Male privilege and female privilege, and CDing(western world).

[Alice Torn]

I won't say much, but both have privilege in different ways. You who go out , do you sometimes get them confused, or combined, or guessing? This is about how you are treated as a woman, as opposed to how you are treated as a man. Not about societal so called "privilege."

[FrancineS]

All three, most straight men can't tell. Most GG will detect due to my height ( 5/11 ,6/2 with modest heel). Others don't really pay attention. I keep speaking to a minimum, and use woman's bathroom. So sure there are privileges but it seems in the 21 cent most are open minded. Cross dressing has become very accepted. Most of you remember the 80-90's. Not accepted behavior but change is good.

[flatlander_48]

Privilege comes out in different ways. If I were to generalize, I would say that men tend to act in ways that expect privilege. Women tend to have privilege offered to them.

[Kate Simmons]

Nope, I just enjoy both of them in either/or mode Hon. :battingeyelashes::)

[Persephone]

"Privilege" is the latest BS. It is a tool purposfully designed to create more racial, sexual, etc. angst and to allow the elite handlers to better manage their sheep. Anyoine who falls for it is simply a fool.

Hugs,
Persephone.

[flatlander_48]

Sorry. That is just not the reality. Just because you are oblivious to something does not mean that it doesn't exist.

DeeAnn

[Nadine Spirit]

This tends to be a very emotionally charged topic.

Personally I see that both genders tend to get privileges that the other is denied.

If you really want to talk about privileges, then lets talk about all of the privileges that good looking people get. They get lots of privileges that homely folk don't get. Even babies will smile when shown a classically good looking person and frown or turn away or cry when shown not so good looking people. The study I saw was talking about the golden ratio and the effects on your perception. So I think we need to be concerned about people who get more privileges in this world because they have more iterations of the golden ratio in their features!

[ChristinaK]

I have had much more attention, such as "hello ma'am." Men opening doors. More "can I help you" from men SA's. It's kind of funny. It takes getting used to.

[Confucius]

Gender privilege is heavily perspective dependent.

Socially we are told that the world provides males with greater privileges. This may be more obvious in Muslim countries, but the same privileges are available in western cultures. Men have historically been given greater career opportunities, travel opportunities and less tied down by housekeeping and child rearing. Men have also been given a free pass sexually, while females were expected to remain chaste. With many of these "privileges western cultures have made efforts to give females equal "rights".

Personally, I can recall that as a small child, I experienced many situations where young girls seemed to have all the privileges. I grew up thinking that all parents preferred daughters over sons. Boys were always getting into trouble, while girls were considered nicer, smarter, more mature. Girls were given shiny and pretty clothes and things. Girls could use more colors, paint their nails, and play dress up. Girls were praised for their appearance. If I showed interested in anything remotely cute or pretty, I would always be told, "that's for girls". As a young child it was obvious to me that girls had it better in life, and if I was born a girl then my mother would love me more.

I had absolutely no concept of "male privilege" as a small child, and I believe that perspective did contribute to becoming a crossdresser.

[Alice Torn]

Persephone, I totally agree. It is a big generalization, one more put on us. It is an inividual thing, as each person is different, due to upbringing, experiences, good and bad. We are all imperfect, and have our good days and bad days, moods, diet problems, temperament weaknesses, good nights, bad nights.

Confucious, Amen to what you shared. My sister was the oldest, and followed by three sons, and she was spoiled, while we were worked to near death. I always felt inferior to girls. I surely never, ever , felt any kind of male privilege, because I was scared of pretty girls, did lowly dirty jobs, was rejected by pretty girls. As one poster said, nice looking people, of either sex, get treated nicer, , unless someone is jealous. Maybe i did not word my thread very well. I really should have asked it you are treated with more privilege as a woman or a man, when out. Doing good work brings privilege sometimes.

[flatlander_48]

OK, for those of us with wives or daughters, ask how they are treated at car dealerships and repair shops, assuming they are not regular customers. Or, how does it go with real estate people? The tendancy is to talk about furnaces and plumbing with the husband and drapes and colors with the wife. It is a predisposition to do that before an indication of interest is expressed.

Anywhere this predisposition or deference takes place as a function of gender is a result of the thought process behind privilege.

[Beverley Sims]

Menand women seem to recognise you differently.
Men see a dress and therefore you are treated as a woman.

Women are nearly as observant as thirteen year olds.

They survey you for reactions and you are more likely to be read.

[justmetoo]

I agree with Flatlander. I listen to what my female friends and relations say about how they get treated in various situations.

