid at the cat calls she received by construction workers in Manhattan and tore into them. She had no fear telling off the oafs. I've seen some really attractive young cross dressers on this site and others. I'm sure they have gotten cat calls, whistles, etc. I have received some horn honking and cat calls from passing guys when I was younger. It was a mixed feeling. On the one hand I welcomed the acknowledgement I was attractive (at least from afar). On the other hand I feared the guy really trying to pick me up. I know many young women like the attention received from guys, and, also fear the slobs. It's a mixed bag.

If you're a cross dresser who does NOT pass and your true gender is readily discernible, then I'd say you're probably going to experience the hatred many people have for gays and lesbians, blacks and Latinos, and, any other person not like them. Over the years I've encountered so many sick individuals who dislike or hate people for no reason other than they are not like themselves. Heck, I've seen women/girls dislike pretty/attractive women because they are "plain Janes" or women who dislike overweight women and do not want to be seen with them.

3. Society does not need to become gender neutral if you are talking about presentation of the differences between the sexes. Sexual attraction should not have any bearing on how one perceives the person. I like feminine women. I like a woman who dresses well. Although my perception of femininity revolves around dresses, I see many attractive women wearing pants/jeans and tops. There is a difference in most people's minds between the feminine gender and femininity. When I was still working in a professional office there were many women. Some thought professional attire when greeting and working with attorneys and certified public accountants and business persons included wearing sweatsuits, capri pants and flip flops. Their gender may have been female, but, they were not in the least feminine. And, the same may be said of males. In my mind gender identity has nothing to do with femininity or masculinity.

audreyinalbany

03-10-2015, 11:22 AM

Personally, I just glad to see you back in the discussion group Greenie! We've missed you.

PaulaQ

03-10-2015, 11:31 AM

I don't want to be "gender neutral to the extreme" however I do think a shift to a more gender neutral world would be politically better. As long as in other countries men still feel like they own women, and even in the US where women make substantially less than men. There is an idea that women are worth less than men that consistently follows our society. I say that people can wear whatever they want, But often times there is still an archaic view of women on this forum. Which amazes me. Its sickening to think that there are people on here who during the day want their wives to follow all the gneder stereotypes and will criticize or critique their femininity. Obviously you do not fit into that mold.

Look, no one with any sense wants to live in a place like these:
5 countries with fashion police (http://gadling.com/2011/04/13/strictest-dress-codes-5-countries-with-fashion-police/)

But I reject the notion that giving women the ability to wear pants somehow fixed all the other social inequalities women face. In general, a big part of 70's feminism here in the US (other than denying the validity of trans women) was the idea of making women equal by making them more like men. There are certainly many areas of society that should largely be blind too gender - job opportunities, pay, political office, access to education and health care, many, many situations where women still, to this day, are routinely discriminated against world wide.

But here's a newsflash - gaining the freedom to wear pants and lose makeup (both ok in my book), did not fix women's issues. Men still want to own us, and do everything they can to control our bodies. Don't believe me? Try being young and getting your tubes tied - the doctor will do everything he can to convince you that you will one day change your mind. And he probably won't perform the procedure for you either. For that matter, try convincing one you need a vagina. "Oh but wait, that's totally different, maybe you aren't a real woman and will change your mind..." I didn't mention abortion, but the restrictions against it are another very clear example of men feeling like they own our bodies. For that matter, the difficulty young women sometimes have of obtaining reliable contraception is another.

But no, instead of work place equality and control over our own biology, we got superficial crap like the ability to wear men's clothes. Yay progress. Meanwhile, women like me who happen to dress more traditionally are assumed to be like this bitch. (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phyllis_Schlafly)

Just freaking awesome.

Actually, I'm sorry, I forget myself. I'm so sorry, I meant no offense to all of the cisgender women out there.

I forgot my place. I'm not a traitor or a sell-out. I can't be, because I'm not a real woman, I'm a trans woman. So I'm an artificially constructed nazi science fair project designed either for men's pleasure, or to destroy feminism from within. Just ask: Janice Raymond (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Transsexual_Empire), or her contemporary minions, the TERFs (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Trans-exclusionary_radical_feminism).

Even if the physical presentation of men and women were to be exactly the same, we all wore the same clothes, makeup or lack thereof, I believe that a persons individual masculinity or femininity will still find a way out.

Having lived on both sides of the aisle, all I can tell you is that if I hadn't had a very visual way to express my femininity, I'd have killed myself long before the physical changes from HRT altered my body. This didn't feel like some conditioned psychosocial thing. It didn't go away with talk therapy - believe you me. It wasn't influenced at all by antidepressants. What did make a difference was changing my appearance through clothing and makeup, gaining some hormonal congruence through HRT, and ultimately the changes to my body. (We still have a ways to go on that front.)

I've heard this argument before, and I just reject it. I know not everyone feels this way, but there are decided differences physically between men and women, and some of us feel a very powerful need to express those differences.

Indeed, if you were to point a pistol at me, and tell me "Look Paula, I'm going to do you a favor and prove to you that this is all in your head. Put on that suit and you'll see, it's no big deal." I'd tell you to just pull the trigger. I'd want you to pull the trigger if that was my only other choice. I will die before I deny who I am ever again.

Vala

03-10-2015, 11:49 AM

1. No. Respect is earned no matter someone's gender.

2. No. You don't have to be a women or crosdresser to get a fair share of fear for daily life.

3. No. Not because I started crossdressing. I have always been a fan of not labeling anyone. No matters ones gender. And when a discussion takes place forcing something to be feminine or masculine I will always disagree.

Beverley Sims

03-10-2015, 11:57 AM

The first two questions "no".

The third, er, yes.

Luca reminds me of a caged bird let out into the wild.

The bird is unaware of traffic on the road or the dangers of birds of prey that abound.

Luca, also aware of what he has been told needs to experience danger to be able to be practiced in handling it.

I learned how to interact with obstinate males by going out with my girlfriends when I was twenty.

It's not just saying F/O hairy legs, but how you say it. :)

LilSissyStevie

03-10-2015, 01:16 PM

1. I don't really identify as a crossdresser, it's just something I do. I spend very little time crossdressed TBH. I try to respect people as individuals rather than for their group membership.

2. I don't take my show on the road. When I go out, I'm the scary one.

3. I don't dress to emulate women. I dress to obliterate any vestige of masculinity. Gender neutral doesn't do it for me. Besides, didn't they already do that in Mao's China? How'd that work out? Rather than moving society towards some ideal of gender neutral, I would decouple gender from physical sex. Let's have more masculine women and feminine men (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSlfQ49Bq1s) instead.

Greenie

03-10-2015, 01:46 PM

Stevie: that is a wonderful goal. If I have a feminine son or a masculine daughter, I want them to live in a world where there are no stereotypes that identify them as "fag or dyke". I just know it won't be that way by the time I have kids.

Also thank you everyone who is actually participating in the conversation. Right or wrong we are all hear to learn from one another. I ask for your opinions because they are different from mine, which is so Fricken Awesome. Please ignore any negativity in the thread that has strayed from the main purpose of discussion. And let's keep pushing each others brains to chew on things in a new way we might not have thought a out before.

♡

Katey888

03-10-2015, 04:09 PM

Interesting dialogue so far Greenie... we have certainly been missing the ripples from a carefully tossed pebble or question or three... ;) So it's nice to have you back and giving us another perspective again...

1. Do you think the longer you identify as a cross-dresser, the more respect you gain for women?
I'm treating the word 'respect' as being more about 'understanding' - and I also have difficulty thinking that I identify as a CDer given that my CD time is such a small fraction of being 'me'. In truth, I still identify more with guy me, but in this context obviously I am a CDer. :) I think I have developed more understanding about some of the more surface aspects and practicalities of women, but much greater depth of understanding and respect has only ever come through relationships with women - either intimate or just friendships and acquaintances. I don't believe that dressing modifies respect or understanding much compared with actually engaging with someone.

2... Do you think that being a CDer allows you to better understand the fears society has placed on women for their entire lives?
A little bit - having now been out a couple of times, I can get the thing about vulnerability and how others - particularly men - and their attention can often be perceived as threatening or at least unwarranted. But I've experienced bad situations as a guy too, where alcohol infused imbeciles have just been looking to argue with anyone - I think when out I'm still more aware of issues that may occur around being identified as a CDer or trans* rather than understanding how a woman feels - I think that's too much of a stretch for CDers and you need really to be a TS or full-timer to appreciate that.