[Eryn]

We all have experience both in having privilege and in being subject to privilege. How we handle it is up to the individual, not his or her gender.

In the US, and most Western nations, the only privilege I can think of that men have enjoyed exclusively is conscription.

[Kate T]

Look up "unconscious gender bias"

WMP (White male privilege) is still well and truly dominant in developed western society at least in respect to many quality of life and social justice indicators. It's MUCH better than it was, BUT there is still a long way to go.

[Violetgray]

"Privilege" is the latest BS. It is a tool purposfully designed to create more racial, sexual, etc. angst and to allow the elite handlers to better manage their sheep. Anyoine who falls for it is simply a fool.

Hugs,
Persephone.


Incorrect. Privilege is a thing. A situational thing, but still a thing.

I've heard a really good definition for the concept of privilege in its modern context: Privilege is when you don't have to think about certain things.

For example, as Violet I've been followed home by men, twice. Both were making sexual advances and one of them tried to push his way through my door. It never even occurred to me that it might happen in boy mode. It can be a hard pill to swallow when people tell you you have it easy compared to someone else, but unless you're a gay overweight transgender disabled person of color with an obscure religion and political affiliation, chances are you have it easier than some people in some situations.

[Persephone]

OK, for those of us with wives or daughters, ask how they are treated at car dealerships and repair shops, assuming they are not regular customers. Or, how does it go with real estate people? The tendancy is to talk about furnaces and plumbing with the husband and drapes and colors with the wife. It is a predisposition to do that before an indication of interest is expressed.

I too have always heard that, Flat, but I've had multiple opportunities to get cars serviced and to look at properties with real estate agents both as a male and as a female and I have not yet encountered a single instance when I felt I was being treated differently as a man or as a woman.

And lest you go for the "But you live in Southern California" excuse, I've met with real estate agents and toured properties as both a man and as a woman in other states, including Texas and Utah.

I'm sure there are cases where it definutely does happen. But I believe, based upon experience, that many more instances are expected or percieved as bias, discrimination, or difference where none may have existed.

Persephone .

[PaulaQ]

I'm glad you haven't experienced this yet, Persephone, but it really does exist. A trivial example - I went to Fry's the other day, with my boyfriend in tow. In the old days, the salespeople talked to me. This time, they talked to my boyfriend. We showed up to the salesman together - he talked about what I was trying to buy with my boyfriend, who pointed at me, and said "talk to her - she's the computer engineer." Which obviously surprised the crap out of the salesman (you could just read it on his face). It was lucky for him that my boyfriend said that - trying to talk to my boyfriend about computer components is a lot like trying to teach a dog a card trick - you are both going to end the experience really frustrated!

In general, I've noticed that sales people tend to start talking with the guy. I mean this depends on the situation, but in general, they assume I'm completely brainless. I am able to quickly disabuse them of this, fortunately, but I can see how this would be frustrating if you'd had to deal with it your entire life. Especially if whatever guy you were with wasn't tactful enough to not take over the situation - although again, this just demonstrates the point. I got the salesman's attention because my boyfriend passed him on to me. If he'd tried to conduct the transaction, god only knows what I'd have left there with.

When we go to a restaurant, he gets handed the check.

I get talked over in meetings more often now. These are all fairly minor things - others experience this in more significant ways.

You can be a high power executive, transition, and instantly become unemployable. I know a LOT of women who experience this. They didn't instantly forget how to do their jobs. But many of them can't get the same level of job they used to have pre-transition.

Look, all this stuff isn't as severe as it used to be, but it's still a thing, and it's still prevalent and fairly powerful.

[Marcelle]

Interesting topic Alice and one I think is definitely a charged topic. I think we can all agree that to be a white male is a bit easier than being some other combination of human existence. Don't get me wrong I am not saying that all white men have it "easy peasy lemon squeezy" as many do not. I think this is where social economic status and as Nadine pointed out "good looking genetics" widens the playing field between men and the amount of privileged they get.

I had an interesting encounter at our family Veterinarian with my wife. Our Vet is a woman and when my wife and I take one of our pets into the examination room she (the Vet) will only talk to my wife when it comes to making decisions while I am marginalized. I have to admit, it threw me a bit as I as much concerned about the health of our pets as my wife but yet I may as well not have been in the room. I mentioned it to my wife and she said she noticed it to but figured it was because the Vet was a woman and she (my wife) was a woman or perhaps she thought by virtue of being a woman she (my wife) was seen as more empathetic. The funny thing was my wife added "Now you know how I feel when salesmen speak around me like I am not even there when we go out together"

So in keeping with that, I did pay more attention when we were out shopping for things with a technical bent (e.g., computers, electronics) and she was right. I am almost always deferred to as the subject matter expert and while the SA (mainly men) might make eye contact with my wife, it is cursory and always returns to me for the sale.