3. Do you think that since you are a CDer that you perpetuate gender stereotypes due to the societal definition of "feminine" or are you helping to break the mold and push society in a more gender neutral direction?

This question has received some varied interpretations... but I think has some issues... The first one is that CDers could have any impact on gender stereotypes in society given how low-profile most of us are, either positively or negatively. There are certainly some amongst us who pursue a more gender non-conforming or androgynous look - again, I just think there are so few around it makes little difference to the masses. I do think there are some bizarre ideas around as to what femininity is or means - or whether it really means anything at all. Personally, I think it is both a societal and cultural abstract. The cultural part is important too, because I'm sure I've seen significant perception differences between the US and UK here, and even regionally within the US, and I think that's attributable to culture. Without getting in too deep here, we're just too few to be breaking any molds as such for broader society. CDers, as a whole, are just too few and too irrelevant to have much of an impact on society AT ALL. There... I said it. :hiding: (Let me put a rider in to say that doesn't mean I don't think some of our issues are relevant, particularly at the TS end of things, just that we don't represent a relevant enough mass for society to care much...)

Thought provoking Greenie - do keep prodding us (at least Luca then gets some down time... :lol:)

Katey x

Alice Torn

03-10-2015, 04:53 PM

Dressing for years occasionally, has not seem to have changed my respect for some women, but has increased my appreciation for respectable women, Same goes for men. Yes, i feel the fear women must feel, when out dressed up classy, and alone. I admire their great guts! To go out everyday, in the city, or country, alone! As far as gender neutral NO. I love 'viva la difference'. I find society boring if it gets too gender neutral. I agree with Sometimes Miss, too.

Dana44

03-10-2015, 06:49 PM

Wow, one of my problems as a male was too much respect for women. Got my bell rung a couple times. I think that CD'ing is truly a way for us to identity with our feminine side. Respect, is something learned. I found that I now judge a woman on their own personalities and interactions. I would not do a girly drink at a bar. Also, I buy the products for women, yet on a razor, I did by one and it has broken. The male razors seem to be more stout. On going out, you are making the best statement that one can and that is to pass as a woman. My first time out, I think that I did not pass... Wild hair, tried to flat iron it. I have thick hair and it had a lot of volume.:o I probably looked like a wild six foot four female. I was dressed for my age. That is the only thing that might have saved me. LOL, I did not get that many looks. They probably thought it was some old kook. I feel that most here in Texas, kindly looks away. We have to buy a lot of female products on the fact that they do not make them for males. Yet I'm getting used to things like perfume. I wonder if they have one in musk, LOL

Tina_gm

03-10-2015, 06:57 PM

To Greenie, your welcome. I love threads like these. they make us all think. Think about ourselves, think about others and all of our various roles in life, regardless of our birth gender. I will say this- and not that I am agreeing with this, or excusing this- That many CDers, TG whatever get wrapped up into gender stereotypes and focus more intently on it, to the point that on some occasions it can become harshly hypocritical because we who are in the TG spectrum experience life differently than either cis genders. We are sometimes in a type of gender purgatory. We relate to and connect to women on some levels, but unless we are fully TS then only on some levels. Likewise of our own birth gender, we connect on some levels, but not as much as cis gendered men. It is easy to become hyper focused on any type of gender stereotype. I experienced a bit of this myself early on in the 1st few months of my letting go and the beginning journey of my own acceptance. And it can be a dark place. It does take some effort to let that place go too, at least for me it did. But thankfully, I am now one who is far less judgemental of myself and others, and through observation has seen that most cis gendered people at some level will cross a line at which is stereotyped for the opposite gender. And I fully agree with you that I wish for a society that is equal in all opportunities for both men and women... regardless of our birth gender, and for those of us who fall somewhere in between.

Paula Q- I do not disagree with you. Our physical presentation is as important of our identity as any. What I was implying is that without such physical differences, those who are masculine and those who are feminine will still have ways of expression, by physical actions and by activities of employment and self fulfillment. There are more reasons that men would rather wear a tool belt than an apron than just society expectations. There are reasons why men took on the roles they did and vice versa. There is societal norms yes, and they do influence behavior to a good extent. Remove all of that and those who are masculine and those who are feminine will still migrate to different places generally. That was what I really was getting at.