Now do I see a difference in how I am treated when presenting as a woman? That is a hard call. I don't notice any condescension on the part of others . . . "She is just a woman so I need to make things simple" but then again, they know I am not a woman so I don't think we would experience the same type of interaction a GG would. Where our privilege as men might end is when someone who does not agree with our lifestyle minimalizes our existence.

Hugs

Isha

[pamela7]

privilege works both ways in my world, as i've never (to my awareness) treated anyone differently based on gender or race or other preferences or criminal past, I rarely notice it as I'm not sensitive to it as a problem for me. However, I can recall being the single white minority in a sports team and being astonished at the racism of my colleagues. I have seen the car mechanic thing, and also have got my garage used to talking to welshgirl about the car. When I go shopping with her, or the kids, I make the assistant realise who the shopping is for, and then their focus is on the right person. Going into the best fabric/sewing shop around yes I'm the only guy and yet i've not felt treated differently to welshgirl.

Violet names the key privilege I've been unaware of until CD-ing - the privilege of not being sexually stalked. This is something we as society need to sort out.

[sometimes_miss]

I think the concept of 'privileged' was one thing that the affirmative action movement was created to address, to change the way minorities were being treated in the U.S.. But it got sidetracked; the group that has benefited most from affirmative action is affluent white women (who, technically, are the MAJORITY, how about that!). So at this point, females are legally allowed to be privileged in ways that men aren't legally allowed to be. Now how privileged is that!

[Sammy777]

"Privilege" is the latest BS. Anyoine who falls for it is simply a fool.




Rule #1 of Male Privilege:

Deny that Male Privilege exists.

[CountessVF]

Girls were praised for their appearance. If I showed interested in anything remotely cute or pretty, I would always be told, "that's for girls". As a young child it was obvious to me that girls had it better in life, and if I was born a girl then my mother would love me more.

This was fascinating. Got me wondering if it isn't a double edge. At one point and perspective it's about permission. What girls were allowed to do and wear.

I'd wager that adult GG tire of the monotony of it and feel confined by what's expected in terms of how they look.

But I know my words in discussions have been given greater weight because of the thing between my legs. That's a privilege. I have got and kept jobs because of it, maybe not directly because they didn't like women. But I worked faster and harder because I was naturally stronger.

[VeronicaMoonlit]

"Privilege" is the latest BS. It is a tool purposfully designed to create more racial, sexual, etc. angst and to allow the elite handlers to better manage their sheep. Anyoine who falls for it is simply a fool.

Hugs,
Persephone.

What, the pink fog crossdresser turned fast-track transsexual who used every bit of magic-castle-membership-owning boy-mode privilege to fast track and push that transition past any barriers (including the wife), denies privilege exists? Oh no you didn't. But no...you made all that money with your doctorate in boymode and who gives a damn about the little people. All that matters is your RV, fancy events, and how much money is in your wallet. You're the epitome of "retired crossdresser transitioning and keeping as much boymode privilege as I can" kind of transsexual. Heck, the last I checked, you were still keeping boymode around....for the money, even though you've changed your name and everything. For example:


(Everything I describe here was, of course, en femne except where I specifically mention being in male mode).

Valentine's Day my son and his GF decided it would be fun to spend the day out on the range. Since I had some of the tools they wanted they invited me along as well. This was kind of a milestone for me since it would be the first time I would be filling out the necessary permits, waivers, and disclaimers with my legal female name. We spent several hours out there, up in the Angeles mountains, and had a great time.

Sunday my spouse returned home from a Caribbean cruise she'd been on, I picked her up at the airport (in male mode) and we mostly veggied out.

And do I really need to find that post where you went on a movie date with a guy and then complained that he didn't spend money on you? When it comes to being an overprivileged jerk, you're WORSE than Kathryn Martin, and that's saying something.


Incorrect. Privilege is a thing. A situational thing, but still a thing.

I've heard a really good definition for the concept of privilege in its modern context: Privilege is when you don't have to think about certain things.

I happen to like John Scalzi's explanation that "white male is easy mode in the game of life": http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/


It can be a hard pill to swallow when people tell you you have it easy compared to someone else, but unless you're a gay overweight transgender disabled person of color with an obscure religion and political affiliation, chances are you have it easier than some people in some situations.