Michelle789

03-10-2015, 07:48 PM

On the other hand, it's women who insist that I continue the macho masculine role because they cannot accept, and are not attracted to, a feminine male.

Men and women are both responsible for perpetuating male masculinity and machismo. Most men are afraid of losing their masculinity or expressing feminine, and are afraid of being around any man who expressing any behaviors or expressions of the feminine.

Why do you think that pushing society to a more gender neutral direction would be a good thing at all. Sure, overly rigid roles for women (and men) have been a problem....
I'd invite people who disagree with me, and view me as a sell-out, a prostitute, or even as a grotesque parody of womanhood to please PM me, and I'd be more than happy to discuss this. (I've heard all of those comparisons, btw.)

Very well said Paula. I agree with your sentiments exactly.

Btw, I have had a number of people within the trans community criticize me for my stereotypical feminine way of dressing. I have been told things like "Are you going to wear 'normal' clothes to the meeting next time?" and that I dress "age inappropriately" and that I need new clothes. All from within the trans community. This came from people who feel that I am some kind of sellout by reinforcing feminine stereotypes. I simply enjoy dressing in a stereotypically feminine manner, and this reflects the feminine woman that I am. I am not trying to force other women, trans or cis, to dress as I do.

When I first started publicly presenting last year, I had wrestled with the issue on how I should dress. I was into the whole debate on "dress to blend" vs "dress feminine" vs "be yourself". I knew I wanted to dress as my authentic self, which is a feminine woman who wears skirts, dresses, long hair, and makeup. Yet I had read on this forum, along with articles I had read before I joined the forum, and I had also heard from within the local trans community, that I should dress to blend in, which means mainly jeans, t-shirts, flip flops, sneakers. While I don't dress like a hooker, no 6 inch heels or skirts that are too short, I do dress in a very stereotypically feminine manner. I had to apologize to myself for the longest time that I was commiting the most mortal sin of being a TS, dressing too femininely and that people would take me for a crossdresser (if even that since many CDers choose to wear casual clothing). It took lots of therapy and publicly presenting to get over myself and to realize that it's okay to be a transwoman and to be able to express my femininity in a way that reflects who I really am, and in a way that makes me happy. That I am not a "man in a dress" and I am not a crossdresser.

I agree that forcing everyone to dress in a gender neutral way is simply forcing us from one box into another. No one belongs in boxes. Everyone should be free to express themselves as they wish.

Greenie

03-10-2015, 08:25 PM

Tina_gm

03-10-2015, 08:25 PM

1. I've both gained, and lost respect for women as I learned more about how their lives are different from ours. It really depends upon the situation. In some ways women are nicer than men, in other ways, they're meaner. It all goes to show that rather than exact equality, we're equally different.
2. I grew up as one of the youngest kids in my neighborhood, bullied and tormented by many. I learned very early that I could never compete physically, so I had to learn ways around the dangers that presented themselves to me. As I got older, I realized that women were often in the same situation as I had been in all my life. On the other hand, I also learned that women say one thing, and mean another; a great many say they want true equality, but also want to retain the social advantages that they currently have, all while demanding more from men at the same time.

3. I don't perpetuate the gender stereotypes, because I don't interact with the world as a female. On the other hand, it's women who insist that I continue the macho masculine role because they cannot accept, and are not attracted to, a feminine male.

The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. Men also say things and mean other things, but different than women, sometimes. Equal but different is still equal.

nicer in some ways and meaner in others is a wash. women "insist" on gender stereotypes but no more than men do, or society in general does. There is though the occasional woman who actual prefers a more feminine man and is still not a lesbian. Few and far between perhaps, but it does exist and vice versa. For all those other women, eh, who can blame them simply for being hetero. Cross dressers may be a little more understanding of a woman who wants short hair, grows her leg hair and other body hair, wears mens cologne, doesn't wear makeup and participates in more male dominated activities????? many men will befriend such a woman, but how many will be picking such a woman to want them 1st to be a sexual partner or a potential wife/mother?

My wife does not prefer my long nails or shaved body, she deals with it because it makes me happier. many women cannot get past this, but there are some who can. It doesn't make them better, it just makes them different, just as we are.