Damn right.


But I believe, based upon experience, that many more instances are expected or percieved as bias, discrimination, or difference where none may have existed.

Persephone .




Rule #1 of Male Privilege:

Deny that Male Privilege exists.


Rule #2 is: Close their ears when someone who isn't an upper-class white male tells them about their experiences which SHOW that privilege exists.

Veronica

[Nadine Spirit]

As I assumed, the OPs original point is being tossed aside to instead discuss if (white) male privilege exists. I realize though I never did answer the original question. So... No, I don't ever get the two mixed up.

So to the side discussion...

I am not denying I have received certain benefits from being a male. But I know my wife has received benefits from being a female. For example:
Whenever we have gone to the docotrs together, I have been consistently denied entrance to the examine room when it is her appointment, while she has consistently been asked to come into my room during my appointments. Small thing? Not to me.
How about when she broke her leg and she explained how she did it while hunting. And they consistently asked her for the real story. And they got her by herself and very kindly, and quietly, asked her for the real story, how it really happened?

Are these cases of my obvious male privilege? No these are cases of me being accused of something, because I am male. Clearly I am loosing something because I am male.

My only point being... Everyone gets some privileges that some others don't.

[flatlander_48]

I too have always heard that, Flat, but I've had multiple opportunities to get cars serviced and to look at properties with real estate agents both as a male and as a female and I have not yet encountered a single instance when I felt I was being treated differently as a man or as a woman.

And lest you go for the "But you live in Southern California" excuse, I've met with real estate agents and toured properties as both a man and as a woman in other states, including Texas and Utah.

I'm sure there are cases where it definutely does happen. But I believe, based upon experience, that many more instances are expected or percieved as bias, discrimination, or difference where none may have existed.

Persephone .

You realize that you are a SOLITARY data point out of 315,000,000 people?

So, if I told you that I have personally seen sexist (male privilege), racism, ageism, homophobia, et al, you would tell me that there was none? There's a WHOLE LOT of people who would disagree with that based specifically on their personal experience.

DeeAnn

[Alice Torn]

As the original poster, I said nothing about race, and i would like this to stop now! Thank you friends for your sharing your pain, or experience in that area, but i meant only for the topic of how you are perceived and treated, as a woman, compared to as a male. It was about how you are treated, when you are out as a woman, and how you are treated as a man. No race in this, friends. I apologize that i was not clear. That is for another forum. Again, i am sorry is was not clearer in my OP.

[flatlander_48]

Well, the question is this:

How can I, as a Black male crossdresser, separate the responses I get by gender from race? If I walk up to someone and there's a 15 second delay in their acknowledgement of me, it usually isn't obvious what the reason is.

Anyway, in response to your request, things went off the rails at Post #5.

But, the larger issue this. You can define the concept of privilege in terms of many different kinds of discrimination. Denying that they exist or refusing to talk about them INSURES that those concepts will continue. The analogy is if you have a leak in the roof of your house, do you expect it to stop without intervention? That is, of course, excluding Divine Intervention. Every time it rains, it will leak.

In many ways, the coercion that society exercises on males and females (in very different ways) does not serve us well. The story about the veterinarian was interesting because it goes against a basic truth. Men feel things just as deeply as women, but we've been taught to not show it. The flip side is the story about the electronics salesman. Women are as competent as men at just about any job you can think of (Sumo Wrestlers aside!), yet the prevailing opinions are just the opposite. It is interesting to note that companies with significant numbers of women and minorities in leadership positions tend to outperform their peers in their industries. This is statistical fact.

A.T., the fact is that the concept of Privilege is woven into the fabric of our society. It has been with us since people began to walk upright. However, we do have the power to fix it and change the course of society.

DeeAnn

[Alice Torn]

If one is honest, the hard plain truth, is that all down through the thousands of years of history, with countless societies, there were inequities, and "privileged" ruling elites, and so much worse. As difficult as things are, yet today, "we have come a long way , baby", compared to the brutalities of antiquity, and we forget how bad things were in history. As long as humans are here, we have imperfect societies. We each, as INDIVIDUALS make the world a better place.

[Persephone]

And do I really need to find that post where you went on a movie date with a guy...

[Sigh] I guess I'm being stalked.

Persephone.

[Katey888]

From one privileged to know when a thread has diverted enough from its original intent, and with system privileges bestowed upon me by my status here... This thread is closed.

(And I guess that answers the question for those who believe privilege is BS... :bringiton:)

Katey
Moderator