PaulaQ

03-11-2015, 06:25 AM

Somewhere along the lines, my idea of SOCIALLY gender nuetrul got turned into forcing everyone into the same clothes!!!

That not what I meant! Lol. What I mean is that pushing feminine and masculine to the extreme and saying that women are ONLY feminine if they wear skirts is wrong. ... Neutral where skirts done equate to femininity by default and pants don't equate to masculinity. Where people are just people regardless of what they wear.

I saw no way to interpret your statement about stereotypical feminine presentation as meaning anything but the rather hyper femme way some of us present as being a throwback to the bad old days of repression of women. If this isn't what you meant, then I apologize, but it is a very, very, very commonly expressed sentiment here and in many other places.

A lot of us who are trans take a lot of crap for being "too feminine." I had a therapist (straight cis woman), observe to me recently that she saw all these other cis women who kept themselves rather meticulously feminine as little better than prostitutes because they looked the way they did to get and keep their wealthy husbands. It told me a lot about where I stood, in her opinion.

Clothing says something about you. There is a language associated with it, and often concepts about our identity are conveyed through it. I think stripping gender from it is exactly the WRONG thing to do. It is like stripping the meaning from words, so that nobody is offended because no one really knows what you mean, since nothing has a meaning in the first place.

I think it would be far better for Luca to be able to wear a skirt not because it's become this gender neutral garment, along with most others that don't directly interface to our anatomy, but rather because she is trying to express a fundamental truth about her identity, that she is male, but with a feminine side. In other words, she should be able to be authentically who she is, without judgement, not because clothes don't matter, but rather because our society accepts people as they truly are.

kimdl93

03-11-2015, 06:52 AM

Ever play that group game where you write something down, then whisper it to the person next to you. The message passes orally from one person to another till everyone has heard and repeated it. And, invariably the message has changed immensely by the time it reaches the last person. So it seems to be with discussions.

That's not all bad. The free for all nature may reveal some unexpected nuances. At the same time, it's inevitable that each of us will read things into the original post that reflect our peculiar interests, concerns and biases. So for some clothing are cues to the being they wish to be seen as. For others, clothing is sexually charged. So the discussion can veer off in either direction, depending on the perspective of the commenter.

So, my slant tends towards gender identity. In my ideal world, anyone can be accepted at where they personally aspire to be on the gender spectrum. But for me, whether I'm wearing jeans, linen shorts, slacks or a skirt, I want to be be perceived and accepted as a woman.

As Nicole said some posts back, there are for want of other terms, gender markers...physical attributes...that we are hard wired to associate with gender. For people like me, the challenge is to mask those that say male, while accentuating those that say female. I don't see this as perpetuating a stereotype. Now, if One was into dressing as a sexual thing, One might make choices that do express a sexualized representation of femininity. Although that expression may be either private or, I suppose shared with people of similar interests, it does perpetuate some sexual stereotyping.

But honestly, in the grand order of things, the choices made by transgender people, by proportion at least, have a negligible impact on societies representations of women when you compare our impact with the representation of women advertising, movies, even news programs.

Greenie

03-11-2015, 07:54 AM

You see and I think since I have not grown up with the need to have a gender identity other than my own, there is no way that my opinion on the matter will match that of Paula or kims. Which is totally fine for me. You all see your gender identity, and the expression of it, something that is integral to you being who you are. Maybe because it was repressed for so long. This is a pain or a feeling that I will never experience.

That's why I love asking these questions. We all come from a different place in life, gg, cd, ts. We all have different wants and needs. That to me is so interesting. I understand how both of you feel, but fundamentally for someone who has never struggled to find or maintain the perfect gender identity, I find gender and the societal pressures of it, to be a burden. Possibly because to to my gender, I am treated poorly at work, I do make less than men, and I am constantly reminded on this forum by cders who are not as pleasant as the most of you, that the fact I wear pants makes me "less" of something. While the illusion of femininity is not important to me, they key factor is the idea of being "less" of anything, than anyone else.

Due to my life experiences, and the fact I was born with a gender and identity that "matched" the body I was given. I never really have had to struggle with my identity. I am sure I take advantage of all that you work so hard for every day.

It wasn't until becoming a so of a cder that I realized how I feel about gender in society as a whole. I would like to be able to dress how I please, and be just a person. Female is not an identity marker that is important to me, it's something that just is. But I assure you if I was born male, the way my brain works and how I feel about gender and who I am, might closely be aligned with your Philosophy on the matter.

P.s. I am on a cell phone so sorry for any autocorrects. :)

mykell

03-11-2015, 07:55 AM

hi greenie/ KAE

1. Do you think the longer you identify as a cross-dresser, the more respect you gain for women?

1) i will answer yes here, not that i treated women poorly or disrespected them but have in fact seen how much harder it is too maintain the regiment they endure to be all they can be, let me define this, (when my dressing at home consists of throwing on some things to sit around in front of the computer relaxed no makeup or dressed to perfection, with maybe a selfie photo shoot to share here to hown my skills or to just share my look, easy...but a GG is shuffling back and forth to work daily, errands, perhaps little ones to care for, societal pressures to conform too, being judged by men and women daily however they are dressed.) i admire and adore how they can still find time to achieve a positive and classy look....sometimes making it look soo easy. the more i learn the more i appreciate....

2. Cross Dressers often get put in situations that GG's have been in their entire lives ( concern for safety, being out at night, feeling like something bad is going to happen to you because the way you dressed) Do you think that being a CDer allows you to better understand the fears society has placed on women for their entire lives?
2) i will say no to this one, i have always had and felt that need for they're safety all my life and while i am a CD i never left the safety of my home as of this time, i always worry for safety for all folks for we still have hostile and violent people among us who will prey on those they assume are weak and dont share our respect for life.
i will say that the odds are not in favor of women as you presented it.
also i dont feel that society has as much to play in that scenario as much as pure reality for fact that their will always be thugs that will try to skirt the rules and take advantage when they get the chance to. so not a pressure from society but just due diligence for safety.

3. Do you think that since you are a CDer that you perpetuate gender stereotypes due to the societal definition of "feminine" or are you helping to break the mold and push society in a more gender neutral direction?

3) for this i will admit maybe, while i do wear 6in heels i feel that in proportion to a shorter GG in 4in shoe the proportion will be the same in look, my choice in clothes are borderline, i strive to be classy, tops and skirts, recently have an affection for jeans, know my reality to be public i cant wear my heels and toned down outfits will help with my presentation but i still find that i like more expensive and fashionable looks...even though they are not in budget....

this being said i do shop for myself and have even tried on clothes in shops and believe these little routines will eventually lead to a greater acceptance as it opens folks up to the reality we are here and we are not going anywhere but forward, whatever the reaction when we are seen the inevitability will be a discussion, hoping that they become more positive as time goes on....hoping that leads to a more gender neutral perspective for folks !

wishing continued safety for everyone !! hope this is what you were looking for in answers....

Nadine Spirit

03-11-2015, 09:37 AM

Hi Greenie. Interesting post.

#1 - No. I have long respected women. It has given me more insight into silly little things like what an art form applying makeup is, why sometimes I will observe my wife put on and take off several variations of an outfit, how important it is to have the right shoes for the outfit and occasion. But those are such irrelevant things in the bigger picture of what it means to be a woman. And while I am on that topic, just because I on occasion dress as a woman, it does not mean that I really have any idea what it is like to have lived life as a woman.

#2 - Possibly, but maybe not in how you are describing it. I had fears about going out before I ever did. I had fears about what society would do to me. Now after about ten years of getting out and about, I realize that the fears were only in my head. But... what was I afraid of? Being chased down with torches and pitchforks and being burned at the steak! Maybe not literally, but at least in some way.

Our society is a weird one. I think there are many myths out there. I think it is a myth that all women grow up fearful and all men grow up fearless. I think that we as human beings need to understand that bad things can happen. Do we all need to live lives being in fear of the unknown, no, but we should also realize that being cautious and mindful is helpful in remaining safe.

#3 - I get out there and do me. And me is normally a mix of both the masculine and the feminine. While some may view things I do as perpetuating stereotypes, I don't think overall that is what I do.

As far as gender non-conforming goes, that is primarily how I identify. I also cross dress fully on occasion. I do both. That btw, is why I consider myself to be transgender.

Michelle789

03-11-2015, 12:10 PM

I don't think that forcing society into a gender neutral manner of clothing is the way to go. It would be better to keep garments masculine and feminine, but permit men to wear feminine garments without fear or reprecussions, and the same thing for women to be able to wear masculine garments. Same thing goes for masculine and feminine behaviors too.

giuseppina

03-11-2015, 12:16 PM

...1. Do you think the longer you identify as a cross-dresser, the more respect you gain for women?

I don't think that crossdressing necessarily increases respect or empathy for the other gender (both M2F and F2M). I've had more than a few involuntary and gratuitous experiences educating me about how genetic women feel about unwanted sexual comments from people of both sexes while dressed male.

2. Cross Dressers often get put in situations that GG's have been in their entire lives ( concern for safety, being out at night, feeling like something bad is going to happen to you because the way you dressed) Do you think that being a CDer allows you to better understand the fears society has placed on women for their entire lives?

Maybe sufficient, but not necessary. Some of us who have been bullied as children and adults are conditioned to feel this way because these events have happened. In my case, it hasn't depended on clothing because I have never been out wearing anything visible that society, in general, says is for women only.

3. Do you think that since you are a CDer that you perpetuate gender stereotypes due to the societal definition of "feminine" or are you helping to break the mold and push society in a more gender neutral direction?

One of my pet peeves is stereotyping. If I feel safe in doing so, I will say something putting the stereotyper in their place, otherwise I keep my mouth shut.

Greenie

03-11-2015, 12:34 PM

Michelle789, if you can go back and read post, 41 I believe. I say that was not my intent. ;) I also explain my feelings about gender a couple posts after that! But alas as kim says, people will read their own bias I to anything, and as forums and threads do, they will merge and change. Just making clear I don't want to force everyone I to gender neutral clothes. So you and I actually agree. Please go and read my comments there so you can see as such!

JayeLefaye

03-11-2015, 01:00 PM

Hi Greenie,

First off, thanks for hanging in there/here with us for so long! Glad to see you a tad more active!

I'll do my best, although I had to write it all out in "word" and then cut & paste. Hope it works.

Do you think the longer you identify as a cross-dresser, the more respect you gain for women?

I’m not quite sure that “respect” is the right word. As others have pointed out, respect is something that has to be earned on an individual basis; unless your first name is Aretha and your last name is Franklin, in which case it can be demanded!

But if you were to include the terms “empathy” and “appreciation”, then I would have to give a longer answer.

The short answer would be “No more than if I weren’t a CD”. The reason for this, is that I seem to have always been empathetic. Watching my older sister make her way through an extremely male-dominated field, starting in the early 70’s when she was only 21, taught me most of what I needed to know regarding what it takes/took to be a woman in regards to the workplace.

Reading Marilyn French’s “The Women’s Room”, twice(and neither one as a class assignment)...:-)…Was a huge eye-opener for my 25 year old self. It’s a book that I can’t recommend enough if anyone wants to turn an eye toward history to see just how far we’ve come...And my learning continues...

As for “appreciation”, well, having watched a handful of S.O’s (lessee…there have been an office worker, a high school teacher, an architect, a landscaper, and a therapist)over the years as they got ready to face the day taught me appreciation of the “daily beauty/maintenance routine”, and also made me extremely thankful that I’m a guy, and as such, can throw on a hat and pair of sunglasses and hit the door.

Cross Dressers often get put in situations that GG's have been in their entire lives ( concern for safety, being out at night, feeling like something bad is going to happen to you because the way you dressed) Do you think that being a CDer allows you to better understand the fears society has placed on women for their entire lives?

My first quick answer to this was going to be a “no”, because even in lumberjack mode, I always have my keys out and ready before I get to the car. I also never use parking garages, perhaps as the result of watching too many movies where nothing good EVER happens in a parking garage!!! But after thinking about it a bit, I have to say “yes”. I came to my “yes” because I realize that when I’m out and about en femme, I often find myself walking with a purpose, as opposed to sauntering(unless I’m in a store and going through the racks). I think this comes down to feeling safer as a “moving target”, and with dressing, also comes a heightened awareness of my surroundings. So, yes, definitely! Being out with one or more other folks alleviates a lot of the innate fear.

Do you think that since you are a CDer that you perpetuate gender stereotypes due to the societal definition of "feminine" or are you helping to break the mold and push society in a more gender neutral direction?

Hmmm….This one is difficult, so I’ll just ramble and hope that I eventually stumble upon an actual “point”. The thing that makes this a particularly tricky question, is that it almost implies that ANY GG who goes out wearing a skirt/dress, with make-up and accessories etc. is ALSO perpetuating a strereotype. And I don’t think that that is what your question is aimed at, so I’ll move past that aspect.

If I had been out & about when I was in my 20’s, I’d probably be answering yes, and would have gone out almost exclusively in miniskirts and vertigo inducing heels . But I was a closet dresser until I hit my early 50’s. My first excursions out were all in skirts and low heels. I also wore a lot of pink, which in retrospect, I think, was because I was going through an escalated “fashion phase” that most GGs get to experience over the course of their adolescence.

For the last year though, my dressing has become much more age-appropriate. I still prefer skirts, but they’re just not as practical for day to day errand runnings. But the thing with skirts/dresses, that I think a lot of GGs don’t quite understand, is the feeling of freedom and exhilaration of the “first time”. I mean, oh my!!! To stand on a street corner, in front of God and everyone, chatting with another CDer while wearing a skirt! To feel the breeze on my thighs! To not have to worry if my fly was down. To do a slight twirl just so that I could feel the fabric sway! Not to mention the feeling of being a bit of an outlaw, breaking societies expectations/rules, without actually doing anyone any harm!

It’s hard to describe how it feels to have been denied, for 50 years, the right to do something as simple as wearing a skirt in public, and then finally getting up the courage to say “screw ‘em”!!

But at this stage of my life, and I hope it continues, I like to think of myself as: “" … helping to break the mold and push society in a more gender neutral direction”? Every generation ought to hope for the best for those who follow. I believe that going out, nicely decked out(whether in a skirt or slacks) but not expecting to pass upon close inspection, is my little contribution to those who come next. I interact, am friendly and courteous, and always answer any question asked, which mostly center around which store I bought an item at(because I have excellent taste)...:-)

As for “gender neutral”, I’m glad you clarified with:

“Neutral where skirts don't equate to femininity by default and pants don't equate to masculinity. Where people are just people regardless of what they wear.
I think that would be utopia. Luca wearing a skirt in public, without trying to pass and no one gives a damn. Sounds Nice to me. “

Nice? Dayum, that would be heaven...or as you say, utopia!!!! I want to be able to go out wearing whatever I please, depending on my mood, and sometimes, I just want to feel pretty:-)

Thanks for asking, and please give yourself and Luca a big ol' hug for me!!!

Jaye

Lorileah

03-11-2015, 01:34 PM

Somewhere along the lines, my idea of SOCIALLY gender nuetrul got turned into forcing everyone into the same clothes!!!
yeah...but threads do that a lot here. Not that I have ever done it myself:whistling:

I saw no way to interpret your statement about stereotypical feminine presentation as meaning anything but the rather hyper femme way some of us present as being a throwback to the bad old days of repression of women. I think people in "our" situation do tend to see that type of question in that manner Paula. We have had to "live" through being in the public eye and we get hit from all sides. The CD's don't usually say anything to me about how I dress (except to compliment) but other TSs seem to think I should be them...wear what they wear and this same critique comes from the GG side on occasion. Typically
You really should wear jeans (slacks) instead of dresses and skirts. You will fit in better or
you know your skirts are too short, no woman your age (my age? like I really CARE how old I am?) would ever wear that. and similar veins even having GGs offer to show me how to dress "appropriately". And I am conservative usually, it is just that I prefer dresses and skirts when the weather allows it.

But like you I read the question in how I view CDs on occasion and how "I" think they are doing a disservice to the T community and the GG community with the exaggerated looks. I often don't like the look but I realize that from a different angle I will get the same from other people (see above). I went through the overly sexual look in my path. I have done that looking for something I "thought" I was supposed to have or how I was "supposed" to be (we all know that Tgs are just looking for sex right?). So I am not surprised that those who have been in the public eye read that as overly exaggerated dressing.

I think Greenie has cleared up her meaning though :)